starswordc
Yeah, I have to say, when I heard the line in "Midnight", in my head I heard Tuvok going, "A poem about a wasteful and unsuccessful frontal attack against the wrong target using the wrong type of troops, resulting from unclear orders given by incompetent leaders."
exactly ,because simple re typing the word of the past like following then blindly we reach the same result. if we do not understand the meaning we simply repeat the same mistakes. a good effort and nice article up to that point and like "midnight" apparently still missing the point.
That was the point. Shon, and the others knew they were "foolishly" charging to their deaths. They didnt know at the time "your" captain was going to save the day, they believed that it was the end. In all honesty it made perfect sense to make that quote.
The only poem that might have fit as well was, "Rendezvous with Death", by Alan Seeger...
"But I’ve a rendezvous with Death
At midnight in some flaming town,
When Spring trips north again this year,
And I to my pledged word am true,
I shall not fail that rendezvous."
Both show knowledge of death, but the Light Brigade is a groups death, and not just your own...or even you and your crews...it references the starship as the steed, and all those ships and crews charging right at the guns of an enemy they have no hope of beating. Foolishly, Stupidly, even Suicidally...but obeying their oaths...
I think you and @somtaawkhar need a refresher course on the actual sortie at the Battle of Balaclava that inspired the poem. It was equally inappropriate for "Sacrifice of Angels"* and speaks more to the incompetence of the British Army's "old boys' club" through approximately World War I than to any particular heroism deserving of immortalization by Tennyson.
The guy in charge of the front, a fellow named Lord FitzRoy Somerset, 1st Baron Raglan, is too old for the post, and it's showing from day one as their logistics are completely FUBAR. The British Army nearly starved to death that war because nothing but salt meat was delivered to the trenches (a foodstuff that will last for decades and has almost no nutritional value whatsoever), yet there was months of vegetables, rice, and grain stocked up at the port of Sevastopol and their own allies the French had built their own bakeries behind the lines to feed their own forces. They weren't even properly delivering winter coats, which for some reason is typical of Germanic peoples who invade Russia (Hitler was about the fifth guy to fall to General Winter in four centuries, you'd think somebody would've noticed that Russia has basically one play by then).
In addition, Raglan is dealing with an inter-unit rivalry between two of the other upper-class twits who ran the Army:
George Charles Bingham, 3rd Earl Lucan. He's overall commander of British cavalry and the very model of a modern major general if you'll pardon the Gilbert and Sullivan reference: a fine peacetime commander who outfitted his Heavy Brigade troops himself to the tune of 11,000 pounds sterling a year, spending more on uniforms than most of his men were actually paid if you can believe it. Has an opportunity on day one to pursue and chop up a Russian army retreating in disarray, and completely ignores it.
James Brudenell, 7th Earl Cardigan, and Lucan's brother-in-law, and neither of them can stand the other. He's commander of the Light Brigade, and seems to think cavalry combat little different than fox-hunting. Raglan doesn't have the will to deal decisively with this, instead trying to keep them apart. Cardigan being Lucan's direct subordinate, you can imagine how good that was for the chain of command.
To sum it up, the Light Brigade suffered 27% casualties, attacking the wrong target, at the will of a bunch of inbred aristocrats who couldn't find their own butt cheeks if they'd had the Enterprise-F's main sensor array handy. Just like the Alliance was sold up the river by Captain Kagran of the House of Whatever back in "Broken Circle" so he could babble about honor and songs and ballads and all kinds of targ dung the dead don't give half a hump about, instead of him being focused on winning the war. So yeah, quoting "The Charge of the Light Brigade" is appropriate, just not in the way the writers of that mission intended. We the player characters are the best of the best, and we were commanded to throw the whole damn war away by a Klingon who managed to be both Lord Raglan and Captain Nolan at the same time.
* BTW, that episode actually used the "quoting stuff for drama" trope correctly: it's the humans quoting it and the aliens don't have a damn clue what they're talking about other than that it's hardly helpful to their mood.
But, the quote Shon made had nothing to do with the actual charge, but everything to do with Tennyson's poem. In the poem it was a futile and stupid effort...but it was done gallantly.
This is the point. To die Valiantly, Gallantly....in an effort so in vain that it wouldnt even classify as stupid. Many charges that become synonymous with Heroic death were at the heart blunders...or a what the hell moment. Picketts, the Light Brigade, Bayonet Charge at Camaron, Shiroyama...one could even classify the French Paratroopers jumping into Dien Bien Phu the same A quote from any of these would be appropriate...but none hold both the poignancy and are as well known as this poem.
