The main source of the Crossfield's length is the nacelles. Probably because she's in a flat configuration. Thus if the nacelles need to "see" each other, they would have to be longer. Mass wise... doesn't feel that bigger than an Excelsior honestly. She's just a lot more spread out.
The Crossfield-class is also a testbed for new technology, which is often much bigger than it is in later iterations (see computers: my cell phone is more powerful than a 1980s vintage supercomputer). Because spore drive obviously failed (since it wasn't adopted widely), there were no later iterations.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
It's Discovery's actual story/plots that fundamentally break any pretense of continuity with the prime timeline.
So... you know for a FACT what happened in those years between Cage and TOS? Because I'm pretty sure that its a blank slate, just like the period between the launch of the Enterprise-B and the Battle of Narendra III.
The Crossfield-class is also a testbed for new technology, which is often much bigger than it is in later iterations (see computers: my cell phone is more powerful than a 1980s vintage supercomputer). Because spore drive obviously failed (since it wasn't adopted widely), there were no later iterations.
Exactly. And with the Crossfield being more specialized than the Excelsior (IE Spore Drive reliant structural components like the spinny saucer bits)... resource cost would be prohibitive to retrofit existing ones or alter the design to stick to traditional tech. So Crossfield class ships probably weren't produced much, if at all, after the end of the Fed-Klingon War, unlike the Excelsior, which became a mainline cruiser, and was still active all the way through the Dominion War 100 years later.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
Stopped reading after this. This "anyone who disagrees with me is a white knight" stuff is getting very tiresome.
But why? It's a very convenient approach. It ensures the only answers that count are those that agree with you, thereby validating your claims.
This really simplifies things.
And this is why i hate coming to STO forums... Because no one gives a toss about anyone else, and every debate no matter how on point or off point is split like a hair so many times until the point is lost. It goes beyond frustrating watching this all the time.
The main source of the Crossfield's length is the nacelles. Probably because she's in a flat configuration. Thus if the nacelles need to "see" each other, they would have to be longer. Mass wise... doesn't feel that bigger than an Excelsior honestly. She's just a lot more spread out.
The Crossfield-class is also a testbed for new technology, which is often much bigger than it is in later iterations (see computers: my cell phone is more powerful than a 1980s vintage supercomputer). Because spore drive obviously failed (since it wasn't adopted widely), there were no later iterations.
Spore drive didn't fail, in fact it was proven time and time again to be a complete success (and starfleet was planning to roll out the drive to the rest of the fleet). The project had to be shut down due to mitigating circumstances well beyond the control of Starfleet due to the Terran empires destructive mycelial power core on the emperor's flagship. Nothing Starfleet could of predicted and neither would they have known.
Starfleet was forced to abandon the project, but easily written off as a success.
Exactly. And with the Crossfield being more specialized than the Excelsior (IE Spore Drive reliant structural components like the spinny saucer bits)... resource cost would be prohibitive to retrofit existing ones or alter the design to stick to traditional tech. So Crossfield class ships probably weren't produced much, if at all, after the end of the Fed-Klingon War, unlike the Excelsior, which became a mainline cruiser, and was still active all the way through the Dominion War 100 years later.
It is unknown how many crossfields existed back then, or how many were involved in science research. all we know for certain is that the discovery and glenn were assigned to the spore drive research. Who knows what other crossfield class ships were up to. For all we know another crossfield was discovering ways to cross transwarp thresholds and while early tests continue to prove positive, it was decided a new ship class would be needed to pilot this concept further and that crossfield was assigned to other research.
The point is, that there is not enough information to say for certain what the state of the crossfield class is like until more information is revealed.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Stopped reading after this. This "anyone who disagrees with me is a white knight" stuff is getting very tiresome.
But why? It's a very convenient approach. It ensures the only answers that count are those that agree with you, thereby validating your claims.
This really simplifies things.
And this is why i hate coming to STO forums... Because no one gives a toss about anyone else, and every debate no matter how on point or off point is split like a hair so many times until the point is lost. It goes beyond frustrating watching this all the time.
The main source of the Crossfield's length is the nacelles. Probably because she's in a flat configuration. Thus if the nacelles need to "see" each other, they would have to be longer. Mass wise... doesn't feel that bigger than an Excelsior honestly. She's just a lot more spread out.
