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This discussion was created from comments split from: Can't we just shoot Madran?.
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This is why we need a Terran faction.
Long live the Empire!
According to a live stream, Kael said the episode where you play the Tzenkethi, it made a lot of players feel.....bad.
Hence why no Terran faction, or other evil groups.
As for the question asked, Starefleet does not kill, only when they have to.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Well I hope people feel bad after that episode, that was clearly one of the goals. The problem I had with the episode was that it went past presenting the Tzenkethi as doing something arguably necessary and understandable for fighting a major threat to the galaxy to totally evil villains. Even that morally conficted traitor Tzenkethi didn't have the kind of moral fiber to really make a stand against the admiral. It was a major writing fail in what was otherwise an interesting story where arguably both sides were the good guys.
Of course it is also sad that people seem unable to handle feeling bad, and that is used as a justification to deny exploring more exotic themes.
It's easy to pass uncalled xenophobia and war crimes as necessary for the greater good and easy to fool people into doing so when you have power and other sides refuse to accept your cultural uprising as an excuse to commit those crimes.
During (and before) the Tzenkethi arc, we're led to believe they have noble goals but horrific actions and then it turns out that while many of the Tzenkethi do believe so, in the end, they were nothing but useful racist idiots for the disguised Female Changeling, easily tricked into trying to wipe out a threat she created by her own actions and remove the evidence because it was endangering her control over her subjects, no matter what the collateral damage would end up to be.
Also, to Parr's credit, even if the Admiral threatened to cull off her entire bloodline if she tried to question his authority again, she still had her limits to blind loyalty and still chose to do the right thing, even knowing and acknowledging doing so would make her a pariah.
That's definitely a stretch. I don't think the episodes came even close to addressing anything like that. They did much more to suggest that A.) admiral whatshisname was a madman and B.) Tzenkethi society/species may be far too anti-individualist, anti-dissent to allow for any but a select few to actually stand up against the excesses of a madman.
If that isn't exotic to you then I'm very concerned. Regardless that is also a mischaracterization of it, as murder is for power there.
In any case this is ostensibly a science fiction game. The whole premise of Sci-fi is trying to imagine some different truth of a universe and how that effects society and people. How might the advent of warp drive and limitless power affect society? That is Star Trek at its core.
So the question begs to be asked, just how is it that MU earth became a thing? How does it persist? How did Spock's reforms change things? How did it manage to reassert itself with so many resentful populations? What is it about that universe and its people that makes it so inverted to the prime universe? Also, why are these two universes so well connected when there are infinite others? Or what makes the prime universe so resistant to conquest?
To circle back, if we presume that people get murdered for fun in the MU, how can it possibly survive? Random murder would necessitate self-preservation actions for everyone else who witnesses it and the obvious population problems that would happen because of it. So how could it even work?
And what does it say about humanity? Is the MU a universe so believable that it could be humanities fate if not for one little swap of history? Or do these people necessarily think fundamentally differently, with perhaps fundamental differences in the fabric of their universe?
I'd say its a place that is foundationally based on some exotic concepts that are very foreign to the prime universe. That is why its so intriguing to see a mirror image where everything is backwards. It's familiar yet utterly foreign at the same time.
"During the June 14th, 2018 edition of Ten Forward Weekly, the developers stated that Tzen-Tarrak had been replaced by the Female Changeling a while before the Tzenkethi Crusade started."
It was always about getting rid of the Hur'q for her own personal gains because it was becoming harder and harder for her to hide the truth (like when she outright said in the mission that she got several Founders killed because they were getting too close to uncovering her crimes). The Tzenkethi's culture and history with the members of the Alliance were just a great way to achieve that goal: convince the Autarch who is the supreme leader of the Coalition by giving an half-truth while also conveniently not telling other factions and you have the perfect scapegoat while she's on the perfect position (Fleet Admiral) to get rid of Tzenkethi officers with a conscience by appealing to nationalism, disguised as "patriotism", and denouncing them as traitors to their race.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
As for why Klingons don't just kill Madran, that's pretty easily answered too. It might annoy the Ferengi Alliance. Even the High Council is vulnerable to attacks on the ol' bank account.
I don't see why it couldn't work. MU is just a extreme version of the civilisations that exist in our own history. Although I don't think everyone in the Empire would be killing officers everyday without getting caught and being executed themselves.
Look at Roddenberry's vision of the future. His idea of society in 50-100 years would be a Federation that is so perfect and happy. The Federation is pretty cartoonish. A perfect friction less alliance of hundreds of alien species seems way too optimistic.
Cartoonishly evil has the same problem too. I like it better when not all MU characters are necessarily 'evil' for evil sake but rather hardened because the universe is a cold and unforgiving place just as life can be and they make do with bad situation in order to survive.
I think what foxrockssocks means is that people rather experience it from the Terrans perspective rather than read about it from multiple 'surprise mechanic' lock boxes or STO wiki. Although I don't think Cryptic would be capable of doing a satisfying story for them without chickening out in favour of turning them into another "I realise I am bad person and must change" trope and make them into another feddie bear 2.0 that joins the Alliance. I'd imagine it be even poorer version of what EA did to Star Wars EA's Battlefront 2 main Imperial protagonist. Aka another generic Rebel/Resistance bore fest tale.