So again, its entirely appropriate to quote...it fits the mood, and the actions undertaken...
I suppose they could have invented some Andorian quote that had a similar feel and meaning...but why bother whe this quote would do so nicely
The 1701-A being re-christened Enterprise from Yorktown technically isn't canon. It stems from a comment Gene Roddenberry made in passing shortly after Star Trek IV came out. They've never stated whether or not the A was a new build or a re-christening.
Its popular and has been used in a few soft canon sources so... its generally accepted by now that Enterprise-A was formerly the Yorktown.
The 1701-A being re-christened Enterprise from Yorktown technically isn't canon. It stems from a comment Gene Roddenberry made in passing shortly after Star Trek IV came out. They've never stated whether or not the A was a new build or a re-christening.
Its popular and has been used in a few soft canon sources so... its generally accepted by now that Enterprise-A was formerly the Yorktown.
Scotty doesn't agree. Here's what he said at the start or Star Trek V: "U.S.S. Enterprise. Shakedown cruise report. I think this new ship was put together by monkeys. Oh she's got a fine engine, but half the doors won't open". It's a "new" ship, with typical problems for a ship fresh from a builder's yard. There's no mention of problems stemming from being an old ship, or from being a repaired ship. Just from being a "new" ship.
Besides that, why would anyone want to rename the Yorktown? That ship's crew just died in service of the Federation. Renaming their ship would be an insult, a way of saying their memory didn't matter. It's common enough to rename an under-construction or brand new ship for a recently lost vessel. Aside from a multitude of historical examples, DS 9 showed the new Sao Paulo being renamed Defiant. But it doesn't happen for older ships.
I know this isn't going to change anyone's mind. For some reason, people have an emotional attachment to the idea that Yorktown was renamed Enterprise. I've never understood that.
tHat doesn't mean that STO has to repeat the same mistakes. The Trek property can grow just like any other property. This is demonstrated by instances of actually growing. "But X was always like that" isn't a good excuse.
Can you demonstrate this claim? It doesn't seem plausible, at least not for good reasons.
Yes, but if you don't know their cultures, you'll miss the meaning of some things they're saying like quotes and idioms.
"Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra" -> It took a good chunk of an episode to understand this meaning. And it was great because it was the point of the episode: understanding the Tamarians. But when it's not the main point, it becomes annoying very fast because either you don't get the point or other characters waste time to explain.
Can you demonstrate this claim? It doesn't seem plausible, at least not for good reasons.
The Star Wars Holiday Special. No subtitles for the Wookies is very immersive. It's also pointless since they do human actions in a human house with human tools, so body language was enough. It also makes your ears bleed and gives you murderous urges.
The way too many unnecessary QTE in the game Heavy Rain. Immersive, yes, but it's still padding of the worst kind.
The inventory system of the recent Alone in the Dark. Immersive, yes. Realistic, yes. Totally impractical? Heck yes!
Shon may be an andorian but he's starfleet officer with (presumebly) decades of experience so there's more then enough time for him having learned the poem and its meaning.
The bridge crew of the Enterprice (NCC-1701-F) seems to be predominantly human so that also means it makes sense for Shon to use a human poem rather then an andorian one, for the benefit of his crew.
And that's assuming Shon wasn't raised on Earth and thus be more familiar with earth culture(s) then andorian one(s), after all culture isn't genetic it's learned and that's why Worf has idealized picture of the klingon culture he was raised on earth and didn't have any contact with living klingon culture just the information his foster parents had.
A foolish charge at the front gates deserves no praise or recognition for there is none in either. when there is nothing to be gained charging at the front gates then what is accomplished and how is it worthy of praise? especially after losing 20% of the men on the initial charge.
i don't understand these poems because they are about something that is greatly exaggerated. If Shon charged at the Iconians with the one or two ships left, it wouldn't help anything getting himself killed especially if the reason is pointless for the charge in the first place, it would simply be an empty pointless death which didn't help anyone or himself. He would of been better off trying to defend his comrades elsewhere in the battle and died valiantly doing this.
Both show knowledge of death, but the Light Brigade is a groups death, and not just your own...or even you and your crews...it references the starship as the steed, and all those ships and crews charging right at the guns of an enemy they have no hope of beating. Foolishly, Stupidly, even Suicidally...but obeying their oaths...
