It is a fundamental part of Star Trek's optimism that people get a second chance.
Prime Kirk and his crew got basically a slap on the wrist for sabotaging a Starfleet vessel, stealing a Starfleet vessel, and losing that stolen Starfleet vessel in combat, and while he was doing illegal things, people got even killed (well, at least one, Kirk's son). Why? Because they saved Earth.
Kelvin Kirk was on the way out of Starfleet for cheating on a test, but he happened to be instrumental in saving Earth, and he got command of the Enterprise.
Burnham tried to start a mutiny, and during those events a war with the Klingons started. She was going to be imprisoned for life, but she was drafted into service by a Starfleet Captain to help in the war effort, and she ultimately was instrumental in getting both the technology to defeat Klingon cloak and save Earth from a Klingon assault, averting a potential genocide on either humanity or Klingons in the process.
All 3 characters made bad or unethical decisions that violated Starfleet rules and regulations, but they proved that they could work under great pressure and in a high stake situation and saved the lives of millions.
You either treat all these as terrible outliers that should never have happened, or you accept that this is how things work in the Star Trek universe. If you want Star Trek to be different from this, that's fine, but you can't claim it's exceptional and out of line.
Just in case valoreah's irony was lost on people.
There are also plenty of examples that are not quite as extreme as the aforementioned ones, but the theme is the same.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
I hate Star Trek Discovery because it takes place in the prime universe but it does not feel at home with the rest of Star Trek. The same argument can be said about Enterprise being before TOS and the ship looking a whole lot more complex.
The issue however is that Discovery has no gap between Star Trek, it litteraly takes place just before TOS and it makes no sense that Starfleet has what appears to be much more advanced ships.
The U.S.S. Discovery is much larger than Consitution Class starships, why would Starfleet be making advanced starships with Spore drives and what-not that was huge... Then change that to make the tiny Consitution Class ship which is slow and inferior.
Yes I've heard the spore drive was dangerous and what-not...
Also the entire style does not simply fit in, the people, ship, technology... Nothing fits in at all, I would like Star Trek Discovery more if it was in another universe. I feel like it would be a good TOS era show for the JJ Trek universe, as the ships in Discovery look a lot more in universe with the JJ Trek ships.. Compared to the other ships we currently have, the Discovery and other ships in the series look so much more advanced than other ships in Star Trek.
Also the entire concept of the show is just ugh, I don't like or bond with any of the characters. The episodes are just boring, it feels like I'm watching another sci-fi show that just.. Uses Star Trek words and names now and then.
Discovery would be an alright JJ Trek TOS era show, but not in the prime universe.
Now Star Trek online has brought it in, changing the storyline in order to streamline it so nothing makes any sense now if you just play through the episodes.
The Discovery era ships are almost the size of a Galaxy Class starship and has more advanced technology, the Klingon's look like some sort of orcs, nothing makes sense.. Nothing about the entire Discovery show or expansion in Star Trek Online feels like Star Trek, playing the new content was like playing some sort of crossover episode with another sci-fi show and like mentioned that's how it felt when watching Discovery.
Nothing about it has the Star Trek feeling, nothing. It just has names and references to Star Trek, I believe it could have been a good JJ Trek TOS era show... But prime universe Star Trek? No.
It just feels so bad, Discovery makes me sigh so much I've stopped playing Star Trek Online for the time being. Maybe the next expansion will be better, but knowing Perfect World Entertainment Discovery will be milked like there's no tomorrow.
It's funny how the developers always go "We love Deep Space 9" and just about when I felt the game was getting really good, there's suddenly no more DS9... Just Discovery.
With Star Trek Enterprise we at least had a huge era gap in the show, maybe Discovery would work better if it took place... After Star Trek Online, for example..
I have nothing against the ships Star Trek Online has made for the game, such as the Andromeda, Narendra, Resolute, Reliant or the Odyssey. Because those ships look like how Starfleet would advance, they strike close to home with how Star Trek ships look.. Just more modern, the issue is that Discovery ships is that they look so different from other Star Trek ships they just don't feel at home in the universe.
Just like how some other technologies we have in Star Trek Online would be a reasonable advance for Starfleet in the future, such as personal shield generators and so forth. The issue with Discovery is that it's litteraly before TOS, it makes zero sense.. It would make more sense if the show took place after Star Trek Online era or something.
"Say, I have an idea! How about we have our main character TRIBBLE up massively, get court-martialled (basically) off-screen, scapegoated by public opinion for starting a war, and then spend the entire season trying to redeem herself for starting a war she didn't start rather than what she was actually guilty of? That'll make the audience like her, right?"
"Genius!"
The problem being, she was absolutely and unambiguously guilty of a crime that WOULD get that Life Sentence even if it didn't start the war.
Further, her actions disrupted operations and put the ship at risk-even if they didn't start the war.
additionally, she demonstrated she can't be trusted in a position of responsibility-or near one, even if she didn't start the war.
this is something y'all keep forgetting about; even with the desperate exhonoration from being the cause of the war, her actions monkeywrenched the function of her ship in a crisis, disrupted the chain of command, and got people killed. Further, she did not have adequate cause to justify her actions, this wasn't a Queeg situation, the Captain was not acting irrationally-Burnham was.
which can be pinned on the writers. With actual good writing the basic facts of the scenario could be set up to make her actions justified, but they didn't do that. The sad fact is, this extends all the way through how they've done the character. it's not just that she's prickly and hard to like, it's that she's utterly improbable at the rank she was given at the opening scene.
and it never got better.
teh more they revealed about her, the less probable she becomes, less credible, the more obviously a plot mechanic instead of a character she becomes.
