a thought cross my mind just now.
i know it was said that biggest problem is balancing weapons in pvp, because the pve (different stats). but what if solution is really simple. instead of balancing weapons, just balance ship class by giving them similar hp(healt pool) values as in pve (enemy npc ships).
like borg have 400k hp, and tolian weaver is something like 170k hp. so we apply those numbers temporarily in pvp matches, ship class multiplied by certain amount. depending by class).
this way devs. don't have to waste time balancing things x2.
They're not really that interested in wasting time balancing things for PvE, beyond "well, let's nerf this so that new thing sells better."
That's kinda what you're not getting; The runaway powercreep is completely and totally intentional, the game is unbalanced because it sells lockboxes.
Or upgrade packs, or...you get the idea? There are some loosely cosmetic efforts at balancing, and CrypticSpartan did put a serious (probably the ONLY serious) effort (by a dev that didn't get fired-the last guy who tried was Adjudicatorhawk, and he didn't keep his job in the middle of doing the work, of course, officially it's 'amicable'...) at trying to impose some kind of game balancing.
In simple terms, those PvE sacks-o'-hitpoints are there to make PvE missions last to a specific point of time. That's it, that's all they're there for, and all that the devs will do with them, they last long enough to spur sales of the next bit of powercreep and make the DPS people feel like they're progressing.
in short, there is no balancing being done.
at least, beyond the point necessary to insure that every three months, there's going to be a 'must have' to drive whatever sale the metrics suggest they need to use for fundraising.
It's the same 'balancing' used by Magic:the Gathering, Warhammer 40k, and other collectible games-introduce something overpowered and grossly unfair, make it 'the' thing to have for a while, nerf the **** out of it, and introduce the next one.
if that is true, they are losing huge amounts of money pvp could bring them. but there is no reason to not believe just looking at the state of pvp now.
It's a hypothesis that fits both the evidence, and Developer statements. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it invalid. If you can provide evidence that PvP is in great shape, with lots of players fighting fun matches and wanting to come back, please, by all means, step up and show it.
because newsflash; That ain't what's going on, and no amount of gaslighting to protect fragile egoes in California is going to magically make it otherwise.
Likewise, Those of us who've been watching this and being honest with those observations can certainly provide a series of evidence for the business model of "Release/nerf/release" powercreep. Even give specific examples. Can you do the same in counter? I think not.
Instead I will question causality. Most nerfs AREN'T related to PvP.
If they wanted PvP they don't have to turn back the clock, just build from ground up. Have open free for all, arena, and mission specific battles.
Its a tiered league system. When you have scored X many points in a league you may advance to the next tier if you want. Tier 1, you fly tier 1 ships. Limits on consoles. Tier 2, tier 2 ships. Only special consoles from ships of this tier or lower Tier 3, tier 3 ships, start allowing a number of universal consoles. Tier 4, tier 4 ships. Tier 5, tier 5 ships, allow more consoles. Tier 6, tier 6 ships, more consoles allowed. Tier 7 free for all....anything goes TRIBBLE kicking.
You could restrict the number of special consoles (ie, you get one universal at tier 3 from those allowed) This allows to build but not totally overwhelm.
This would also let players gain experience on the way to the higher leagues while keeping a fairly level playing field by creating a mid tier area where everyone can mix it up. I think this would create some really interesting games without having players who can basically one shot kill everyone....would require more skill and allow newer players to gain experience as they went up the tiers.
What do you do about: Specializations? Rep? Traits? Doffs? BOFFs? Fleet gear or no?
Add those features into the Level Matching system which is already in game but has never been updated to include them. Before thse things came into the game the level matching system did a good job of dropping level 50 captains so they could fly with the level 20 guy without overpowering him, and italso did a good job of leveling the level 20 guy up, (but he would lack the ship and gear to compete at Admiral level.
What do you do about: Specializations? Rep? Traits? Doffs? BOFFs? Fleet gear or no?
Add those features into the Level Matching system which is already in game but has never been updated to include them. Before thse things came into the game the level matching system did a good job of dropping level 50 captains so they could fly with the level 20 guy without overpowering him, and italso did a good job of leveling the level 20 guy up, (but he would lack the ship and gear to compete at Admiral level.
