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PVP-Just hear me out here..This aint a poll or TRIBBLE like that..

13

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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    tfomega wrote: »
    Agreed, the entry level for PvP is too high now unless you spend money on the game, which I am sure Cryptic wants, but most people won't do it..
    So what do you think the minimum to be able to be competitive in PvP is? Level 60 character with Mk14 gear is obvious. Two spec trees? sure. the rest of it though? That's mostly a matter of your build. Crit stacking FaW? Mega-Grav Well? those use different gear.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • salvation4salvation4 Member Posts: 1,167 Arc User
    Further, unless Cryptic could somehow put a fixed PVP system in a lockbox, I don't see it soaking up too many development hours.

    To pay for it maybe they could give F2Pers 1 free PvP match every couple hours, and charge Zen for additional runs within that timeframe?

    Note that I'm anti-PvP in regards to every MMO I've ever played, this is just a potential solution I thought of after reading this.

    THIS SOUNDS SO MUCH LIKE SWTORS MONEY GRAB POLICY..
    Adrian-Uss Sovereign NCC-73811 (LVL 65 FED ENG) UR/E MKXV Fleet Intel Assault Cruiser (April 2012) (Main)
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    Jean-Uss Seratoga Ravenna (LVL 60 FED Delta ENG) UC/R MKVI Bajoran Escort (April 2018)
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  • tfomegatfomega Member Posts: 812 Arc User
    tfomega wrote: »
    Agreed, the entry level for PvP is too high now unless you spend money on the game, which I am sure Cryptic wants, but most people won't do it..
    So what do you think the minimum to be able to be competitive in PvP is? Level 60 character with Mk14 gear is obvious. Two spec trees? sure. the rest of it though? That's mostly a matter of your build. Crit stacking FaW? Mega-Grav Well? those use different gear.

    As a tac.. minimum is level 60, 3 skill trees (pilot, MW, intel where MW is primary, and swap between intel and pilot), all rep trees (nukari, competitive, dyson) basically all the ones that offer space ability at tier5, so about 5 of them? I use all of them pretty much.. forced challenge, quantum singularity manipulation, etc.. yes.. mk iv epic all consoles is recommended, though ultra rare isn't too much of a reduction.

    The real problem? the zen ships, zen ship consoles, and zen ship traits.. not including any of the infinity, phoenix, or promotion ships that you have to spend zen/dilithium on. Too many consoles, traits, and ships that are needed for all of that. Hence, the difference between f2p which will take years to obtain everything they need versus a spender.

    That's just my quick 30 second view on minimum requirements for PvP


    I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
    MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
  • protoneousprotoneous Member Posts: 2,630 Arc User
    tfomega wrote: »
    tfomega wrote: »
    Agreed, the entry level for PvP is too high now unless you spend money on the game, which I am sure Cryptic wants, but most people won't do it..
    So what do you think the minimum to be able to be competitive in PvP is? Level 60 character with Mk14 gear is obvious. Two spec trees? sure. the rest of it though? That's mostly a matter of your build. Crit stacking FaW? Mega-Grav Well? those use different gear.

    As a tac.. minimum is level 60, 3 skill trees (pilot, MW, intel where MW is primary, and swap between intel and pilot), all rep trees (nukari, competitive, dyson) basically all the ones that offer space ability at tier5, so about 5 of them? I use all of them pretty much.. forced challenge, quantum singularity manipulation, etc.. yes.. mk iv epic all consoles is recommended, though ultra rare isn't too much of a reduction.

    The real problem? the zen ships, zen ship consoles, and zen ship traits.. not including any of the infinity, phoenix, or promotion ships that you have to spend zen/dilithium on. Too many consoles, traits, and ships that are needed for all of that. Hence, the difference between f2p which will take years to obtain everything they need versus a spender.

    That's just my quick 30 second view on minimum requirements for PvP

    Doesn't seem too much different from minimum requirements for DpS
  • tfomegatfomega Member Posts: 812 Arc User
    edited March 2018
    protoneous wrote: »

    Doesn't seem too much different from minimum requirements for DpS

    except those most of those high DPSers I see in ISA and other STFs die very easily. They try to get their 200-300K DPS so that they can upload to the league to get a new high score, but usually die within a few shots from the gateway. High DPS is half the battle.

