How so? We have at least four instances where Burnham changed the original timeline that the Red Angel came from.
Burnham didn't change anything. Nowhere has it ever been said in DISCO canon that anyone changed anything from the timeline. All we know is the Red Angel is from around 500 years into the future and that it appears that future is a bad one. There has been zero mention about Burnham causing that future, altering that future or anything else of the sort.
Stop watching Midnight's Edge videos.
I have never watched a single Midnight's Edge video and how dare you suggest such a thing. Did you even watch the If Memory Serves episode? If the Red Angel didn't visit Spock, then Burnham would have been killed or severely injured as a child resulting in Burnham not becoming a Starfleet Officer. If an influential character didn't exist in one timeline and exists in the other, then there will be changes to the timeline.
She is the first Starfleet mutineer, killed T'Kuvma, and brought Empress Georgiou to her universe. Being the first Starfleet mutineer is a minor footnote in history. It is not known what the outcome of the Battle of the Binary Stars would have been in Burnham didn't attempt her mutiny and killed T'Kuvma. The most major impact of Burnham so far is obviously bringing Empress Georgiou to her universe. By making the decision to bring Empress Georgiou to her universe, Burnham is indirectly responsible for all of the changes to the timeline caused by Empress Georgiou.
And if Kodos the Execution hadn't slaughtered half a colony when Jim Kirk was a boy, he never would have felt the need to join Starfleet to help prevent such situations in the future, so all of the disasters he stopped as captain of the Enterprise would have happened. Therefore, Kodos the Executioner is the most important person in the Star Trek universe.
Do you understand how ridiculous you sound? Of course Burnham is involved in the DSC stories - she's a major viewpoint character! Try writing a story in which the protagonist sits there while someone else tells them about the interesting things that happened to other people altogether. Kinda boring, isn't it?
And if Kodos the Execution hadn't slaughtered half a colony when Jim Kirk was a boy, he never would have felt the need to join Starfleet to help prevent such situations in the future, so all of the disasters he stopped as captain of the Enterprise would have happened. Therefore, Kodos the Executioner is the most important person in the Star Trek universe.
Do you understand how ridiculous you sound? Of course Burnham is involved in the DSC stories - she's a major viewpoint character! Try writing a story in which the protagonist sits there while someone else tells them about the interesting things that happened to other people altogether. Kinda boring, isn't it?
There is no evidence that Kirk wouldn't have joined Starfleet if he never encountered Kodos the Executioner. According to Star Trek 2009, George Kirk was a Starfleet Officer and could have provided the necessary inspiration for James Kirk to join Starfleet.
Take Burnham away from the story and see how it changes the story. The Discovery timeline has Burnham becoming a Starfleet Officer while the Red Angel timeline has Burnham killed or severely injured as a child. Therefore, every major decision Burnham takes that never occurred in the original timeline drifts the timeline further and further away from the Red Angel timeline.
How so? We have at least four instances where Burnham changed the original timeline that the Red Angel came from.
Burnham didn't change anything. Nowhere has it ever been said in DISCO canon that anyone changed anything from the timeline. All we know is the Red Angel is from around 500 years into the future and that it appears that future is a bad one. There has been zero mention about Burnham causing that future, altering that future or anything else of the sort.
Stop watching Midnight's Edge videos.
I have never watched a single Midnight's Edge video and how dare you suggest such a thing. Did you even watch the If Memory Serves episode? If the Red Angel didn't visit Spock, then Burnham would have been killed or severely injured as a child resulting in Burnham not becoming a Starfleet Officer. If an influential character didn't exist in one timeline and exists in the other, then there will be changes to the timeline.
She is the first Starfleet mutineer, killed T'Kuvma, and brought Empress Georgiou to her universe. Being the first Starfleet mutineer is a minor footnote in history. It is not known what the outcome of the Battle of the Binary Stars would have been in Burnham didn't attempt her mutiny and killed T'Kuvma. The most major impact of Burnham so far is obviously bringing Empress Georgiou to her universe. By making the decision to bring Empress Georgiou to her universe, Burnham is indirectly responsible for all of the changes to the timeline caused by Empress Georgiou.
you're missing her influence on both Spock and Sarek there, and by extension, influence on their interactions with others. You'er also failing to account for the influence she has had or will have on Pike, Pike's relationships and his decisions, as well as her presence influencing what ship he's commanding, plus how events she was involved with influenced other figures in the Trek universe.
when you get down to it, all the tie-ins to other series inflate her influence over the setting. she ends up being the most important figure in the Trek universe thanks to the cameos, tie-ins, call-backs and her very position and existence in relationships.