This is supposed to be an intelligent person, but she's constantly doing the stupidest possible thing and getting away with it solely on the basis of bad writing that ends up making everyone around her even stupider.
which kinda works for half-hour sitcoms, or the various one season or half season cop shows, but this isn't a comedy. Burnham ends up looking like some angsty teen's self-insert fanfic character.
because that's the level she's written to.
Apparently, you didn't get the part where I was mocking the writing.
this is something y'all keep forgetting about; even with the desperate exhonoration from being the cause of the war, her actions monkeywrenched the function of her ship in a crisis, disrupted the chain of command, and got people killed. Further, she did not have adequate cause to justify her actions, this wasn't a Queeg situation, the Captain was not acting irrationally-Burnham was.
Right because no other main character ever on Star Trek ever acted irrationally, made a mistake, disobeyed order(s) or made decisions that got people killed. Never ever ever did this happen on Stark Trek before. Ever.
In simplest terms, were she not the writers' "Chosen One", her 'second chance' would be "We're not going to execute you for treason, barratry, unlawful conspiracy, murder, Mutiny, or Negligence.
That would be quite the trick, given the Federation abolished the Death Penalty (Talos IV was the only death penalty in TOS, and that takes place AFTER DSC).
Also, Kirk's actions did get people killed. In fact, it was worse than killing his crew: his actions caused the death of a civilian (David Marcus). He also stole Starfleet property, destroyed that property (according to his own Court Martial), sabotaged another Starship (Excelsior), disobeyed direct orders from a superior officer (at least twice), violated standing orders regarding the Genesis Planet, and destroyed a Klingon Bird of Prey in what was arguably an act of piracy (Kirk wasn't acting in a military capacity, and he'd already surrendered), this would also make the deaths of the Klingon crew murder. In the US military, he would have hanged.
Furthermore, again, the extent to which Burnham's actions caused the loss of the Shenzhou is extremely debatable. Her actions had no actual effect on the disposition - Shenzhou's shields remained up, Shenzhou did not open fire, the Klingon attack was unchanged, and Georgiou re-assumed command within minutes (and Saru had already broke the mutiny by that point anyway). The only serious effect was that the ship's mutinous and emotionally-compromised First Officer (who should have been relieved on the basis of said compromisation, I would add) was thrown in the Brig where she couldn't do any damage. Those crewmen? Died in the Klingon attack, which they would have done with or without Burnham's mutiny. The destruction of the Shenzhou? Ditto. Would the same have happened if her mutiny were successful? Well, the Sarcophagus was shown to single-handedly outgun multiple starships, so probably. The only real difference is that the Sarco would have a few more dents to buff out and T'Kuvma would have survived, since Shenzhou would have been blown to smithereens before the fleet arrived.
Also, Kirk's actions did get people killed. In fact, it was worse than killing his crew: his actions caused the death of a civilian (David Marcus). He also stole Starfleet property, destroyed that property (according to his own Court Martial), sabotaged another Starship (Excelsior), disobeyed direct orders from a superior officer (at least twice), violated standing orders regarding the Genesis Planet, and destroyed a Klingon Bird of Prey in what was arguably an act of piracy (Kirk wasn't acting in a military capacity, and he'd already surrendered), this would also make the deaths of the Klingon crew murder. In the US military, he would have hanged.
Mutiny, incitement to mutiny, conspiracy to commit mutiny, kidnapping (McCoy, who was legally unable to give consent at the time), conspiracy to commit kidnapping, aiding and abetting escape from custody, accessory before and after the fact to assault (that prison guard didn't just shrug and stand aside for the mighty Kirk), and since he had to get the agreement of two other officers to arm the self-destruct, there's your conspiracy to commit murder and piracy. And that's not an exhaustive list of his crimes in III. (I actually wrote up such a list once, years back, but of course have no idea where it is today.)
The Klingon ambassador might have been a little over-the-top in his speech in IV, but calling Kirk a "terrorist" was justifiable. But that's all okay, because he's our hero.
Also, Kirk's actions did get people killed. In fact, it was worse than killing his crew: his actions caused the death of a civilian (David Marcus). He also stole Starfleet property, destroyed that property (according to his own Court Martial), sabotaged another Starship (Excelsior), disobeyed direct orders from a superior officer (at least twice), violated standing orders regarding the Genesis Planet, and destroyed a Klingon Bird of Prey in what was arguably an act of piracy (Kirk wasn't acting in a military capacity, and he'd already surrendered), this would also make the deaths of the Klingon crew murder. In the US military, he would have hanged.
Mutiny, incitement to mutiny, conspiracy to commit mutiny, kidnapping (McCoy, who was legally unable to give consent at the time), conspiracy to commit kidnapping, aiding and abetting escape from custody, accessory before and after the fact to assault (that prison guard didn't just shrug and stand aside for the mighty Kirk), and since he had to get the agreement of two other officers to arm the self-destruct, there's your conspiracy to commit murder and piracy. And that's not an exhaustive list of his crimes in III. (I actually wrote up such a list once, years back, but of course have no idea where it is today.)
