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Short Trek The Trouble With Edward

azrael605azrael605 Member Posts: 10,829 Arc User
Oh lord, so funny, Bob's Burgers/Archer on Star Trek. ROFLMAO!

That aside, apparently the Tribble's vast reproduction is a result of genetic tampering by a scientist who wanted to use them for a food supply.
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  • khan5000khan5000 Member Posts: 2,667 Arc User
    There’s an after credits scene
    Your pain runs deep.
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  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,637 Arc User
    The Magee seems to have been misclassified in STO - according to this, it's actually a research vessel!
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 33,350 Arc User
    too late to change it now - the most cryptic would do, if anything, is change the seating around to give it a bit more science capability - but they won't because that would TRIBBLE up so many things it's not even funny​​
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  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,275 Bug Hunter
    The Magee seems to have been misclassified in STO - according to this, it's actually a research vessel!

    Every Starfleet starship is a research vessel apart from the Defiant and possibly the Olympic and Hiawatha (depending on whether their classes were specifically medial ships or just some of those ships were medical frigates).
    azrael605 wrote: »
    That aside, apparently the Tribble's vast reproduction is a result of genetic tampering by a scientist who wanted to use them for a food supply.

    I wouldn't say so. Phlox already says they breed quickly in ENT, it's just that normal Tribbles require food to do so. Edward's Tribble(s) breed like an automatic weapon with no visible food source (unless they were modified to eat the ship).
    It may be they all get wiped out quite easily because they have human DNA in them, making them easier to target by Klingons. The episode isn't an origin story for Tribbles.

    • Magee Class. It seems quite new here. It's using that horrible blue tint DSC had in series 1 and their sets. Oddly the blue is more appropriate here as it's a science colour.
    • The one colour uniforms seem to not be exclusive to the Constitution crews and this episode is set (or seems to be) prior to Q&A it means they're not even new uniforms by DSC series 2.
    • Trill! (The species, not the noise Tribbles make).
    • Human Tribble hybrids. At least it's Edward's DNA and not, say, a psychotic augment.
    • Another Admiral Quinn?
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
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  • spiritbornspiritborn Member Posts: 1,794 Arc User
    Btw did we see this Admiral Quinn (I'm from Finland so getting Short Treks here would probably involved black magic or the internet equilevant).

    After all if we didn't see said admiral (or (s)he was a Trill) it could be that Jorel Quinn is a joined Trill (I can't remember if it was specified if he was joined or unjoined) and this admiral Quinn was the 23c host for the Quinn symbiote, that said Quinn (or various variant spellings) isn't exactly an uncommon last name so it might not be related to "our" admiral Quinn at all.
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,275 Bug Hunter
    spiritborn wrote: »
    Btw did we see this Admiral Quinn (I'm from Finland so getting Short Treks here would probably involved black magic or the internet equilevant).

    After all if we didn't see said admiral (or (s)he was a Trill) it could be that Jorel Quinn is a joined Trill (I can't remember if it was specified if he was joined or unjoined) and this admiral Quinn was the 23c host for the Quinn symbiote, that said Quinn (or various variant spellings) isn't exactly an uncommon last name so it might not be related to "our" admiral Quinn at all.

    We did. He's human. He's probably related to the guy from TNG.
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,275 Bug Hunter
    48892707848_782e1c1dc5_o.png

    Two uniforms I noticed. The first one, on the right, is the uniform worn under the tactical armour (as seen here on Ash) but recoloured in the style supposedly exclusive to Constitution ships.
    The second, one on the left, seems to be an early version of this and a prime version of this which is nice.

    There's also a guy (Vulcan I think) on the Enterprise wearing a skant meaning the idiotic dress thing Nhan wears is still just as stupid but it is slightly less sexist now. I couldn't get a clear shot of him though.

    Oh, and the weird three screened monitor is back.
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

    Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 928 Arc User
    edited October 13
    artan42 wrote: »
    48892707848_782e1c1dc5_o.png

    Two uniforms I noticed. The first one, on the right, is the uniform worn under the tactical armour (as seen here on Ash) but recoloured in the style supposedly exclusive to Constitution ships.
    The second, one on the left, seems to be an early version of this and a prime version of this which is nice.

