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Forums > Home› Ten Forward

Why time travel is a really sticky subject and so is Preserving the timeline, (or not preserving it)

gradiigradii Member Posts: 2,824 Arc User
in Ten Forward
Theres really no good answer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQP-OgZU8Kk
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
«13

Comments

  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,963 Arc User
    edited June 2018
    gradii wrote: »
    Theres really no good answer.

    Sure there is. Don't travel back in time in the first place so the question never comes up. And if you do so accidentally, don't make contact with down-timers. At all. Period. Seriously, that's exactly why the Temporal Prime Directive exists in Picard's present.

    See, this is where the timecops in STO's time war are failing at their jobs. They have, by the very act of allowing their actions to become known to down-timers, already altered the past from what they know. Ditto the "Professor" here. If he didn't want the past to be altered he should've kept his damn fool mouth shut and let Picard make the decision he did in the original timeline without interference. Whereas now, Picard knows that people from the Professor's future are d**ks and will likely attempt actions to ensure that future doesn't happen. I sure as hell wouldn't want to live in a future where the "correct" course of history is decided by a committee dedicated solely to the retention of its own power.
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
    — Sabaton, "Great War"
    VZ9ASdg.png

    Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,460 Arc User
    Except that Picard knows also that the "Professor" is in fact a con artist from the past, with a stolen time machine. He wanted to alter the future he was seeing, by taking various 24th-technologies back in time with him and "inventing" them, but he failed, thankfully.

    Other than that, however, your point is valid.
    Lorna-Wing-sig.png
  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,963 Arc User
    edited June 2018
    jonsills wrote: »
    Except that Picard knows also that the "Professor" is in fact a con artist from the past, with a stolen time machine. He wanted to alter the future he was seeing, by taking various 24th-technologies back in time with him and "inventing" them, but he failed, thankfully.

    Other than that, however, your point is valid.

    *shrug* Never seen the episode other than that one clip, I just happen to like Picard's speech there.

    And why is it always "the next Adolf Hitler" that we worry about? Why do they never go, "If I save that kid down there he might grow up to be the next Mahatma Gandhi or Martin Luther King"?
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
    — Sabaton, "Great War"
    VZ9ASdg.png

    Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,556 Arc User
    Time travelers are always more concerned about their history and their existence rather than what is good for humanity and the galaxy. The whole Temporal Prime Directive is self-preservation.

    I suppose it all depends on if a new timeline is created and the original timeline is preserved when a temporal change occurs or if the original timeline is wiped clean and the new timeline replaces it. The Children of Time episode from DS9 has a bunch of the Defiant crew's descendants wiped from existence due to the actions of old Odo trying to save Kira.
  • garaks31garaks31 Member Posts: 2,845 Arc User
    history is written by the victors ...
    tmprl.jpg?width=998&height=499

    https://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1249570/axanar-locks-in-start-date-for-filming
  • UnknownUnknown
    This content has been removed.
  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,556 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    garaks31 wrote: »
    history is written by the victors ...

    no, history is written by the descendents of the survivors (and rewritten as necessary to support whomever happens to be in power at the time.)

    Actually, history is written by the archaeologists that find and translate ancient documents. There is no way to know for sure if certain pieces of history is based on a completely fictional piece of work or not. For all we know, Greek Mythology could be the Ancient Greek's version of Star Trek and not some religion.
  • UnknownUnknown
    This content has been removed.
  • gradiigradii Member Posts: 2,824 Arc User
    starswordc wrote: »
    gradii wrote: »
    Theres really no good answer.

    Sure there is. Don't travel back in time in the first place so the question never comes up. And if you do so accidentally, don't make contact with down-timers. At all. Period. Seriously, that's exactly why the Temporal Prime Directive exists in Picard's present.

    See, this is where the timecops in STO's time war are failing at their jobs. They have, by the very act of allowing their actions to become known to down-timers, already altered the past from what they know. Ditto the "Professor" here. If he didn't want the past to be altered he should've kept his damn fool mouth shut and let Picard make the decision he did in the original timeline without interference. Whereas now, Picard knows that people from the Professor's future are d**ks and will likely attempt actions to ensure that future doesn't happen. I sure as hell wouldn't want to live in a future where the "correct" course of history is decided by a committee dedicated solely to the retention of its own power.