    Most of the high DPSers that come into ker'rat can do impressive damage, and sometimes they may be able to take down their opponent when he/she is not paying attention by concentrating on another target, but if the high DPSer gets their attention, the DPSer is doomed.


    I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
    MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
  • protoneousprotoneous Member Posts: 2,630 Arc User
    tfomega wrote: »
    protoneous wrote: »

    Doesn't seem too much different from minimum requirements for DpS

    except those most of those high DPSers I see in ISA and other STFs die very easily. They try to get their 200-300K DPS so that they can upload to the league to get a new high score, but usually die within a few shots from the gateway. High DPS is half the battle.

    Most of the high DPSers that come into ker'rat can do impressive damage, and sometimes they may be able to take down their opponent when he/she is not paying attention by concentrating on another target, but if the high DPSer gets their attention, the DPSer is doomed.
    Was referring to minimum requirements being the same as listed by the person I quoted (P2W to an extent). Not surprised they die easily given they're spec'd, set up, and practice for something completely different.

  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    salvation4 wrote: »
    My opinion..

    IF YOU WANT TO IMPROVE IT THEN,
    DISABLE ALL SPECIAL CONSOLES & SET BONUS EQUIPMENRT AT ANY TIER, DEVICES & SPECIAL WEAPONS leaving only BoFF, DoFF abilities, spec trees and traits intact, only stuff available from fleet holdings and mission drops,
    ...
    Too convoluted already.
    Especially since better results could be gotten by making just PvP only items to use in PvP with less likely chance of things blowing up badly and having things like all our consoles get disabled in PvE queues. But for some god damn reason, the PvP player must somehow keep all their shinies and things like a balanced PvP match be damned.
    Even worse. The basic concept of PvP only gear means that it's a game mode so fundamentally different that the average player would have to relearn the game to play it. Then there's the issue of the massive dev resources required to CREATE all that gear in the first place. Not gonna happen.
    No...if you have basic PvP gear that works in the same way as normal gear with less...and i mean WAY less power creep, you do not have to relearn the game. Unless by relearn the game, you mean grow some god damned skill instead of hitting space bar and vaping things in 5 seconds while zipping around at 200% the speed of full impulse. Yeah ship building is a skill too...not doubting that...but PvP should be more about skill and less about what ship meta you are running. As for massive work needed...once again no. You can copy over common mark 10 weapons and normal loot drop consoles and bam, you have the PvP gear list right there. Copy over vendor only boff powers...and bamn there is your PvP boff powers. Limit personal traits to what you start off with or remove them...maybe allow for the rep traits...or not...and have a limited number of starship traits or remove those too. Disable doffs and you have an easy peasy balanced...or close enough to PvP system.
    How is that an improvement? It makes builds simpler by restricting options, but fundamentally more well balanced and fun? um... I don't see it. Sure it'd redefine the meta-game, but how long would it take for the meta-game to become stale and stagnant? I give it a week before people start complaining about how X build is best and you either use it or lose. It sounds like what you REALLY want is for a simpler meta-game. Your suggestions are the sort of thing no MMO developer would ever use because they're fundamentally incompatible with MMO design. Why make new stuff if you're just going to disable it?
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    You don't see it because you WANT the complex, must buy all these power to curb stomp the noobs. And my suggestion isn't there to make money for cryptic at this point...it's a suggestion for them to do something is they want PvP to be something viable to do in this game again. Which they don't...so don't worry, there is no chance they will change things from the mess it is now...so your curb stomp the noob powers are safe.
    Haha.... What powers do you imagine to equate to "curbstomp the noobs"? As-is, there are at least in theory counters to every individual ability, but strategies are not all created equal.
    If I were them and I wanted to change PvP to be viable AND make money, I would make PvP only ships you HAD to buy to PvP.
    that'd basically amount to sealing PvP in a coffin and throwing it in the Mariana Trench. No noob would even touch it accidentally.
    But then again, you PvP player would hate that even more.
    Haha, I've never been a serious PvPer in STO. Mainly because there's no point. Part of why I made the comparison to Avengers Alliance is because in AA I actually had a motive to PvP. It gave the equivalent of the bits of gear you get from these 3 week events we have in STO. There's no point to it in STO, so I don't bother.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • where2r1where2r1 Member Posts: 6,054 Arc User
    edited March 2018
    tfomega wrote: »
    Agreed, the entry level for PvP is too high now unless you spend money on the game, which I am sure Cryptic wants, but most people won't do it..
    So what do you think the minimum to be able to be competitive in PvP is? Level 60 character with Mk14 gear is obvious. Two spec trees? sure. the rest of it though? That's mostly a matter of your build. Crit stacking FaW? Mega-Grav Well? those use different gear.