The Crossfield-class is also a testbed for new technology, which is often much bigger than it is in later iterations (see computers: my cell phone is more powerful than a 1980s vintage supercomputer). Because spore drive obviously failed (since it wasn't adopted widely), there were no later iterations.
Spore drive didn't fail, in fact it was proven time and time again to be a complete success (and starfleet was planning to roll out the drive to the rest of the fleet).
What was proven it that it fundamentally works, but not that it would work sustainable.
- When they used the Tardigrade as navigator, it slowly killed the creature
- When they used a human with Tardigrade DNA, he became mentally unstable.
- An entire ship was lost due to a misjump.
- During one of its jumps, the Discovery accidentally jumped several months into the future.
That all doesn't sound like it's working in the sense of "let's make this the new FTL drive of the future."
It's more like that teleportation/transporter tech used by terrorists in that one episode of TNG where the terrorists capture Crusher to provide medical aid to the terrorists who get slowly sick by repeated use of the technology. The drawbacks could never be fixed and the tech was abandoned everywhere else.
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0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,689Community Moderator
It is unknown how many crossfields existed back then, or how many were involved in science research. all we know for certain is that the discovery and glenn were assigned to the spore drive research. Who knows what other crossfield class ships were up to. For all we know another crossfield was discovering ways to cross transwarp thresholds and while early tests continue to prove positive, it was decided a new ship class would be needed to pilot this concept further and that crossfield was assigned to other research.
The point is, that there is not enough information to say for certain what the state of the crossfield class is like until more information is revealed.
There is that, although current available evidence pretty much says the Crossfields were purpose built. There's no real reason for a ship to have rotation capability on the saucers like the Crossfields. Only time we see this in action is with the use of the Spore Drive. We know of at least 2, Discovery and Glenn. There may have been a third, USS Andromeda, if the named ship card from Star Trek Adversaries is to be believed, and we don't know if there was a USS Crossfield.
If they are going to build a few more... I can see them not integrating the rotation system, which for a brand new ship would be an easy conversion. But for existing ones like Discovery herself... not so easy. We're talking a potential rebuild of the entire saucer.
What was proven it that it fundamentally works, but not that it would work sustainable.
- When they used the Tardigrade as navigator, it slowly killed the creature
- When they used a human with Tardigrade DNA, he became mentally unstable.
- An entire ship was lost due to a misjump.
- During one of its jumps, the Discovery accidentally jumped several months into the future.
Point by point response:
True. Also came from lack of knowledge of Tartegrade biology and overworking Ripper.
Maybe short term, but the effects on Stamet's personality switched him from being a rather grumpy, antisocial individual who focused on his work to a more outgoing, friendly person. And clearly he's still fit for duty as he was cleared for duty after everything was said and done.
True, however this came about from an intentional act of sabotage. Lorca changed the coordinates last minute while the drive was spooling up to achieve his own goals.
Not entirely accurate due to the circumstances of that jump, which were in combat with the ISS Charon and trying to outrun a mycelial shockwave while at warp.
But still the data collected by Discovery proves that Spore Tech shows its promising, but combined with the data they collected from the Mirror Universe and their Spore Reactor... misuse is the biggest threat ever. Discovery is the only ship with an intact Spore Drive. The Tech is most likely going to be locked down except in cases of extreme emergency.
The tech is sound... but there are just not any safeguards in place. Perhaps the Bio-Neural Circuitry used in the late 24th Century can negate the need for a living navigator, but the tech just doesn't exist in the 23rd.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
The ship lost due to a misjump would be the USS Glenn, which struck a Hawking radiation firewall, an undetectable phenomenon (at least by 23rd-century sensors) probably produced by the decay of a quantum singularity in the area. The impact caused the spore drive to "spin out", both figuratively and literally - all those aboard were twisted through three dimensions as they died, leaving rather horrific-looking corpses.
So, you've got a drive that can get you anywhere nearly instantly, but when damaged during operation, rather than simply dropping you back into normal space the way a warp drive does, it kills everyone aboard in an extremely painful fashion. Coupled with its other drawbacks, I'd shelve it myself, right beside the soliton-wave drive. (Although probably not in the same warehouse as that WWII-era wooden crate with the scorchmarks where the identifying markings were...)
