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Who would you serve under if you could?

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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    Donatra
    starswordc wrote: »
    > @angrytarg said:
    > Picard was a seasoned battlefield commander and in charge of the flagship of the UFP. This whole "in war everything is different" argument is nonsensical as the same ships are commanded by the same people who are always prepared to do everything the situation requires. Starfleet does not work differently in war than it does in peacetime.

    Apparently it does: you'd never catch Sisko deliberately dropping his shields while in firing range of an enemy ship or bringing civilians into a war zone. The thread topic is "Who would you prefer to serve as crew for?", not "Who is your favorite captain out of universe?" (My answer happens to be the same either way, because that happens to be how I think about the question to begin with.)

    Sure, Picard commanded the Federation flagship. But based on his behavior while in command, I often question whether he deserved to. And Picard's problems were not Sisko's. Picard NEVER fought in a full-scale war, just dueled the odd alien of the week (he was apparently flying a desk for the better part of the war with the Cardassians, which is appropriate considering his aforementioned stupidity at using deflectors). Sisko was in command of a front line naval base for seven years, two of them during a declared war with a peer opponent. A real, sustained war where you're taking hundreds or thousands of casualties a week is qualitatively and quantitatively different from minor border spats and random Borg incursions, and it has very different effects on people.
    One thing that's barely touched on in the series is how long it took Picard to make captain. Apparently he was an officer for quite a long time compared to most.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
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  • thay8472thay8472 Member Posts: 6,100 Arc User
    Archer
    Archer!
    2gdi5w4mrudm.png
    Typhoon Class please!
  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,963 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    Sisko
    ryan218 wrote: »
    I think the people of Setlik III would take issue with the term 'border spat'. ;)
    I was referring to Picard's missions during the actual show there. Although the war with the Cardassians really doesn't seem to have been much more than a border dispute compared to the actual size of the Federation, considering it was apparently going on throughout three seasons of the show and yet the Cardassians were never even mentioned. (Yeah, I know, retcons, bleah.)

    But as for O'Brien, who explicitly did serve in the war, well... any war looks big when you're sitting in the middle of it.
    One thing that's barely touched on in the series is how long it took Picard to make captain. Apparently he was an officer for quite a long time compared to most.
    Picard
    -Born in 2305
    -Entered Starfleet Academy in 2323
    -Graduated in 2327
    -Was promoted captain of the Stargazer in 2333 due to his actions at the Battle of Maxia after his captain was killed.
    -Was captain of the Stargazer until it was destroyed in 2355
    -Became Captain of the ENT-D in 2364
    -Remained captain of the ENT-D, and ENT-E, until at least 2379
    What Picard did for the 9 years between the loss of the Stargazer, and him taking command of the ENT-D, has never been mentioned or discussed in any canon material.

    It took Picard 6 years to make captain, though he got it via a rather non traditional way due to what happened at Maxia

    Rank of captain (OF-6) ≠ position of commanding officer of a ship which is addressed as "captain". And that's per both real life and the canon: Sisko gets the Defiant as a secondary command while still ranked commander (OF-5), and Dax, a lieutenant commander, later commands the ship while Sisko is advising Admiral Ross, which is when we get this exchange.
    NOG: (to LCDR. Dax) Just a few more minutes, Commander.
    O'BRIEN: That's "Captain". It's an old naval tradition. Whoever's in command of a ship, regardless of rank, is referred to as Captain.
    NOG: You mean if I had to take command, I would be called Captain too?
    O'BRIEN: Cadet, by the time you took command, there'd be nobody left to call you anything.
    NOG: Good point.
    azrael605 wrote: »
    Picard fought in the same war, Enterprise did not vanish from existence during the Dominion War. Picard never used the war as an excuse to commit war crimes. Which makes him infinitely more qualified a captain than Sisko, who was basically the "I love the smell of napalm in the morning" guy from Apocalypse Now, just a heartbeat away from slaughtering civillians for no reason whatsoever, maybe closer to Sgt. Andrew Scott.
    We don't know what Picard was doing, only that he was nowhere near the front lines, which we know because our POV in DS9 is on the front lines and we never saw hide nor tail of any Sovereign-class ships for the entirety of the series. Insurrection suggests Picard was busy doing the same diplomatic and swirly energy thingie stuff he did in TNG, which isn't going to just kindly go away because there's a war on.