The Klingon ambassador might have been a little over-the-top in his speech in IV, but calling Kirk a "terrorist" was justifiable. But that's all okay, because he's our hero.
'Terrorist' might be a little strong. Renegade, certainly. As I said, he'd have hanged if it was the US (or, more accurately, had a very final date with a lethal injection).
Although, correction on my previous: he didn't destroy the Bird-of-Prey, he captured it (although it does later sink into San Fran Bay). Still piracy, mind.
locked behind pay way and it's probably the show with the lowest viewership in history of series.
hmmm not Prime universe? Yeah I know right holders say it is so it is... but it's not right? the aesthetics didnt match the previous shows... personally I dont mind that much but that ship sailed when DS9 did the episodes where they went back and everyone had to "dress" the part. so you cant really set a show during that time period (10-20 years before) and say it's the same universe when the look, uniforms & tech all look so different. It's looks more of a Kelvin timeline show than a prime one. they even had to redo the Enterprise so it doesnt step on the TOS copyrights.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
locked behind pay way and it's probably the show with the lowest viewership in history of series.
hmmm not Prime universe? Yeah I know right holders say it is so it is... but it's not right? the aesthetics didnt match the previous shows... personally I dont mind that much but that ship sailed when DS9 did the episodes where they went back and everyone had to "dress" the part. so you cant really set a show during that time period (10-20 years before) and say it's the same universe when the look, uniforms & tech all look so different. It's looks more of a Kelvin timeline show than a prime one. they even had to redo the Enterprise so it doesnt step on the TOS copyrights.
The rights holders get to make that call, Tigeraries, not us, it's one of the little benefits of OWNING those rights.
so it is, in fact, Prime Timeline no matter HOW ridiculous that assertion really is.
Personally, I don't believe that Discovery is in the Prime Timeline or at least they aren't at the moment. There was absolutely no evidence that the Mycellial Network allows for time travel and yet Discovery somehow traveled 9 months into the future. It is more reasonable that Discovery was originally from the Prime Timeline and ended up in a parallel universe that is 9 months faster.
this is something y'all keep forgetting about; even with the desperate exhonoration from being the cause of the war, her actions monkeywrenched the function of her ship in a crisis, disrupted the chain of command, and got people killed. Further, she did not have adequate cause to justify her actions, this wasn't a Queeg situation, the Captain was not acting irrationally-Burnham was.
Right because no other main character ever on Star Trek ever acted irrationally, made a mistake, disobeyed order(s) or made decisions that got people killed. Never ever ever did this happen on Stark Trek before. Ever.
In simplest terms, were she not the writers' "Chosen One", her 'second chance' would be "We're not going to execute you for treason, barratry, unlawful conspiracy, murder, Mutiny, or Negligence.
That would be quite the trick, given the Federation abolished the Death Penalty (Talos IV was the only death penalty in TOS, and that takes place AFTER DSC).
Also, Kirk's actions did get people killed. In fact, it was worse than killing his crew: his actions caused the death of a civilian (David Marcus). He also stole Starfleet property, destroyed that property (according to his own Court Martial), sabotaged another Starship (Excelsior), disobeyed direct orders from a superior officer (at least twice), violated standing orders regarding the Genesis Planet, and destroyed a Klingon Bird of Prey in what was arguably an act of piracy (Kirk wasn't acting in a military capacity, and he'd already surrendered), this would also make the deaths of the Klingon crew murder. In the US military, he would have hanged.
Furthermore, again, the extent to which Burnham's actions caused the loss of the Shenzhou is extremely debatable. Her actions had no actual effect on the disposition - Shenzhou's shields remained up, Shenzhou did not open fire, the Klingon attack was unchanged, and Georgiou re-assumed command within minutes (and Saru had already broke the mutiny by that point anyway). The only serious effect was that the ship's mutinous and emotionally-compromised First Officer (who should have been relieved on the basis of said compromisation, I would add) was thrown in the Brig where she couldn't do any damage. Those crewmen? Died in the Klingon attack, which they would have done with or without Burnham's mutiny. The destruction of the Shenzhou? Ditto. Would the same have happened if her mutiny were successful? Well, the Sarcophagus was shown to single-handedly outgun multiple starships, so probably. The only real difference is that the Sarco would have a few more dents to buff out and T'Kuvma would have survived, since Shenzhou would have been blown to smithereens before the fleet arrived.
On the death of David Marcus:
since the Klingons in that case had already killed the entire USS Grissom, the culpability falls on them for his death as the actions of Kirk had nothing to do with their presence. Best you could get is failure to negotiate, which is to say, his negotiation failed in a situation where Klingon troops were already in the process of carrying out a terrorist attack and had already killed a couple hundred people.
The aggravating feature with Burnham's actions, is that her decision hampered people whom were supposed to be able to trust her (as a member of the command staff) both above, and below her pay-grade, including those whom both directly supervised her (Capt. G) and those to whom she was supposed to provide lawful direction (Essentially the rest of her crew).
IOW she demonstrated she can be neither trusted by those above her in the chain of command, nor those below her in a given chain of command.