You can't work with someone without their influencing you, you can't have someone in your family who has zero hold on your ideas, reactions, and thoughts. Both indirect and direct impacts suggest Burnham is the center of the Trek universe, and the only indispensible person in it.
Didn't list her influence on other people's decisions since they could have made the same decision without Burnham. However, she is responsible for any action that Tyler or Empress Georgiou takes since Voq would have stood by T'Kuvma if he lived and Empress Georgiou would have been assassinated or still ruling the Terran Empire.
There is no evidence that Kirk wouldn't have joined Starfleet if he never encountered Kodos the Executioner. According to Star Trek 2009, George Kirk was a Starfleet Officer and could have provided the necessary inspiration for James Kirk to join Starfleet.
Actually... Pike challenged him to join Starfleet.
In the Prime Timeline, Jim Kirk was inspired by his father. In the Kelvin Timeline he didn't have that. He had a rather abrasive relationship with his step-father, and was more rebelious because of that. It took a bar fight and basically being challenged by Pike after said fight to get him into Starfleet. https://youtu.be/gEvKu0SCNJU?t=179
Start it about 2:59
There is no evidence that Kirk wouldn't have joined Starfleet if he never encountered Kodos the Executioner. According to Star Trek 2009, George Kirk was a Starfleet Officer and could have provided the necessary inspiration for James Kirk to join Starfleet.
Actually... Pike challenged him to join Starfleet.
In the Prime Timeline, Jim Kirk was inspired by his father. In the Kelvin Timeline he didn't have that. He had a rather abrasive relationship with his step-father, and was more rebelious because of that. It took a bar fight and basically being challenged by Pike after said fight to get him into Starfleet. https://youtu.be/gEvKu0SCNJU?t=179
Start it about 2:59
The only reason why Star Trek 2009 was referenced is due to there being no information on George Kirk in any previous Star Trek series. If George Kirk was a Starfleet Officer in Star Trek 2009, then he was a Starfleet Officer before TOS. So Pike challenging Kirk to join Starfleet is completely irrelevant since what happens in an alternate reality stays in an alternate reality. For all we know, he picked up a desk job after Kirk was born.
I have never watched a single Midnight's Edge video and how dare you suggest such a thing. Did you even watch the If Memory Serves episode? If the Red Angel didn't visit Spock, then Burnham would have been killed or severely injured as a child resulting in Burnham not becoming a Starfleet Officer. If an influential character didn't exist in one timeline and exists in the other, then there will be changes to the timeline.
I don't think you watched the episode you're mentioning at all. You also seem to have never seen the episode where the Red Angel saved a group of random people during WWIII - who are not Burnham. There is no canon source that expressly states Burhham did not exist in the timeline before. According to your ludicrous mental gymnastics and head canon, and as others have already said, you can apply the same nonsense to Sisko, Janeway Archer, Lorca etc. all of which never existed before either. There is no before and after timeline. The original prime timeline is playing out here.
She is the first Starfleet mutineer, killed T'Kuvma, and brought Empress Georgiou to her universe. Being the first Starfleet mutineer is a minor footnote in history. It is not known what the outcome of the Battle of the Binary Stars would have been in Burnham didn't attempt her mutiny and killed T'Kuvma. The most major impact of Burnham so far is obviously bringing Empress Georgiou to her universe. By making the decision to bring Empress Georgiou to her universe, Burnham is indirectly responsible for all of the changes to the timeline caused by Empress Georgiou.
All of which is part of the original prime timeline per official canon.
The timeline changes far too often in Star Trek, especially in Enterprise. Voyager's series finale was all about changing the timeline. We clearly saw that Burnham was going to be something's dinner if she was not saved by the Red Angel. There is no canon source that expressly states Burnham existed in the timeline before, but there is canon source that expressly states that Burnham did not exist or was severely injured in the timeline before. It is your headcanon that thinks that Burnham wouldn't be killed or severely injured after her encounter with that creature. If Burnham wasn't severely injured or killed in the original timeline, then there would have been no need for the Red Angel to go back in time and save her. Therefore, no Red Angel no Burnham.