    So, what would you use on your defensive side?

    All your immunities? You sure you don't want to slot that DPRM console or Invincible?
    Pay up for it, dude.

    No one wants PvP without all the bells and whistles.
    They should at least fix the darn scoreboard for them.
    "Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK

    “Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    where2r1 wrote: »
    tfomega wrote: »
    Agreed, the entry level for PvP is too high now unless you spend money on the game, which I am sure Cryptic wants, but most people won't do it..
    So what do you think the minimum to be able to be competitive in PvP is? Level 60 character with Mk14 gear is obvious. Two spec trees? sure. the rest of it though? That's mostly a matter of your build. Crit stacking FaW? Mega-Grav Well? those use different gear.
    So, what would you use on your defensive side?

    All your immunities? You sure you don't want to slot that DPRM console or Invincible?
    Pay up for it, dude.

    No one wants PvP without all the bells and whistles.
    They should at least fix the darn scoreboard for them.
    Do you think those are mandatory for competing in PvP?
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • where2r1where2r1 Member Posts: 6,054 Arc User
    edited March 2018
    Do you think those are mandatory for competing in PvP?

    YUP...unless you are just beating on your Fleeties.

    "Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK

    “Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    where2r1 wrote: »
    Do you think those are mandatory for competing in PvP?
    YUP...unless you are just beating on your Fleeties.
    So, why do you consider them to be mandatory?
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • protoneousprotoneous Member Posts: 2,630 Arc User
    where2r1 wrote: »
    Do you think those are mandatory for competing in PvP?

    YUP...unless you are just beating on your Fleeties.
    Ouch. Wonder what the current total price is for a fed to get an Atlas Prototype Dreadnought Cruiser and Zahl Heavy Cruiser. Indeed a P2W component. Let's add a Vaadwaur Astika Heavy Battlecruiser for when you want to DpS vs PvP. Throw in 2 different sets of guilded weapons as well?
  • gaevsmangaevsman Member Posts: 3,187 Arc User
    I never liked PvPers... and I never will... I will never forgive them... for the death of my boy...
    The forces of darkness are upon us!
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 56,312 Community Moderator
    ROFLMAO
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • darkbladejkdarkbladejk Member Posts: 3,397 Community Moderator
    Guys let's keep things civil and related to the original post. This is the heads up warning. The next time I break out the moderator pen.
    "Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations

    Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
  • protoneousprotoneous Member Posts: 2,630 Arc User
    azrael605 wrote: »
    > @protoneous said:
    > where2r1 wrote: »
    >
    > markhawkman wrote: »
    >
    > Do you think those are mandatory for competing in PvP?
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > YUP...unless you are just beating on your Fleeties.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Ouch. Wonder what the current total price is for a fed to get an Atlas Prototype Dreadnought Cruiser and Zahl Heavy Cruiser. Indeed a P2W component. Let's add a Vaadwaur Astika Heavy Battlecruiser for when you want to DpS vs PvP. Throw in 2 different sets of guilded weapons as well?

    Total price in real world money for me to get all 3 of those ships? 0 dollars. Total price for me to get 1 of every lockbox ship ever made? 0 dollars. Knowing I can do this each & every time while others whine about them? Priceless.

    It's not exactly clear to me whether the OP wants to have ship traits left in or not. It would avoid the costs to participate at a higher level but wait...

    All the ships mentioned in my previous post can apparently be gotten for free so this may not matter.

    Perhaps you could share your secret with the rest of us @azrael605 ? Getting one of every lockbox ship ever made for 0 dollars "each and every time" is truly impressive, to say the least, and is indeed priceless (pardon the pun) :smile:

  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 56,312 Community Moderator
    I'm pretty sure the answer involves a healthy supply of Energy Credits.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • nixie50nixie50 Member Posts: 1,096 Arc User
    it is laughable to say PVP is the cash cow and without it STO is dead. the RP crowd is bigger than the PVP crowd, the Space barbie crowd bigger than RP and the casual player segment the biggest yet, EASILY 75% of the users.
    u7acy6aymfw7.gif
    We Need BERETS in the tailor
  • protoneousprotoneous Member Posts: 2,630 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    I'm pretty sure the answer involves a healthy supply of Energy Credits.
    I'm pretty sure the answer is "in theory" only.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 56,312 Community Moderator
    nixie50 wrote: »
    it is laughable to say PVP is the cash cow and without it STO is dead. the RP crowd is bigger than the PVP crowd, the Space barbie crowd bigger than RP and the casual player segment the biggest yet, EASILY 75% of the users.