This, essentially, makes her incapable of doing the "Officer" part of the Officer job. Her subordinates can't trust her to do her job (Giving orders that accomplish the mission without violating the law or getting them killed unnecessarily), her superiors can't trust her to do her job (Following lawful orders given by superiors who have the same, or better access to the information she does from the Vulcans).
see, here's the thing; Starfleet (allegedly) is NOT just United Earth, it's also got Vulcans (a whole ship of them iirc-the Intrepid at the time), including in the command chain. G's orders from Starfleet command were NOT to engage, but to wait for backup. It's reasonable to presume the boys and girls in San Fran consulted with the people who managed to get diplomatic recognition by the Klingons, if "The Vulcan Hello" was a viable strategy in that situation, it's a pretty good bet Capt. G would've been told to go ahead and open fire.
She was specifically told not to do this, in Burnham's presence. (Alternate explanation is that Starfleet is run by incompetents and nepotism-which is a much better explanation for how Burnham got the XO position given her particular brand of passive-aggressive personality disorder and inability to accept direction from her commanders.)
IT seems all this is essentially subsumed by "she committed mutiny". Mutinies are of course disrupting the regular decision process and hampering the legitimate people in charge in making and implementing their decisions. No one thinks that committing a mutiny is the hallmark of a good officer or a desirable action that deserves praises in any circumstance.
However, the Federation thinks that sometimes, you can forgive a crime, if you've shown that you will still serve the people and ideals you once swore to protect in exemplary fashion.
Fundamentally, any form of pardon is an arbitrary decision and an acknowledgement that "our laws would normally expect us to treat you differently, but we decided that this time, we will overrule the usual laws."
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Also, it is worth remembering that there have been times where a mutiny was the correct course of action. Riker mutinied against Picard at least twice in TNG (once when Picard was under the influence of an alien entity, and the second with an alien impersonating Picard). In both those cases, mutiny was the correct course of action. There is such a thing as a legal mutiny. Mainly: the CO has to be ruled unfit to command. The XO can do this in an emergency, or on the advice of the CMO with medical or psychological evidence. In both cases, the XO must have the support of the command staff for the mutiny to be successful (when Worf refuses to follow alien Picard's order to remove Riker, he becomes a mutineer).
This is, of course, the difference between how a mutiny is supposed to conducted legally, and what Burnham did. Burnham did not consult the rest of the Shenzhou's senior staff, nor did she have an medical or psychological basis to relieve Capt. Georgiou (in fact, Georgiou would have been within her rights to relieve Burnham on emotional grounds - she was clearly compromised). That is what makes her mutiny an offence: it was done without basis, unilaterally, and clandestinely.
As for Starfleet knowing about or being familiar with the 'Vulcan Hello'... again, Kirk refers to Starfleet as the 'United Earth Space Probe Agency' in TOS, and we never once see a Vulcan Admiral (let alone any non-Human). Spock is considered unusual as a non-human XO, and the Intrepid was exceptional as an all-Vulcan starship. Are we really going to suggest that it's unlikely Starfleet Command, which is by all available evidence human-dominated at this time, simply thought 'we know what we're doing, no need to ask the Vulcans for advice' or 'the Vulcan Hello may have worked for the Vulcans, but humans are non-violent. Be as passive as possible. We'll ignore the hungry wolf growling at us while slobbering at the mouth.'
Also, based on the many times in Star Trek SFC has basically let a dangerous situation develop without taking preventive action, are we really going to say Starfleet being incompetent is unusual? The basic plot of every ST ep featuring other Starfleet ships is: everyone's incompetent except the Enterprise/Defiant/Voyager/Deep Space Nine! I can fully believe Starfleet Command would give orders not to engage a Klingon vessel, even if every logical suggestion in existence was to do exactly that. Why? Because as Georgiou said: 'We're Starfleet. We don't fire first.'
It was also, incidentally, the correct move strategically: if Burnham had fired on the Sarco', Shenzhou would have been in a losing battle with a ship many times more powerful than it, with a Klingon fleet inbound, without backup. Waiting for the fleet was, strategically, the correct move (which Burnham, having presumably had some Command Training, should have been aware of, but she was too emotionally compromised to realise it).
Also, it is worth remembering that there have been times where a mutiny was the correct course of action. Riker mutinied against Picard at least twice in TNG (once when Picard was under the influence of an alien entity, and the second with an alien impersonating Picard). In both those cases, mutiny was the correct course of action. There is such a thing as a legal mutiny. Mainly: the CO has to be ruled unfit to command. The XO can do this in an emergency, or on the advice of the CMO with medical or psychological evidence. In both cases, the XO must have the support of the command staff for the mutiny to be successful (when Worf refuses to follow alien Picard's order to remove Riker, he becomes a mutineer.
It's not mutiny when the leader is obviously unfit for command or has been replaced by some alien... For example if a lot of people in the government went out and randomly started to injure civilians, taking them down would not be considered treason.
If the CO is relieved for cause, it's not mutiny. For instance, in TOS:"Journey To Babel", Kirk was relieved of command and ordered to Sickbay because of the injury inflicted by the assassin. That wasn't "mutiny", that was the ship's Chief Medical Officer acting in accordance with his duties.