    Well that's basically what i mean. the only good answer to time travel is never ever do it. and make sure nobody else can ever do it. IF ONE PERSON CAN its over. stuff is screwed. Glad time travel is impossible, nobody came to steven hawkings party
    "He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
    Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
    he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
    In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
    He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
    He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
    He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
    He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    gradii wrote: »
    starswordc wrote: »
    gradii wrote: »
    Theres really no good answer.

    Sure there is. Don't travel back in time in the first place so the question never comes up. And if you do so accidentally, don't make contact with down-timers. At all. Period. Seriously, that's exactly why the Temporal Prime Directive exists in Picard's present.

    See, this is where the timecops in STO's time war are failing at their jobs. They have, by the very act of allowing their actions to become known to down-timers, already altered the past from what they know. Ditto the "Professor" here. If he didn't want the past to be altered he should've kept his damn fool mouth shut and let Picard make the decision he did in the original timeline without interference. Whereas now, Picard knows that people from the Professor's future are d**ks and will likely attempt actions to ensure that future doesn't happen. I sure as hell wouldn't want to live in a future where the "correct" course of history is decided by a committee dedicated solely to the retention of its own power.

    Well that's basically what i mean. the only good answer to time travel is never ever do it. and make sure nobody else can ever do it. IF ONE PERSON CAN its over. stuff is screwed. Glad time travel is impossible, nobody came to steven hawkings party

    Unless that is what he told everyone because the time travelers insisted to "preserve the timeline".
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • gradiigradii Member Posts: 2,824 Arc User
    mustrumridcully0 wrote: »
    gradii wrote: »
    starswordc wrote: »
    gradii wrote: »
    Theres really no good answer.

    Sure there is. Don't travel back in time in the first place so the question never comes up. And if you do so accidentally, don't make contact with down-timers. At all. Period. Seriously, that's exactly why the Temporal Prime Directive exists in Picard's present.

    See, this is where the timecops in STO's time war are failing at their jobs. They have, by the very act of allowing their actions to become known to down-timers, already altered the past from what they know. Ditto the "Professor" here. If he didn't want the past to be altered he should've kept his damn fool mouth shut and let Picard make the decision he did in the original timeline without interference. Whereas now, Picard knows that people from the Professor's future are d**ks and will likely attempt actions to ensure that future doesn't happen. I sure as hell wouldn't want to live in a future where the "correct" course of history is decided by a committee dedicated solely to the retention of its own power.

    Well that's basically what i mean. the only good answer to time travel is never ever do it. and make sure nobody else can ever do it. IF ONE PERSON CAN its over. stuff is screwed. Glad time travel is impossible, nobody came to steven hawkings party

    Unless that is what he told everyone because the time travelers insisted to "preserve the timeline".

    If they wanted to preserve the timeline they never would have come, or time travelled anywhere in the first place.
    "He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
    Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
    he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
    In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
    He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
    He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
    He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
    He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    gradii wrote: »
    mustrumridcully0 wrote: »
    gradii wrote: »
    starswordc wrote: »
    gradii wrote: »
    Theres really no good answer.

    Sure there is. Don't travel back in time in the first place so the question never comes up. And if you do so accidentally, don't make contact with down-timers. At all. Period. Seriously, that's exactly why the Temporal Prime Directive exists in Picard's present.

    See, this is where the timecops in STO's time war are failing at their jobs. They have, by the very act of allowing their actions to become known to down-timers, already altered the past from what they know. Ditto the "Professor" here. If he didn't want the past to be altered he should've kept his damn fool mouth shut and let Picard make the decision he did in the original timeline without interference. Whereas now, Picard knows that people from the Professor's future are d**ks and will likely attempt actions to ensure that future doesn't happen. I sure as hell wouldn't want to live in a future where the "correct" course of history is decided by a committee dedicated solely to the retention of its own power.

    Well that's basically what i mean. the only good answer to time travel is never ever do it. and make sure nobody else can ever do it. IF ONE PERSON CAN its over. stuff is screwed. Glad time travel is impossible, nobody came to steven hawkings party

    Unless that is what he told everyone because the time travelers insisted to "preserve the timeline".

    If they wanted to preserve the timeline they never would have come, or time travelled anywhere in the first place.

    Maybe they stopped the one individual that was travelling back to do some timeline alterations?