The Crossfield is also in scale with the TNG retcon of the Excelsior and the ENT retcon of the Conni (which the DSC Conni is also the same size as).
I guess it's only 'canon breaking' when DSC rescales ships.
And yeah, it's prime. The word has one singular meaning, it means the timeline in which the USS Kelvin wasn't destroyed by Nero. Nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't mean 'only the shows the OP likes'. It doesn't mean 'looks like it was made of cardboard in the 60s', it doesn't mean 'any Trek except the current newest series'.
I wonder if people were really this pathetic when TNG came out but just didn't have the internet to subject normal people to it.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
I wonder if people were really this pathetic when TNG came out but just didn't have the internet to subject normal people to it.
Yes, they were. And the media of the day went to Trek conventions all over the USA to cover the fans' negative reaction to the new Star Trek show, gleefully reporting that its demise was well underway even before we ever got to see the space-jellyfish love episode.
And yeah, it's prime. The word has one singular meaning, it means the timeline in which the USS Kelvin wasn't destroyed by Nero. Nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't mean 'only the shows the OP likes'. It doesn't mean 'looks like it was made of cardboard in the 60s', it doesn't mean 'any Trek except the current newest series'.
There are two different types of prime, the Prime Timeline and the Prime Universe. Setting Discovery in the Prime Timeline means that all the events that happened in Discovery happened 10 years before TOS while setting Discovery in the Prime Universe can mean that certain events from TOS don't happen 10 years after Discovery if Discovery is in a new timeline. There is far too much time travel in Enterprise that could have easily resulted in a new timeline.
Then there is the nature of the Spore Drive which allows for interdimensional travel. Discovery might have started in the Prime Universe, but there is no way to know if Discovery ended up in the Prime Universe. For all we know, each Spore Jump might transport the Discovery to a parallel universe.
If I had £1 for everytime a Star Trek series broke canon I would be very rich.
I was watching Season 2 of TNG last night and the amount of things in that season alone that was a retcon from TOS and then later retconned AGAIN in later seasons of TNG and DS9 is astonishing.
I am sorry but when it comes to "canon" it is so inconsistent that nothing and I mean nothing is set on stone.
As far as TrekYards being the canon kings.... ERM NO! just NO!
5
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,689Community Moderator
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
And yeah, it's prime. The word has one singular meaning, it means the timeline in which the USS Kelvin wasn't destroyed by Nero. Nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't mean 'only the shows the OP likes'. It doesn't mean 'looks like it was made of cardboard in the 60s', it doesn't mean 'any Trek except the current newest series'.
There are two different types of prime, the Prime Timeline and the Prime Universe. Setting Discovery in the Prime Timeline means that all the events that happened in Discovery happened 10 years before TOS while setting Discovery in the Prime Universe can mean that certain events from TOS don't happen 10 years after Discovery if Discovery is in a new timeline. There is far too much time travel in Enterprise that could have easily resulted in a new timeline.
Then there is the nature of the Spore Drive which allows for interdimensional travel. Discovery might have started in the Prime Universe, but there is no way to know if Discovery ended up in the Prime Universe. For all we know, each Spore Jump might transport the Discovery to a parallel universe.
No there isn't. Prime is the word used for the timeline that isn't the Kelvin Timeline (but is also used to separate the main timeline from other alternate timelines and universes like the AGT timeline or Mirror universe).
Prime Universe is a term you made up.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
I wonder if people were really this pathetic when TNG came out but just didn't have the internet to subject normal people to it.
Yes, they were. And the media of the day went to Trek conventions all over the USA to cover the fans' negative reaction to the new Star Trek show, gleefully reporting that its demise was well underway even before we ever got to see the space-jellyfish love episode.
I wonder if people were really this pathetic when TNG came out but just didn't have the internet to subject normal people to it.
Why, yes, yes they were. Possibly more so, but with the Internet still in the bulletin-board stage, the amplification factor wasn't there yet.
I suspected it was just lack of internet. I've plenty of (mostly archived) mouth and brain frothing from the KT and even ENT but all I have for the other series is retrospective (for VGR) or anecdotal (for everything else).