Mutiny is when a CO's subordinates attempt to either remove him without cause or simply ignore his lawful orders. (Ignoring unlawful orders is another kettle of fish altogether, and usually at some point will involve an XO or CMO relieving the CO of duty.)
Other than that, I pretty much agree with your post (with the caveat that Burnham's recommended action, if taken with sufficient alacrity, might well have crippled the sarcophagus ship, in which case the arriving Klingon fleet might well have looked at the situation, decided that T'Kuvma was getting what he deserved, and left. Whole lot of "maybes" in there, though).
Disagreeing with a captain's judgement is not sufficient grounds to remove the captain from command, and the result of that action would have no bearing on the fact that the action itself was a gross violation of law. On a ship the captain is the final word, whether you agree or not. If you have a conscientious objection to the captain's order and cannot fulfill it, your recourse is to make your objection known and to remove yourself from duty, (which will get you locked up, and potentially court martialed with the objective of having you removed from service.) Even if it is proven that your objection had a basis, it is unlikely you would ever see a position of responsibility again. This same act during active hostilities, justified or not, may well result in summary execution.
This isn't the kind of thing an officer recovers from. It's a career ender. At best, assuming Mary...Michael Sue... Burnham was right on all counts, she is still doomed to a paper-pusher job until she resigns in frustration.
Except Trek writers never saw a day of military service between them, have no concept of why it's called a 'chain of command,' and wouldn't understand the concept of Duty as a core value if it were tattooed on them somewhere in between all the piercings.
Your assessment is not entirely accurate, Brian. For instance, if your objection to an order is that it violates applicable laws, the subsequent hearing (not court martial - that would happen after the hearing) would clear you of any charges, and in fact could weigh in your favor in future personnel decisions (as it demonstrates your ethical strength and courage, something the military likes to encourage).
Besides, people keep telling us that Starfleet isn't military; perhaps this is a data point in their favor?
I hate Star Trek Discovery because it takes place in the prime universe but it does not feel at home with the rest of Star Trek. The same argument can be said about Enterprise being before TOS and the ship looking a whole lot more complex.
The issue however is that Discovery has no gap between Star Trek, it litteraly takes place just before TOS and it makes no sense that Starfleet has what appears to be much more advanced ships.
The U.S.S. Discovery is much larger than Consitution Class starships, why would Starfleet be making advanced starships with Spore drives and what-not that was huge... Then change that to make the tiny Consitution Class ship which is slow and inferior.
Yes I've heard the spore drive was dangerous and what-not...
Also the entire style does not simply fit in, the people, ship, technology... Nothing fits in at all, I would like Star Trek Discovery more if it was in another universe. I feel like it would be a good TOS era show for the JJ Trek universe, as the ships in Discovery look a lot more in universe with the JJ Trek ships.. Compared to the other ships we currently have, the Discovery and other ships in the series look so much more advanced than other ships in Star Trek.
Also the entire concept of the show is just ugh, I don't like or bond with any of the characters. The episodes are just boring, it feels like I'm watching another sci-fi show that just.. Uses Star Trek words and names now and then.
Discovery would be an alright JJ Trek TOS era show, but not in the prime universe.
Now Star Trek online has brought it in, changing the storyline in order to streamline it so nothing makes any sense now if you just play through the episodes.
The Discovery era ships are almost the size of a Galaxy Class starship and has more advanced technology, the Klingon's look like some sort of orcs, nothing makes sense.. Nothing about the entire Discovery show or expansion in Star Trek Online feels like Star Trek, playing the new content was like playing some sort of crossover episode with another sci-fi show and like mentioned that's how it felt when watching Discovery.
Nothing about it has the Star Trek feeling, nothing. It just has names and references to Star Trek, I believe it could have been a good JJ Trek TOS era show... But prime universe Star Trek? No.
It just feels so bad, Discovery makes me sigh so much I've stopped playing Star Trek Online for the time being. Maybe the next expansion will be better, but knowing Perfect World Entertainment Discovery will be milked like there's no tomorrow.
It's funny how the developers always go "We love Deep Space 9" and just about when I felt the game was getting really good, there's suddenly no more DS9... Just Discovery.
With Star Trek Enterprise we at least had a huge era gap in the show, maybe Discovery would work better if it took place... After Star Trek Online, for example..
I have nothing against the ships Star Trek Online has made for the game, such as the Andromeda, Narendra, Resolute, Reliant or the Odyssey. Because those ships look like how Starfleet would advance, they strike close to home with how Star Trek ships look.. Just more modern, the issue is that Discovery ships is that they look so different from other Star Trek ships they just don't feel at home in the universe.
Just like how some other technologies we have in Star Trek Online would be a reasonable advance for Starfleet in the future, such as personal shield generators and so forth. The issue with Discovery is that it's litteraly before TOS, it makes zero sense.. It would make more sense if the show took place after Star Trek Online era or something.
So no thank you, I'll play something else.
I'm all with that, except that first bit about Enterprise looking more complex.
I accept that caveat, but there is a huge difference between what Burnham did and refusing to obey an illegal order. My assessment presumed the order was not illegal, but morally repugnant to the individual.
Illegal orders are another kettle of fish entirely, and are grounds for removing an officer from his position, placing him under arrest, and having him removed from the military. In this case, obedience of an illegal order is itself a crime.