The other thing we don't know: IS THAT NEW SKILL TREE working with the "Level Matching" system that is "already in the game"??? I don't think is, either.
They are trying to scale the PvE queues between Level 10 and top level players...because they added queues to the Mission Journal, allowing lower level players to do them. And they want to because...it unlocks the next season of stories for them.
With parts of the skill tree lower level players can't even touch....and "The Ultimates" etc, that the top level players can. How is the program set up to deal with equalizing that mess? Not really that well from the looks of that bug report section or even general discussion.
And then throw in the stuff I mentioned above: Specializations, traits, rep, DOFFs, BOFFS, Fleet gear...that a lower level player...scratch that. Not just lower level players, CASUAL level players....probably can't even think about getting a hold of for a long time....if ever?
And then on top of that Cryptic keeps adding on more and more and more and more and it keeps changing the bar on what is needed gear wise to compete. A lot of players, those who still bother to play, have decided to completely get OFF of that train.
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
What do you do about: Specializations? Rep? Traits? Doffs? BOFFs? Fleet gear or no?
Add those features into the Level Matching system which is already in game but has never been updated to include them. Before thse things came into the game the level matching system did a good job of dropping level 50 captains so they could fly with the level 20 guy without overpowering him, and italso did a good job of leveling the level 20 guy up, (but he would lack the ship and gear to compete at Admiral level.
The other thing we don't know: IS THAT NEW SKILL TREE working with the "Level Matching" system that is "already in the game"??? I don't think is, either.
They are trying to scale the PvE queues between Level 10 and top level players...because they added queues to the Mission Journal, allowing lower level players to do them. And they want to because...it unlocks the next season of stories for them.
With parts of the skill tree lower level players can't even touch....and "The Ultimates" etc, that the top level players can. How is the program set up to deal with equalizing that mess? Not really that well from the looks of that bug report section or even general discussion.
And then throw in the stuff I mentioned above: Specializations, traits, rep, DOFFs, BOFFS, Fleet gear...that a lower level player...scratch that. Not just lower level players, CASUAL level players....probably can't even think about getting a hold of for a long time....if ever?
And then on top of that Cryptic keeps adding on more and more and more and more and it keeps changing the bar on what is needed gear wise to compete. A lot of players, those who still bother to play, have decided to completely get OFF of that train.
As I said, it would require the inclusion of everything that was implemented after the last time the level matching system was updated. But the level matching system is in game, and because it is, it should be technically feasible to include the newer systems. The question of its cost effectiveness is another issue entirely.
I happen to believe, based on my experience with season 4&5 PvP that PvP players are incredibly motivated to purchase ships, gear, account upgrades, and virtually anything new which is not simply cosmetic. Space Barbie players, once they have the perfect ship and costume, are not motivated to buy anything else. But PvPers are constantly tweaking to get the advantage, and they are constantly searching for the new meta which will beat the old ones. I believe they are a class of players who will return the investment.
I think it was an error on Cryptic's part to look at the low participation and say that PvP wasn't worth retaining, because I saw a lot of money being spent by that small minority of players.
I think it was an error on Cryptic's part to look at the low participation and say that PvP wasn't worth retaining, because I saw a lot of money being spent by that small minority of players.
There still is a very, very small group of players doing this, mostly for DPS....and that s dying, too...because they backed off on giving those players a challenge. And it is dull.
I don't think Cryptic understands, and it is pretty basic: competition (which is what challenges is all about) breeds this "want to improve". So, they took it out of everything an replaced it with clicky things to do to keep people "doing".
I am not even getting loot drops at Mark 15...it is all just junk. I can't even think about improving without playing the clicky game. All the way from gaining tokens through gaining mods....that is all clicky game.
Here's the clicky game I am playing: Hey, Vendor, do you want my trash?
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
And that is not even addressing this silly game the Devs started playing with everyone: SELLING the "good stuff" and making the "better stuff", sticking it in the most expensive prize boxes.
Yeah, some stuff needs to be exclusive...but not the stuff players need to play the game effectively.