    I guess I'm a mutant then. I'm BOTH Space Barbie and Casual!

    Me in PvE:
    maxresdefault.jpg

    Me after a PvP (Or Korfez):
    latest?cb=20151101183339

    I can hold my own. But when it comes to other players... unless they're in the same bracket as me... well... *points up at second picture*

    Its pretty much true of any MMO with PvP. You're going to have people who are great at PvE, but get vaped in PvP because of a difference in experience level and gear. A good example is from my old Draenei Paladin in WoW years ago. She was able to hold her own questing, but... oneshot by Death Knights in a PvP area. Hell... I got the Scorpion treatment from two in a row before I could even react! Boom, Boom, Dead.

    Forcing it on anyone is a bad idea.
    And as nixie said... the majority of players are NOT PvP.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • foxman00foxman00 Member Posts: 1,352 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    nixie50 wrote: »
    it is laughable to say PVP is the cash cow and without it STO is dead. the RP crowd is bigger than the PVP crowd, the Space barbie crowd bigger than RP and the casual player segment the biggest yet, EASILY 75% of the users.

    I guess I'm a mutant then. I'm BOTH Space Barbie and Casual!

    Me in PvE:
    maxresdefault.jpg

    Me after a PvP (Or Korfez):
    latest?cb=20151101183339

    I can hold my own. But when it comes to other players... unless they're in the same bracket as me... well... *points up at second picture*

    Its pretty much true of any MMO with PvP. You're going to have people who are great at PvE, but get vaped in PvP because of a difference in experience level and gear. A good example is from my old Draenei Paladin in WoW years ago. She was able to hold her own questing, but... oneshot by Death Knights in a PvP area. Hell... I got the Scorpion treatment from two in a row before I could even react! Boom, Boom, Dead.

    Forcing it on anyone is a bad idea.
    And as nixie said... the majority of players are NOT PvP.

    I am the same Rattler, I am a retired hybrid PvE & PvP player myself. I remember the days where i came out looking like your second picture, lol :).

    Reasons i stopped PvPing? well, its multiple reasons

    1) Cryptic have made several mistakes, notably with releasing some gear and traits that never have should have seen the light of day. Also, there continued release of Shield & armour bypassing abilities and weapons, along with insane engine speed capability now, just makes it ricdalous.

    Also, I know you need to increase weapon, console, traits or "power creep" to keep this game running financially. But please maybe reign it in a bit. I know that is extremely difficult, and of course, easier said than done. But maybe, try not to be too gun-ho :)

    2) PvP Community - The PvP community has to take almost equal blame for the current state as well. A lot of times, abilities would be bugged, and cryptic would alot of times take a bit longer than usual to fix them. However, increasing larger parts of the PvP community would realize the bugged nature, and exploit it without limit. Sadly, this became the "norm" and fewer people would take a stand and go "I am not using this" instead, they would go "Cryptic did it, so i can use it always without taking any of the blame" without caring what it was doing to the shinking community, or people who tried to get in.

    Also, the PvP community, has become extremely closed off. In days of old, us in PvP would share our builds, our weapons, even with non PvPers are tell them how we built our ships, some of our tactics, as well as the times we got our arses kicked :) This would allow others to try and build ships to beat us, in turn, we would learn new things, then attempt a counter counter build. Of course there was good natured trash talking (ahhh, Ker'rat of old) but we always wanted a fight we would enjoy, or someone to surprise us with a build no one saw coming.

    This tied into (i still hope it exists) the Cracked Planet Ker'rat honour code. Two players would face each other, and duel it out. While a majority of players in ker'rat would sit at 25km range, and watch the duel, and comment about their respective builds (also allowed us to ruthlessly destroy anyone who tried to interrupt :) )

    Sadly, now these days, the majority of the community is extremely stand-off like. Even when they post videos, they hide their buffs, or blank out their chat windows, or anything to maybe allow someone to analyse and see how they might do something. This would allow people to become curious, and maybe go "yeah, its alot of work, but i want to see if i can do the same thing". When people try to ask them about their builds, or point out they have hidden everything, they get extremely nasty and aggressive.