    Probably a good thing: he might have tried lowering his shields as a show of good faith to an enemy that doesn't have a problem ramming a retreating opponent just to make a point. ;)
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
    — Sabaton, "Great War"
    VZ9ASdg.png

    Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
  • foxman00foxman00 Member Posts: 1,478 Arc User
    Archer
    starswordc wrote: »
    ryan218 wrote: »
    I think the people of Setlik III would take issue with the term 'border spat'. ;)
    I was referring to Picard's missions during the actual show there. Although the war with the Cardassians really doesn't seem to have been much more than a border dispute compared to the actual size of the Federation, considering it was apparently going on throughout three seasons of the show and yet the Cardassians were never even mentioned. (Yeah, I know, retcons, bleah.)

    But as for O'Brien, who explicitly did serve in the war, well... any war looks big when you're sitting in the middle of it.
    One thing that's barely touched on in the series is how long it took Picard to make captain. Apparently he was an officer for quite a long time compared to most.
    Picard
    -Born in 2305
    -Entered Starfleet Academy in 2323
    -Graduated in 2327
    -Was promoted captain of the Stargazer in 2333 due to his actions at the Battle of Maxia after his captain was killed.
    -Was captain of the Stargazer until it was destroyed in 2355
    -Became Captain of the ENT-D in 2364
    -Remained captain of the ENT-D, and ENT-E, until at least 2379
    What Picard did for the 9 years between the loss of the Stargazer, and him taking command of the ENT-D, has never been mentioned or discussed in any canon material.

    It took Picard 6 years to make captain, though he got it via a rather non traditional way due to what happened at Maxia

    Rank of captain (OF-6) ≠ position of commanding officer of a ship which is addressed as "captain". And that's per both real life and the canon: Sisko gets the Defiant as a secondary command while still ranked commander (OF-5), and Dax, a lieutenant commander, later commands the ship while Sisko is advising Admiral Ross, which is when we get this exchange.
    NOG: (to LCDR. Dax) Just a few more minutes, Commander.
    O'BRIEN: That's "Captain". It's an old naval tradition. Whoever's in command of a ship, regardless of rank, is referred to as Captain.
    NOG: You mean if I had to take command, I would be called Captain too?
    O'BRIEN: Cadet, by the time you took command, there'd be nobody left to call you anything.
    NOG: Good point.
    azrael605 wrote: »
    Picard fought in the same war, Enterprise did not vanish from existence during the Dominion War. Picard never used the war as an excuse to commit war crimes. Which makes him infinitely more qualified a captain than Sisko, who was basically the "I love the smell of napalm in the morning" guy from Apocalypse Now, just a heartbeat away from slaughtering civillians for no reason whatsoever, maybe closer to Sgt. Andrew Scott.
    We don't know what Picard was doing, only that he was nowhere near the front lines, which we know because our POV in DS9 is on the front lines and we never saw hide nor tail of any Sovereign-class ships for the entirety of the series. Insurrection suggests Picard was busy doing the same diplomatic and swirly energy thingie stuff he did in TNG, which isn't going to just kindly go away because there's a war on.

    Probably a good thing: he might have tried lowering his shields as a show of good faith to an enemy that doesn't have a problem ramming a retreating opponent just to make a point. ;)

    If you read the Dominion war books, there are two entire books dedicated to what Picard was up to right up until the retake of DS9. We also know that Enterprise was defending Earth at the time of the Breen attack. Apart from that, i know the dominion war books touch on what he was up to. While it is Beta canon (books) its the best we got.

