You could arguably get away with a simpler metric in a tiered system that is purely used for allowing players to go up to a different tier. They don't have to play up but they gain access to it.
Say a simple formula that gives an experience amount based on performance in a game based on your basic kill/death, damage done out of total for team etc. Make sure it's never a particularly high number unless you do amazing. After "X" xp gained you have access to play at higher tier with more options. System just computes the formula at game end for each player and they have a running score of their XP...that's minimal server drain.
The money to be made with a large scale PvP star trek space combat game I would think to be pretty big, especially on top of the big draw to the rpg side from new players.
Experienced PvP players will likely cruise right through to higher levels and be able to hit the top tier with their standard killer ships...and more players would be climbing the tiers learning and building to join them. Would take time to fill out be the potential is huge.
The competitive Player Potential system is supposed to consider win/loss statistics already, along with gear and whatever else they talked about, I forget. I think it's really disingenious to call something as being so very hard to do when it's already done in another area of the game.
we have zero evidence that it works, and lots of evidence that it doesn't.
a mechanism that fails is not a model for a mechanism that works.
Lots of talk about evidence is not evidence itself.
Yes a more experienced player in PvP will win vs. less experienced at same tier...but considering a team the overall teams will likely even out and it will still let newer players learn without being kill in seconds...it still makes for a much better game and we don't have to overcomplicate with a match making system if we keep it at teams at same tier. Ultimately a 10 vs. 10 on a good big space map with terrain etc. Could be amazing. Imagine hunting the enemy players through asteroids etc.
The competitive Player Potential system is supposed to consider win/loss statistics already, along with gear and whatever else they talked about, I forget. I think it's really disingenious to call something as being so very hard to do when it's already done in another area of the game.
we have zero evidence that it works, and lots of evidence that it doesn't.
a mechanism that fails is not a model for a mechanism that works.
Lots of talk about evidence is not evidence itself.
when was the last time a competitive queue popped (the only queues that actually USE the system) and wasn't a one-sided stomp?
Last time a competitive queue popped for me at all was before they spoiled the marks in the choiceboxes. I don't remember it ever being a "one-sided stomp," other than maybe once or twice in Binary Circuit landing on a team where apparently nobody could use the light bridge consoles at all and just stood there shooting things (easily solvable by learning to solo the puzzle).
put this way; i've seen Core Assault pop four times total int he last year where it wasn't a thoroughly one-sided map. (this is out of hundreds of runs when the queue was even active). I'm fair certain that the stack of traits and gear that lets you bypass teh 'death zone' and hit the other side's spawn-point there aren't common-but I've seen that done dozens of times, even after it was 'fixed' by the developers to prevent it.
If the other team is there at the end to be attacked, then it isn't one-sided. One-sided means they're still in the first puzzle when the other side finishes.
3) a working matchmaking algorithm that can take the win/loss/assist etc data from the leaderboard, and put out a matrix that can balance matches to a reasonable level of equality; aka within 10% probable win/loss in a given match.
I've seen lots of games do that. Step one is recording win/loss rates. Then you have a number that goes up or down based on it.
The trick is figuring out how much to increase and decrease the ranking number for each match.
Personally I think the one single thing that would help PvP tremendously is a nerf to Emergency Power to Engines.
The decline of PvP started with Legacy of Romulus when the ability was buffed, ever since then its been speedboat online, which has automatically disqualified cruisers and carriers from PvP.
Why single out EptE? Because someone back then got the bright idea to make the ability give players a massive flat speed bonus that is completely unaffected by a players engine status.
The solution to that particular mess is to turn the ability into a percentage based buff rather than a flat speed value added to the ship.
Would ending ludicrous speed fix PvP? Of course not! But it's a start and it would even the playing field and give new and less experienced players a chance to actually react to what's going around them. And it would most definitely make more ships "viable" again.
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid." - Q
Its not about selling it to anyone...I don't generally play PvP, no where near equipped for it. But I see what I think is the most direct and profitable route to get to a PvP system that builds what is almost a second game within sto. A fully tiered and supported PvP with interesting maps would require relatively little in the way of work considering it uses so much that's already in the game (including a ship tier system) but would almost be a whole new game...imagine selling sto as a full on fleet PvP game where players can battle it out in their favourite starships from their favourite races. That could be a major money maker as well as drawing players into the rpg part for years to come. New players come in, play up through the game in PvP then experiment in the rpg...get new ships at every tier to try out, play the rpg to pick up consoles, xp, marks for the rep system.
If I were in their shoes this is where I'd devote a little effort, especially with the renewed interest in star trek from the new shows now and upcoming. What amounts to practically a second game built into the framework of the old that loses nothing but can gain everything. Obviously we know this won't happen, but the mechanics and opportunities to me seem pretty obvious, and it can help relight the spark for long time players who PvP now.