Not sure why you bring up that ludicrous claim that Burnham never existed as a Starfleet Officer in the original timeline applies to Sisko, Janeway, Archer, and Lorca since it requires ludicrous mental gymnastics to make that claim and there is no evidence that their existence as a Starfleet Officer or masquerading as one requires time travel while Burnham's existence as a Starfleet Officer requires time travel. The only other character that is similar to Burnham in Star Trek is Spock in the Yesteryear episode from TAS, but that would only work if the Red Angel is Burnham. TAS Spock saves Spock as a kid through the Guardian of Forever because Spock remembers that a cousin named Selek that looks exactly like his current self saved him as a kid from a wild animal which results in a predestination paradox. So unless young Burnham being saved by the Red Angel is a predestination paradox where the Red Angel is Burnham, then there is no Burnham as a Starfleet Officer in the original timeline. So take your pick, either Burnham is the Red Angel and she went back in time to preserve her existence or Burnham never existed as a Starfleet Officer in the original timeline.
There are a lot of arguments here that make no sense whatsoever. Prior to ENT Archer was never mentioned and yet without him there would be no federation at all. If anything he's probably one of the most irresponsible characters in Trek canon. And Sisko is literally a demigod.
The simple reason no on is mentioned is just prequel syndrome. Nothing more nothing less.
While it is still technically possible Burnam is the red angel (since at this point it could be anyone) it doesn't make any sense to claim that the timeline we see in TNG and co is one where she was munched on by that big bug thing. Assuming Burnam was a focal point (which ignores new eden and the kelpians etc) then an equally plausible theory would be saving Burnam makes the timeline we all know and love and her death is an alt one not the other way around.
There is no canon source that expressly states Burnham existed in the timeline before, but there is canon source that expressly states that Burnham did not exist or was severely injured in the timeline before.
Where? There is no dialogue or scene ever in any series - including DISCO - that proves Burnham was dead or injured before and now because of the Red Angel, she is alive. All it shows is she had a close call and the Red Angel helped. There is no inference this outcome was any different before.
There is zero mention of an original or altered timeline here. This is not JJ Trek where it is expressly stated they are in an alternate timeline.
We don't know what the Red Angel is all about yet. We only have bits and pieces.
It could be that the Red Angel just "saved" her to gain Spock's trust. After all, if it was just about her, it would have been easier to interact directly with Burnham, rather than give Spock a vision so he could tell his parents where to look.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
> @mustrumridcully0 said: > valoreah wrote: » > > starkaos wrote: » > > There is no canon source that expressly states Burnham existed in the timeline before, but there is canon source that expressly states that Burnham did not exist or was severely injured in the timeline before. > > > > > Where? There is no dialogue or scene ever in any series - including DISCO - that proves Burnham was dead or injured before and now because of the Red Angel, she is alive. All it shows is she had a close call and the Red Angel helped. There is no inference this outcome was any different before. > > There is zero mention of an original or altered timeline here. This is not JJ Trek where it is expressly stated they are in an alternate timeline. > > We don't know what the Red Angel is all about yet. We only have bits and pieces. > > > > > It could be that the Red Angel just "saved" her to gain Spock's trust. After all, if it was just about her, it would have been easier to interact directly with Burnham, rather than give Spock a vision so he could tell his parents where to look.
Which is exactly what I said in the post no one else apparently bothered to read.
There is no canon source that expressly states Burnham existed in the timeline before, but there is canon source that expressly states that Burnham did not exist or was severely injured in the timeline before.
Where? There is no dialogue or scene ever in any series - including DISCO - that proves Burnham was dead or injured before and now because of the Red Angel, she is alive. All it shows is she had a close call and the Red Angel helped. There is no inference this outcome was any different before.
There is zero mention of an original or altered timeline here. This is not JJ Trek where it is expressly stated they are in an alternate timeline.
We don't know what the Red Angel is all about yet. We only have bits and pieces.
There doesn't need to be dialog that proves Burnham was dead or injured in a previous timeline to know that Burnham was about to be that creature's dinner or severely injured if the Red Angel's actions didn't save Burnham. If the shuttle didn't arrive in time to scare off the creature, then Burnham would have had a different fate.
Since we have a time traveler intentionally influencing the timeline, then there is an original timeline that the time traveler is trying to change.
Invent something based on evidence only you can see and preset it as fact. Then argue incessantly with people pointing out your facts are all made up. Continue repeating them anyway and sprinkling new falsehoods in there as though your previous ones were now confirmed.