Oath? An oath is a statement that you promise to do something and carry it through no matter what. in this case to uphold the values and standards of Starfleet and to protect Starfleet, Suicide would invalidate that oath since Shon didn't follow through the oath to its end. This would be considered an act of Perjury, a dishonorable act of willfully not carrying through with the oath and the consequences for this would be severe even if he survived. One can't obey an oath if it can't be completed, not even in death: killed by someone else, it still would of been a dishonorable death.
So yes stupid is just stupid in this case, there is nothing honorable charging into the jaws of death with no hope of survival.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Shon's charge was not pointless. He was buying the player time to get through the portal and, so it was assumed, reverse the whole war by preventing the Iconians from surviving their homeworld's bombardment in the past.
Where do people get the idea from that it was a pointless charge, with only certain death and no gains to be had?
But, the quote Shon made had nothing to do with the actual charge, but everything to do with Tennyson's poem. In the poem it was a futile and stupid effort...but it was done gallantly.
This is the point. To die Valiantly, Gallantly....in an effort so in vain that it wouldnt even classify as stupid. Many charges that become synonymous with Heroic death were at the heart blunders...or a what the hell moment. Picketts, the Light Brigade, Bayonet Charge at Camaron, Shiroyama...one could even classify the French Paratroopers jumping into Dien Bien Phu the same A quote from any of these would be appropriate...but none hold both the poignancy and are as well known as this poem.
So again, its entirely appropriate to quote...it fits the mood, and the actions undertaken...
I suppose they could have invented some Andorian quote that had a similar feel and meaning...but why bother whe this quote would do so nicely
Maybe it's just me, but I happen to be of the opinion that if you're going to be referencing history in fiction, you ought to actually research that history and think a little harder about the implications. Shon being an Andorian, I can believe him having encountered the poem in a literature elective at the Academy and not understanding the context, but it casts the events in a very different light if you know the history. So let's go through them.
Pickett's Charge? Pure unadulterated tactical incompetence, compounded by the supposed heroism being for a cause completely undeserving of it: defense of the right to own slaves. All part of the "Lost Cause" mythos that the South came up with in the following decades to justify state-sponsored white supremacism: the popular histories of Gettysburg often leave out fun little details like Lee's troops kidnapping free blacks from northern towns and selling them into slavery as war booty. (Bear in mind, I've lived in the South since I was four and I have to drive past a monument to "our boys who wore the grey" every time I go into town for groceries.)
Shiroyama was impressive in part because Saigou's rebel samurai actually reached their targets and inflicted disproportionate casualties before being gunned down.
Camarón took place amid a French attempt to conquer Mexico as a colony while the US was occupied with the aforementioned War of Southern Aggression and couldn't enforce the Monroe Doctrine. I don't find that impressive.
With Dien Bien Phu, I find the work of the Vietcong under General Giap in the same battle to be far more interesting. They were well-led and used the terrain and weather intelligently to decisively defeat a technologically superior opponent.
I'll even talk about a couple heroic charges you didn't.
Thermopylae is important because of what it allowed the Greeks to do afterwards: Leonidas, his 300 Spartans, and the eleven hundred other Greek troops who are never talked about in popular history, were fighting a delaying action and succeeded in their objective despite dying to a man. Their sacrifice allowed the Greeks to keep the bulk of their forces intact for the later battles at Salamis and Plataea, where they defeated the Persian invasion.
Isandhlwana and Rorke's Drift. The Zulus, not the Brits, are the real heroes there, because they were fighting to maintain their independence from the limeys invading their country. And at Isandhlwana, they won decisively despite using "spears and shields of oxenhide, facing uniforms and guns" as the song goes.
Finland during the Winter War. Outnumbered two to one in infantry, 34 to one in aircraft, and at least 78 to one in tanks, they fought a brilliant asymmetric campaign with defensive terrain and forced the Soviets to accept a much smaller war settlement than they originally fought for. The aftereffects are important, too: the Soviet underperformance made Hitler think he could beat them easily, while in actual fact the Winter War had provided valuable experience to the post-purge Red Army and prompted them to replace their substandard prewar tanks with possibly the single best tank of World War II: the T-34.
The 1701-A being re-christened Enterprise from Yorktown technically isn't canon. It stems from a comment Gene Roddenberry made in passing shortly after Star Trek IV came out. They've never stated whether or not the A was a new build or a re-christening.
Its popular and has been used in a few soft canon sources so... its generally accepted by now that Enterprise-A was formerly the Yorktown.