    Plus, why would you show what Enterprise was up to, in a show dedicated to DS9 and her crew?
    pjxgwS8.jpg
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,001 Arc User
    Picard saved the universe and humanity countless times and his achievements weigh a lot more than someone just pulling the trigger or commiting war crimes. The act of showing good faith to end or avoid a war requires courage and faith in what you are doing and success would have been much more valuable than any soldiers achievement of shooting someone. War shouldn't be glorified as the epitome of what humanity is capable of. And besides, as has been stated, Picard did command battles and was quite successful.
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    Donatra
    angrytarg wrote: »
    Picard saved the universe and humanity countless times and his achievements weigh a lot more than someone just pulling the trigger or commiting war crimes. The act of showing good faith to end or avoid a war requires courage and faith in what you are doing and success would have been much more valuable than any soldiers achievement of shooting someone. War shouldn't be glorified as the epitome of what humanity is capable of. And besides, as has been stated, Picard did command battles and was quite successful.
    Interesting, but you're leaving out how the Sisko ended the Dominion War. It wasn't via combat.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
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  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,963 Arc User
    edited January 2019
    Sisko
    angrytarg wrote: »
    Picard saved the universe and humanity countless times and his achievements weigh a lot more than someone just pulling the trigger or commiting war crimes. The act of showing good faith to end or avoid a war requires courage and faith in what you are doing and success would have been much more valuable than any soldiers achievement of shooting someone. War shouldn't be glorified as the epitome of what humanity is capable of. And besides, as has been stated, Picard did command battles and was quite successful.

    Keeping your damn shields up is not a "threat" or "bad faith", it's pragmatic caution. Locking weapons? That's a threat. And swanning around in enemy territory without a care in the world and then acting all surprised and peeved when the other side kicks your balls up between your ears? That's simply idiotic, and idiocy isn't a quality I'd want in my commanding officer. And that's exactly what Picard described himself doing in "The Wounded".

    Not to mention all the various times Worf recommended the most basic of precautions and Picard told him to shut up.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edflm7Hh3hs
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
    — Sabaton, "Great War"
    VZ9ASdg.png

    Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
  • foxman00foxman00 Member Posts: 1,478 Arc User
    Archer
    We might be getting a bit off topic folks :)

    I would serve under Archer. Simiply because of the amount of growth he showed over 4 seasons. Additionally, he straight away became my number one when he said to T'Pol something about "You dont know how much i am restraining myself from knocking you on your vulcan TRIBBLE" :)

    Best line ever
    pjxgwS8.jpg
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,001 Arc User
    > @markhawkman said:
    > angrytarg wrote: »
    >
    > Picard saved the universe and humanity countless times and his achievements weigh a lot more than someone just pulling the trigger or commiting war crimes. The act of showing good faith to end or avoid a war requires courage and faith in what you are doing and success would have been much more valuable than any soldiers achievement of shooting someone. War shouldn't be glorified as the epitome of what humanity is capable of. And besides, as has been stated, Picard did command battles and was quite successful.
    >
    >
    >
    > Interesting, but you're leaving out how the Sisko ended the Dominion War. It wasn't via combat.

    Didn't Odo end the war by offering the cure to the founders? I admit I forgot what wannabe magic angel Sisko was up to, I don't have the best memories of DS9s weird religious analogies in the final.
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    Sisko
    Oh look, it's the traditional Kirk vs Picard except Picard is actually given a competent instead of a guy who's basically Janeway without the psychosis.
    foxman00 wrote: »
    We might be getting a bit off topic folks :)

    I don't see it. People are discussing the merits of specific captians which is prerequisite for deciding which one you'd serve under and why.

    I'm interested to know how Picard would have stopped the Dominion War in Sisko's place as Sisko only ended it through preventing Dominion reinforcements by Deus ex Emissary. Picard probably wouldn't have even considered playing along with the Prophets and just flat out told Bajor he wasn't the messiah, he was a very naughty boy respected Starfleet captain.​​
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,001 Arc User
    That's the point, Sisko didn't stop anything if it wasn't for magic. Otherwise he was playing along and whining that all the bad he does was forced on him, like everyone always does.

    What Picard might have done we can't say. Maybe not starting it by poking around Dominion territory, maybe given a speech to convince everyone to calm the oink down, maybe convince the other powers to help by not lying and building trust. Picard just imbues a hope for humanity and I respect his leadership style. Sisko is just one in a bunch of normies if he wasn't a magic alien FROM THE BEGINNING DUUN-DUUN-DUUUUN!

    I like DS9 and Sisko is a strong character, but not one I'd like to take notes from. He's troubled and impulsive and looks for excuses. Janeway is simply cray-cray.
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • risian6#1997 risian6 Member Posts: 128 Arc User
    Lorca
    angrytarg wrote: »
    That's the point, Sisko didn't stop anything if it wasn't for magic. Otherwise he was playing along and whining that all the bad he does was forced on him, like everyone always does.