Whatever timeline we're now in, starkaos has turned into patrickngo.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
While it is still technically possible Burnam is the red angel...
Humans can't live 500+ years, and apparently the Red Angel is from 500 years in the future, which would mean they're from the 29th Century.
What do we know of that particular time period... Starfleet posesses Temporal tech, as evidenced by the Aeon and USS Relativity. Its possible this Red Angel suit is some kind of advanced time travel EV suit. We don't know. But we DO know that 29th Century Starfleet has a Temporal Prime Directive, and has made trips into the past to correct temporal aberations. Could this be connected to that or do we have a rogue agent who is acting without orders because they see a threat but Starfleet doesn't? We don't know.
Invent something based on evidence only you can see and preset it as fact. Then argue incessantly with people pointing out your facts are all made up. Continue repeating them anyway and sprinkling new falsehoods in there as though your previous ones were now confirmed.
Whatever timeline we're now in, starkaos has turned into patrickngo.
Which falsehoods? Burnham was attacked by a creature and was only saved because of the Red Angel's actions. It doesn't require Spock to realize what would happen in that situation if the aircraft didn't arrive when it did. Is there any evidence that Burnham would have survived or not be severely injured if the aircraft didn't arrive in time? If Burnham would have survived and not severely injured without the Red Angel's help, then there would have been no need for the Red Angel to save her.
If the Red Angel personally saved Burnham, then Burnham would still need to walk back home. There is no guarantee that Burnham would have come back home after being saved since she was running away from home to protect her family. So the Red Angel using Spock is the most logical choice.
Invent something based on evidence only you can see and preset it as fact. Then argue incessantly with people pointing out your facts are all made up. Continue repeating them anyway and sprinkling new falsehoods in there as though your previous ones were now confirmed.
Whatever timeline we're now in, starkaos has turned into patrickngo.
So the Red Angel using Spock is the most logical choice.
Is it? What if Spock doesn't believe the Angel's visions? Why not show Amanda or Sarek, who are searching for her and can presumably fly a shuttle to get her?
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
There doesn't need to be dialog that proves Burnham was dead or injured in a previous timeline to know that Burnham was about to be that creature's dinner or severely injured if the Red Angel's actions didn't save Burnham. If the shuttle didn't arrive in time to scare off the creature, then Burnham would have had a different fate.
You don't know that. Any number of things could have happened.
If any number of things that could have happened where Burnham was saved and uninjured without the help of the Red Angel, then there was no need for the Red Angel to go back in time to save Burnham. If the Red Angel 'saved' Burnham as a method to influence Spock where Burnham was never in any real danger, then that calls into question everything about the Red Angel especially its motives and the vision that it gave Spock. We assume that the Red Angel is changing the past to prevent a terrible future, but it could end up being one of the main villains of Discovery.
While it is still technically possible Burnam is the red angel...
Humans can't live 500+ years, and apparently the Red Angel is from 500 years in the future, which would mean they're from the 29th Century.
What do we know of that particular time period... Starfleet posesses Temporal tech, as evidenced by the Aeon and USS Relativity. Its possible this Red Angel suit is some kind of advanced time travel EV suit. We don't know. But we DO know that 29th Century Starfleet has a Temporal Prime Directive, and has made trips into the past to correct temporal aberations. Could this be connected to that or do we have a rogue agent who is acting without orders because they see a threat but Starfleet doesn't? We don't know.
The technology is from the 28th century. The occupant of the suit could still technically be anyone. Except Shatner.
While it is still technically possible Burnam is the red angel...
Humans can't live 500+ years, and apparently the Red Angel is from 500 years in the future, which would mean they're from the 29th Century.
What do we know of that particular time period... Starfleet posesses Temporal tech, as evidenced by the Aeon and USS Relativity. Its possible this Red Angel suit is some kind of advanced time travel EV suit. We don't know. But we DO know that 29th Century Starfleet has a Temporal Prime Directive, and has made trips into the past to correct temporal aberations. Could this be connected to that or do we have a rogue agent who is acting without orders because they see a threat but Starfleet doesn't? We don't know.
The technology is from the 28th century. The occupant of the suit could still technically be anyone. Except Shatner.
Ever read any of Shatner's novels? Jim Kirk is the central person to everything, in at least two universes. He's probably got a treatment prepared where Kirk is the Red Angel. And the guy who cloned Kahless. And the one who gave the Ba'ul their tech. And the savior of the life-forms in the Mycelial Network. And...