Scotty doesn't agree. Here's what he said at the start or Star Trek V: "U.S.S. Enterprise. Shakedown cruise report. I think this new ship was put together by monkeys. Oh she's got a fine engine, but half the doors won't open". It's a "new" ship, with typical problems for a ship fresh from a builder's yard. There's no mention of problems stemming from being an old ship, or from being a repaired ship. Just from being a "new" ship.
Besides that, why would anyone want to rename the Yorktown? That ship's crew just died in service of the Federation. Renaming their ship would be an insult, a way of saying their memory didn't matter. It's common enough to rename an under-construction or brand new ship for a recently lost vessel. Aside from a multitude of historical examples, DS 9 showed the new Sao Paulo being renamed Defiant. But it doesn't happen for older ships.
I know this isn't going to change anyone's mind. For some reason, people have an emotional attachment to the idea that Yorktown was renamed Enterprise. I've never understood that.
Off the top of my head I can think of one example of an existing ship being renamed, but it involved the ship being sold to another navy: the Turkish Naval Forces frigate TCG Gelibolu used to be USS Reid FFG-30 (my father worked on the presale refits).
The only reference I can find for the Enterprise-A is Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise, which states the -A was constructed as USS Ti-Ho but renamed before commissioning.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Oh, here's another good one, if you want a really heroic-in-context last stand that still didn't amount to much in the larger war: the Battle of Wizna. 700 or so entrenched Polish infantry with six artillery guns and two anti-tank rifles held off a German army numbering over 40,000 for three days even as the rest of the Polish Army rapidly collapsed under General Guderian's blitzkrieg. Their captain, Władysław Raginis, finally blew himself up with a grenade rather than surrender when German engineers began to crack the Polish fortifications and his troops ran out of ammunition. And they got immortalized in one of Sabaton's best songs for their troubles:
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
The entwinement of Enterprise and Yorktown goes back much further. In Roddenberry's original pitch for Star Trek, he set the adventures aboard the SS Yorktown, of the United Earth Space Fleet. (The UFP was in fact a creation of Gene L. Coon's, as were the Klingons and many other iconic aspects of the show...)
As for alien metaphors, I try to use them in my fics in Ten Forward. There was one where Capt. Grunt, a Ferengi, said that "at least this time we won't be caught with our pockets open."
His Andorian helmsman asked about that; the Human comms officer explained, "'On open ice', as Andorians say. Humans say, 'caught with their pants down'."
So as you can see, inserting alien metaphors can be useful for entertainment purposes - but unless someone explains to the human audience what they mean, you're doing a "Darmok" remake. (And there's a metaphor that needs explaining to outsiders for ya!)
Shon's charge was not pointless. He was buying the player time to get through the portal and, so it was assumed, reverse the whole war by preventing the Iconians from surviving their homeworld's bombardment in the past.
Where do people get the idea from that it was a pointless charge, with only certain death and no gains to be had?
Only a complete incompetent would have put the portal in the Sol system in the first place. Any halfway decent general would consider the capital system and military headquarters of the most powerful government in the region a prime target for a decapitation strike, especially since Iconian teleportation tech means they don't have to rely on island-hopping the way the Allies do. It's only down to lousy writing of both sides in that story arc that Earth wasn't attacked sooner.
Again: we were sent down to ignomious defeat at the hands of the murderers of billions by incompetent blue-blooded Klingon twits who first blew their own special forces mission to attack an Iconian with a sharp stick ("House Pratfall"), then threw away most of the allied fleet in a zerg-rush against a defended position where the other side practically was the zerg ("Broken Circle"). Frontal attacks against fortifications never work without the attacker having either significant numerical superiority or a man on the inside, whereas at Iconia the defender had both numerical superiority and superior mobility.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
I get the feeling that something is probably happening with all cruisers and that's why we just got a special blog. Vessels got secondary deflectors, escorts got experimental weapons, so I'm guessing that pure cruisers are about to get their little extra piece. Looking at the pictures, I'm assuming we're getting a engine related slot, since the Odyssey is running 10 Impulse Thrusters and the Yorktown is running 4 Engines (2 different types).
Though I'm wondering what made them decide on an engine related slot.
Shon's charge was not pointless. He was buying the player time to get through the portal and, so it was assumed, reverse the whole war by preventing the Iconians from surviving their homeworld's bombardment in the past.
Where do people get the idea from that it was a pointless charge, with only certain death and no gains to be had?
