the Kobali would have been the enemy and the Vaadwuar the allies to a Klingon. the Voth only beef they had with our quadrant of space was with the federation and the theory of origin. the iconians if I Klingon had gone back in time he would have destroyed them and WON the war completely before it had even started now doing it the fed way we still have the rouge to deal with constantly. …..no even the new so called Klingon centric content is NOT Klingon. and with age of discovery it is just a slap in the face. the game needs to restart the war let the KDF become two divisions one that bows to the feds and losses their identity and the other that lives by the old ways. CIVIL WAR!!!!! it is very Klingon if they refuse to let us kill the feds.
Uhh no
-Klingons have despised the genocidal tactics like the Vaadwaur use sine the TNG era
-Klingons would also realize how monumentally dumb the Voth's plan to destroy warp travel with omega molecules is
-Again, Klingons have been against genocide, and against attacking those who have done nothing/can't defend themselves(See how Quark was treated in DS9) So they wouldn't have attacked the Iconians in the past.
Your idea of what a Klingon is flies in the face of everything the shows have shown us Klingons are like since TNG.
I always find it funny that people who try to ask for more Klingon content are the ones who seemingly know the least about Klingons.
Yeah, some people absolutely HATE the idea that the KDF isn't a Klingons-only club.... thing is... starting in TOS, Klingon stories often involve the Klingons expanding their influence by adding not just planets, but RACES to the empire. yes, I said "starting in TOS", because attempts to expand their territory are the focus of most of the Klingon stories! The Klingons went to Organia because they wanted to subjugate(not exterminate, subjugate) the Organians. Then they found out the Organians aren't really humanoids and left them alone.... but that's not a unique event. In TNG we see the Kriosians(in two episodes in fact), a race that were subjugated long ago, but act much like a member world in that they have their own space fleet.
Others include Capella(the Klingons tried to talk the locals into allowing themselves to be subjugated), Neural(a bit different in that the Klingons backed one faction of the locals in the intent of creating a dictatorship loyal to their Klingon overlords), also Elas and Troyius (which they wanted to capture for the Dilithium mining). That's just in TOS!
So yeah, a lot of the people complaining about how Cryptic writes Klingons make me wonder whether they watched the TV show.
Humans can't be fickle now and then? Welp, that's over 99% of the race discounted right there. Might want to look in the mirror before you talk about the other guy's acne!
Here's the thing: I came to STO because I wanted to play a Romulan. I wouldn't want to be one, but in Star Fleet Battles and Star Trek the RPG I was the guy that played the Romulans, so I was pretty stoked when STO went F2P and I could afford to log in.
There was no Romulan playable character. You had to get a Vulcan and say he was Romulan, which turned out to be pointless because nobody roleplays here. (At least not in public.)
So, I says to myself, I'll play a Klingon!
Nope. Had to be level 20 as a FED, and there was no story, just a few dailies, Kerrat, and PvP queues. Ouch.
So I made a Trill Scientist, (astrophysicist,) and jumped in on the Science Vessels. Then when I could I made a Klink BoPper. Fun times.
And eventually LoR came out and I could get a Romulan! Yay! I ran my guy up and turned him into a fairly decent character, made another and ran her up, started a third. I bought Romulan stuff, spent Dil on Romulan stuff, hell, I said Jolan Tru to everybody I saw.
And apparently there weren't many like me because we started hearing about lousy sales of Rom stuff.
I can't personally afford to hire a developer to build Romulan stuff. Lots of people can do it a little at a time by buying Romulan stuff but it would have to be consistent, regular, and ongoing.
And that's the thing tha 90% of the argument ignores. The developers don't hate Klingons. They can't sell Klingons. Whose fault is that? Who cares at this point. If Klingon stuff sold the developers would makemore, because deep down they are not ogres, they are Ferengi.
-Small bits of things like them being partially misogynistic, religious cannibals, taking slaves, being space terrorists, most of which they stopped doing between Undiscovered Country and TNG.
Actually in TNG we found out they still have vassal races. Then again, they seemed to actually be relatively nice to them compared to previously.
that's funny for a couple reasons Som, reason one being that if those disruptors are being built by slaves, there's a good chance they don't work.
But let's be literalist... and use all the quotes. This means Ferengi are people-eating monsters too, as opposed to the insectivores we saw in Deep Space Nine. (Their first appearance, in season 1 of TNG, remember that? iirc Riker spouts off a piece of propaganda referencing Ferengi as cannibalistic strip miners as well. kinda suggests maybe one should NOT apply literalist interpretation, doesn't it? or do you think the Ferengi find sentient meat 'tasty as their last clients'?)
Except
A. We have seen Klingon weapons fucntion quite well
B. We have on screen evidence of the Klingons doing this
For someone who loves to champion Klingons, It always amazes me how little you actually understand about them at all, and how much your interpretation of them going against literally everything shown in all of the shows and movies.
exactly, so obviously, You're wrong.
Cannibalism: Only in discovery.