    There's also a guy (Vulcan I think) on the Enterprise wearing a skant meaning the idiotic dress thing Nhan wears is still just as stupid but it is slightly less sexist now. I couldn't get a clear shot of him though.

    Oh, and the weird three screened monitor is back.

    It would be nice if they showed the perception of depth that those tri-monitors were supposed to have (like all the other screens) but could not be done with '60s production technology. I suppose it would not be worth the SFX cost to do it though since it is very tricky to pull off so it would be noticeable without VR goggles and probably too subtle for most audiences anyway. It would be easier to do than it would be with a wall mounted screen though, since instead of having the camera follow someone walking across a room with the view shifting in the monitor behind them or something similar, it could be done by someone turning the tri-screen mount and having the part visible to the audience show the parallaxing of the view as the screen swivels.

    Anyway, it is nice to see that the raglan sleeves are back on the one on the far left, they are the only third season uniform decision that made any sense since they are inherently less binding than the regular sleeve style.

    The Cage uniforms were supposed to be entirely seamless except for the sealing strip (where the real world zippers were) and depended on the long knap of the velour to (unfortunately inadequately) hide the real-world seams. When they switched to the cheaper (and ugly) double knit they tried to "disguise" the seams as fashion detailing (especially noticeable on the women's tunic minidresses with the decorative radial seams) though the men's third season uniform tops just looked like boring grungy tee shirts for the most part.

    If they insist on avoiding the long-knap velvet look of The Cage and the first season of Trek (second season was just bad uniform wise, the velour was too far gone by that point but they still kept using it instead of replacing the tunics) and jumping to third-season like materials they should at least go with the better cuts third season had as well.

    Of course the ideal way would be to go with long-knap velvet along with the raglan sleeves and other third season details, it would actually be reasonably fashionable to modern audiences and the shimmer and detail would do wonders for HD viewing.
  • azrael605azrael605 Member Posts: 10,829 Arc User
    The ideal way to go would be what they have always done. Make their own choices and ignore any "suggestions" from fans. On anything.
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,275 Bug Hunter
    It would be nice if they showed the perception of depth that those tri-monitors were supposed to have (like all the other screens) but could not be done with '60s production technology. I suppose it would not be worth the SFX cost to do it though since it is very tricky to pull off so it would be noticeable without VR goggles and probably too subtle for most audiences anyway. It would be easier to do than it would be with a wall mounted screen though, since instead of having the camera follow someone walking across a room with the view shifting in the monitor behind them or something similar, it could be done by someone turning the tri-screen mount and having the part visible to the audience show the parallaxing of the view as the screen swivels.

    If it gets any use on the show proper they might, I suspect that's far too much money for the Short Treks.
    If they insist on avoiding the long-knap velvet look of The Cage and the first season of Trek (second season was just bad uniform wise, the velour was too far gone by that point but they still kept using it instead of replacing the tunics) and jumping to third-season like materials they should at least go with the better cuts third season had as well.

    They're not avoiding that anyway.
    The uniforms in DSC (from the late 30s to the mid 50s) have nothing to do with TOS. They've completely retconned The Cage but nothing seen in DSC or it's associated Short Treks have gone near Where No Man Has Gone Before or beyond that. As far as we know, the velour turtle-necks are still to come.
    I said that uniform on the left was a version of the casual scrubs McCoy wears, however it could also be an undershirt, either way, it's not fitted, so it is fine with looser cut.
    Of course the ideal way would be to go with long-knap velvet along with the raglan sleeves and other third season details, it would actually be reasonably fashionable to modern audiences and the shimmer and detail would do wonders for HD viewing.

    I doubt they'll bother changing anything now. The have three mass produced uniforms (metallic trim all blues, glossy trim bi-colours, and front seam high collars) which is about what they had in the TNG to VGR era (until FC anyway), that should be enough to see them out until the end of DSC.
    azrael605 wrote: »
    The ideal way to go would be what they have always done. Make their own choices and ignore any "suggestions" from fans. On anything.

    I highly doubt Kurtzman is trawling these forums and decides to tell his production staff to stop what they're doing because 'phoenixc' has a different idea. Besides, Kurtzman is a fan, as, I imagine, are a lot of the producers. If they ignore fans opinions they'd never get any work done.
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 928 Arc User
    edited October 14
    artan42 wrote: »
    If they insist on avoiding the long-knap velvet look of The Cage and the first season of Trek (second season was just bad uniform wise, the velour was too far gone by that point but they still kept using it instead of replacing the tunics) and jumping to third-season like materials they should at least go with the better cuts third season had as well.