Only a complete incompetent would have put the portal in the Sol system in the first place. Any halfway decent general would consider the capital system and military headquarters of the most powerful government in the region a prime target for a decapitation strike, especially since Iconian teleportation tech means they don't have to rely on island-hopping the way the Allies do. It's only down to lousy writing of both sides in that story arc that Earth wasn't attacked sooner.
Again: we were sent down to ignomious defeat at the hands of the murderers of billions by incompetent blue-blooded Klingon twits who first blew their own special forces mission to attack an Iconian with a sharp stick ("House Pratfall"), then threw away most of the allied fleet in a zerg-rush against a defended position where the other side practically was the zerg ("Broken Circle"). Frontal attacks against fortifications never work without the attacker having either significant numerical superiority or a man on the inside, whereas at Iconia the defender had both numerical superiority and superior mobility.
Well ok but it wasn't Shon's choice to put the portal there. He did the best he could given the situation and I'm just saying that it wasn't a pointless sacrifice he was about to make.
As for Earth not being attacked sooner: the Iconian's hubris is probably the explanatory factor here. That, and the fact that they wanted to exterminate all alliance worlds (note how T'ket still wants to do that at the negotiations at the end of Midnight).
They probably thought they couldn't be stopped and that they had all the time to exterminate various worlds before realising that things took too long or whatever reason they had to move to Earth.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,664Community Moderator
Scotty doesn't agree. Here's what he said at the start or Star Trek V: "U.S.S. Enterprise. Shakedown cruise report. I think this new ship was put together by monkeys. Oh she's got a fine engine, but half the doors won't open". It's a "new" ship, with typical problems for a ship fresh from a builder's yard. There's no mention of problems stemming from being an old ship, or from being a repaired ship. Just from being a "new" ship.
I don't dispute that the Enterprise-A was a new ship at all. What I was pointing out that she STARTED life as the Yorktown.
Besides that, why would anyone want to rename the Yorktown? That ship's crew just died in service of the Federation. Renaming their ship would be an insult, a way of saying their memory didn't matter. It's common enough to rename an under-construction or brand new ship for a recently lost vessel. Aside from a multitude of historical examples, DS 9 showed the new Sao Paulo being renamed Defiant. But it doesn't happen for older ships.
You pretty much answered yourself.
I know this isn't going to change anyone's mind. For some reason, people have an emotional attachment to the idea that Yorktown was renamed Enterprise. I've never understood that.
As someone said, the idea ORIGINALLY came from Roddenberry's original pitch that was set aboard the Yorktown. There are references to the Yorktown in many sources as well. Some more official than others. The truth is, as far as I know, there is no CANON identity to the Enterprise-A other than Enterprise-A. But we have to consider that it takes a long time to build a ship. They didn't just build her in the time it took for the fallout to settle from Kirk's trip to the past to bring back humpback whales. A ship was ALREADY under construction, and was already named, but they renamed her in time for her first deployment under her new Captain, James T. Kirk.
Do we know the name of this Connie before she was Enterprise? Not officially no. There are two different names floating around, as pointed out by starsword, but the most popular by far is Yorktown.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
I'm still annoyed at the focus on the Oddy, it's a modern Galaxy class --a bloated space whale better suited to long periods of peace and times of abundance where excessive size and amenities are an affordable luxury. Logically, the class should have been put on hold until Starfleet could recover. The Avenger should have taken center stage for a while.
The in-universe announcement could look something like the following:
"The Odyssey class represents the best of Starfleet ideals, and she is not being abandoned. However, she is not what we need right now. Her size, grace, and amenities are, like the Galaxy class before her, a representative of a Starfleet that has ample resources and need spare nothing to provide a combination of luxury and functionality without compromise. We are not in a position to spare nothing in the current state of the fleet. On the other hand, we are not so desperate as to force our crews to adapt to the spartan, no-nonsense and claustrophobic conditions of the Defiant class despite how tempting it might seem to produce large numbers of trim fighting machines given the threats we face. We are still Starfleet, and we are not yet that desperate that we will abandon our identity so completely. So, after great deliberation, we have decided on a compromise between the two extremes. Until such a time as we can afford to prioritize the Odyssey class again, we shall form the backbone of the fleet from her strongest component, the Arbiter class battlecruiser.