Edit: How do you scale something when it is either on or off, anyways? And when it is "on" it is maxed?
I think they would have to program it one by one for each tier. ???? That could take forever.
Post edited by where2r1 on
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
If they wanted PvP they don't have to turn back the clock, just build from ground up.
Have open free for all, arena, and mission specific battles.
Its a tiered league system. When you have scored X many points in a league you may advance to the next tier if you want.
Tier 1, you fly tier 1 ships. Limits on consoles.
Tier 2, tier 2 ships. Only special consoles from ships of this tier or lower
Tier 3, tier 3 ships, start allowing a number of universal consoles.
Tier 4, tier 4 ships.
Tier 5, tier 5 ships, allow more consoles.
Tier 6, tier 6 ships, more consoles allowed.
Tier 7 free for all....anything goes TRIBBLE kicking.
You could restrict the number of special consoles (ie, you get one universal at tier 3 from those allowed)
This allows to build but not totally overwhelm.
This would also let players gain experience on the way to the higher leagues while keeping a fairly level playing field by creating a mid tier area where everyone can mix it up.
I think this would create some really interesting games without having players who can basically one shot kill everyone....would require more skill and allow newer players to gain experience as they went up the tiers.
Just a thought.
You wanna know an even more simple solution? Have PvP only gear that you must use that is the same power level as white mark X gear. Have the same for boff powers. Disable traits of all kinds and doff abilities. That requires a hell of a lot less work than what you propose...and fixes a lot more issues with PvP...and they won't even do that. So what makes you think they will do your more complicated, more work while STILL having balance issues version again?
Because that would be demonetizing it. Why the hell would they disable everything that makes them money?
On the other hand, people would happily PvP just fine despite all the supposed balance issues, if the rewards couldn't be more easily acquired elsewhere. The same old story as the PvE content.
Back to the PvP is dead and no one plays it stuff again I see. I played PvP with about 20 other people in Ker’rat today, 1 v 1 a dude, and did an arena match. Pretty typical day. You all keep acting like there’s just tumble weeds blowing around in PvP communities. We have several active discord servers, play daily, and have a core player base very knowledgeable about what it takes to do well. You act like PVE queues are just off the charts and community zones in game aren’t political cesspools. PvP is just as much alive as any other aspect of this game. Yeah, there’s a huge barrier to entry if you want to be good, and that sucks, but just stop with the lie that there are no PvP players, because I know plenty and play with them every time I log on.
Its strange.. i still got good fights Day for Day. Ofc its not the same like 3-4 Years ago but if you want play it you will find it.
btw. Guys.. it dossent really matter PvP or PvE.. a lot of Players just leave STO bc of Bugs.. Lags.. disappointing Content.. to much grind.. .
PvP & PvE got the same Problem at least.. no Players.
There are enough solutions ( over years ) to make the Game better ( PvP & PvE ) but it looks like Dev's dont want to listen or didnt understand.
Anyways..
The Devs don't listen, because it's not their problem, the income generators are still generating income, players are still joining the game at equal to or larger portions than the numbers that leave.
at least, that's what we're told publicly. of course, I think most of you can provide counters to that claim, but it's not a sufficient problem to require consideration or action at Cryptic Studios.
because these are NOT amatuers we're talking about-they're professionals, who've been in the industry a very long time collectively, and they're not showing any signs of worry or desperation, are they?
No increase or reliance on sales, or back-to-back-to-back events, no rushed out the door novelty content, right, or 'incentives' to try and lure back players from inactivity?
of course not.
yeah, I don't believe it either, but that side of the discussion should be kept in mind, if not as a fact, then as a position or perspective that nonetheless influences actions.
Proposed: the mass departure of the remaining leadership in the PvP community after Delta Rising is the only reason that @Cryptcspartan was able to do his research and work on the rebalance for season 13, it was the sole motivator for the so-called 'competitive reputation' being done at all.
but the internal politics of Cryptic Studios is why both were undermined almost immediately upon release.
why? because the perspective I just outlined above, persists inside the development team, and reaches to high levels in the Cryptic Studios Hierarchy.