    They're not avoiding that anyway.
    The uniforms in DSC (from the late 30s to the mid 50s) have nothing to do with TOS. They've completely retconned The Cage but nothing seen in DSC or it's associated Short Treks have gone near Where No Man Has Gone Before or beyond that. As far as we know, the velour turtle-necks are still to come.
    I said that uniform on the left was a version of the casual scrubs McCoy wears, however it could also be an undershirt, either way, it's not fitted, so it is fine with looser cut.
    Of course the ideal way would be to go with long-knap velvet along with the raglan sleeves and other third season details, it would actually be reasonably fashionable to modern audiences and the shimmer and detail would do wonders for HD viewing.

    I doubt they'll bother changing anything now. The have three mass produced uniforms (metallic trim all blues, glossy trim bi-colours, and front seam high collars) which is about what they had in the TNG to VGR era (until FC anyway), that should be enough to see them out until the end of DSC.

    The problem is that they are stuck in 1980s fashion for no good reason. TOS was a blend of trendy and responsible at the time it was made, TMP was also somewhat modern for the time (if rather cringeworthy) though it had a strong streak of Hollywood sci-fi faddism as well. Even TNG was somewhat fashionable for its time (in a late '70s early '80s sense) too when it started, though it ran long enough that fashion passed it by before the end, and then DS9 and Voyager continued in the same '80s mode which made sense continuity wise though it put them increasingly behind the times.

    Then came ENT. As part of trying to make it look "ancient" they dispensed with the idea that uniforms could be comfortable, tough, and look halfway decent all at the same time and went for 20th century flight coveralls. Dressing like janitors worked well for the series itself but it turns out it had bad lingering effects...

    ...Because, in 2017 DSC rolls around and does not even look at modern fashion trends at all, instead they limit their view to strictly previous Trek styles. From the behind the scenes stuff they very, very briefly toyed with the third season tees then decided to go with a weird combination of the ENT coveralls and the uptight '80s stuff from TNG (and to top it off with an extra dollop of sillyness they just had to jump on the Kelvin bandwagon and add the sequin-like deltas). And this at a time when fashion has come around full circle and the cage/early TOS uniforms were much, much closer to the 2017 trends than the laughably retro bedazzled blue nightmares.

    And it simply does not make any sense setting-wise either. The ENT uniforms were from the century before DSC while the TNG ones were from a century after, and the Kelvin ones didn't even exist as far as prime is concerned.

    They are getting a little better though, the natural fabric look of the left and center uniforms in that picture are even a lot better than the almost flocked cardboard look of the one Pike first showed up in (which in turn was better than the S1 nightmares). They really missed the boat though in the first season and all this catching up does not make up for the lost opportunities from both needlessly offending the previously existing core fanbase and looking a bit stale right out of the box.
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,275 Bug Hunter
    Then came ENT. As part of trying to make it look "ancient" they dispensed with the idea that uniforms could be comfortable, tough, and look halfway decent all at the same time and went for 20th century flight coveralls. Dressing like janitors worked well for the series itself but it turns out it had bad lingering effects...

    Yeah, they weren't going for showy uniforms for an organisation in its prime, they were going for practical uniforms for a flying submarine.
    ...Because, in 2017 DSC rolls around and does not even look at modern fashion trends at all, instead they limit their view to strictly previous Trek styles.

    The only past uniforms the DSC ones resemble are the TOS film era ones (well, the three styles from the 2270s to the 2350s), and then it's only in the way they're dressy and ornate and not in any other part like material or cut.
    From the behind the scenes stuff they very, very briefly toyed with the third season tees

    TOS series 3?
    then decided to go with a weird combination of the ENT coveralls

    They're blue and have nothing else in common beyond that.
    and the uptight '80s stuff from TNG

    They share nothing with the TNG era stuff at all. TNG, DS9, VGR, and the TNG films had primarily one piece, mainly black, tight fitting jumpsuits. There's nothing of them in the DSC uniforms.
    and to top it off with an extra dollop of sillyness they just had to jump on the Kelvin bandwagon and add the sequin-like deltas

    That's not silliness, the sequins add a layer of texture that stands out nicely onscreen and breaks up what would otherwise be a metallic block and the deltas are a more interesting shape for that than circles would be.
    And this at a time when fashion has come around full circle and the cage/early TOS uniforms were much, much closer to the 2017 trends than the laughably retro bedazzled blue nightmares.