The advantages of this strategy are clear and overwhelming. Our shipyards can produce two to three Arbiter class vessels for the time and resources of every Odyssey, with a similar advantage in crew complement. She has proven to be durable and powerful, while retaining vital non-combat capabilities and important crew comforts. In her base configuration she has proven to be superior to Odyssey in combat capability and survivability, while her spaceframe is versatile enough to allow customized variants for differing mission profiles. These variants sacrifice some of the blistering firepower, but retain the remarkable toughness and durability of the design which benefits our top priority --the safety and well-being of the crew and officers who serve aboard her. One day we will return to the lofty ambitions the Odyssey class represents, but for the foreseeable future we will be proud to showcase our practical side and the ability of our engineers to create excellence in efficient functionality."
From a game perspective it makes sense too. I rarely see spacewhales in play, but it's very common to see Avenger / Arbiter class show up in STF missions. She's just a better performing ship, period. Dev resources could be far better spent on variants and appearance customizations for that class which is used so much more than the rarely-used Oddy. If Cryptic put out a bundle pack of battlecruisers based on the Avenger, Mogh, and an appropriate Romulan vessel I have no doubt it would sell and I would immediately put my zen towards at least the Fed ships.
I agree, and this is the reason I prefer for the Excelsior-class lasting as long as it did. It's the B-52 or C-130 of Starfleet: an old, reliable, upgradeable workhorse cruiser that is cheaper to field than many of the newer ones. In my fanfiction I figured that the Sovereign-class was supposed to be an Excelsior replacement based on the similar profile, but it was too big and complex so the Dakota-class and Stargazer-class got the job instead. The Avenger-class and derivatives become more common following the Iconian War because allied forces are so depleted that Starfleet has little choice but to focus on its defense and law enforcement role rather than its exploration role.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Yes, but if you don't know their cultures, you'll miss the meaning of some things they're saying like quotes and idioms.
"Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra" -> It took a good chunk of an episode to understand this meaning. And it was great because it was the point of the episode: understanding the Tamarians. But when it's not the main point, it becomes annoying very fast because either you don't get the point or other characters waste time to explain.
We'll never learn their culture unless we do see them presented on an equal playing field as human culture. We already know human culture. Some of us are sick of human culture and tune in to alien-friendly franchises like Star Trek to get to know the cultures of fictional races. But this "the audience is human and won't like alien culture on aliens" BS is the antithesis of what we're looking for.
The Star Wars Holiday Special. No subtitles for the Wookies is very immersive. It's also pointless since they do human actions in a human house with human tools, so body language was enough. It also makes your ears bleed and gives you murderous urges.
The way too many unnecessary QTE in the game Heavy Rain. Immersive, yes, but it's still padding of the worst kind.
The inventory system of the recent Alone in the Dark. Immersive, yes. Realistic, yes. Totally impractical? Heck yes!
Sounds like you're trying to speak for everyone here.
If something is happening in a scene, then it's best to accurately portray those happenings on the medium that you're expressing that scene in, even if it isn't very pleasant to some audience members. After all, not everyone will enjoy any given fiction. Why pander to those that wouldn't enjoy the material presented as close as possible to he universe you're wanting to present?
Does this mean there will be upgrades available for current flagships? I bought all three variants and I'm not going to replace them. We need a T6.5 upgrade available.
We already know human culture. Some of us are sick of human culture and tune in to alien-friendly franchises like Star Trek to get to know the cultures of fictional races. But this "the audience is human and won't like alien culture on aliens" BS is the antithesis of what we're looking for.
That's not even close to what I meant. It's not about liking something, it's about practicality and comfort of obscure references and quotes in pieces of media that don't need them because that's not even the point of the pieces in the first place.
Sounds like you're trying to speak for everyone here.
You wanted a demonstration of "more immersion/=better" so I gave examples. Your Mileage May Vary, of course, like everything, since it's about finding something good/better, which is subjective for everyone. I just picked 3 that have a good reputation of trying too hard in immersion and failing to make something interesting with it.
If something is happening in a scene, then it's best to accurately portray those happenings on the medium that you're expressing that scene in, even if it isn't very pleasant to some audience members.
Who is to say Shon isn't more fascinated by human poetry than Andorian one (assuming they even have one, perhaps poetry is offensive for this species), and thus he's accurately represented?