I look forward to the Picard series so we can all look back on DSC with nostalgia and then the new animated series so we can all start to like the Picard show again.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
And yeah, it's prime. The word has one singular meaning, it means the timeline in which the USS Kelvin wasn't destroyed by Nero. Nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't mean 'only the shows the OP likes'. It doesn't mean 'looks like it was made of cardboard in the 60s', it doesn't mean 'any Trek except the current newest series'.
There are two different types of prime, the Prime Timeline and the Prime Universe. Setting Discovery in the Prime Timeline means that all the events that happened in Discovery happened 10 years before TOS while setting Discovery in the Prime Universe can mean that certain events from TOS don't happen 10 years after Discovery if Discovery is in a new timeline. There is far too much time travel in Enterprise that could have easily resulted in a new timeline.
Then there is the nature of the Spore Drive which allows for interdimensional travel. Discovery might have started in the Prime Universe, but there is no way to know if Discovery ended up in the Prime Universe. For all we know, each Spore Jump might transport the Discovery to a parallel universe.
No there isn't. Prime is the word used for the timeline that isn't the Kelvin Timeline (but is also used to separate the main timeline from other alternate timelines and universes like the AGT timeline or Mirror universe).
Prime Universe is a term you made up.
As much as I would like to take credit for it, Prime Universe is not a term I made up. There is almost 45,000 search results in Google for "star trek" +"prime universe". It was likely used to distinguish the main universe from the Mirror Universe. Prime Timeline was only created as a result of Star Trek 2009.
The Prime Universe is a physical location while the Prime Timeline is the sequence of events that were shown in the Star Trek series. Changing the events in a timeline creates a new timeline. However, minor changes to the events might cause the new timeline to reintegrate with the original timeline. So stealing a whale and giving Transparent Aluminum in the 1980s might cause the new timeline to reintegrate with the old timeline while killing 7 million humans would create a new timeline due to the number of differences between having those 7 million people exist and having those 7 million people cease to exist. So the Borg assimilating Earth in the 21st Century or having the USA stay out of World War II would still be in the Prime Universe, but a different timeline since they would create a sequence of events vastly different from the original timeline.
> @artan42 said: > brian334 wrote: » > > artan42 wrote: » > > I wonder if people were really this pathetic when TNG came out but just didn't have the internet to subject normal people to it. > > > > > Yes, they were. And the media of the day went to Trek conventions all over the USA to cover the fans' negative reaction to the new Star Trek show, gleefully reporting that its demise was well underway even before we ever got to see the space-jellyfish love episode. > > > > jonsills wrote: » > > artan42 wrote: » > > I wonder if people were really this pathetic when TNG came out but just didn't have the internet to subject normal people to it. > > > > Why, yes, yes they were. Possibly more so, but with the Internet still in the bulletin-board stage, the amplification factor wasn't there yet. > > > > > I suspected it was just lack of internet. I've plenty of (mostly archived) mouth and brain frothing from the KT and even ENT but all I have for the other series is retrospective (for VGR) or anecdotal (for everything else). > > I look forward to the Picard series so we can all look back on DSC with nostalgia and then the new animated series so we can all start to like the Picard show again.
The first season? No. I hope it goes to the trash bin it deserves. Second season looks better, but I'm not holding my breath. Especially if that episode I heard about that Discovery is going back to visit the Telosians. After that planet has been strictly forbidden under pain of death as I recall.
Picard series, once again I'll wait and see.
Cause as first seasons go, I'd rather watch the first season of Voyager and I thought it was boring as hell.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
As much as I would like to take credit for it, Prime Universe is not a term I made up. There is almost 45,000 search results in Google for "star trek" +"prime universe". It was likely used to distinguish the main universe from the Mirror Universe. Prime Timeline was only created as a result of Star Trek 2009.
The Prime Universe is a physical location while the Prime Timeline is the sequence of events that were shown in the Star Trek series. Changing the events in a timeline creates a new timeline. However, minor changes to the events might cause the new timeline to reintegrate with the original timeline. So stealing a whale and giving Transparent Aluminum in the 1980s might cause the new timeline to reintegrate with the old timeline while killing 7 million humans would create a new timeline due to the number of differences between having those 7 million people exist and having those 7 million people cease to exist. So the Borg assimilating Earth in the 21st Century or having the USA stay out of World War II would still be in the Prime Universe, but a different timeline since they would create a sequence of events vastly different from the original timeline.