And then only because they were literally starving to death, it should be noted. It was clearly framed as desperation, not something they do routinely.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
the Kobali would have been the enemy and the Vaadwuar the allies to a Klingon. the Voth only beef they had with our quadrant of space was with the federation and the theory of origin. the iconians if I Klingon had gone back in time he would have destroyed them and WON the war completely before it had even started now doing it the fed way we still have the rouge to deal with constantly. …..no even the new so called Klingon centric content is NOT Klingon. and with age of discovery it is just a slap in the face. the game needs to restart the war let the KDF become two divisions one that bows to the feds and losses their identity and the other that lives by the old ways. CIVIL WAR!!!!! it is very Klingon if they refuse to let us kill the feds.
Uhh no
-Klingons have despised the genocidal tactics like the Vaadwaur use sine the TNG era
Where, exactly, is genocide actually evidenced in the entire Kobali/Vaadwaur story arc?
They're shown attacking planets with the intent of conquest. That's... kinda what Klingons do themselves.
They're shown developing and deploying a vaccine against zombification of their war dead (which almost certainly violates the 1980 Geneva Additional Protocols against desecration of a body, as well as being functionally r@pe as a war crime).
They're shown developing and deploying chemical weapons against the zombies. Breaks the Chemical Weapons Convention but A, the Vaadwaur are not signatories, and B, they're using it as a tactical battlefield weapon against enemy regular soldiers to conserve their very limited forces, not as a weapon of genocide.
They're shown killing Talaxians because Gaul is a whiny little fascist b***h who throws temper tantrums when he doesn't get what he wants. There's no evidence this is a standard behavior, and in fact there's evidence to the contrary: the mere fact that he needed to infest all his senior commanders with bluegills suggests they wouldn't willingly have gone along with his alliance with the Iconians or most of the actions that followed therefrom.
-Klingons would also realize how monumentally dumb the Voth's plan to destroy warp travel with omega molecules is
They planned to use omega molecules as a firebreak around their own space, against the frakking Borg. That's actually rather smart: they don't use traditional warp technology so it may not affect them. And who knows? Maybe, just like the Lukari kept studying protomatter technology instead of declaring it too dangerous to use and never touching it again, they'll figure something else out.
(Actually, I don't seriously think they could, but because of Voth denialism of anything that contradicts Doctrine, not because I believe it's impossible in and of itself.)
-Again, Klingons have been against genocide, and against attacking those who have done nothing/can't defend themselves(See how Quark was treated in DS9) So they wouldn't have attacked the Iconians in the past.
A, you completely misrepresent the Klingon sense of honor. Worf pointed out explicitly in "Looking for par'Mach in All the Wrong Places" that Quark's stunt only worked because Quark was brave enough to meet D'Ghor face to face and dare him to kill him, after proving with copious hard evidence how D'Ghor had previously acted without honor. Said another way, Gowron stepped in because Quark made his case and staked his life on its truthfulness. If Gowron and the High Council hadn't been watching D'Ghor would've just chopped him in half. This video has a more thorough explanation than I have time to type out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnWOHVOVgFQ
B, not just attacking the Iconians in the past, but erasing them from history entirely is the first thing on everybody's minds when the Annorax is made operational. (I don't clearly remember if the Klinks had an in-person representative in that mission, but given that one of their officers is supreme allied commander, do you seriously think they weren't consulted?)
Post edited by starswordc on
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
that's funny for a couple reasons Som, reason one being that if those disruptors are being built by slaves, there's a good chance they don't work.
But let's be literalist... and use all the quotes. This means Ferengi are people-eating monsters too, as opposed to the insectivores we saw in Deep Space Nine. (Their first appearance, in season 1 of TNG, remember that? iirc Riker spouts off a piece of propaganda referencing Ferengi as cannibalistic strip miners as well. kinda suggests maybe one should NOT apply literalist interpretation, doesn't it? or do you think the Ferengi find sentient meat 'tasty as their last clients'?)
Except
A. We have seen Klingon weapons fucntion quite well
B. We have on screen evidence of the Klingons doing this
For someone who loves to champion Klingons, It always amazes me how little you actually understand about them at all, and how much your interpretation of them going against literally everything shown in all of the shows and movies.
exactly, so obviously, You're wrong.
Cannibalism: Only in discovery.
And then only because they were literally starving to death, it should be noted. It was clearly framed as desperation, not something they do routinely.
right. Explain that to Som, he still doesn't get it.
Technically speaking, what the Klingons did with Philippa wasn't exactly cannibalism. Cannibalism is defined by one species eating a member of their own species. Since Klingons are eating a human, it wouldn't be cannibalism as we know it.
[*] They're shown developing and deploying chemical weapons against the zombies. Breaks the Chemical Weapons Convention but A, the Vaadwaur are not signatories, and B, they're using it as a tactical battlefield weapon against enemy regular soldiers to conserve their very limited forces, not as a weapon of genocide.
Its literally stated they plan to use their virus to inoculate every living thing on the planet so that it ca't be raised as a Kobali so that the Kobali will die off, aka, genocide. The fact that you calls them zombies really shows how little of intent you have to be honest here.