    You realise that DSC is set in the 2250s right? Not the 2020s. It is not based on current fashion (as you've already said) and is better for it. TMP is poisoned by the vile fashion of the time it was produced. And the DSC uniforms are hardly 'retro' they're inspired by the same fashion that inspired the 2270s to the 2350s which are far too old to be called 'retro'.
    And it simply does not make any sense setting-wise either. The ENT uniforms were from the century before DSC while the TNG ones were from a century after, and the Kelvin ones didn't even exist as far as prime is concerned.

    Well considering they do not, in any way, resemble the ENT or TNG uniforms that's a moot point. There is a small bit of similarity between the KT uniforms of 2263 and the 2263 Prime ones of the 2230s-2250s but that's only due to the high collar and primary colours.

    There's very few Starfleet uniforms that 'flow' from the previous ones. The ENT ones to nicely evolve into the Franklin ones, the TOS Pilot ones do flow into the TOS ones, and the TNG S1-2 ones do fit with the TNG 3-7 ones. Beyond that they never have enough in common to place them in any era.
    They are getting a little better though, the natural fabric look of the left and center uniforms in that picture are even a lot better than the almost flocked cardboard look of the one Pike first showed up in

    The centre uniform is the same as Pike's.
    Which in turn was better than the S1 nightmares

    They're brighter, that's not necessary better.
    They really missed the boat though in the first season and all this catching up does not make up for the lost opportunities

    There were no missed opportunities. This is not the TOS films or TNG where the embarrassing affront to fashion was removed as soon as they could. The DSC series 1 all blues are still the uniform of the Disco.
    from both needlessly offending the previously existing core fanbase

    Oh please, the 'core fanbase' are offended by everything. You can pluck the show directly from their heads and they'd act like you'd just knifed Shatner to death in front of them.
    and looking a bit stale right out of the box.

    They didn't, they looked new. Which is why all the complaints from the core fanbois were about how different they looked, not how samey the looked.
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • azrael605azrael605 Member Posts: 10,829 Arc User
    As usual phoenix I don't know where you come up with this felgercarb but pretty much everything you said is wrong.
  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 33,350 Arc User
    no one gives a cat's TRIBBLE what uniforms are made out of or if they match current fashion - only if it looks cool, and all the discovery uniforms do...at least for the federation

    the klingon ceremonial stuff still looks way too drow for my taste​​
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  • reyan01reyan01 Member Posts: 12,889 Arc User
    artan42 wrote: »

    Oh please, the 'core fanbase' are offended by everything. You can pluck the show directly from their heads and they'd act like you'd just knifed Shatner to death in front of them.

    At this point I'm fairly convinced that some 'fans' watch Discovery and the DSC-era Short Treks specifically to find something to be offended by.

    Seriously - I do wish they'd just skip them and wait for 'Picard', since that looks to be the appropriate mix of nostalgia and fan service that the sour gatekeepers might approve of.
    3U3C0SJ.jpg

  • azrael605azrael605 Member Posts: 10,829 Arc User
    > @reyan01 said:
    > (Quote)
    >
    > At this point I'm fairly convinced that some 'fans' watch Discovery and the DSC-era Short Treks specifically to find something to be offended by.
    >
    > Seriously - I do wish they'd just skip them and wait for 'Picard', since that looks to be the appropriate mix of nostalgia and fan service that the sour gatekeepers might approve of.

    They will be just as "offended" by Picard. There is far less nostalgia and fan service than you think. Much more shaking up the status quo. Quite probably it'll offend them more.
  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 928 Arc User
    edited October 16
    Rather than making a whole-page monster by trying to quote all that stuff I will condense my reply down instead of trying a point-by-point.

    First off, Star Trek did not go fashion-blind until well into the TNG era. Before that they tried to make the uniforms look good by taking the then current cutting edge fashion into account. Most of the time it worked with TMP as the exception, but then again they used the Phase II uniforms (which were from an early to mid-'70s style btw) which were designed for a twenty-something age crew so it just looked ridiculous on the TOS cast. The popular jacketed movie uniforms came at a time when jackets were back in the front of fashion for instance.