    It is my opinion, if you PvP, you should disclose everything. Honesty, whats there to hide. You lead by example, if you are closed off, unwilling to negotiate and come off as aggressive, you are not going to get a warm reception.

    All sides (cryptic, PvE and PvP players are at fault here, lets not tip toe around it) However, we can move forward.

    But it is going to take some sacrifice. PvEers, please try to stop being so aggressive and blaming every nerf on PvPers. Some of the nerfs have come when PvEers look at a ability or trait, and know straight away the thing is silly or OP. I know, because i have seen some discussions on reddit/sto and the build crew when something comes out. Point of order, the honoured dead trait.

    Cryptic, i know you financially need for a new area to work. But if possible, please try to look into a "vanilla" PvP that is tied into the game, co-existing. No traits, no sets, PvP of old like just after F2P launched. I think one of your devs said they would like PvP fights to occur over minutes, and not seconds (but still keeping vape capability, but making it a lot harder).

    PvPers, guys, seriously, you need to wake up to exactly how you are coming across. This "close everything off, and blame cryptic for everything" is doing you no flavors. You need to open up and be more community forward. Because at this stage, you are your own worse enemy.

    I said before it was an "all-sides" issue. Thinking about it i am wrong.

    It is a "one side" issue - All of us Devs, PvEers & PvPers, "Star Trek Captains". When we walk onto that bridge, point our finger and say "engage" we are entering into a universe we love, enjoy, and have found memories of over many decades. Lets stop with this stupid neutral zone TRIBBLE between us, and lets work together.

    Apologises about the long post.

    kXx65VK.jpg
  • ssbn655ssbn655 Member Posts: 1,894 Arc User
    Sigh there have been many sound fixes suggestted to PVP which would turn it into a balanced competition where pilot skill not gear deterimined the win. All of them have fallen on deaf ears. It is well past the time PVP's corpse was cut loose from the game it was killed by pvp player faction's very own hand.
  • protoneousprotoneous Member Posts: 2,630 Arc User
    edited March 2018
    azrael605 wrote: »
    > @protoneous said:
    > azrael605 wrote: »
    >
    > > @protoneous said:
    > > where2r1 wrote: »
    > >
    > > markhawkman wrote: »
    > >
    > > Do you think those are mandatory for competing in PvP?
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > YUP...unless you are just beating on your Fleeties.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > Ouch. Wonder what the current total price is for a fed to get an Atlas Prototype Dreadnought Cruiser and Zahl Heavy Cruiser. Indeed a P2W component. Let's add a Vaadwaur Astika Heavy Battlecruiser for when you want to DpS vs PvP. Throw in 2 different sets of guilded weapons as well?
    >
    > Total price in real world money for me to get all 3 of those ships? 0 dollars. Total price for me to get 1 of every lockbox ship ever made? 0 dollars. Knowing I can do this each & every time while others whine about them? Priceless.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > It's not exactly clear to me whether the OP wants to have ship traits left in or not. It would avoid the costs to participate at a higher level but wait...
    >
    > All the ships mentioned in my previous post can apparently be gotten for free so this may not matter.
    >
    > Perhaps you could share your secret with the rest of us @azrael605 ? Getting one of every lockbox ship ever made for 0 dollars "each and every time" is truly impressive, to say the least, and is indeed priceless (pardon the pun) :smile:

    Dill = Zen = Keys = EC = no real money spent (by me anyway). Always works, and I'm sure the people selling the ships appreciate the EC. Thats just one method to that end, and the easiest, but there are many. Works better with a good stable of characters (ie 8k Dill daily refined times 10 toons equals 80k refined per day) I currently have 16 characters, and while I cannot always get 8k from all of them each day (RL you know) in 3 weeks I pulled over a million Dill to exchange for zen. Loving my Walker & Sarcophagus (ok I hate the raider pets, gonna get some Rom Rep elite Scorps), and I'll have my Crossfield soon.

    That is a fair number of toons and it sounds like you're making things work for you. Well done (those are some nice ships).

This discussion has been closed.