A: Really? How do you propose they actually accomplish that, and what actual point would there be? The zombies don't seem to be able to raise each other and are only interested in raising humanoids (so far), and I somehow doubt the Allied soldiers are going to willingly let the Vaads inoculate them, too. In fact I'm trying to picture how that would work. "Hey! Yeah, you over there, in the red shirt with the phaser gun! I need you to hold out your arm for me so I can inject you with this!"
And how is the vaccine going to reach the bodies the zombies have in storage (both in the Vaad cryo vault and presumably elsewhere)?
B: The fact I call them zombies and will continue to call them zombies really shows how I think they're a horrible bunch of people who should've been the villains of the story arc instead of the Vaadwaur. That honest enough for you?
They planned to use omega molecules as a firebreak around their own space, against the frakking Borg. That's actually rather smart: they don't use traditional warp technology so it may not affect them. And who knows? Maybe, just like the Lukari kept studying protomatter technology instead of declaring it too dangerous to use and never touching it again, they'll figure something else out.
Except the Borg have access to travel beyond typical warp travel. Omega detonations stop normal warp, sure, but the Borg's primary method of travel is TRANSWARP, which we don't know if it is affected. All the Borg would have to do is program one of their transwarp gateways to open up inside Voth space and BAM! plot foiled.
Its a dumb, shortsighted, and stupidly dangerous plan from a rather dumb race.
Argumentum ad ignorantium. "We have no evidence for what effect it would have, therefore the effect would be bad." The fact the Voth think it might work suggests they have information you don't, that they are disinclined to share with you because (I'm assuming) you're a dirty stinkin' mammal.
B, not just attacking the Iconians in the past, but erasing them from history entirely is the first thing on everybody's minds when the Annorax is made operational. (I don't clearly remember if the Klinks had an in-person representative in that mission, but given that one of their officers is supreme allied commander, do you seriously think they weren't consulted?)
No it isn't. The first thing the Alliance tires to do is save Romulus and delay the Iconian's arrival by hundreds of years by making it so Iconia isn't found. Nog even tells you that using the Annorax to simply remove the Iconians was no ones first choice, but they did run the simulation and found that it would change things too massively.
Really? Because as I recall, wiping out the Iconians entirely was actually the first scenario they gamed out before the PC even arrived. Delaying the discovery of Iconia was somewhere around fourth.
A, you completely misrepresent the Klingon sense of honor.
>says I got it wrong
>goes on to repeat the very argument I had just made
Seriously?
You need to reread the post, and actually watch the video this time, because the Klingon sense of honor is a lot more nuanced than you wish it was. It wasn't the fact that Quark was unarmed that proved D'Ghor's dishonor. Klingons attack unarmed targets all the time, especially in war. But Quark proved his point before the High Council with facts, evidence, and when he was challenged to trial by combat, he knew perfectly well he didn't stand a chance against D'Ghor in a fair fight but he showed up anyway, just to spit in his enemy's eye. That, in the Klingon mind, makes him not just right (and dead), but worthy (and alive), because he's shown he'll stand his ground and put his money where his mouth is.
Worf's point in the later episode was that this wouldn't work with the challenge over dating Lady Grilka in the later episode: her chaperone would just go ahead and beat the TRIBBLE out of him, because Quark had not already proven his point, i.e. that he was worthy to date Grilka.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
You would see exactly the SAME thing, if positions had been reversed from day one, and Federation content had been neglected over a period of YEARS in favour of rolling out more KDF and variant KDF in preference.
Though the game probably wouldn't have been as easy to save from collapse, since the 'theme park' aspect is the main marketing, and really, the whole thing is kind of like 'shovelware done right' in terms of playing to lowest common denominator with writing, mechanics, and such-without the name 'Star Trek' this game would not have lasted 2 years.
If the situation had been reserved, but everything else would have stayed the same, the game would definitely dead. Maybe a Klingon-Focused MMO could survive, but it would probably require something like an elaborate Faction PvP system to retain interest for long. You just cannot tell the type of Star Trek theme park stories from the Klingon point of view alone.
Pretty much everyone that got into Star Trek got it via the Starfleet Point of View, so limiting the Starfleet faction the most is most likely to lead to disappointment. Most (not all) Star Trek games in the past have either been Federation focused, or were strategy games with a PvP focused multiplayer component.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
If Star Trek Online was not Star Trek Online, but generic Science Fiction Space Online, I think it would simply be a completely different game.
If you don't have a licensee breathing down your neck with licensing fees and agreements, and you don't have an established IP, you would just make things very, very different.
There are really not that many "Generic Science Fiction Space Online" games. Eve and Elite Dangeorus might qualify, but as I understand, neither really have a concept of strict factions. They are about player-run groups mostly and even in PvE have basically no story content! So instead of having one fleshed out faction and one barebones PvP only factions, you basically have only barebones PvE and PvP factions.