While it is still technically possible Burnam is the red angel...
Humans can't live 500+ years, and apparently the Red Angel is from 500 years in the future, which would mean they're from the 29th Century.
What do we know of that particular time period... Starfleet posesses Temporal tech, as evidenced by the Aeon and USS Relativity. Its possible this Red Angel suit is some kind of advanced time travel EV suit. We don't know. But we DO know that 29th Century Starfleet has a Temporal Prime Directive, and has made trips into the past to correct temporal aberations. Could this be connected to that or do we have a rogue agent who is acting without orders because they see a threat but Starfleet doesn't? We don't know.
The technology is from the 28th century. The occupant of the suit could still technically be anyone. Except Shatner.
Ever read any of Shatner's novels? Jim Kirk is the central person to everything, in at least two universes. He's probably got a treatment prepared where Kirk is the Red Angel. And the guy who cloned Kahless. And the one who gave the Ba'ul their tech. And the savior of the life-forms in the Mycelial Network. And...
Which is why you have to veto it fast. Gods and Elements bless Dr Soren for saving us.
While it is still technically possible Burnam is the red angel...
Humans can't live 500+ years, and apparently the Red Angel is from 500 years in the future, which would mean they're from the 29th Century.
What do we know of that particular time period... Starfleet posesses Temporal tech, as evidenced by the Aeon and USS Relativity. Its possible this Red Angel suit is some kind of advanced time travel EV suit. We don't know. But we DO know that 29th Century Starfleet has a Temporal Prime Directive, and has made trips into the past to correct temporal aberations. Could this be connected to that or do we have a rogue agent who is acting without orders because they see a threat but Starfleet doesn't? We don't know.
The technology is from the 28th century. The occupant of the suit could still technically be anyone. Except Shatner.
Except we don't know that. The probe aliens might be from 500 years in the future, but all we know is that the probe aged 500 years in the temporal anomaly in just a few minutes. Also, time is messed up in the temporal anomaly. From the Light and Shadows episode, "This plasma burn looks like it happened a week ago, this one yesterday, and the third one eight minutes from now." So there is no way to know when the probe aliens or Red Angel came from based on the Light and Shadows episode.
There is no canon source that expressly states Burnham existed in the timeline before, but there is canon source that expressly states that Burnham did not exist or was severely injured in the timeline before.
Where? There is no dialogue or scene ever in any series - including DISCO - that proves Burnham was dead or injured before and now because of the Red Angel, she is alive. All it shows is she had a close call and the Red Angel helped. There is no inference this outcome was any different before.
There is zero mention of an original or altered timeline here. This is not JJ Trek where it is expressly stated they are in an alternate timeline.
We don't know what the Red Angel is all about yet. We only have bits and pieces.
It could be that the Red Angel just "saved" her to gain Spock's trust. After all, if it was just about her, it would have been easier to interact directly with Burnham, rather than give Spock a vision so he could tell his parents where to look.
I'd say that this is VERY much the case.
Despite what some might like to think, the Red Angel doesn't seem to have any special interest in Burham. I mean she, for all intents and purposes, died when the logic extremists bombed the learning centre building with her inside when she was a child - Sarek saved her via a mind-meld, but there has been literally NOTHING to suggest that the Red Angel intervened in that case.
All of the Red Angel's actions are inconsistent. Why bother saving a bunch of World War III survivors and put them on a planet in the Delta Quadrant, making Saru's race the dominant race of the planet, or Jett Reno and her crewmembers on that asteroid to prevent some alien race from destroying a bunch of planets. Saving Burnham makes as much sense as any other action done by the Red Angel.
All of the Red Angel's actions are inconsistent. Why bother saving a bunch of World War III survivors and put them on a planet in the Delta Quadrant, making Saru's race the dominant race of the planet, or Jett Reno and her crewmembers on that asteroid to prevent some alien race from destroying a bunch of planets. Saving Burnham makes as much sense as any other action done by the Red Angel.
New Eden was in the Beta Quadrant, not the Delta Quadrant. It was just on the far end of the Beta Quadrant.
Thought I heard Delta Quadrant for some reason. The only reason to put them that far away from Federation space is to preserve humanity.