    What Picard might have done we can't say. Maybe not starting it by poking around Dominion territory, maybe given a speech to convince everyone to calm the oink down, maybe convince the other powers to help by not lying and building trust. Picard just imbues a hope for humanity and I respect his leadership style. Sisko is just one in a bunch of normies if he wasn't a magic alien FROM THE BEGINNING DUUN-DUUN-DUUUUN!

    I like DS9 and Sisko is a strong character, but not one I'd like to take notes from. He's troubled and impulsive and looks for excuses. Janeway is simply cray-cray.


    Well, to be fair, I think it is rather easy to blame it entirely on Sisko (and him not being Picard).

    If two sides are fighting, both are usually to blame. And in the case of the Jem'Hadar/Dominion, they're not exactly the most reasonable people who are willing to listen to why someone entered their territory - something they weren't exactly aware of either.

    Picard is a great example for humanity indeed - but that great example of talking rather than fighting only works when you're not dealing with a barbaric and blindlessly devoted people. I don't think Picard would have fared much better if it was the Enterprise, rather than the Odyssey first going through the wormhole. There really wasn't much time for talking anyway during that encounter, if I remember correctly.

    But anyway, coming back to my earlier comment: this is why the distinction is made between the captains. Some of them never made certain decisions because they were never in similar situations. It is impossible to tell whether they would have done something, if they had be in a comparable situation. Hence why Sisko and Lorca would be my preferred options in times of war and in STO, but I still agree that based on what we have seen, Picard is, overall my favourite captain.


    (Also, in the context of STO, it can actually be shown that it was the Dominion who first messed with the Alpha quadrant.)
    Formerly known as Risian4. Risian6 is my new PS4-account. Fleetcaptain5 is my main PC account. I hope to actively play again on PC in a few months.

    Now that that's made clear... on to the next issue: when are playable Voth coming, and where's are my T7 Vesta and C-store purchasable real life shuttle? :)
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    Donatra
    angrytarg wrote: »
    > @markhawkman said:
    > angrytarg wrote: »
    >
    > Picard saved the universe and humanity countless times and his achievements weigh a lot more than someone just pulling the trigger or commiting war crimes. The act of showing good faith to end or avoid a war requires courage and faith in what you are doing and success would have been much more valuable than any soldiers achievement of shooting someone. War shouldn't be glorified as the epitome of what humanity is capable of. And besides, as has been stated, Picard did command battles and was quite successful.
    >
    > Interesting, but you're leaving out how the Sisko ended the Dominion War. It wasn't via combat.

    Didn't Odo end the war by offering the cure to the founders? I admit I forgot what wannabe magic angel Sisko was up to, I don't have the best memories of DS9s weird religious analogies in the final.
    He did two major things: 1: convincing the Cardassians to change sides. He had help, but even so. 2: a deus ex machina so big that STO players have to deal with it. Towards the end of the war the Dominion sent a massive fleet into the wormhole and the Sisko entered the Celestial Temple to ask the Prophets to stop it. Yeah Karukan's fleet.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,963 Arc User
    Sisko
    I liked SF Debris' description of the "Sacrifice of Angels" situation. Sisko's done everything he can as a military officer, and it wasn't enough, so now he's making a Hail Mary, having to turn to Sisko the religious figure and fly into the wilderness to beg for literal divine intervention. He gets it... but at a price: being Space Muhammad will now start to consume more and more of his life, and he'll never get a happy ending for his own story.
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
    — Sabaton, "Great War"
    VZ9ASdg.png

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  • ryan218ryan218 Member Posts: 36,106 Arc User
    Sisko
    starswordc wrote: »
    I liked SF Debris' description of the "Sacrifice of Angels" situation. Sisko's done everything he can as a military officer, and it wasn't enough, so now he's making a Hail Mary, having to turn to Sisko the religious figure and fly into the wilderness to beg for literal divine intervention. He gets it... but at a price: being Space Muhammad will now start to consume more and more of his life, and he'll never get a happy ending for his own story.

    This. The price the Prophets demanded of Sisko for stopping the Dominion Fleet was that he would "find no rest" on Bajor. He basically blackmailed the Prophets by saying 'either you help me, or I'm going to get myself killed fighting this Dominion armada'.
  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,963 Arc User
    Sisko
    azrael605 wrote: »
    Archer almost started an interstellar war over his mangy flea ridden dog. He should have never been in command of a flipping garbage scow.