    And yes, the uniforms are not exactly and literally a mix of TNG and ENT uniforms, I was talking about the design influences and styles which is something that not all people can even see (no that is not a bad thing either, diversity is actually good, society needs all the various artistic and technical and other types to work). The uptight unisex styling and modified Nehru collars did come from TNG, in fact the "behind the scenes" featurettes included the designers talking about taking cues from the TNG and ENT uniforms so it is not just me saying it.

    Also, retro does not have a time limit unless you count a trend cycle coming back around to be current again (like real velvet and short skirts are back now, which is close enough to the velour minis in TOS to have easily redone them in a way that looks great to modern audiences) "resetting" the retro to "current" for a while. They really did not have to go to the silly delta sequins to get interesting visual detail for HD, the natural shimmer of velvet would have done a much better job of that (instead of looking like they were wearing a scrubby sponge like the Kelvin and DSC S1 uniforms) if they went with deeper, richer versions of the colors for instance.

    On top of that, the retro touches go beyond TNG, the metallic shoulder stripes combined with the straight up shoulder seam cut unfortunately give an impression that harks back to the old black-and-white blaster-opera shows (similar to what Tom Paris's Captain Proton spoofs) that often featured raised collars, stick-out epaulettes, and weird shoulder rings like the boss villain at around the two minute mark in the video below:
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=L8eRzOYhLuw

    The missed opportunities could use its own thread really, there are so many, and missing the chance to make the uniform relevant to modern audiences is definitely one of them.

    When the show was in run-up and early release it almost seemed that Moonves and his bunch were deliberately poking the (core fans) bear to cause as much ruckus as possible. It is not as unlikely as it may seem either, there has long been a view that any publicity is good publicity because it gets people curious enough to see what the strife is about. It may not have been what they were doing of course, but it did seem like it at the time.

    Picard is unlikely to cause the same outrage since they seem to be respecting the TNG origins of the series to some extent at least (no telling for sure until it actually comes out of course). At least they don't have clips of anyone being openly scornful of TNG anyway, like the DSC set designer who said she hated the TOS design and called it "the cardboard Enterprise", and that the only design that had any value at all was the one from "Undiscovered Country".

    I an not one of the people who "hates" DSC, it is definitely watchable though it seems more like a parallel timeline than it does a part of the original one.








  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,832 Arc User
    edited October 16
    Yeah, the captain failed on this one.

    She failed by not court-martialing that arrogant sonuvabitch in the fourth scene. He went behind her back and started insulting her to her superiors, then disobeyed a direct order to drop the subject. That's disrespectful conduct to a superior officer, insubordination, and conduct unbecoming.

    This captain was obviously not ready for command.

    This episode was just infuriating to watch. :s
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  • crypticarmsmancrypticarmsman Member Posts: 3,317 Arc User
    edited October 16
    artan42 wrote: »
    Seriously - I do wish they'd just skip them and wait for 'Picard', since that looks to be the appropriate mix of nostalgia and fan service that the sour gatekeepers might approve of.

    Not this 'gatekeeper' ;)

    Seriously TNG has not aged well, was NEVER a favorite of this old and original TOS fan; and I find it hilarious now that TOS is so outdated because it's 50 years old, but TNG at 32 years, if fine/modern, what EVERY fan wants... :D

    (Personally, I wish they would have redone the 1701-D into something that doesn't look like a 1980ies era art deco peice.) ;)
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  • azrael605azrael605 Member Posts: 10,829 Arc User
    > @phoenixc#0738 said:
    >
    >
    > I an not one of the people who "hates" DSC, it is definitely watchable though it seems more like a parallel timeline than it does a part of the original one.

    It isn't, it is the same timeline.
  • reyan01reyan01 Member Posts: 12,889 Arc User
    starswordc wrote: »
    Yeah, the captain failed on this one.

    She failed by not court-martialing that arrogant sonuvabitch in the fourth scene. He went behind her back and started insulting her to her superiors, then disobeyed a direct order to drop the subject. That's disrespectful conduct to a superior officer, insubordination, and conduct unbecoming.

    This captain was obviously not ready for command.