Comments
I have never watched a single Midnight's Edge video and how dare you suggest such a thing. Did you even watch the If Memory Serves episode? If the Red Angel didn't visit Spock, then Burnham would have been killed or severely injured as a child resulting in Burnham not becoming a Starfleet Officer. If an influential character didn't exist in one timeline and exists in the other, then there will be changes to the timeline.
She is the first Starfleet mutineer, killed T'Kuvma, and brought Empress Georgiou to her universe. Being the first Starfleet mutineer is a minor footnote in history. It is not known what the outcome of the Battle of the Binary Stars would have been in Burnham didn't attempt her mutiny and killed T'Kuvma. The most major impact of Burnham so far is obviously bringing Empress Georgiou to her universe. By making the decision to bring Empress Georgiou to her universe, Burnham is indirectly responsible for all of the changes to the timeline caused by Empress Georgiou.
Do you understand how ridiculous you sound? Of course Burnham is involved in the DSC stories - she's a major viewpoint character! Try writing a story in which the protagonist sits there while someone else tells them about the interesting things that happened to other people altogether. Kinda boring, isn't it?
There is no evidence that Kirk wouldn't have joined Starfleet if he never encountered Kodos the Executioner. According to Star Trek 2009, George Kirk was a Starfleet Officer and could have provided the necessary inspiration for James Kirk to join Starfleet.
Take Burnham away from the story and see how it changes the story. The Discovery timeline has Burnham becoming a Starfleet Officer while the Red Angel timeline has Burnham killed or severely injured as a child. Therefore, every major decision Burnham takes that never occurred in the original timeline drifts the timeline further and further away from the Red Angel timeline.
Didn't list her influence on other people's decisions since they could have made the same decision without Burnham. However, she is responsible for any action that Tyler or Empress Georgiou takes since Voq would have stood by T'Kuvma if he lived and Empress Georgiou would have been assassinated or still ruling the Terran Empire.
Actually... Pike challenged him to join Starfleet.
In the Prime Timeline, Jim Kirk was inspired by his father. In the Kelvin Timeline he didn't have that. He had a rather abrasive relationship with his step-father, and was more rebelious because of that. It took a bar fight and basically being challenged by Pike after said fight to get him into Starfleet.
Start it about 2:59
The only reason why Star Trek 2009 was referenced is due to there being no information on George Kirk in any previous Star Trek series. If George Kirk was a Starfleet Officer in Star Trek 2009, then he was a Starfleet Officer before TOS. So Pike challenging Kirk to join Starfleet is completely irrelevant since what happens in an alternate reality stays in an alternate reality. For all we know, he picked up a desk job after Kirk was born.
The timeline changes far too often in Star Trek, especially in Enterprise. Voyager's series finale was all about changing the timeline. We clearly saw that Burnham was going to be something's dinner if she was not saved by the Red Angel. There is no canon source that expressly states Burnham existed in the timeline before, but there is canon source that expressly states that Burnham did not exist or was severely injured in the timeline before. It is your headcanon that thinks that Burnham wouldn't be killed or severely injured after her encounter with that creature. If Burnham wasn't severely injured or killed in the original timeline, then there would have been no need for the Red Angel to go back in time and save her. Therefore, no Red Angel no Burnham.
Not sure why you bring up that ludicrous claim that Burnham never existed as a Starfleet Officer in the original timeline applies to Sisko, Janeway, Archer, and Lorca since it requires ludicrous mental gymnastics to make that claim and there is no evidence that their existence as a Starfleet Officer or masquerading as one requires time travel while Burnham's existence as a Starfleet Officer requires time travel. The only other character that is similar to Burnham in Star Trek is Spock in the Yesteryear episode from TAS, but that would only work if the Red Angel is Burnham. TAS Spock saves Spock as a kid through the Guardian of Forever because Spock remembers that a cousin named Selek that looks exactly like his current self saved him as a kid from a wild animal which results in a predestination paradox. So unless young Burnham being saved by the Red Angel is a predestination paradox where the Red Angel is Burnham, then there is no Burnham as a Starfleet Officer in the original timeline. So take your pick, either Burnham is the Red Angel and she went back in time to preserve her existence or Burnham never existed as a Starfleet Officer in the original timeline.
The simple reason no on is mentioned is just prequel syndrome. Nothing more nothing less.
While it is still technically possible Burnam is the red angel (since at this point it could be anyone) it doesn't make any sense to claim that the timeline we see in TNG and co is one where she was munched on by that big bug thing. Assuming Burnam was a focal point (which ignores new eden and the kelpians etc) then an equally plausible theory would be saving Burnam makes the timeline we all know and love and her death is an alt one not the other way around.