I'm pretty sure that its just the fact that Prime Universe and Prime Timeline just mean the same dang thing and are used interchangably.
What you're trying to push is overly complicated to the point of confusing everyone. Probably until they give up trying to make sense of it. Because if we go by what you say... then literally NOTHING in Star Trek is in the "Prime Timeline" or whatever because every time we have a time travel episode, we branch off into a new reality that is identical to the last save one detail, the crew "came back". So the episode of TOS with the Guardian of Forever? Was the end of one universe or timeline or whatever and the start of another. The events of Star Trek 4? Same. First Contact? Same.
Where does it stop? Because basically...
This is what you're advocating. Speggetti.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
As much as I would like to take credit for it, Prime Universe is not a term I made up. There is almost 45,000 search results in Google for "star trek" +"prime universe". It was likely used to distinguish the main universe from the Mirror Universe. Prime Timeline was only created as a result of Star Trek 2009.
The Prime Universe is a physical location while the Prime Timeline is the sequence of events that were shown in the Star Trek series. Changing the events in a timeline creates a new timeline. However, minor changes to the events might cause the new timeline to reintegrate with the original timeline. So stealing a whale and giving Transparent Aluminum in the 1980s might cause the new timeline to reintegrate with the old timeline while killing 7 million humans would create a new timeline due to the number of differences between having those 7 million people exist and having those 7 million people cease to exist. So the Borg assimilating Earth in the 21st Century or having the USA stay out of World War II would still be in the Prime Universe, but a different timeline since they would create a sequence of events vastly different from the original timeline.
I'm pretty sure that its just the fact that Prime Universe and Prime Timeline just mean the same dang thing and are used interchangably.
Where does it stop? Because basically...
This is what you're advocating. Speggetti.
For the most part they are used interchangeably since everything gets fixed in the end so the Prime Timeline is the Prime Universe. However, there is the issue of what happens to the other timelines. Do they get replaced or do they still exist? Which results in the timelines looking like Speggetti. So for First Contact, the Enterprise crew doesn't save their timeline from the Borg. They create a new timeline where they saved the 21st Century from the Borg while their original timeline and the assimilated Earth timeline still exist. If time travel doesn't give you a migraine by thinking about it, then you are doing it wrong.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
As much as I would like to take credit for it, Prime Universe is not a term I made up. There is almost 45,000 search results in Google for "star trek" +"prime universe". It was likely used to distinguish the main universe from the Mirror Universe. Prime Timeline was only created as a result of Star Trek 2009.
The Prime Universe is a physical location while the Prime Timeline is the sequence of events that were shown in the Star Trek series. Changing the events in a timeline creates a new timeline. However, minor changes to the events might cause the new timeline to reintegrate with the original timeline. So stealing a whale and giving Transparent Aluminum in the 1980s might cause the new timeline to reintegrate with the old timeline while killing 7 million humans would create a new timeline due to the number of differences between having those 7 million people exist and having those 7 million people cease to exist. So the Borg assimilating Earth in the 21st Century or having the USA stay out of World War II would still be in the Prime Universe, but a different timeline since they would create a sequence of events vastly different from the original timeline.
Ah, so it's a meaningless term other people made up you use after an appeal to popularity. That changes my point so much.
So.. Prime Timeline is an actual term that means all the Trek that's not in the timeline were the Kelvin was destroyed (but also used for the main timeline excluding alternate timelines/universes like AGT or Mirror Universe) and Prime Universe is a term made up by persons anonymous.
You're correct that there should be no singular timeline but you don't follow it to its logical conclusion. Warp Drive is a time warp drive as established in The Cage therefore, every single time someone across the galaxy uses warp a new timeline is created as it's time travel. So even singular episodes can't be said to be in the same timeline as their beginning and end are altered as soon as they travel in time.
Not enough? FtL communication? Time Travel. More timelines every time a space phone is used.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
As much as I would like to take credit for it, Prime Universe is not a term I made up. There is almost 45,000 search results in Google for "star trek" +"prime universe". It was likely used to distinguish the main universe from the Mirror Universe. Prime Timeline was only created as a result of Star Trek 2009.