Everything is fine, so long as Lockbox keys sell and Zen are still being purchased. all the rest is just ungrateful griping.
THIS is what you're dealing with, when you discuss PvP. The predatory "N00bkillaz" are the stereotype Cryptic's team believes in-the 'Elites' have gone silent, and silence, of course, implies consent, they still expend real world time and resources, so everything is just fine, the Whales are happy in their little mud-puddle.
This is a problem you can not defeat, because for them to seriously consider ANY of our suggestions, things will have to be so bad that it's cheaper to turn the servers off and move on to another game.
The next part of why this is a problem that can not be defeated, is the inevitable defense of "Industry Standard"; the claim that what they are doing, is right because the whole rest of the industry, including most of the titles that are failing, is doing the same thing, and experiencing the same thing, and somehow, that is a sign of everything 'going right'.
There is no sustained push to actually do better, because they have inertia, no drive to expand beyond catering to the bare majority, because they have metric reasons to be complacent.
in the end, it's not winnable.
The PvP community have always expressed open contempt for everything that makes the game money so that's to be expected. PvP players have not indicated themselves to be profitable customers, so they get ignored. Even this thread is full of suggestions they disable half the game to give you your precious balance. Never gonna happen. They're running a business here and disabling things people pay for isn't good business.
There is one thing guaranteed to bring players into any activity and that's good unique rewards. But barely anyone wants to talk about that. The PvP people hate talking about rewards at all and the PvE people just want their guaranteed universal choice boxes, as fast and easy as humanly possible. And them Cryptic listens to.
Rewards are the one thing Cryptic apparently struggles the most with. It's always the same old, same old for everything, every time. Dil and all-marks. Boring and non-diverse. No reason to play. Events at least have their unique tokens, but it's always once-per-day and events are rare (no, borg alert is not a real event even if they now call it one). So again, no reason to play more than that.
The PvP community have always expressed open contempt for everything that makes the game money so that's to be expected. PvP players have not indicated themselves to be profitable customers, so they get ignored. Even this thread is full of suggestions they disable half the game to give you your precious balance. Never gonna happen. They're running a business here and disabling things people pay for isn't good business.
I respect your right to hold any opinion you want, but where does this come from? I don't recall ever hearing a PvP player expressing contempt for new ships, for new gear, or new vanity items. I have heard discussions about the way some ships were laid out, the Bortasque for example, but I have completely missed the 'contempt for anything that makes the game money' bit. In fact, it was PvPers buying those ships and consoles they complained about who did the complaining.
Which brings us to the second sentence: as a percentage of the STO player base the PvP community was always small. But per individual, the PvP community spent more money than anyone else in the game. Nobody else had the need to own every console, every ship type, every gimmick STO sold. They may nbot have bought the TOS Klingon wardrobe, but they bought every ship STO issued. The PvP players were what the casinos call whales: they spent money on the game. I remember. I was there. Every new item was field tested in PvP.
Now, every suggestion disabling half the game, again, I ask, where is that? The suggestions I see are asking for things specific to PvP and have nothing to do with PvE. Your PvE experience will not change. Back in the day PvP players, who were on the cutting edge of new item purchases, often found unintended effects from items and brought these to the attention of the developers. The few times developers did actually nerf something it was always blamed on the PvP guys, but the truth is, almost always the nerf was almost the opposite of what the PvP crowd recommended. It was a running joke in OPvP that if you want an item nerfed, demand a buff.
Nobody wants to disable anything for PvE play. The PvP crowd just wants a level playing field when players join PvP. We don't have that, and right now is the worst it's ever been. Why shouldn't PvP be considered as a potential customer base, and treated as the loyal customers we've been all along? That's the part I don't understand: how ready you are to toss us out of your game when we could be spending more money and paying for PvE development along with our PvP developent. We aren't excluding you!
There is one thing guaranteed to bring players into any activity and that's good unique rewards. But barely anyone wants to talk about that. The PvP people hate talking about rewards at all and the PvE people just want their guaranteed universal choice boxes, as fast and easy as humanly possible. And them Cryptic listens to.