> @darthmeow504 said: > I'm still annoyed at the focus on the Oddy, it's a modern Galaxy class --a bloated space whale better suited to long periods of peace and times of abundance where excessive size and amenities are an affordable luxury. Logically, the class should have been put on hold until Starfleet could recover. The Avenger should have taken center stage for a while. > > The in-universe announcement could look something like the following: > > "The Odyssey class represents the best of Starfleet ideals, and she is not being abandoned. However, she is not what we need right now. Her size, grace, and amenities are, like the Galaxy class before her, a representative of a Starfleet that has ample resources and need spare nothing to provide a combination of luxury and functionality without compromise. We are not in a position to spare nothing in the current state of the fleet. On the other hand, we are not so desperate as to force our crews to adapt to the spartan, no-nonsense and claustrophobic conditions of the Defiant class despite how tempting it might seem to produce large numbers of trim fighting machines given the threats we face. We are still Starfleet, and we are not yet that desperate that we will abandon our identity so completely. So, after great deliberation, we have decided on a compromise between the two extremes. Until such a time as we can afford to prioritize the Odyssey class again, we shall form the backbone of the fleet from her strongest component, the Arbiter class battlecruiser. > > The advantages of this strategy are clear and overwhelming. Our shipyards can produce two to three Arbiter class vessels for the time and resources of every Odyssey, with a similar advantage in crew complement. She has proven to be durable and powerful, while retaining vital non-combat capabilities and important crew comforts. In her base configuration she has proven to be superior to Odyssey in combat capability and survivability, while her spaceframe is versatile enough to allow customized variants for differing mission profiles. These variants sacrifice some of the blistering firepower, but retain the remarkable toughness and durability of the design which benefits our top priority --the safety and well-being of the crew and officers who serve aboard her. One day we will return to the lofty ambitions the Odyssey class represents, but for the foreseeable future we will be proud to showcase our practical side and the ability of our engineers to create excellence in efficient functionality." > > From a game perspective it makes sense too. I rarely see spacewhales in play, but it's very common to see Avenger / Arbiter class show up in STF missions. She's just a better performing ship, period. Dev resources could be far better spent on variants and appearance customizations for that class which is used so much more than the rarely-used Oddy. If Cryptic put out a bundle pack of battlecruisers based on the Avenger, Mogh, and an appropriate Romulan vessel I have no doubt it would sell and I would immediately put my zen towards at least the Fed ships.
You are putting WAY too much emphasis on a function of game mechanics here - the Avenger/Arbiter classes get used because of their damage dealing ability, as damage dealing and pressing "f" comprises 99% of STO's content.
You could take the Avenger/Arbiter stats and swap them with any non-lobi/lockbox ship and end up with that ship being the number 1. Probably get more sales, the Avenbiters are visually challenged after all.
By contrast, a ship Starfleet would have lots of - the Olympic class, given it is a hospital ship in a time of constant conflict - is almost never seen outside of your Cmdr. rank ship, because the game mechanics don't favour it in any way.
[The Excelsior-class is] the B-52 or C-130 of Starfleet: an old, reliable, upgradeable workhorse cruiser that is cheaper to field than many of the newer ones.
An interesting comparison, especially given a recent announcement by the US Air Force. They're going to be retiring the B-1 Lancer and B-2 Spirit bombers as the B-21 Raider rolls out; the eventual plan is to have the B-21 as a heavy-strike bomber, while using the B-52 Stratofortress as a standoff bomber with ALCMs. I guess that's why there's a T5 Excelsior...
Does this mean there will be upgrades available for current flagships? I bought all three variants and I'm not going to replace them. We need a T6.5 upgrade available.
Love the stories guys. Keep up the good work.
The flagships already got their t6 upgrades ages back, this blog was just having the ENT-F be upgraded to said upgrade.
This.
And I would like to know if the IKS BortaSqu' and RRW Lleiset received upgrades of their own, and what their upgraded forms are. It makes sense for those upgrades to happen, from multiple points of view: First, they probably took an equal beating in that final battle to that of the Enterprise, meaning repairs and refits are probably a good idea. And second is the possible dev viewpoint of, "We're going to be using our factional flagships for the first time in a while, why don't we update them from their old T5 forms to one of the T6 forms we released after their last appearance?"
I don't know enough about the T6 Scimitar variants to see what makes the most sense with them, but with the BortaSqu', the Martok-class makes the most sense on my end.