But just as you wouldn't take the STO approach with a generic sci fi game, you probably shouldn't take the EVE or Elite Dangerous approach to Star Trek.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
You would see exactly the SAME thing, if positions had been reversed from day one, and Federation content had been neglected over a period of YEARS in favour of rolling out more KDF and variant KDF in preference.
Though the game probably wouldn't have been as easy to save from collapse, since the 'theme park' aspect is the main marketing, and really, the whole thing is kind of like 'shovelware done right' in terms of playing to lowest common denominator with writing, mechanics, and such-without the name 'Star Trek' this game would not have lasted 2 years.
If the situation had been reserved, but everything else would have stayed the same, the game would definitely dead. Maybe a Klingon-Focused MMO could survive, but it would probably require something like an elaborate Faction PvP system to retain interest for long. You just cannot tell the type of Star Trek theme park stories from the Klingon point of view alone.
Pretty much everyone that got into Star Trek got it via the Starfleet Point of View, so limiting the Starfleet faction the most is most likely to lead to disappointment. Most (not all) Star Trek games in the past have either been Federation focused, or were strategy games with a PvP focused multiplayer component.
I think the point I was trying to make was that if STO had to survive without the familiarity of being a FEderation-focused Star Trek game, but rather, as a 'science fiction' game without the Trek?
the imbalances would've killed it in the first two years-not just factional, but also the rather mediocre mechanical aspects. Ceterus paribus, if your "multifaction" game heavily slants to one side, then it's not really going to do very well and given the feedback effect and Cryptic's policies, the population imbalance if it DID survive would resemble greatly the population imbalance here, only possibly MORESO, being as in a generic setting, they would not have been able to lean heavily on fifty years of Star Trek for fans.
including fans that like the Klingons.
basically, from a mechanical point of view, the game would've died in under 2 years without the Trek name or a Trek tie-in. With the Trek name and Trek tie-in, they've had enough slack to let some truly shoddy work go live, and stay there for years, while being mildly successful.
this suggests that while what Geko's doing is 'working' it wouldn't work on another game.
I mean, you're dead right about the nostalgia angles. the problem I have looking at it as a GAME, is that as a GAME they took on too much they couldn't do, and didn't do what they took on well enough to qualify as a 'good' game on the GAME's own merits.
MOST other development houses, if they are running a multifaction game and there's a HUGE population imbalance, treat that as a sign that something is dreadfully drastically WRONG. Cryptic doubles down on it and says "Let's add some half-factions while we completely ignore this imbalance."
Without the Star Trek name, this strategy would be a crushing failure.
Except STO is NOT a multifaction game and Cryptic doesn't want it to be a multifaction game, despite (mis)using the word "faction" to describe things in game that are clearly not factions. There is only the Alliance and a number of origin stories, some shorter others longer, that lead up to it.
The supposed problem of the population imbalance is just semantic nitpicking over the word "faction." If Cryptic went through the game and replaced all mentions of "faction" with the more accurate "origin story," there would be absolutely no issue at all and nobody would say it's a sign of anything being wrong that people prefer some origins over others.
And the Player Character, regardless of origin, is presented as a practical and responsible problem solver of few words and generic personality, as well as the most awesome fighter in the universe. I wouldn't call that "Federation-focused," but a standard videogame hero. In that aspect the Star Trek name is if anything a hindrance rather than a help. If this were an original science fiction game, nobody would be complaining this-or-that race isn't acting stereotypically enough for them.
A: Really? How do you propose they actually accomplish that, and what actual point would there be? The zombies don't seem to be able to raise each other and are only interested in raising humanoids (so far), and I somehow doubt the Allied soldiers are going to willingly let the Vaads inoculate them, too. In fact I'm trying to picture how that would work. "Hey! Yeah, you over there, in the red shirt with the phaser gun! I need you to hold out your arm for me so I can inject you with this!"
It was going to be an airborne agent, much like the Enclave's use of FEV in Fallout 2.
If you're looking to Fallout for scientific accuracy you're in the wrong place: most of the setting is scientifically nonsense, starting with the fact that 200-odd years after the bombs, the worst of the radiation would be long gone and the greenery would've mostly come back on its own (look up what happened after the explosion of Mount St. Helens as an example: windblown seed from outside the blast area lands in the wastes and germinates).
The Vaadwaur are not shown to have any capability for wide deployment of their aerosolized chemical weapon (the writers conflated terms again*), only launch by artillery shell: they can't do it by ship because they don't have space superiority with the Alliance in the way. Which is effective out against targets out in no-man's-land (until the enemy starts using haz-mat gear anyway), but not against the shielded, fortified city the Kobali are shown to have (the theatre shield is shown easily fending off sustained bombardments).
* What's shown and described is the properties of a chemical agent. A biological weapon that kills its victims instantaneously (as seen when the weapon is deployed by artillery in the battlezone missions) makes a very poor weapon of mass destruction, because it can't self-replicate and spread itself beyond the initial exposure area (even an airborne one). That was actually demonstrated in one of the recent Ebola outbreaks: the strain of Ebola virus involved was so lethal it actually couldn't spread as fast because it killed its victims too quickly.