    This episode was just infuriating to watch. :s

    I disagree

    The loss of the Cabot was the result of an unsanctioned experiment the captain specifically ordered to not take place. Furthermore, Edward point-blank refused evacuation and disobeyed direct orders and engaged in a series of events and obstruction of said events, even being dismissive of the idea of taking action to control the outbreak - the same outbreak that lead to the destruction and loss of the Cabot. Edward continued with his experiment against the Captain's orders. Whilst the captain is ultimately responsible for the loss of the ship, the crewman defied orders and actively engaged in behaviors and activities to subvert her command and others under it and confidence that starfleet command placed in her to command the Cabot. This is no different than encouraging mutiny and sabotaging the ship.
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  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,832 Arc User
    edited October 16
    reyan01 wrote: »
    starswordc wrote: »
    Yeah, the captain failed on this one.

    She failed by not court-martialing that arrogant sonuvabitch in the fourth scene. He went behind her back and started insulting her to her superiors, then disobeyed a direct order to drop the subject. That's disrespectful conduct to a superior officer, insubordination, and conduct unbecoming.

    This captain was obviously not ready for command.

    This episode was just infuriating to watch. :s

    I disagree

    The loss of the Cabot was the result of an unsanctioned experiment the captain specifically ordered to not take place. Furthermore, Edward point-blank refused evacuation and disobeyed direct orders and engaged in a series of events and obstruction of said events, even being dismissive of the idea of taking action to control the outbreak - the same outbreak that lead to the destruction and loss of the Cabot. Edward continued with his experiment against the Captain's orders. Whilst the captain is ultimately responsible for the loss of the ship, the crewman defied orders and actively engaged in behaviors and activities to subvert her command and others under it and confidence that starfleet command placed in her to command the Cabot. This is no different than encouraging mutiny and sabotaging the ship.

    You're missing the point. If Captain Lucero had properly busted his TRIBBLE$ in scene four when he started mouthing off, before he gene-modded the tribble, she wouldn't have lost the ship.

    This isn't a freaking school kid in need of a visit to the principle's office: she's the commanding officer of a starship carrying sufficient firepower to glass an inhabited planet, and he's disrespecting her rank and office and her personally.

    She wasn't mentally prepared to drop the hammer on an insubordinate crew member, so she wasn't ready for command.
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  • hawku001xhawku001x Member Posts: 10,221 Arc User
    Just saw this one. I enjoyed the comedy timing with Larkin and death by tribble. :D
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  • crypticarmsmancrypticarmsman Member Posts: 3,317 Arc User
    starswordc wrote: »
    reyan01 wrote: »
    starswordc wrote: »
    Yeah, the captain failed on this one.

    She failed by not court-martialing that arrogant sonuvabitch in the fourth scene. He went behind her back and started insulting her to her superiors, then disobeyed a direct order to drop the subject. That's disrespectful conduct to a superior officer, insubordination, and conduct unbecoming.

    This captain was obviously not ready for command.

    This episode was just infuriating to watch. :s

    I disagree

    The loss of the Cabot was the result of an unsanctioned experiment the captain specifically ordered to not take place. Furthermore, Edward point-blank refused evacuation and disobeyed direct orders and engaged in a series of events and obstruction of said events, even being dismissive of the idea of taking action to control the outbreak - the same outbreak that lead to the destruction and loss of the Cabot. Edward continued with his experiment against the Captain's orders. Whilst the captain is ultimately responsible for the loss of the ship, the crewman defied orders and actively engaged in behaviors and activities to subvert her command and others under it and confidence that starfleet command placed in her to command the Cabot. This is no different than encouraging mutiny and sabotaging the ship.

    You're missing the point. If Captain Lucero had properly busted his TRIBBLE$ in scene four when he started mouthing off, before he gene-modded the tribble, she wouldn't have lost the ship.

    This isn't a freaking school kid in need of a visit to the principle's office: she's the commanding officer of a starship carrying sufficient firepower to glass an inhabited planet, and he's disrespecting her rank and office and her personally.

    She wasn't mentally prepared to drop the hammer on an insubordinate crew member, so she wasn't ready for command.

    To also be fair - for a Science vessel lab NOT to have some sort of automatic breach containment using forcefields (which the Cabbot obviously didn't since if it did; the Tribbles would have been cushed/confined to that lab) - Starfleet ship designers are at fault here too. ;)
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  • saurializardsaurializard Member Posts: 3,166 Arc User
    edited October 23
    As someone who loved/s all tribble-focused episodes in the Star Trek franchise, I absolutely, ABSOLUTELY... HATED this short.