The Prime Universe is a physical location while the Prime Timeline is the sequence of events that were shown in the Star Trek series. Changing the events in a timeline creates a new timeline. However, minor changes to the events might cause the new timeline to reintegrate with the original timeline. So stealing a whale and giving Transparent Aluminum in the 1980s might cause the new timeline to reintegrate with the old timeline while killing 7 million humans would create a new timeline due to the number of differences between having those 7 million people exist and having those 7 million people cease to exist. So the Borg assimilating Earth in the 21st Century or having the USA stay out of World War II would still be in the Prime Universe, but a different timeline since they would create a sequence of events vastly different from the original timeline.
Ah, so it's a meaningless term other people made up you use after an appeal to popularity. That changes my point so much.
So.. Prime Timeline is an actual term that means all the Trek that's not in the timeline were the Kelvin was destroyed (but also used for the main timeline excluding alternate timelines/universes like AGT or Mirror Universe) and Prime Universe is a term made up by persons anonymous.
You're correct that there should be no singular timeline but you don't follow it to its logical conclusion. Warp Drive is a time warp drive as established in The Cage therefore, every single time someone across the galaxy uses warp a new timeline is created as it's time travel. So even singular episodes can't be said to be in the same timeline as their beginning and end are altered as soon as they travel in time.
Not enough? FtL communication? Time Travel. More timelines every time a space phone is used.
Might have been the case with The Cage, but interstellar communication and travel for most of the other episodes of Star Trek is based around subspace. So the USS Enterprise might have created a new timeline every time it used its time warp drive until it was changed back to a standard warp drive. Although there are ways to mess around with time that deals with our perception of time and not changing the past like Voyager's A Blink of an Eye where an alien world experiences thousands of years in just a few days.
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The Crossfield-class is also a testbed for new technology, which is often much bigger than it is in later iterations (see computers: my cell phone is more powerful than a 1980s vintage supercomputer). Because spore drive obviously failed (since it wasn't adopted widely), there were no later iterations.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
So... you know for a FACT what happened in those years between Cage and TOS? Because I'm pretty sure that its a blank slate, just like the period between the launch of the Enterprise-B and the Battle of Narendra III.
Exactly. And with the Crossfield being more specialized than the Excelsior (IE Spore Drive reliant structural components like the spinny saucer bits)... resource cost would be prohibitive to retrofit existing ones or alter the design to stick to traditional tech. So Crossfield class ships probably weren't produced much, if at all, after the end of the Fed-Klingon War, unlike the Excelsior, which became a mainline cruiser, and was still active all the way through the Dominion War 100 years later.
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And this is why i hate coming to STO forums... Because no one gives a toss about anyone else, and every debate no matter how on point or off point is split like a hair so many times until the point is lost. It goes beyond frustrating watching this all the time.
Spore drive didn't fail, in fact it was proven time and time again to be a complete success (and starfleet was planning to roll out the drive to the rest of the fleet). The project had to be shut down due to mitigating circumstances well beyond the control of Starfleet due to the Terran empires destructive mycelial power core on the emperor's flagship. Nothing Starfleet could of predicted and neither would they have known.
Starfleet was forced to abandon the project, but easily written off as a success.
It is unknown how many crossfields existed back then, or how many were involved in science research. all we know for certain is that the discovery and glenn were assigned to the spore drive research. Who knows what other crossfield class ships were up to. For all we know another crossfield was discovering ways to cross transwarp thresholds and while early tests continue to prove positive, it was decided a new ship class would be needed to pilot this concept further and that crossfield was assigned to other research.
The point is, that there is not enough information to say for certain what the state of the crossfield class is like until more information is revealed.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
- When they used the Tardigrade as navigator, it slowly killed the creature
- When they used a human with Tardigrade DNA, he became mentally unstable.
- An entire ship was lost due to a misjump.
- During one of its jumps, the Discovery accidentally jumped several months into the future.
That all doesn't sound like it's working in the sense of "let's make this the new FTL drive of the future."
It's more like that teleportation/transporter tech used by terrorists in that one episode of TNG where the terrorists capture Crusher to provide medical aid to the terrorists who get slowly sick by repeated use of the technology. The drawbacks could never be fixed and the tech was abandoned everywhere else.