B: The fact I call them zombies and will continue to call them zombies really shows how I think they're a horrible bunch of people who should've been the villains of the story arc instead of the Vaadwaur. That honest enough for you?
Coming from someone with the ethical view that mass murder, war crimes, and outright genocide, are perfectly fine, the fact you consider them the enemy really only shows how they aren't.
The fact you think I've ever advocated those really only shows you don't own a dictionary and like to rely on emotional gut reactions to choice of weapon over uncomfortable realities.
The Kobali are systematic mass r@pists: they reproduce using other humanoids without their consent and then brainwash them into behaving like themselves, and if the brainwashing doesn't take and you decide you want your old life back? Tough noogies -- you get hunted down by their military and hauled back home for reindoctrination. (Don't give me that ridiculous argument about how "it's just humans that work that way": you really think that in a less illiberal society that hasn't seen it happen before repeatedly, that Lyndsay Ballard's self-proclaimed "father" would have been able to get two military vessels deployed to chase after his runaway daughter?) And they think this behavior is a "cultural right", while offering no respect whatsoever for other cultures. I refuse to accept any such thing as a "cultural right" to oppress others.
That's strike one, two, and three. Strike four is repeatedly deceiving the allies who dropped everything to come help them. Strike five is that they contribute nothing to the Alliance war effort that doesn't come from Alliance resource expenditure (other than warm bodies, which we can get plenty of from much less awful people). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-x5XZi-JiNw
Argumentum ad ignorantium. "We have no evidence for what effect it would have, therefore the effect would be bad." The fact the Voth think it might work suggests they have information you don't, that they are disinclined to share with you because (I'm assuming) you're a dirty stinkin' mammal.
No, it just suggests the Voth are stupid, and desperate. Which they are. Even their own scientists warm them its a bad idea.
One scientist thought it was a bad idea. As noted, Federation scientists, supposedly the best in the galaxy, thought that protomatter was impossible to use safely, but the Lukari do exactly that all the time.
Really? Because as I recall, wiping out the Iconians entirely was actually the first scenario they gamed out before the PC even arrived. Delaying the discovery of Iconia was somewhere around fourth.
It was the first scenario they tested, because, OFC you would test that out to see the repercussions and collect basic data point, but It was never the actual plan because the Iconians were too involved with the development of the galaxy, so removing them would just **** everything up.
So you concede the point: the Klingons would have been willing to wipe out the Iconians altogether if the cost-to-benefit ratio had been more favorable.
It wasn't the fact that Quark was unarmed that proved D'Ghor's dishonor. Klingons attack unarmed targets all the time, especially in war. But Quark proved his point before the High Council with facts, evidence, and when he was challenged to trial by combat, he knew perfectly well he didn't stand a chance against D'Ghor in a fair fight but he showed up anyway, just to spit in his enemy's eye. That, in the Klingon mind, makes him not just right (and dead), but worthy (and alive), because he's shown he'll stand his ground and put his money where his mouth is.
Which, again, goes back to what I said about why Kagran changed his mind about attacking the Iconians in the past once he realized why they are they way they are now, and that it wasn't because of them just being naturally ****.
Kagran is manifestly a moron and didn't even come close to exploring all his options. For example: if you obey the Temporal Prime Directive and just leave, Team Jerkass wipes out the Iconians in the past like they were supposed to in the timeline that must have existed before you started tampering with it, and the entire war never happens in the first place. (Of course that also means the events of the 2009 movie don't happen and the Romulan Star Empire is still around, but I can live with that.)
Wiping out the Iconians in the past is immoral because the Iconians of the past didn't attack anybody. And being attacked in the past is not why they became "naturally ****". Billions of people have s***ty lives that are the result of the actions of entitled pricks like -200,000 BC's Team Jerkass, and most of them don't become mass murderers over it: they just try to live the best they can. Nobody made the Iconians retaliate against trillions of innocents 200,000 years removed from the original offense, they chose to do that on their own. (There's that "mass murder", "war crimes", and "genocide" you were looking for, by the way.)
That is the action, the choice, of a "natural ****".
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Kagran is manifestly a moron and didn't even come close to exploring all his options. For example: if you obey the Temporal Prime Directive and just leave, Team Jerkass wipes out the Iconians in the past like they were supposed to in the timeline that must have existed before you started tampering with it, and the entire war never happens in the first place. (Of course that also means the events of the 2009 movie don't happen and the Romulan Star Empire is still around, but I can live with that.)
No, that is precisely what must not have happened, in any timeline. The iconian attack is our reason for going back in time, therefore the attack must have already occurred in whatever timeline existed before the time travel or we would never have done it. Either some iconians survived anyway, or Team Jerkass succeeded in stealing their technology and they were the original aggressors we went to stop the first time.
Similarly, there was never any chance of actually preventing the attack with time travel because of the Grandfather Paradox. Without an attack we would never have gone back in time in the first place.
As such, I imagined my character went into the past to save the iconians on purpose, to enable us to stop them in the present. That we had saved the iconians in the past, and would save the iconians again, was foretold by the Prophets in the Delta Recruit storyline.