What Burnham did was mutiny, pure and simple. In the British Navy of the 18th century, she would have been hanged from the yardarm, justification or no. In the modern US military, given the circumstances and the fact that the mutiny failed, she'd probably face a few years of confinement, then a BCD.
Starfleet, however, has historically been extremely forgiving of personnel if the offense can be justified; Spock, for instance, didn't just mutiny in TOS:"The Menagerie", he also committed what was stated to be the only remaining capital crime in the Federation. Yet at the end of his hearing, since he did it to help his terminally-ill former captain return to Talos IV for the closest thing to care he could get, all was forgiven. He wasn't even reduced in rank.
I hate Star Trek Discovery because it takes place in the prime universe but it does not feel at home with the rest of Star Trek. The same argument can be said about Enterprise being before TOS and the ship looking a whole lot more complex.
The issue however is that Discovery has no gap between Star Trek, it litteraly takes place just before TOS and it makes no sense that Starfleet has what appears to be much more advanced ships.
The U.S.S. Discovery is much larger than Consitution Class starships, why would Starfleet be making advanced starships with Spore drives and what-not that was huge... Then change that to make the tiny Consitution Class ship which is slow and inferior.
Yes I've heard the spore drive was dangerous and what-not...
Also the entire style does not simply fit in, the people, ship, technology... Nothing fits in at all, I would like Star Trek Discovery more if it was in another universe. I feel like it would be a good TOS era show for the JJ Trek universe, as the ships in Discovery look a lot more in universe with the JJ Trek ships.. Compared to the other ships we currently have, the Discovery and other ships in the series look so much more advanced than other ships in Star Trek.
I personally don't have a problem with the technology aesthetic since we are in 2018 instead of the 1960s, but I do have a problem with technology that didn't appear until much later in Discovery like the holocommunicator and holodeck.
As far as the feel of Discovery goes, it feels more like a sequel of Enterprise rather than a prequel of TOS. With the amount of changes to the timeline in Enterprise, there is no possible way that Discovery is in the same timeline as TOS. Quite a few of the problems with Discovery could be explained through it being in a new timeline. There would be no need to explain new technology like the Spore Drive or how TOS didn't feel like they experienced a devastating war about 10 years ago against the Klingons.
If TAS is considered canon then the Enterprise had a holodeck.
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Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
I hate Star Trek Discovery because it takes place in the prime universe but it does not feel at home with the rest of Star Trek. The same argument can be said about Enterprise being before TOS and the ship looking a whole lot more complex.
The issue however is that Discovery has no gap between Star Trek, it litteraly takes place just before TOS and it makes no sense that Starfleet has what appears to be much more advanced ships.
The U.S.S. Discovery is much larger than Consitution Class starships, why would Starfleet be making advanced starships with Spore drives and what-not that was huge... Then change that to make the tiny Consitution Class ship which is slow and inferior.
Yes I've heard the spore drive was dangerous and what-not...
Also the entire style does not simply fit in, the people, ship, technology... Nothing fits in at all, I would like Star Trek Discovery more if it was in another universe. I feel like it would be a good TOS era show for the JJ Trek universe, as the ships in Discovery look a lot more in universe with the JJ Trek ships.. Compared to the other ships we currently have, the Discovery and other ships in the series look so much more advanced than other ships in Star Trek.
I personally don't have a problem with the technology aesthetic since we are in 2018 instead of the 1960s, but I do have a problem with technology that didn't appear until much later in Discovery like the holocommunicator and holodeck.
As far as the feel of Discovery goes, it feels more like a sequel of Enterprise rather than a prequel of TOS. With the amount of changes to the timeline in Enterprise, there is no possible way that Discovery is in the same timeline as TOS. Quite a few of the problems with Discovery could be explained through it being in a new timeline. There would be no need to explain new technology like the Spore Drive or how TOS didn't feel like they experienced a devastating war about 10 years ago against the Klingons.
I always felt Disco was championing ENT, while trying to relegate TOS prime.
Comments
Prime Kirk and his crew got basically a slap on the wrist for sabotaging a Starfleet vessel, stealing a Starfleet vessel, and losing that stolen Starfleet vessel in combat, and while he was doing illegal things, people got even killed (well, at least one, Kirk's son). Why? Because they saved Earth.
Kelvin Kirk was on the way out of Starfleet for cheating on a test, but he happened to be instrumental in saving Earth, and he got command of the Enterprise.
Burnham tried to start a mutiny, and during those events a war with the Klingons started. She was going to be imprisoned for life, but she was drafted into service by a Starfleet Captain to help in the war effort, and she ultimately was instrumental in getting both the technology to defeat Klingon cloak and save Earth from a Klingon assault, averting a potential genocide on either humanity or Klingons in the process.
All 3 characters made bad or unethical decisions that violated Starfleet rules and regulations, but they proved that they could work under great pressure and in a high stake situation and saved the lives of millions.
You either treat all these as terrible outliers that should never have happened, or you accept that this is how things work in the Star Trek universe. If you want Star Trek to be different from this, that's fine, but you can't claim it's exceptional and out of line.
Just in case valoreah's irony was lost on people.
There are also plenty of examples that are not quite as extreme as the aforementioned ones, but the theme is the same.