It could be that the Red Angel just "saved" her to gain Spock's trust. After all, if it was just about her, it would have been easier to interact directly with Burnham, rather than give Spock a vision so he could tell his parents where to look.
> valoreah wrote: »
>
> starkaos wrote: »
>
> There is no canon source that expressly states Burnham existed in the timeline before, but there is canon source that expressly states that Burnham did not exist or was severely injured in the timeline before.
>
>
>
>
> Where? There is no dialogue or scene ever in any series - including DISCO - that proves Burnham was dead or injured before and now because of the Red Angel, she is alive. All it shows is she had a close call and the Red Angel helped. There is no inference this outcome was any different before.
>
> There is zero mention of an original or altered timeline here. This is not JJ Trek where it is expressly stated they are in an alternate timeline.
>
> We don't know what the Red Angel is all about yet. We only have bits and pieces.
>
>
>
>
> It could be that the Red Angel just "saved" her to gain Spock's trust. After all, if it was just about her, it would have been easier to interact directly with Burnham, rather than give Spock a vision so he could tell his parents where to look.
Which is exactly what I said in the post no one else apparently bothered to read.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
There doesn't need to be dialog that proves Burnham was dead or injured in a previous timeline to know that Burnham was about to be that creature's dinner or severely injured if the Red Angel's actions didn't save Burnham. If the shuttle didn't arrive in time to scare off the creature, then Burnham would have had a different fate.
Since we have a time traveler intentionally influencing the timeline, then there is an original timeline that the time traveler is trying to change.
Whatever timeline we're now in, starkaos has turned into patrickngo.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Humans can't live 500+ years, and apparently the Red Angel is from 500 years in the future, which would mean they're from the 29th Century.
What do we know of that particular time period... Starfleet posesses Temporal tech, as evidenced by the Aeon and USS Relativity. Its possible this Red Angel suit is some kind of advanced time travel EV suit. We don't know. But we DO know that 29th Century Starfleet has a Temporal Prime Directive, and has made trips into the past to correct temporal aberations. Could this be connected to that or do we have a rogue agent who is acting without orders because they see a threat but Starfleet doesn't? We don't know.
Which falsehoods? Burnham was attacked by a creature and was only saved because of the Red Angel's actions. It doesn't require Spock to realize what would happen in that situation if the aircraft didn't arrive when it did. Is there any evidence that Burnham would have survived or not be severely injured if the aircraft didn't arrive in time? If Burnham would have survived and not severely injured without the Red Angel's help, then there would have been no need for the Red Angel to save her.
If the Red Angel personally saved Burnham, then Burnham would still need to walk back home. There is no guarantee that Burnham would have come back home after being saved since she was running away from home to protect her family. So the Red Angel using Spock is the most logical choice.
If any number of things that could have happened where Burnham was saved and uninjured without the help of the Red Angel, then there was no need for the Red Angel to go back in time to save Burnham. If the Red Angel 'saved' Burnham as a method to influence Spock where Burnham was never in any real danger, then that calls into question everything about the Red Angel especially its motives and the vision that it gave Spock. We assume that the Red Angel is changing the past to prevent a terrible future, but it could end up being one of the main villains of Discovery.
The technology is from the 28th century. The occupant of the suit could still technically be anyone. Except Shatner.
Which is why you have to veto it fast. Gods and Elements bless Dr Soren for saving us.
Except we don't know that. The probe aliens might be from 500 years in the future, but all we know is that the probe aged 500 years in the temporal anomaly in just a few minutes. Also, time is messed up in the temporal anomaly. From the Light and Shadows episode, "This plasma burn looks like it happened a week ago, this one yesterday, and the third one eight minutes from now." So there is no way to know when the probe aliens or Red Angel came from based on the Light and Shadows episode.
All of the Red Angel's actions are inconsistent. Why bother saving a bunch of World War III survivors and put them on a planet in the Delta Quadrant, making Saru's race the dominant race of the planet, or Jett Reno and her crewmembers on that asteroid to prevent some alien race from destroying a bunch of planets. Saving Burnham makes as much sense as any other action done by the Red Angel.
Thought I heard Delta Quadrant for some reason. The only reason to put them that far away from Federation space is to preserve humanity.