Would've been smarter to leave Sela behind, though. Maybe saved Romulus in the process. But a stable time loop is a stable time loop.
Yeah they did their infographics and... while there are several particularly rabid KDF fans around.... peeps I've talked to in game just don't like Klingons, their fashion sense, the way they smell, the way their ships look, and/or the way their architecture looks. And yeah, if only 20% of the players have a KDF character then the low sales numbers for KDF ships MAKES SENSE.
And yet, the 20% are as much a part of the whole as the remaining 80%, And if you offer them something they wouldn't mind spending money on, then that's still more money in PWE's bank. The problem is that Cryptic has always treated anyone who wants to play exclusively as something other than a federation character as if they are second-class players. That is what created such a massive disparity between UFP and KDF players to begin with. When you go months and years watching one group getting most of the attention, it's kind of hard to summon much enthusiasm. And when you cannot play an MMO the way you want, you are more likely to not play at all rather than just conform.
you're yelling at the wind. some of us were pointing this out in 2012, when there were MORE of us (KDF Players) with even LESS content and attention.
it's like trying to stuff the mushroom cloud back in the steel casing-the die was cast with the failure of the Bortasque to sell to KDF players, (who had nothing where it was an asset instead of a liability.)
Cryptic chose (and chooses) to only serve the majority. That majority gets recalculated with every quarterly earning statement. The trend will never reverse, because they can't afford it now. the fanbase is set, it's not going to increase, and certainly not going to increase for non-Federation players. The company simply can't afford to take real risks, which is why you get to have two starter zones added for Federation characters, plus two Federation auxilliae (Romulan and Jem'Hadar), while KDF is basically half-a-faction and has no relevance beyond making the Federation look good.
most people who play the KDF would agree the Bort was a setup for faliure to begin with. that ship flies so poorly and is so far from the normal KDF play style it was doomed to begin with. what I would like to see is a poll, not here on the forum, but in the game it'self. a one question poll before you log in.. what ship did you buy the escort pack for? 1. did not buy the pack, 2. the Defiant 3 the Kor 4 the T'varo.
I'm betting that although the resposes for the defiant will be more, that when you take into acount the fed players vs KDF, the Kor ws the deciding factor by a large margin.
a couple comments about the Klingons and the Ferengi. The ferengi were originally conseived s a "modern Klingon" faction but thier first couple of appearances, especially Armin Shimmerman's first role, made them too cartoonish to be "bad guys". When he was cast as Quark for DS9 he really campaigned to change the way Ferengi were perceived.
The Klingons were the Soviets, Big powerful mysterious enemy that was only kept at bay by the technology and cunning of Sarfleet officers. Romulans were China of the 60s. Again, powerful, but very mysterious. Remember , the US really didn't know what China was like until after Nixon opened then culturally in the 70s.
even through the first 5 movies we associated the Klingons with the Soviets, right down to thier rapid decline. but when they decided to run TNG they realised that modality would never work, especially with Worf, so they adopted Japan, and made the Klingon Warrior much more like the Samurai, and thier code of Honor.. Bushido.
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Others include Capella(the Klingons tried to talk the locals into allowing themselves to be subjugated), Neural(a bit different in that the Klingons backed one faction of the locals in the intent of creating a dictatorship loyal to their Klingon overlords), also Elas and Troyius (which they wanted to capture for the Dilithium mining). That's just in TOS!
So yeah, a lot of the people complaining about how Cryptic writes Klingons make me wonder whether they watched the TV show.
My character Tsin'xing
Here's the thing: I came to STO because I wanted to play a Romulan. I wouldn't want to be one, but in Star Fleet Battles and Star Trek the RPG I was the guy that played the Romulans, so I was pretty stoked when STO went F2P and I could afford to log in.
There was no Romulan playable character. You had to get a Vulcan and say he was Romulan, which turned out to be pointless because nobody roleplays here. (At least not in public.)
So, I says to myself, I'll play a Klingon!
Nope. Had to be level 20 as a FED, and there was no story, just a few dailies, Kerrat, and PvP queues. Ouch.
So I made a Trill Scientist, (astrophysicist,) and jumped in on the Science Vessels. Then when I could I made a Klink BoPper. Fun times.
And eventually LoR came out and I could get a Romulan! Yay! I ran my guy up and turned him into a fairly decent character, made another and ran her up, started a third. I bought Romulan stuff, spent Dil on Romulan stuff, hell, I said Jolan Tru to everybody I saw.
And apparently there weren't many like me because we started hearing about lousy sales of Rom stuff.
I can't personally afford to hire a developer to build Romulan stuff. Lots of people can do it a little at a time by buying Romulan stuff but it would have to be consistent, regular, and ongoing.
And that's the thing tha 90% of the argument ignores. The developers don't hate Klingons. They can't sell Klingons. Whose fault is that? Who cares at this point. If Klingon stuff sold the developers would makemore, because deep down they are not ogres, they are Ferengi.
My character Tsin'xing
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
- They're shown attacking planets with the intent of conquest. That's... kinda what Klingons do themselves.