Rewards are the one thing Cryptic apparently struggles the most with. It's always the same old, same old for everything, every time. Dil and all-marks. Boring and non-diverse. No reason to play. Events at least have their unique tokens, but it's always once-per-day and events are rare (no, borg alert is not a real event even if they now call it one). So again, no reason to play more than that.
I don't hate talking about rewards. I just don't know which ones you have in mind. We asked for better PvP rewards for many years back when the PvP community was still vibrant. PvP gear, PvP marks, all sorts of stuff that would have no negative impact on the PvE crowd. As I recall, it was PvEers who objected to that. What we got was a daily dil bump that nobody in PvP needed because, quite frankly, after you learn to PvP, the PvE game gets ridiculously easy.
So, what kind of rewards do you want to talk about? I'm listening.
Comments
if that is true, they are losing huge amounts of money pvp could bring them. but there is no reason to not believe just looking at the state of pvp now.
oh well, i gave my 2 cents.
thnx all for conversation and discussion.
My character Tsin'xing
Have open free for all, arena, and mission specific battles.
Its a tiered league system. When you have scored X many points in a league you may advance to the next tier if you want.
Tier 1, you fly tier 1 ships. Limits on consoles.
Tier 2, tier 2 ships. Only special consoles from ships of this tier or lower
Tier 3, tier 3 ships, start allowing a number of universal consoles.
Tier 4, tier 4 ships.
Tier 5, tier 5 ships, allow more consoles.
Tier 6, tier 6 ships, more consoles allowed.
Tier 7 free for all....anything goes TRIBBLE kicking.
You could restrict the number of special consoles (ie, you get one universal at tier 3 from those allowed)
This allows to build but not totally overwhelm.
This would also let players gain experience on the way to the higher leagues while keeping a fairly level playing field by creating a mid tier area where everyone can mix it up.
I think this would create some really interesting games without having players who can basically one shot kill everyone....would require more skill and allow newer players to gain experience as they went up the tiers.
Just a thought.
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
Add those features into the Level Matching system which is already in game but has never been updated to include them. Before thse things came into the game the level matching system did a good job of dropping level 50 captains so they could fly with the level 20 guy without overpowering him, and italso did a good job of leveling the level 20 guy up, (but he would lack the ship and gear to compete at Admiral level.
The other thing we don't know: IS THAT NEW SKILL TREE working with the "Level Matching" system that is "already in the game"??? I don't think is, either.
They are trying to scale the PvE queues between Level 10 and top level players...because they added queues to the Mission Journal, allowing lower level players to do them. And they want to because...it unlocks the next season of stories for them.
With parts of the skill tree lower level players can't even touch....and "The Ultimates" etc, that the top level players can. How is the program set up to deal with equalizing that mess? Not really that well from the looks of that bug report section or even general discussion.
And then throw in the stuff I mentioned above: Specializations, traits, rep, DOFFs, BOFFS, Fleet gear...that a lower level player...scratch that. Not just lower level players, CASUAL level players....probably can't even think about getting a hold of for a long time....if ever?
And then on top of that Cryptic keeps adding on more and more and more and more and it keeps changing the bar on what is needed gear wise to compete. A lot of players, those who still bother to play, have decided to completely get OFF of that train.
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
As I said, it would require the inclusion of everything that was implemented after the last time the level matching system was updated. But the level matching system is in game, and because it is, it should be technically feasible to include the newer systems. The question of its cost effectiveness is another issue entirely.
I happen to believe, based on my experience with season 4&5 PvP that PvP players are incredibly motivated to purchase ships, gear, account upgrades, and virtually anything new which is not simply cosmetic. Space Barbie players, once they have the perfect ship and costume, are not motivated to buy anything else. But PvPers are constantly tweaking to get the advantage, and they are constantly searching for the new meta which will beat the old ones. I believe they are a class of players who will return the investment.
I think it was an error on Cryptic's part to look at the low participation and say that PvP wasn't worth retaining, because I saw a lot of money being spent by that small minority of players.
There still is a very, very small group of players doing this, mostly for DPS....and that s dying, too...because they backed off on giving those players a challenge. And it is dull.