One of the things the system would have to do, is be split between premade teams queues, and Pugging queues. That means a queue where you're not able to arrive with a premade team larger than 2.
so that's also another complication-some duplication of effort is going to happen (and that's another load on the server.)
So, teams do make a difference in this game...whoda thunk it.
Addition: There will need to be TEAM related score boards and leaderboards added, too.
Post edited by where2r1 on
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
Personally I think the one single thing that would help PvP tremendously is a nerf to Emergency Power to Engines.
The decline of PvP started with Legacy of Romulus when the ability was buffed, ever since then its been speedboat online, which has automatically disqualified cruisers and carriers from PvP.
Why single out EptE? Because someone back then got the bright idea to make the ability give players a massive flat speed bonus that is completely unaffected by a players engine status.
The solution to that particular mess is to turn the ability into a percentage based buff rather than a flat speed value added to the ship.
Would ending ludicrous speed fix PvP? Of course not! But it's a start and it would even the playing field and give new and less experienced players a chance to actually react to what's going around them. And it would most definitely make more ships "viable" again.
Alex, you're still only looking at a single symptom of the problem, instead of addressing the root. one power isn't going to change the over all picture. besides, it's not JUST EPTE going on here. A LOT of those "Speed builds" are running a mathematical stack that doesn't even require EPTE.
particularly apparent when you see this guy who isn't at full impulse crossing the map and circling it at 300x speed in cruise for sustained periods. (I've trailed some of these guys-at full impulse, they never pop that ability.)
The power-creep problem is one part shoddy workmanship and one part intentional marketing ploy.
it's also something that we have to account for and live with, because while other games survive on selling cosmetics, Cryptic relies on selling raw power.
Fair enough, I pretty much gave up on PvP entirely after LoR, since that's what "kicked off" the speed builds, so I haven't really kept up with how their doing it.
Regardless of methodology speed builds are so horrendously game breaking its not even funny, and still are IMHO the worst offenders of the resulting power creep.
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid." - Q
Fair enough, I pretty much gave up on PvP entirely after LoR, since that's what "kicked off" the speed builds, so I haven't really kept up with how their doing it.
Regardless of methodology speed builds are so horrendously game breaking its not even funny, and still are IMHO the worst offenders of the resulting power creep.
Well, when I was watching the PvP Bootcamp Tournament back in April...one can come back from the dead!!!!
With "Invincible" (immunity, shield and hull heal) and "Obfuscation Screen" (immunity, healing, and damage buff).
Not sure what is going on now...since I quit studying PvP shortly after a day of watching that tournament.
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
IF they had made "Invincible" and "Obfuscation Screen" only castable to team...not self use.
It may have been OK. Because it would make the teammates have to watch out for each other.
It, also, would take a huge bite out of the sales of the Walker and Zahl, I believe those are the ships it comes on.
As it is now, it is only for self preservation...so you are a solitary player among a team.
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
As it is now, it is only for self preservation...so you are a solitary player among a team.
And I think this is the REAL problem with STO....even when in a team or a group PvE....it is about what one can do for oneself...not what is going on with everyone else and what can be accomplished together.
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
As it is now, it is only for self preservation...so you are a solitary player among a team.
And I think this is the REAL problem with STO....even when in a team or a group PvE....it is about what one can do for oneself...not what is going on with everyone else and what can be accomplished together.
NOW you're hitting the root of the problem. STO may have 'group' content, but it's designed as a solo game, hell, even the other players in multiplayer treat each other like NPC's.
Yes, especially as most of the "group" content is perfectly playable solo, if not for the artificial requirement of X players to start it.
STO once HAD a bit or two of content that required players to communicate in order to complete it, but that content was removed, and this was years ago. The original Terrordome absolutely could not be completed without cooperation between players, for example. The consoles were too far apart and there were too many undine spawns between them to allow one guy to dominate the map.
It's an example of how the development angle changed on a philosophical level-from creating grouped content that had to be done by a group, to content that can be completed by solo players.
Now, business-wise it was probably a necessary move (or seen as one @ cryptic)-inevitably it's cheaper and easier to build content for a single player, run up the hitpoints and allow it to be a multiplayer co-op map. going for the lowest common denominator is almost always less expensive.
(I say "almost" because inevitably someone will have found an exception SOMEWHERE.)
Every shift since then has been to make AoE powers 'the thing', from FAW doing more damage to single targets than Beam Overload at the same rank, to wide-area subnuking (intel powers), the thrust has been to promote a single-player experience over and above teamwork in PvE. The ability to simultaneously tank an entire team, while vaping them is a symptom of this philosophical shift as well-The limiters have been removed on solo advancement.
this makes any sort of reworking of PvP a pointless (but occasionally entertaining) waste of time (or thought experiment)-simply put, too much of the company's effort has gone into eliminating balance and selling the power fantasy.