- They're shown developing and deploying a vaccine against zombification of their war dead (which almost certainly violates the 1980 Geneva Additional Protocols against desecration of a body, as well as being functionally r@pe as a war crime).
- They're shown developing and deploying chemical weapons against the zombies. Breaks the Chemical Weapons Convention but A, the Vaadwaur are not signatories, and B, they're using it as a tactical battlefield weapon against enemy regular soldiers to conserve their very limited forces, not as a weapon of genocide.
- They're shown killing Talaxians because Gaul is a whiny little fascist b***h who throws temper tantrums when he doesn't get what he wants. There's no evidence this is a standard behavior, and in fact there's evidence to the contrary: the mere fact that he needed to infest all his senior commanders with bluegills suggests they wouldn't willingly have gone along with his alliance with the Iconians or most of the actions that followed therefrom.
They planned to use omega molecules as a firebreak around their own space, against the frakking Borg. That's actually rather smart: they don't use traditional warp technology so it may not affect them. And who knows? Maybe, just like the Lukari kept studying protomatter technology instead of declaring it too dangerous to use and never touching it again, they'll figure something else out.(Actually, I don't seriously think they could, but because of Voth denialism of anything that contradicts Doctrine, not because I believe it's impossible in and of itself.)
A, you completely misrepresent the Klingon sense of honor. Worf pointed out explicitly in "Looking for par'Mach in All the Wrong Places" that Quark's stunt only worked because Quark was brave enough to meet D'Ghor face to face and dare him to kill him, after proving with copious hard evidence how D'Ghor had previously acted without honor. Said another way, Gowron stepped in because Quark made his case and staked his life on its truthfulness. If Gowron and the High Council hadn't been watching D'Ghor would've just chopped him in half. This video has a more thorough explanation than I have time to type out:
B, not just attacking the Iconians in the past, but erasing them from history entirely is the first thing on everybody's minds when the Annorax is made operational. (I don't clearly remember if the Klinks had an in-person representative in that mission, but given that one of their officers is supreme allied commander, do you seriously think they weren't consulted?)
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Technically speaking, what the Klingons did with Philippa wasn't exactly cannibalism. Cannibalism is defined by one species eating a member of their own species. Since Klingons are eating a human, it wouldn't be cannibalism as we know it.
And how is the vaccine going to reach the bodies the zombies have in storage (both in the Vaad cryo vault and presumably elsewhere)?
B: The fact I call them zombies and will continue to call them zombies really shows how I think they're a horrible bunch of people who should've been the villains of the story arc instead of the Vaadwaur. That honest enough for you?
Argumentum ad ignorantium. "We have no evidence for what effect it would have, therefore the effect would be bad." The fact the Voth think it might work suggests they have information you don't, that they are disinclined to share with you because (I'm assuming) you're a dirty stinkin' mammal.
Really? Because as I recall, wiping out the Iconians entirely was actually the first scenario they gamed out before the PC even arrived. Delaying the discovery of Iconia was somewhere around fourth.
You need to reread the post, and actually watch the video this time, because the Klingon sense of honor is a lot more nuanced than you wish it was. It wasn't the fact that Quark was unarmed that proved D'Ghor's dishonor. Klingons attack unarmed targets all the time, especially in war. But Quark proved his point before the High Council with facts, evidence, and when he was challenged to trial by combat, he knew perfectly well he didn't stand a chance against D'Ghor in a fair fight but he showed up anyway, just to spit in his enemy's eye. That, in the Klingon mind, makes him not just right (and dead), but worthy (and alive), because he's shown he'll stand his ground and put his money where his mouth is.
Worf's point in the later episode was that this wouldn't work with the challenge over dating Lady Grilka in the later episode: her chaperone would just go ahead and beat the TRIBBLE out of him, because Quark had not already proven his point, i.e. that he was worthy to date Grilka.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Pretty much everyone that got into Star Trek got it via the Starfleet Point of View, so limiting the Starfleet faction the most is most likely to lead to disappointment. Most (not all) Star Trek games in the past have either been Federation focused, or were strategy games with a PvP focused multiplayer component.
If you don't have a licensee breathing down your neck with licensing fees and agreements, and you don't have an established IP, you would just make things very, very different.
There are really not that many "Generic Science Fiction Space Online" games. Eve and Elite Dangeorus might qualify, but as I understand, neither really have a concept of strict factions. They are about player-run groups mostly and even in PvE have basically no story content! So instead of having one fleshed out faction and one barebones PvP only factions, you basically have only barebones PvE and PvP factions.
But just as you wouldn't take the STO approach with a generic sci fi game, you probably shouldn't take the EVE or Elite Dangerous approach to Star Trek.
The supposed problem of the population imbalance is just semantic nitpicking over the word "faction." If Cryptic went through the game and replaced all mentions of "faction" with the more accurate "origin story," there would be absolutely no issue at all and nobody would say it's a sign of anything being wrong that people prefer some origins over others.