    The whole thing is a mess from the near-beginning to the end, and yes, that includes the post-credits parodic commercial that is funny... but forgets to even have a coherent purpose or punchline, so you start off watching it telling yourself "oh oh, yes, go ahead, it's already funny, where is this leading to" and when it's over you're like "...............Oh. Oooooookaaaaaaaaay, that was gross and non-sensical... and?".

    For me, the only way this episode would work is if the new Captain was so utterly incompetent and an extraordinarily bad liar she made up the whole report and failed to realize how tribbles and human beings function.

    Or if it's considered a non-canon what if? episode with a negative continuity. But that only works when your franchise has an history of having those kinds of episodes, not when all episodes are supposed to be part of the same continuity.



    Of course, we have:
    -Canon discontinuity: "the only problem with this particular species is that they breed very slowly", so TRIBBLE you Phlox and Season 02, Episode 21 The Breach from Enterprise.

    -Stupid characters, Edward taking the cake, eating it, then taking 3 other ones. It takes a special kind of stupid and obnoxious to continue trying to argue with your captain after she's told you the conversation is over TEN FREAKING TIMES.

    -There is a character having no social skills and there is this guy. Having him being a basement dweller internet troll with no life would already be incredibly cliché'd and ridiculous considering his behavior, but this guy is a scientist on a Starfleet vessel. As the captain said, how did he manage to go this far in life? Also, spreading rumors the Captain is dumb... really? He's an officer and that petty and stupid? Are you, writers, trying to make us think Wesley was actually a great character or something?

    -Stupid science. Tribbles mixed with human DNA make them breed very very fast... OK, that's already ridiculous. And then, the writers decided it wasn't stupid enough and added the fact they can now breed very fast WITHOUT FREAKING FOOD! The entire point of a tribble is that it's a cute cooing creature that is nice to have around as long as you make sure they don't feed too much otherwise, you end up with an invasion of cooing furballs until you manage to stop feeding them. That's simple and more than enough to create interesting and coherent scenarios around that!

    -Stupid decisions. "Hey, there are hundreds, maybe thousands, maybe even already millions of tribbles infesting the ship, so let's try to take them down non-lethally", OK, why not... "by shooting them one at the time with phaser rifles", ARE YOU SERIOUS?! There really were no other options, like pouring sleeping gas in life support or something while the crew stays safe in unaffected decks, for example?

    -Red alert due to ongoing uncontainable invasion: "I'm not helping". TRIBBLE you, Edward, just... TRIBBLE you.

    -"I'm smart". Yeah, creating an uncontrollable invasion on a closed environment and not admitting that some part of this idea was stupid is the definition of smart. Just shut up, Edward.

    -4 minutes in the episode: "one fell off my desk the other day and it just died instantly"... OK, we're talking about the tribbles that everyone and their brother have stepped or sit on at least once with no harm caused to them, right?
    -10 minutes in the episode: "WARNING pressure overload" (of the entire ship)... OK, make up your mind. Are they as fragile as chicken eggs or indestructible abominations that can flip the bird at Starfleet alloys, shields and forcefields?
    -11:20 minutes in the episode: "the ship suffered a complete and total structural failure" ... *screams in a pillow* "managed to find its way to the surface of Pragine 63" ... Oh, so now they can survive the vacuum of space and/or entry into the atmosphere... "forcing the evacuation of an entire civilization" ... How long did it take for th..."in less than TWO WEEKS under your command" ... *screams into pillow even more*