The issue however is that Discovery has no gap between Star Trek, it litteraly takes place just before TOS and it makes no sense that Starfleet has what appears to be much more advanced ships.
The U.S.S. Discovery is much larger than Consitution Class starships, why would Starfleet be making advanced starships with Spore drives and what-not that was huge... Then change that to make the tiny Consitution Class ship which is slow and inferior.
Yes I've heard the spore drive was dangerous and what-not...
Also the entire style does not simply fit in, the people, ship, technology... Nothing fits in at all, I would like Star Trek Discovery more if it was in another universe. I feel like it would be a good TOS era show for the JJ Trek universe, as the ships in Discovery look a lot more in universe with the JJ Trek ships.. Compared to the other ships we currently have, the Discovery and other ships in the series look so much more advanced than other ships in Star Trek.
Also the entire concept of the show is just ugh, I don't like or bond with any of the characters. The episodes are just boring, it feels like I'm watching another sci-fi show that just.. Uses Star Trek words and names now and then.
Discovery would be an alright JJ Trek TOS era show, but not in the prime universe.
Now Star Trek online has brought it in, changing the storyline in order to streamline it so nothing makes any sense now if you just play through the episodes.
The Discovery era ships are almost the size of a Galaxy Class starship and has more advanced technology, the Klingon's look like some sort of orcs, nothing makes sense.. Nothing about the entire Discovery show or expansion in Star Trek Online feels like Star Trek, playing the new content was like playing some sort of crossover episode with another sci-fi show and like mentioned that's how it felt when watching Discovery.
Nothing about it has the Star Trek feeling, nothing. It just has names and references to Star Trek, I believe it could have been a good JJ Trek TOS era show... But prime universe Star Trek? No.
It just feels so bad, Discovery makes me sigh so much I've stopped playing Star Trek Online for the time being. Maybe the next expansion will be better, but knowing Perfect World Entertainment Discovery will be milked like there's no tomorrow.
It's funny how the developers always go "We love Deep Space 9" and just about when I felt the game was getting really good, there's suddenly no more DS9... Just Discovery.
With Star Trek Enterprise we at least had a huge era gap in the show, maybe Discovery would work better if it took place... After Star Trek Online, for example..
I have nothing against the ships Star Trek Online has made for the game, such as the Andromeda, Narendra, Resolute, Reliant or the Odyssey. Because those ships look like how Starfleet would advance, they strike close to home with how Star Trek ships look.. Just more modern, the issue is that Discovery ships is that they look so different from other Star Trek ships they just don't feel at home in the universe.
Just like how some other technologies we have in Star Trek Online would be a reasonable advance for Starfleet in the future, such as personal shield generators and so forth. The issue with Discovery is that it's litteraly before TOS, it makes zero sense.. It would make more sense if the show took place after Star Trek Online era or something.
So no thank you, I'll play something else.
Apparently, you didn't get the part where I was mocking the writing.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
That would be quite the trick, given the Federation abolished the Death Penalty (Talos IV was the only death penalty in TOS, and that takes place AFTER DSC).
Also, Kirk's actions did get people killed. In fact, it was worse than killing his crew: his actions caused the death of a civilian (David Marcus). He also stole Starfleet property, destroyed that property (according to his own Court Martial), sabotaged another Starship (Excelsior), disobeyed direct orders from a superior officer (at least twice), violated standing orders regarding the Genesis Planet, and destroyed a Klingon Bird of Prey in what was arguably an act of piracy (Kirk wasn't acting in a military capacity, and he'd already surrendered), this would also make the deaths of the Klingon crew murder. In the US military, he would have hanged.
Furthermore, again, the extent to which Burnham's actions caused the loss of the Shenzhou is extremely debatable. Her actions had no actual effect on the disposition - Shenzhou's shields remained up, Shenzhou did not open fire, the Klingon attack was unchanged, and Georgiou re-assumed command within minutes (and Saru had already broke the mutiny by that point anyway). The only serious effect was that the ship's mutinous and emotionally-compromised First Officer (who should have been relieved on the basis of said compromisation, I would add) was thrown in the Brig where she couldn't do any damage. Those crewmen? Died in the Klingon attack, which they would have done with or without Burnham's mutiny. The destruction of the Shenzhou? Ditto. Would the same have happened if her mutiny were successful? Well, the Sarcophagus was shown to single-handedly outgun multiple starships, so probably. The only real difference is that the Sarco would have a few more dents to buff out and T'Kuvma would have survived, since Shenzhou would have been blown to smithereens before the fleet arrived.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
The Klingon ambassador might have been a little over-the-top in his speech in IV, but calling Kirk a "terrorist" was justifiable. But that's all okay, because he's our hero.
'Terrorist' might be a little strong. Renegade, certainly. As I said, he'd have hanged if it was the US (or, more accurately, had a very final date with a lethal injection).