And the Player Character, regardless of origin, is presented as a practical and responsible problem solver of few words and generic personality, as well as the most awesome fighter in the universe. I wouldn't call that "Federation-focused," but a standard videogame hero. In that aspect the Star Trek name is if anything a hindrance rather than a help. If this were an original science fiction game, nobody would be complaining this-or-that race isn't acting stereotypically enough for them.
The Vaadwaur are not shown to have any capability for wide deployment of their aerosolized chemical weapon (the writers conflated terms again*), only launch by artillery shell: they can't do it by ship because they don't have space superiority with the Alliance in the way. Which is effective out against targets out in no-man's-land (until the enemy starts using haz-mat gear anyway), but not against the shielded, fortified city the Kobali are shown to have (the theatre shield is shown easily fending off sustained bombardments).
* What's shown and described is the properties of a chemical agent. A biological weapon that kills its victims instantaneously (as seen when the weapon is deployed by artillery in the battlezone missions) makes a very poor weapon of mass destruction, because it can't self-replicate and spread itself beyond the initial exposure area (even an airborne one). That was actually demonstrated in one of the recent Ebola outbreaks: the strain of Ebola virus involved was so lethal it actually couldn't spread as fast because it killed its victims too quickly.
The fact you think I've ever advocated those really only shows you don't own a dictionary and like to rely on emotional gut reactions to choice of weapon over uncomfortable realities.
The Kobali are systematic mass r@pists: they reproduce using other humanoids without their consent and then brainwash them into behaving like themselves, and if the brainwashing doesn't take and you decide you want your old life back? Tough noogies -- you get hunted down by their military and hauled back home for reindoctrination. (Don't give me that ridiculous argument about how "it's just humans that work that way": you really think that in a less illiberal society that hasn't seen it happen before repeatedly, that Lyndsay Ballard's self-proclaimed "father" would have been able to get two military vessels deployed to chase after his runaway daughter?) And they think this behavior is a "cultural right", while offering no respect whatsoever for other cultures. I refuse to accept any such thing as a "cultural right" to oppress others.
That's strike one, two, and three. Strike four is repeatedly deceiving the allies who dropped everything to come help them. Strike five is that they contribute nothing to the Alliance war effort that doesn't come from Alliance resource expenditure (other than warm bodies, which we can get plenty of from much less awful people).
One scientist thought it was a bad idea. As noted, Federation scientists, supposedly the best in the galaxy, thought that protomatter was impossible to use safely, but the Lukari do exactly that all the time.
So you concede the point: the Klingons would have been willing to wipe out the Iconians altogether if the cost-to-benefit ratio had been more favorable.
Kagran is manifestly a moron and didn't even come close to exploring all his options. For example: if you obey the Temporal Prime Directive and just leave, Team Jerkass wipes out the Iconians in the past like they were supposed to in the timeline that must have existed before you started tampering with it, and the entire war never happens in the first place. (Of course that also means the events of the 2009 movie don't happen and the Romulan Star Empire is still around, but I can live with that.)
Wiping out the Iconians in the past is immoral because the Iconians of the past didn't attack anybody. And being attacked in the past is not why they became "naturally ****". Billions of people have s***ty lives that are the result of the actions of entitled pricks like -200,000 BC's Team Jerkass, and most of them don't become mass murderers over it: they just try to live the best they can. Nobody made the Iconians retaliate against trillions of innocents 200,000 years removed from the original offense, they chose to do that on their own. (There's that "mass murder", "war crimes", and "genocide" you were looking for, by the way.)
That is the action, the choice, of a "natural ****".
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Similarly, there was never any chance of actually preventing the attack with time travel because of the Grandfather Paradox. Without an attack we would never have gone back in time in the first place.
As such, I imagined my character went into the past to save the iconians on purpose, to enable us to stop them in the present. That we had saved the iconians in the past, and would save the iconians again, was foretold by the Prophets in the Delta Recruit storyline.
Would've been smarter to leave Sela behind, though. Maybe saved Romulus in the process. But a stable time loop is a stable time loop.
most people who play the KDF would agree the Bort was a setup for faliure to begin with. that ship flies so poorly and is so far from the normal KDF play style it was doomed to begin with. what I would like to see is a poll, not here on the forum, but in the game it'self. a one question poll before you log in.. what ship did you buy the escort pack for? 1. did not buy the pack, 2. the Defiant 3 the Kor 4 the T'varo.
I'm betting that although the resposes for the defiant will be more, that when you take into acount the fed players vs KDF, the Kor ws the deciding factor by a large margin.
The Klingons were the Soviets, Big powerful mysterious enemy that was only kept at bay by the technology and cunning of Sarfleet officers. Romulans were China of the 60s. Again, powerful, but very mysterious. Remember , the US really didn't know what China was like until after Nixon opened then culturally in the 70s.
even through the first 5 movies we associated the Klingons with the Soviets, right down to thier rapid decline. but when they decided to run TNG they realised that modality would never work, especially with Worf, so they adopted Japan, and made the Klingon Warrior much more like the Samurai, and thier code of Honor.. Bushido.