    Forget about the Heralds and the Hur'q, we have our new seasonal threat, everyone! Discovery-themed tribbles! J'Ula can toss her mycelial superweapon aside and conquer the galaxy with ease with these new rules! Beam down a dozen of tribbles on each Federation homeworld and Tada, in two weeks, they've become colonies of furballs that'd make the Borg assimilation jealous.
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  • azrael605azrael605 Member Posts: 10,829 Arc User
    Tribbles have been born pregnant since their first appearance. Your science critiques do not take in to account that (A) Trek has never used accurate science except accidentally & (B) combining DNA from different species is a very common experiment for real life geneticists, like the people right now trying to unextinct Mammoths.
  • saurializardsaurializard Member Posts: 3,166 Arc User
    edited October 24
    azrael605 wrote: »
    Tribbles have been born pregnant since their first appearance.
    Which the episode contradicts, that's (one of) the main problems:
    "Captain: Can anyone tell me how they (the supposedly slow breeding tribbles) are breeding so quickly?
    Trill Sci Off: I analyzed a newborn tribble. They're born pregnant.
    *everyone looks at the idiot responsible for this mess who just smugly shrugs*
    Edward: Well, when you mix human DNA with tribble DNA, crazy stuff happens"

    Which means the show is saying before he injected one, they weren't a species born pregnant... and that they were slow breeders.
    Your science critiques do not take in to account that (A) Trek has never used accurate science except accidentally & (B) combining DNA from different species is a very common experiment for real life geneticists, like the people right now trying to unextinct Mammoths.
    I'm not criticizing the idea of mixing human DNA and tribble DNA by itself -even if I still think it's freaking stupid but I've seen worse in the franchise (which is no excuse, BTW)-, I'm criticizing the fact it violates the continuity in addition of being stupid.

    #TASforSTO
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  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 928 Arc User
    It does sound like that short trek should have a bar scene envelope and the story turn out to be a drunken tale.
  • azrael605azrael605 Member Posts: 10,829 Arc User
    > @saurializard said:
    > (Quote)
    > Which the episode contradicts, that's (one of) the main problems:
    > "Captain: Can anyone tell me how they (the supposedly slow breeding tribbles) are breeding so quickly?
    > Trill Sci Off: I analyzed a newborn tribble. They're born pregnant.
    > *everyone looks at the idiot responsible for this mess who just smugly shrugs*
    > Edward: Well, when you mix human DNA with tribble DNA, crazy stuff happens"
    >
    > Which means the show is saying before he injected one, they weren't a species born pregnant... and that they were slow breeders.
    > (Quote)
    > I'm not criticizing the idea of mixing human DNA and tribble DNA by itself -even if I still think it's freaking stupid but I've seen worse in the franchise (which is no excuse, BTW)-, I'm criticizing the fact it violates the continuity in addition of being stupid.

    1. New canon that disagrees with older canon is a retcon. The older canon is entirely supplanted by the new.
    2. The Trouble With Tribbles is more than 10 years in the future from when this short happens.
    3. There are no continuity violations that mean anything more than when Wesley Crusher talked about when Klingons joined the Federation.
  • saurializardsaurializard Member Posts: 3,166 Arc User
    azrael605 wrote: »
    1. New canon that disagrees with older canon is a retcon. The older canon is entirely supplanted by the new.
    2. The Trouble With Tribbles is more than 10 years in the future from when this short happens.
    3. There are no continuity violations that mean anything more than when Wesley Crusher talked about when Klingons joined the Federation.
    Still ignoring parts that contradict what you're saying, I see?
    1. Sorry, but it's not even a retcon when it throws the entire point of something out of the window. That'd like having someone say "Actually, the Waynes were accidentally killed by their son and since Joe Chill was around, his traumatic memories just twisted the events to make him think the robber killed them". It could work in one of the countless Elseworlds stories, but not in the primary universe.
    2. Once more: the Breach, Season 02, Episode 21 of Enterprise. Phlox talks about how Tribbles reproduce: ""All it's capable of doing, really, is eating and breeding. The problem is they breed quite prodigiously."
    3. [Citation and episode needed]

    Also, retcons work when they're necessary on the long-term and/or if the subject was already ambiguous (accidentally or not) in the first place (like how Darth Vader and Anakin ended up being the same person. It was a retcon but a brilliant one due to how Obi-Wan's lines were said and the context). It added a twist, more complexity, more personal conflict and more backstory to the whole saga.

    What does having tribbles actually being slow breeders that were genetically altered to become the invasive species we know and love, all while removing their weakness (stop feeding them and they stop breeding ("Now, he tellls me...") and making them an actual serious threat that can outgrow and destroy ships from the inside by sheer strength, accomplish to the franchise?

    Nothing! Nothing except making their biology quirk more universal-laws-breakingly ridiculous than it was before and causing some beloved episodes to stop being logical if you take this "retcon" for granted.
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