    Archer is why nepotism is bad policy. :tongue:
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
    — Sabaton, "Great War"
    VZ9ASdg.png

    Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    Donatra
    azrael605 wrote: »
    Archer almost started an interstellar war over his mangy flea ridden dog. He should have never been in command of a flipping garbage scow.
    Actually, part of the point of the episode is that life isn't fair and sometimes you have to take the blame for things that aren't actually your fault in order to preserve the greater good.

    IE: no reasonable person would have automatically assumed it was a sacred tree worthy of becoming offended over. Not harming in any way but "insulting" the TREE?!??! The episode gets even weirder when Archer finds out the proper way to apologize is to do a "sectioning" ritual IE cut the tree to pieces with a chainsaw.... what? why???? It's a SACRED tree, how is the proper way to apologize for touching it to cut it to pieces?

    But that was the actual point, the Kreetassans are exceptionally eccentric people, but Archer needed their assistance so he had to play by their stupid rules. Also, at no point did the Kreetassans act interested in starting a war. What they DID do was refuse to trade with Archer.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,963 Arc User
    edited January 2019
    Sisko
    azrael605 wrote: »
    Archer almost started an interstellar war over his mangy flea ridden dog. He should have never been in command of a flipping garbage scow.
    Actually, part of the point of the episode is that life isn't fair and sometimes you have to take the blame for things that aren't actually your fault in order to preserve the greater good.

    IE: no reasonable person would have automatically assumed it was a sacred tree worthy of becoming offended over. Not harming in any way but "insulting" the TREE?!??! The episode gets even weirder when Archer finds out the proper way to apologize is to do a "sectioning" ritual IE cut the tree to pieces with a chainsaw.... what? why???? It's a SACRED tree, how is the proper way to apologize for touching it to cut it to pieces?

    But that was the actual point, the Kreetassans are exceptionally eccentric people, but Archer needed their assistance so he had to play by their stupid rules. Also, at no point did the Kreetassans act interested in starting a war. What they DID do was refuse to trade with Archer.

    Yeah, except:
    • Instead of A: doing some basic research ahead of time on the people he has to negotiate with (like asking T'Pol, who's supposed to be his "local guide" of sorts), he B: just swans in like he always does and expects people to just tolerate the "ugly American" boor* who brought his dog to a major diplomatic function. Because he's a xenophobic idiot.
    • Instead of A: immediately asking how one atones for the insult so he can get on with his mission to resupply the ship, he B: starts feet-stomping and screaming about how he's personally going to urinate on the trees from a shuttlecraft just to flip the bird at the people he's negotiating with. Because he's a xenophobic idiot.

    Some days they tried to write Archer like Picard when he needed to be a Kirk. Some days they wrote him like Kelvin!Kirk when he needed to be anybody else. :tongue:

    * Note: I'm American. Just so's we're clear that I'm talking about a particular stereotype of American tourist, not insulting Americans in general.
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
    — Sabaton, "Great War"
    VZ9ASdg.png

    Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    Donatra
    starswordc wrote: »
    Yeah, except:
    • Instead of A: doing some basic research ahead of time on the people he has to negotiate with (like asking T'Pol, who's supposed to be his "local guide" of sorts), he B: just swans in like he always does and expects people to just tolerate the "ugly American" boor* who brought his dog to a major diplomatic function. Because he's a xenophobic idiot.
    • Instead of A: immediately asking how one atones for the insult so he can get on with his mission to resupply the ship, he B: starts feet-stomping and screaming about how he's personally going to urinate on the trees from a shuttlecraft just to flip the bird at the people he's negotiating with. Because he's a xenophobic idiot.
    Actually he DID do research. He went to the effort of asking the Kreetassans if it was ok to bring Porthos with him! Also it wasn't a "major" diplomatic function. It was him visiting to buy things from the Kreetassans. It wasn't even first contact. Oh and what happened on first contact? The Kreetassans visited the Enterprise and got offended at the sight of people eating in public. Yes, really. SO offended that they left the ship and Archer had to apologize for offending them to get hem to finish discussing why they were there in the first place.