Although, correction on my previous: he didn't destroy the Bird-of-Prey, he captured it (although it does later sink into San Fran Bay). Still piracy, mind.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
hmmm not Prime universe? Yeah I know right holders say it is so it is... but it's not right? the aesthetics didnt match the previous shows... personally I dont mind that much but that ship sailed when DS9 did the episodes where they went back and everyone had to "dress" the part. so you cant really set a show during that time period (10-20 years before) and say it's the same universe when the look, uniforms & tech all look so different. It's looks more of a Kelvin timeline show than a prime one. they even had to redo the Enterprise so it doesnt step on the TOS copyrights.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Personally, I don't believe that Discovery is in the Prime Timeline or at least they aren't at the moment. There was absolutely no evidence that the Mycellial Network allows for time travel and yet Discovery somehow traveled 9 months into the future. It is more reasonable that Discovery was originally from the Prime Timeline and ended up in a parallel universe that is 9 months faster.
However, the Federation thinks that sometimes, you can forgive a crime, if you've shown that you will still serve the people and ideals you once swore to protect in exemplary fashion.
Fundamentally, any form of pardon is an arbitrary decision and an acknowledgement that "our laws would normally expect us to treat you differently, but we decided that this time, we will overrule the usual laws."
This is, of course, the difference between how a mutiny is supposed to conducted legally, and what Burnham did. Burnham did not consult the rest of the Shenzhou's senior staff, nor did she have an medical or psychological basis to relieve Capt. Georgiou (in fact, Georgiou would have been within her rights to relieve Burnham on emotional grounds - she was clearly compromised). That is what makes her mutiny an offence: it was done without basis, unilaterally, and clandestinely.
As for Starfleet knowing about or being familiar with the 'Vulcan Hello'... again, Kirk refers to Starfleet as the 'United Earth Space Probe Agency' in TOS, and we never once see a Vulcan Admiral (let alone any non-Human). Spock is considered unusual as a non-human XO, and the Intrepid was exceptional as an all-Vulcan starship. Are we really going to suggest that it's unlikely Starfleet Command, which is by all available evidence human-dominated at this time, simply thought 'we know what we're doing, no need to ask the Vulcans for advice' or 'the Vulcan Hello may have worked for the Vulcans, but humans are non-violent. Be as passive as possible. We'll ignore the hungry wolf growling at us while slobbering at the mouth.'
Also, based on the many times in Star Trek SFC has basically let a dangerous situation develop without taking preventive action, are we really going to say Starfleet being incompetent is unusual? The basic plot of every ST ep featuring other Starfleet ships is: everyone's incompetent except the Enterprise/Defiant/Voyager/Deep Space Nine! I can fully believe Starfleet Command would give orders not to engage a Klingon vessel, even if every logical suggestion in existence was to do exactly that. Why? Because as Georgiou said: 'We're Starfleet. We don't fire first.'
It was also, incidentally, the correct move strategically: if Burnham had fired on the Sarco', Shenzhou would have been in a losing battle with a ship many times more powerful than it, with a Klingon fleet inbound, without backup. Waiting for the fleet was, strategically, the correct move (which Burnham, having presumably had some Command Training, should have been aware of, but she was too emotionally compromised to realise it).
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
It's not mutiny when the leader is obviously unfit for command or has been replaced by some alien... For example if a lot of people in the government went out and randomly started to injure civilians, taking them down would not be considered treason.
Mutiny is when a CO's subordinates attempt to either remove him without cause or simply ignore his lawful orders. (Ignoring unlawful orders is another kettle of fish altogether, and usually at some point will involve an XO or CMO relieving the CO of duty.)
Other than that, I pretty much agree with your post (with the caveat that Burnham's recommended action, if taken with sufficient alacrity, might well have crippled the sarcophagus ship, in which case the arriving Klingon fleet might well have looked at the situation, decided that T'Kuvma was getting what he deserved, and left. Whole lot of "maybes" in there, though).
This isn't the kind of thing an officer recovers from. It's a career ender. At best, assuming Mary... Michael Sue... Burnham was right on all counts, she is still doomed to a paper-pusher job until she resigns in frustration.
Except Trek writers never saw a day of military service between them, have no concept of why it's called a 'chain of command,' and wouldn't understand the concept of Duty as a core value if it were tattooed on them somewhere in between all the piercings.
Besides, people keep telling us that Starfleet isn't military; perhaps this is a data point in their favor?
I'm all with that, except that first bit about Enterprise looking more complex.
Illegal orders are another kettle of fish entirely, and are grounds for removing an officer from his position, placing him under arrest, and having him removed from the military. In this case, obedience of an illegal order is itself a crime.
Starfleet, however, has historically been extremely forgiving of personnel if the offense can be justified; Spock, for instance, didn't just mutiny in TOS:"The Menagerie", he also committed what was stated to be the only remaining capital crime in the Federation. Yet at the end of his hearing, since he did it to help his terminally-ill former captain return to Talos IV for the closest thing to care he could get, all was forgiven. He wasn't even reduced in rank.
I personally don't have a problem with the technology aesthetic since we are in 2018 instead of the 1960s, but I do have a problem with technology that didn't appear until much later in Discovery like the holocommunicator and holodeck.
As far as the feel of Discovery goes, it feels more like a sequel of Enterprise rather than a prequel of TOS. With the amount of changes to the timeline in Enterprise, there is no possible way that Discovery is in the same timeline as TOS. Quite a few of the problems with Discovery could be explained through it being in a new timeline. There would be no need to explain new technology like the Spore Drive or how TOS didn't feel like they experienced a devastating war about 10 years ago against the Klingons.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
I always felt Disco was championing ENT, while trying to relegate TOS prime.