    Mustrum "Whoa, this a nice rabbit hole, I wonder how deep it goes" Ridcully
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • gradiigradii Member Posts: 2,824 Arc User
    mustrumridcully0 wrote: »
    Mustrum "Whoa, this a nice rabbit hole, I wonder how deep it goes" Ridcully

    I heard if you eat a red mike and ike, you'll find out.

    "He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
    Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
    he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
    In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
    He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
    He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
    He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
    He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    starkaos wrote: »
    Time travelers are always more concerned about their history and their existence rather than what is good for humanity and the galaxy. The whole Temporal Prime Directive is self-preservation.
    In a way yes, but since they're magnanimous they feel that what's good for them is by extension good for others since they're happy to help others.... most of the time.
    I suppose it all depends on if a new timeline is created and the original timeline is preserved when a temporal change occurs or if the original timeline is wiped clean and the new timeline replaces it. The Children of Time episode from DS9 has a bunch of the Defiant crew's descendants wiped from existence due to the actions of old Odo trying to save Kira.
    Terminator solved this by saying yes it does, but the old timeline doesn't stay around indefinitely.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,556 Arc User
    markhawkman wrote: »
    Terminator solved this by saying yes it does, but the old timeline doesn't stay around indefinitely.

    My opinion of Terminator is that it is a temporal loop created by some temporal tourist leaving garbage in the past. Their world is erased from time due to leaving some advanced technology in the past and the advanced technology is used to create Skynet when Skynet didn't exist in the original timeline.
  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,963 Arc User
    starkaos wrote: »
    Time travelers are always more concerned about their history and their existence rather than what is good for humanity and the galaxy. The whole Temporal Prime Directive is self-preservation.

    That may be, but at least it's evenly applied self-preservation. I.e. "All time travel is bad" instead of "only time travel that doesn't benefit me/my chosen polity is bad".
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
    — Sabaton, "Great War"
    VZ9ASdg.png

    Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
  • marty123#3757 marty123
    marty123#3757
         Member Posts: 674 Arc User
    Who’s to say which version of history is the right one?
  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,963 Arc User
    > @marty123#3757 said:
    > Who’s to say which version of history is the right one?

    Logically, it's the unpolluted timeline that necessarily must have existed before people started tampering with it for s**ts and giggles.
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
    — Sabaton, "Great War"
    VZ9ASdg.png

    Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    but we can't go back because we don't even know what that looks like. :p
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • marty123#3757 marty123
    marty123#3757
         Member Posts: 674 Arc User
    edited June 2018
    > @starswordc said:
    > > @marty123#3757 said:
    > > Who’s to say which version of history is the right one?
    >
    > Logically, it's the unpolluted timeline that necessarily must have existed before people started tampering with it for s**ts and giggles.

    But would you be saying that if it was discovered that in the “original” timeline Axis won WWII?
    Post edited by marty123#3757 on
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    I've personally come to suspect that the original "uncorrupted" timeline didn't have Humans in it. :p
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • theraven2378theraven2378 Member Posts: 6,015 Arc User
    Time if harnessed can be an effective weapon, the Krenim knew that but they kept polluting the timeline with each incursion.
    Imagine if you erased someone like let's say Stalin or Hitler, you'd remove great evil from the world and timeline. It would however have unforeseen consequences.
    NMXb2ph.png
      "The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
      -Lord Commander Solar Macharius
    • marty123#3757 marty123
      marty123#3757
             Member Posts: 674 Arc User
      > @mustrumridcully0 said:
      > gradii wrote: »
      >
      > starswordc wrote: »
      >
      > gradii wrote: »
      >
      > Theres really no good answer.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Sure there is. Don't travel back in time in the first place so the question never comes up. And if you do so accidentally, don't make contact with down-timers. At all. Period. Seriously, that's exactly why the Temporal Prime Directive exists in Picard's present.
      >
      > See, this is where the timecops in STO's time war are failing at their jobs. They have, by the very act of allowing their actions to become known to down-timers, already altered the past from what they know. Ditto the "Professor" here. If he didn't want the past to be altered he should've kept his damn fool mouth shut and let Picard make the decision he did in the original timeline without interference. Whereas now, Picard knows that people from the Professor's future are d**ks and will likely attempt actions to ensure that future doesn't happen. I sure as hell wouldn't want to live in a future where the "correct" course of history is decided by a committee dedicated solely to the retention of its own power.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Well that's basically what i mean. the only good answer to time travel is never ever do it. and make sure nobody else can ever do it. IF ONE PERSON CAN its over. stuff is screwed. Glad time travel is impossible, nobody came to steven hawkings party
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Unless that is what he told everyone because the time travelers insisted to "preserve the timeline".