There is that, although current available evidence pretty much says the Crossfields were purpose built. There's no real reason for a ship to have rotation capability on the saucers like the Crossfields. Only time we see this in action is with the use of the Spore Drive. We know of at least 2, Discovery and Glenn. There may have been a third, USS Andromeda, if the named ship card from Star Trek Adversaries is to be believed, and we don't know if there was a USS Crossfield.
If they are going to build a few more... I can see them not integrating the rotation system, which for a brand new ship would be an easy conversion. But for existing ones like Discovery herself... not so easy. We're talking a potential rebuild of the entire saucer.
Point by point response:
But still the data collected by Discovery proves that Spore Tech shows its promising, but combined with the data they collected from the Mirror Universe and their Spore Reactor... misuse is the biggest threat ever. Discovery is the only ship with an intact Spore Drive. The Tech is most likely going to be locked down except in cases of extreme emergency.
The tech is sound... but there are just not any safeguards in place. Perhaps the Bio-Neural Circuitry used in the late 24th Century can negate the need for a living navigator, but the tech just doesn't exist in the 23rd.
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So, you've got a drive that can get you anywhere nearly instantly, but when damaged during operation, rather than simply dropping you back into normal space the way a warp drive does, it kills everyone aboard in an extremely painful fashion. Coupled with its other drawbacks, I'd shelve it myself, right beside the soliton-wave drive. (Although probably not in the same warehouse as that WWII-era wooden crate with the scorchmarks where the identifying markings were...)
I guess it's only 'canon breaking' when DSC rescales ships.
And yeah, it's prime. The word has one singular meaning, it means the timeline in which the USS Kelvin wasn't destroyed by Nero. Nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't mean 'only the shows the OP likes'. It doesn't mean 'looks like it was made of cardboard in the 60s', it doesn't mean 'any Trek except the current newest series'.
I wonder if people were really this pathetic when TNG came out but just didn't have the internet to subject normal people to it.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Yes, they were. And the media of the day went to Trek conventions all over the USA to cover the fans' negative reaction to the new Star Trek show, gleefully reporting that its demise was well underway even before we ever got to see the space-jellyfish love episode.
There are two different types of prime, the Prime Timeline and the Prime Universe. Setting Discovery in the Prime Timeline means that all the events that happened in Discovery happened 10 years before TOS while setting Discovery in the Prime Universe can mean that certain events from TOS don't happen 10 years after Discovery if Discovery is in a new timeline. There is far too much time travel in Enterprise that could have easily resulted in a new timeline.
Then there is the nature of the Spore Drive which allows for interdimensional travel. Discovery might have started in the Prime Universe, but there is no way to know if Discovery ended up in the Prime Universe. For all we know, each Spore Jump might transport the Discovery to a parallel universe.
I was watching Season 2 of TNG last night and the amount of things in that season alone that was a retcon from TOS and then later retconned AGAIN in later seasons of TNG and DS9 is astonishing.
I am sorry but when it comes to "canon" it is so inconsistent that nothing and I mean nothing is set on stone.
As far as TrekYards being the canon kings.... ERM NO! just NO!
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No there isn't. Prime is the word used for the timeline that isn't the Kelvin Timeline (but is also used to separate the main timeline from other alternate timelines and universes like the AGT timeline or Mirror universe).
Prime Universe is a term you made up.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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I suspected it was just lack of internet. I've plenty of (mostly archived) mouth and brain frothing from the KT and even ENT but all I have for the other series is retrospective (for VGR) or anecdotal (for everything else).
I look forward to the Picard series so we can all look back on DSC with nostalgia and then the new animated series so we can all start to like the Picard show again.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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As much as I would like to take credit for it, Prime Universe is not a term I made up. There is almost 45,000 search results in Google for "star trek" +"prime universe". It was likely used to distinguish the main universe from the Mirror Universe. Prime Timeline was only created as a result of Star Trek 2009.