    Like I said before, the Kreetassans were intentionally written so that their customs were NOT reasonable. I mean seriously, how many races are there in the Star Trek universe who get drastically offended at the sight of someone eating in public? ALSO, making it worse was that the Kreetassans never directly told Archer how he'd offended them, they just got angry and either left or told him to leave. It doesn't make sense for a space faring race that has conducted trade with several other races in the past to not expect other races to follow different customs. You speak of "basic research", well, wouldn't it be reasonable for the Kreetassans to acknowledge the fact that other races think their customs are insane? Surely they've met enough other races to know that literally NO ONE in the galaxy thinks their customs are reasonable.

    It's the old thing of "My customs are more important than your customs". Which is why Archer got so angry at them. He realized that the Kreetassans were happy to talk about how offended they were and to demand apologies, but at the same time the Kreetassans didn't spend a moment's thought towards extending the same consideration to others that they demanded for themselves. Porthos almost died because of some air-borne pathogen that the Kreetassans knew about but didn't feel the need to talk about.

    That is why Archer was so angry with them. The Kreetassans were equally to blame for what happened but refused to acknowledge that.
    azrael605 wrote: »
    Sorry Mark but T'Pol repeatedly told Archer he was risking war with how he was treating the Kreetassans, who were already extending themselves to the utmost to a person who had previously caused them serious offense.
    Porthos desecrating the sacred tree was not the cause though. T'Pol was talking about him deciding to intentionally antagonize the Kreetassans instead of apologizing... again.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,001 Arc User
    When did any alien ambassador - trained diplomat - ever have the slightest clue about customs aboard a federation ship? All they ever did, throughout the show, was being offended or disgusted. The only ones ever even required to learn about foreign cultures were the protagonists 😁
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,963 Arc User
    edited January 2019
    Sisko
    > @angrytarg said:
    > When did any alien ambassador - trained diplomat - ever have the slightest clue about customs aboard a federation ship? All they ever did, throughout the show, was being offended or disgusted. The only ones ever even required to learn about foreign cultures were the protagonists 😁

    That argument works in some cases, but not here. It's not like this is some esoteric high-level trade deal or cultural exchange: Archer is trying to buy critical parts for his ship, and if he doesn't get them, he has to wait for UE to get around to sending a warp 3 Daedalus-class or ECS transport with his stuff before he can continue his mission. He needs them a lot more than they need him, so it's his JOB to just suck it up and act like a professional worthy of his rank and uniform instead of like a two-year-old. And this is far from the only time he pulls BS like this.

    For crying out loud, a professional wouldn't think to bring his dog along in the first place, it's asking for trouble. He's lucky they just thought the dog was rude, as opposed to crunchy and good with ketchup.
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
    — Sabaton, "Great War"
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    Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    Donatra
    starswordc wrote: »
    He needs them a lot more than they need him, so it's his JOB to just suck it up and act like a professional worthy of his rank and uniform instead of like a two-year-old. And this is far from the only time he pulls BS like this.
    "suck it up" is exactly what he does do.... after the Kreetassans stamped their feet like spoiled children over something so minor most people wouldn't have noticed.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,963 Arc User
    edited January 2019
    Sisko
    starswordc wrote: »
    He needs them a lot more than they need him, so it's his JOB to just suck it up and act like a professional worthy of his rank and uniform instead of like a two-year-old. And this is far from the only time he pulls BS like this.
    "suck it up" is exactly what he does do.... after the Kreetassans stamped their feet like spoiled children over something so minor most people wouldn't have noticed.

    No, he only sucks it up and does what any captain worthy of his rank pins ought to have done to begin with after spending the whole episode behaving like a bratty teenager whose mom took away his Xbox. Archer doesn't have the luxury of not paying attention to local customs here, because he isn't negotiating from a position of strength:
    • The Kreetassans are on their homeworld, i.e. self-sufficient unless stated otherwise.
    • Archer, on the other hand, is on an unreliable, undergunned, underpowered prototype starship that is currently far beyond United Earth borders and supply lines.
    Any sensible officer should know from the beginning that under those circumstances, behaving like you're God's gift to the galaxy and superior to the opinions of the locals is a very good way to both wreck your own mission, and to give the locals a very poor first impression of the service, state, and in this case species you represent.

    Cultural tolerance does have its limits, but most of the time it is a very good policy to follow. When in Rome...
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
    — Sabaton, "Great War"
    VZ9ASdg.png

    Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
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