      Or they never showed up to preserve the timeline
    • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan
      legendarylycan#5411
             Member Posts: 37,283 Arc User
      edited June 2018
      theraven2378 wrote: »
      Time if harnessed can be an effective weapon, the Krenim knew that but they kept polluting the timeline with each incursion.
      Imagine if you erased someone like let's say Stalin or Hitler, you'd remove great evil from the world and timeline. It would however have unforeseen consequences.

      Einstein found that out when he removed the latter...*cough*red alert*cough*

      and then when he himself was removed by cherdenko and the world lost nuclear weapons...of course, i don't call that a 'consequence' - more like a damn good thing, even though it really shouldn't have happened since he wasn't even the one who created nuclear weapons in the original red alert timeline; some russian scientist did

      and another flaw with his removal - it should've brought hitler back, yet it didn't for some reason​​
      Like special weapons from other Star Trek games? Wondering if they can be replicated in STO even a little bit? Check this out: https://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1262277/a-mostly-comprehensive-guide-to-star-trek-videogame-special-weapons-and-their-sto-equivalents

      #LegalizeAwoo

      A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
      An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
      A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
      A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"

      "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
      "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
      Passion and Serenity are one.
      I gain power by understanding both.
      In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
      I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
      The Force is united within me.
    • theraven2378theraven2378 Member Posts: 6,015 Arc User
      shadowfang240 wrote: »
      theraven2378 wrote: »
      Time if harnessed can be an effective weapon, the Krenim knew that but they kept polluting the timeline with each incursion.
      Imagine if you erased someone like let's say Stalin or Hitler, you'd remove great evil from the world and timeline. It would however have unforeseen consequences.

      Einstein found that out when he removed the latter...*cough*red alert*cough*

      and then when he himself was removed by cherdenko and the world lost nuclear weapons...of course, i don't call that a 'consequence' - more like a damn good thing, even though it really shouldn't have happened since he wasn't even the one who created nuclear weapons in the original red alert timeline; some russian scientist did

      and another flaw with his removal - it should've brought hitler back, yet it didn't for some reason​​

      It brought a advanced Tech Japanese Empire into the world that should not have existed.
      NMXb2ph.png
        "The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
        -Lord Commander Solar Macharius
      • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan
        legendarylycan#5411
                 Member Posts: 37,283 Arc User
        i wouldn't say that...we have an advanced tech japan right now - they just aren't warlike​​
        Like special weapons from other Star Trek games? Wondering if they can be replicated in STO even a little bit? Check this out: https://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1262277/a-mostly-comprehensive-guide-to-star-trek-videogame-special-weapons-and-their-sto-equivalents

        #LegalizeAwoo

        A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
        An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
        A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
        A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"

        "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
        "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
        Passion and Serenity are one.
        I gain power by understanding both.
        In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
        I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
        The Force is united within me.
      • theraven2378theraven2378 Member Posts: 6,015 Arc User
        Japan these days does not have giant samurai walkers which stomp things, the Japanese Empire in Red Alert 3 were a temporal abomination due to Soviet interference
        NMXb2ph.png
          "The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
          -Lord Commander Solar Macharius
        • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan
          legendarylycan#5411
                     Member Posts: 37,283 Arc User
          ...give them time​​
          Like special weapons from other Star Trek games? Wondering if they can be replicated in STO even a little bit? Check this out: https://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1262277/a-mostly-comprehensive-guide-to-star-trek-videogame-special-weapons-and-their-sto-equivalents

          #LegalizeAwoo

          A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
          An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
          A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
          A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"

          "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
          "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
          Passion and Serenity are one.
          I gain power by understanding both.
          In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
          I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
          The Force is united within me.
        • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
          the real life modern Japanese constitution forbids the development of an offensive fighting force.
          -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
          My character Tsin'xing
          Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
        • theraven2378theraven2378 Member Posts: 6,015 Arc User
          Strictly self defense, the RA3 Japanese were like WW2 Imperial Japan but with lots of advanced tech.
          NMXb2ph.png
            "The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
            -Lord Commander Solar Macharius
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