The Prime Universe is a physical location while the Prime Timeline is the sequence of events that were shown in the Star Trek series. Changing the events in a timeline creates a new timeline. However, minor changes to the events might cause the new timeline to reintegrate with the original timeline. So stealing a whale and giving Transparent Aluminum in the 1980s might cause the new timeline to reintegrate with the old timeline while killing 7 million humans would create a new timeline due to the number of differences between having those 7 million people exist and having those 7 million people cease to exist. So the Borg assimilating Earth in the 21st Century or having the USA stay out of World War II would still be in the Prime Universe, but a different timeline since they would create a sequence of events vastly different from the original timeline.
> brian334 wrote: »
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> artan42 wrote: »
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> I wonder if people were really this pathetic when TNG came out but just didn't have the internet to subject normal people to it.
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> Yes, they were. And the media of the day went to Trek conventions all over the USA to cover the fans' negative reaction to the new Star Trek show, gleefully reporting that its demise was well underway even before we ever got to see the space-jellyfish love episode.
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> jonsills wrote: »
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> artan42 wrote: »
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> I wonder if people were really this pathetic when TNG came out but just didn't have the internet to subject normal people to it.
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> Why, yes, yes they were. Possibly more so, but with the Internet still in the bulletin-board stage, the amplification factor wasn't there yet.
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> I suspected it was just lack of internet. I've plenty of (mostly archived) mouth and brain frothing from the KT and even ENT but all I have for the other series is retrospective (for VGR) or anecdotal (for everything else).
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> I look forward to the Picard series so we can all look back on DSC with nostalgia and then the new animated series so we can all start to like the Picard show again.
The first season? No. I hope it goes to the trash bin it deserves. Second season looks better, but I'm not holding my breath. Especially if that episode I heard about that Discovery is going back to visit the Telosians. After that planet has been strictly forbidden under pain of death as I recall.
Picard series, once again I'll wait and see.
Cause as first seasons go, I'd rather watch the first season of Voyager and I thought it was boring as hell.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
You need to watch anime to understand.
My comics, in the ten forward section, has them, sometimes.
I'm pretty sure that its just the fact that Prime Universe and Prime Timeline just mean the same dang thing and are used interchangably.
What you're trying to push is overly complicated to the point of confusing everyone. Probably until they give up trying to make sense of it. Because if we go by what you say... then literally NOTHING in Star Trek is in the "Prime Timeline" or whatever because every time we have a time travel episode, we branch off into a new reality that is identical to the last save one detail, the crew "came back". So the episode of TOS with the Guardian of Forever? Was the end of one universe or timeline or whatever and the start of another. The events of Star Trek 4? Same. First Contact? Same.
Where does it stop? Because basically...
This is what you're advocating. Speggetti.
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My character Tsin'xing
Actually that's one of the Krenim timestream displays.
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For the most part they are used interchangeably since everything gets fixed in the end so the Prime Timeline is the Prime Universe. However, there is the issue of what happens to the other timelines. Do they get replaced or do they still exist? Which results in the timelines looking like Speggetti. So for First Contact, the Enterprise crew doesn't save their timeline from the Borg. They create a new timeline where they saved the 21st Century from the Borg while their original timeline and the assimilated Earth timeline still exist. If time travel doesn't give you a migraine by thinking about it, then you are doing it wrong.
And this is why I hate Temporal Mechanics.
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Ah, so it's a meaningless term other people made up you use after an appeal to popularity. That changes my point so much.
So.. Prime Timeline is an actual term that means all the Trek that's not in the timeline were the Kelvin was destroyed (but also used for the main timeline excluding alternate timelines/universes like AGT or Mirror Universe) and Prime Universe is a term made up by persons anonymous.
You're correct that there should be no singular timeline but you don't follow it to its logical conclusion. Warp Drive is a time warp drive as established in The Cage therefore, every single time someone across the galaxy uses warp a new timeline is created as it's time travel. So even singular episodes can't be said to be in the same timeline as their beginning and end are altered as soon as they travel in time.
Not enough? FtL communication? Time Travel. More timelines every time a space phone is used.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Might have been the case with The Cage, but interstellar communication and travel for most of the other episodes of Star Trek is based around subspace. So the USS Enterprise might have created a new timeline every time it used its time warp drive until it was changed back to a standard warp drive. Although there are ways to mess around with time that deals with our perception of time and not changing the past like Voyager's A Blink of an Eye where an alien world experiences thousands of years in just a few days.