Gideon Hask was the real 'hero' of the Galactic Empire (Inferno Squad), but EA/Dice/Disney didn't have the balls to do another faction perspective even if it was a fictional one.
It is not always interesting to play a perfect character who's TRIBBLE is so bright that the heavens themselves shine from it. Sometimes playing the 'bad' guy is refreshing.
"When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway
#Support Mirror Universe I.S.S. Prefixes
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Many apologises for the data being disorganised... If you can overlook such drivel you can agree that the federation is indeed as pointed out a cartoonish optimistic representation of what humanity will become in only a few centuries (including TOS). DS9 is whole different thing entirely. DS9 is the polar opposite of Gene Roddenberry's philosophy and vision of the future and the federation. It certainly wasn't what he imagined for his utopian future and he never saw starfleet as being a military either.
"When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway
#Support Mirror Universe I.S.S. Prefixes
I am happy with a cartoonishly evil villain as well. As I pointed out in my original post both are extreme opposites and that is fine, I only wanted to mention I like when characters have all humane qualities not just the nice ones (DS9 is perfect example of this in both universes.)
I'd rather play Warhammer 40k for a realistic representation of terrans in space than Star craft. I like the Roman/British Empire feel they have instead of the space cowboys in SC.
"When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway
#Support Mirror Universe I.S.S. Prefixes
That patently doesn't make sense. To presuppose that simply by being selfish one can create an evil intergalactic empire is absurd. It has far too many moving parts and requires too many people to be completely obedient. Yes fear and crushing dissent can help, but that then requires the survivors to subsume their own selfish desires to say, be free and self determinant, which countermands the initial assumption. I don't expect it to actually make sense, mind you, as you say it wasn't intended for a deep dive, but there is always someone who sees the ocean and thinks "I wonder what's underneath?"
Your answers to my questions don't make sense either. Lets be honest, there is no rational way to imagine the Terran empire exists just like the Federation in its own universe. They are fundamentally different. They cannot exist in the same way because they do not exist in the same way.
As for the Doffing answers, that is pretty useless if they are locked behind lockboxes. However even those ideas bring some fascinating questions. How is the Terran Empire fascist and why is socialism a thing in the MU when they have a post scarcity society just like the prime universe? If the state exerts implied control over all production when production is essentially limitless, then how do they manage that? And why would they tolerate murder for advancement which is inherently dangerous to the top down command structures of such a government?
The logistical implications are fascinating, because to run a state like that you need an inordinate amount of internal security. China today, apparently, spends more on internal security than on their growing military. Socialist economies are also not stable in the least, although given that its a post scarcity society, naturally you can't run out of other people's money as they would otherwise do so.
Obviously some people don't care to look that deep and understand the fine clockwork as it were, they are happy that the clock can tell the time, and that's fine. Some of us though, want to explore.
Now onto Admiral whathisname as others brought up. Tenebris Torquent is indeed one of the very few missions I haven't played yet. However having played Scylla and Charybdis many times for the set pieces, I can't begin to buy it. The admiral does not fight like a changeling (granted not willing to break his cover, yet still fights perfectly like any other Tzenkethi) but every other changeling we fight has a meltdown as they are beaten down and weakened. It smells too much like a retcon to me, but consistency has never been this game's or even Star Trek's strong point. I'll have to get around to playing more of the Gamma missions.
https://sto.gamepedia.com/Mirror_Incursion_Research_Assignment
https://sto.gamepedia.com/Research_Assignment_-_Terran_Empire_Research
But I think you're missing the fundamental nature of the subject. This is fiction. It's not real, it doesn't need to be rational and writers can and do just make things exist in whatever way they want with no explanation. Fiction is usually created top-down and "what's underneath" doesn't exist until the plot demands it be written.
The writers that have created the Terran Empire and made it the way it is did not get paid to do deep sociological analysis of whether it makes any sense, they got paid to write "what if the heroes were evil" -stories. So that's what they wrote. Anything more is fan speculation.
Thus, the Terran Empire is full of torture, murder and slavery because those things are evil and the narrative purpose of the Terran Empire is to be evil.
One Man's Villain Is Another Man's Hero.
"When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway
#Support Mirror Universe I.S.S. Prefixes
"Sometimes, the only way to stop Evil is not with Good. You must confront it with another kind of Evil."
"When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway
#Support Mirror Universe I.S.S. Prefixes
Even this thread if we wanted to take it to this serious place whether we should have an option to kill a npc or not shouldn't be laden down with so much scrutiny. For me it's a fun thread and I do enjoy reading the majority of the comments here I just don't think getting all serious about it is going to do much good here. As a famous criminal once said "why so serious?"
"When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway
#Support Mirror Universe I.S.S. Prefixes
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Evil!
"When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway
#Support Mirror Universe I.S.S. Prefixes