That this also goes along with the removal of factional relevance, (Eliminating Factional balance) and Cryptic's inability to develop a working Matchmaking (thus, no scenario balancing) means PvP is the lost cause of STO, it's there, it's 'permitted' but that isn't the same as being 'playable', nor even the same as being an asset (as opposed to a liability.)
I agree with the arguments, but not the conclusion.
This is the way it is, yes, undoubtedly.
This is not the way it has to be forever.
I may never see playable PvP again. But asking for a thing, and pointing out how it would make money for them, isn't going to get me less PvP. And who knows? It might just work.
Longshot? Yes, but I buy this lottery ticket knowing the odds. One day lightning may strike out of a clear blue sky.
Comments
Say a simple formula that gives an experience amount based on performance in a game based on your basic kill/death, damage done out of total for team etc.
Make sure it's never a particularly high number unless you do amazing.
After "X" xp gained you have access to play at higher tier with more options.
System just computes the formula at game end for each player and they have a running score of their XP...that's minimal server drain.
The money to be made with a large scale PvP star trek space combat game I would think to be pretty big, especially on top of the big draw to the rpg side from new players.
Experienced PvP players will likely cruise right through to higher levels and be able to hit the top tier with their standard killer ships...and more players would be climbing the tiers learning and building to join them. Would take time to fill out be the potential is huge.
Yes a more experienced player in PvP will win vs. less experienced at same tier...but considering a team the overall teams will likely even out and it will still let newer players learn without being kill in seconds...it still makes for a much better game and we don't have to overcomplicate with a match making system if we keep it at teams at same tier.
Ultimately a 10 vs. 10 on a good big space map with terrain etc. Could be amazing. Imagine hunting the enemy players through asteroids etc.
If the other team is there at the end to be attacked, then it isn't one-sided. One-sided means they're still in the first puzzle when the other side finishes.
The trick is figuring out how much to increase and decrease the ranking number for each match.
My character Tsin'xing
The decline of PvP started with Legacy of Romulus when the ability was buffed, ever since then its been speedboat online, which has automatically disqualified cruisers and carriers from PvP.
Why single out EptE? Because someone back then got the bright idea to make the ability give players a massive flat speed bonus that is completely unaffected by a players engine status.
The solution to that particular mess is to turn the ability into a percentage based buff rather than a flat speed value added to the ship.
Would ending ludicrous speed fix PvP? Of course not! But it's a start and it would even the playing field and give new and less experienced players a chance to actually react to what's going around them. And it would most definitely make more ships "viable" again.
A fully tiered and supported PvP with interesting maps would require relatively little in the way of work considering it uses so much that's already in the game (including a ship tier system) but would almost be a whole new game...imagine selling sto as a full on fleet PvP game where players can battle it out in their favourite starships from their favourite races. That could be a major money maker as well as drawing players into the rpg part for years to come. New players come in, play up through the game in PvP then experiment in the rpg...get new ships at every tier to try out, play the rpg to pick up consoles, xp, marks for the rep system.
If I were in their shoes this is where I'd devote a little effort, especially with the renewed interest in star trek from the new shows now and upcoming. What amounts to practically a second game built into the framework of the old that loses nothing but can gain everything.
Obviously we know this won't happen, but the mechanics and opportunities to me seem pretty obvious, and it can help relight the spark for long time players who PvP now.
So, teams do make a difference in this game...whoda thunk it.
Addition: There will need to be TEAM related score boards and leaderboards added, too.
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
Fair enough, I pretty much gave up on PvP entirely after LoR, since that's what "kicked off" the speed builds, so I haven't really kept up with how their doing it.
Regardless of methodology speed builds are so horrendously game breaking its not even funny, and still are IMHO the worst offenders of the resulting power creep.
Well, when I was watching the PvP Bootcamp Tournament back in April...one can come back from the dead!!!!
With "Invincible" (immunity, shield and hull heal) and "Obfuscation Screen" (immunity, healing, and damage buff).
Not sure what is going on now...since I quit studying PvP shortly after a day of watching that tournament.
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
It may have been OK. Because it would make the teammates have to watch out for each other.
It, also, would take a huge bite out of the sales of the Walker and Zahl, I believe those are the ships it comes on.
As it is now, it is only for self preservation...so you are a solitary player among a team.
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
And I think this is the REAL problem with STO....even when in a team or a group PvE....it is about what one can do for oneself...not what is going on with everyone else and what can be accomplished together.
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
My favorite snippet of this thread!
I agree with the arguments, but not the conclusion.
This is the way it is, yes, undoubtedly.
This is not the way it has to be forever.
I may never see playable PvP again. But asking for a thing, and pointing out how it would make money for them, isn't going to get me less PvP. And who knows? It might just work.
Longshot? Yes, but I buy this lottery ticket knowing the odds. One day lightning may strike out of a clear blue sky.
may u find peace inbetween the other pvp threads and the thing in whole