I don't think Cryptic understands, and it is pretty basic: competition (which is what challenges is all about) breeds this "want to improve". So, they took it out of everything an replaced it with clicky things to do to keep people "doing".
I am not even getting loot drops at Mark 15...it is all just junk. I can't even think about improving without playing the clicky game. All the way from gaining tokens through gaining mods....that is all clicky game.
Here's the clicky game I am playing: Hey, Vendor, do you want my trash?
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
Yeah, some stuff needs to be exclusive...but not the stuff players need to play the game effectively.
Edit: How do you scale something when it is either on or off, anyways? And when it is "on" it is maxed?
I think they would have to program it one by one for each tier. ???? That could take forever.
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
On the other hand, people would happily PvP just fine despite all the supposed balance issues, if the rewards couldn't be more easily acquired elsewhere. The same old story as the PvE content.
Its strange.. i still got good fights Day for Day. Ofc its not the same like 3-4 Years ago but if you want play it you will find it.
btw. Guys.. it dossent really matter PvP or PvE.. a lot of Players just leave STO bc of Bugs.. Lags.. disappointing Content.. to much grind.. .
PvP & PvE got the same Problem at least.. no Players.
There are enough solutions ( over years ) to make the Game better ( PvP & PvE ) but it looks like Dev's dont want to listen or didnt understand.
Anyways..
David
*** Aktiv since 03.06.10 ***
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
There is one thing guaranteed to bring players into any activity and that's good unique rewards. But barely anyone wants to talk about that. The PvP people hate talking about rewards at all and the PvE people just want their guaranteed universal choice boxes, as fast and easy as humanly possible. And them Cryptic listens to.
Rewards are the one thing Cryptic apparently struggles the most with. It's always the same old, same old for everything, every time. Dil and all-marks. Boring and non-diverse. No reason to play. Events at least have their unique tokens, but it's always once-per-day and events are rare (no, borg alert is not a real event even if they now call it one). So again, no reason to play more than that.
I respect your right to hold any opinion you want, but where does this come from? I don't recall ever hearing a PvP player expressing contempt for new ships, for new gear, or new vanity items. I have heard discussions about the way some ships were laid out, the Bortasque for example, but I have completely missed the 'contempt for anything that makes the game money' bit. In fact, it was PvPers buying those ships and consoles they complained about who did the complaining.
Which brings us to the second sentence: as a percentage of the STO player base the PvP community was always small. But per individual, the PvP community spent more money than anyone else in the game. Nobody else had the need to own every console, every ship type, every gimmick STO sold. They may nbot have bought the TOS Klingon wardrobe, but they bought every ship STO issued. The PvP players were what the casinos call whales: they spent money on the game. I remember. I was there. Every new item was field tested in PvP.
Now, every suggestion disabling half the game, again, I ask, where is that? The suggestions I see are asking for things specific to PvP and have nothing to do with PvE. Your PvE experience will not change. Back in the day PvP players, who were on the cutting edge of new item purchases, often found unintended effects from items and brought these to the attention of the developers. The few times developers did actually nerf something it was always blamed on the PvP guys, but the truth is, almost always the nerf was almost the opposite of what the PvP crowd recommended. It was a running joke in OPvP that if you want an item nerfed, demand a buff.
Nobody wants to disable anything for PvE play. The PvP crowd just wants a level playing field when players join PvP. We don't have that, and right now is the worst it's ever been. Why shouldn't PvP be considered as a potential customer base, and treated as the loyal customers we've been all along? That's the part I don't understand: how ready you are to toss us out of your game when we could be spending more money and paying for PvE development along with our PvP developent. We aren't excluding you!
I don't hate talking about rewards. I just don't know which ones you have in mind. We asked for better PvP rewards for many years back when the PvP community was still vibrant. PvP gear, PvP marks, all sorts of stuff that would have no negative impact on the PvE crowd. As I recall, it was PvEers who objected to that. What we got was a daily dil bump that nobody in PvP needed because, quite frankly, after you learn to PvP, the PvE game gets ridiculously easy.
So, what kind of rewards do you want to talk about? I'm listening.