the main point of contention, and upset seems to be the illusion of the valley itself. what it is intended to mean in this hog poge article is a mis-match, and at the least a attempt at a good tell left grasping. in the biblical valley perspective it is evil and the temptations that are the undoing of man, in the charge it is simpler - death ....before, beside and all around,inescapable. in shons case it is just a follow the leader for lack of a plan or better option.a pointless, wasted death like a cub cadet would do or the average red shirt!(or didnt think the content thru perhaps. even writers have off days).shon says that the enterprise survived thru the valley that time ...the truth is he has never been IN the valley with enterprise only showing up late to skirt around or thru its aftermath, to shake it off, so matter of fact like. one ponders why he always seems to show up late to "save the day" charging to the front of those there battling before he arrives in so many cases...left me hanging in more than one case. it is not unlike ole Scotty over estimating the damage repair time to be the miracle worker fixing the critical problem in half the time ? Sure he touts glory and for the honor dribble, like most his race angrily, of the had to save the earth hype that other than to proclaim his own over touted glorious self, adds naught to the facts of the situation, but most surely over exaggerate his damn the torpedoes lets get everyone killed mentality that is so on par with we come in peace shoot to kill! shon captaincy style... typical of in game play but per the show would get you out of the captains chair if not court of revue, like several types that come to mind even from as far back as the original series to present...often the "bad captain or commadore decker "types that do fit the chip on the shoulder stereo-type" but back to on point, a refit is just same modified slightly = marginal upgrade, a rebuild hopefully could be more, or just a extensive repair with little change. a new ship line- the hope of something fresh-- you see the power of words is to use them clearly to convey the intended meaning or meanings. in the case of this "valley" and the ship hype its just a long read with various levels of hype and little real meat to get excited about..mostly tho its spot on in any case for the federation propaganda corps......from this Klingon players perspective
bear in mind this is meant as a satirical ,sarcastic view not unlike that feel of the still red headed romulan step child sub race, and many still 2 dimensional races in game, crying out for more content. but yeah lets redo another fed thing for sure.
Very interesting to see the Enterprise got a Yorktown refit.
Did the BortaSqu' or the Lleiset get refit into one of their upgrade types, or do they still retain their base hull designs? I personally can see the BortaSqu' at least getting upgraded to a Martok - the Martok, apart from hull changes, essentially follows typical Klingon design philosophy: 'just strap more guns to it!' So yeah, the Klingon Flagship getting a new hull design and more guns makes a lot of sense to me.
The Bortasque just needs a trip to the scrappers, or maybe to a museum as an example of successful industrial sabotage by Starfleet Intelligence. ("...and out the window, we can see the IKS Bortasque, the result of successful infiltration into KDF procurement and engineering groups by Starfleet sabotuers. The Bortasque cost as much in materiel and resources as the entire Klingon Second Fleet, but was chronically unable to perform up to the standards of the much older Vor'cha class. The construction of the class nearly bankrupted the Klingon shipbuilding industry and slowed the development of the Mogh class, delaying it by nearly ten years. Analysts estimate the waste imposed by the Bortasque as critical in slowing the Klingon military's advance against the Federation, and crippling their forces against both the Undine, and the Iconians...")
Man, that'd be funny.
I just gotta figure that the bortaSqu' and Kagran still being around have gotta be results of the old boys' club. Come to that, the Klingons have got it worse than the British Army did: Lord Raglan actually had the guts to sack Lord Lucan after the Light Brigade clusterphekk.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Comments
But, the quote Shon made had nothing to do with the actual charge, but everything to do with Tennyson's poem. In the poem it was a futile and stupid effort...but it was done gallantly.
This is the point. To die Valiantly, Gallantly....in an effort so in vain that it wouldnt even classify as stupid. Many charges that become synonymous with Heroic death were at the heart blunders...or a what the hell moment. Picketts, the Light Brigade, Bayonet Charge at Camaron, Shiroyama...one could even classify the French Paratroopers jumping into Dien Bien Phu the same A quote from any of these would be appropriate...but none hold both the poignancy and are as well known as this poem.
So again, its entirely appropriate to quote...it fits the mood, and the actions undertaken...
I suppose they could have invented some Andorian quote that had a similar feel and meaning...but why bother whe this quote would do so nicely
Just saying.
Scotty doesn't agree. Here's what he said at the start or Star Trek V: "U.S.S. Enterprise. Shakedown cruise report. I think this new ship was put together by monkeys. Oh she's got a fine engine, but half the doors won't open". It's a "new" ship, with typical problems for a ship fresh from a builder's yard. There's no mention of problems stemming from being an old ship, or from being a repaired ship. Just from being a "new" ship.
Besides that, why would anyone want to rename the Yorktown? That ship's crew just died in service of the Federation. Renaming their ship would be an insult, a way of saying their memory didn't matter. It's common enough to rename an under-construction or brand new ship for a recently lost vessel. Aside from a multitude of historical examples, DS 9 showed the new Sao Paulo being renamed Defiant. But it doesn't happen for older ships.
I know this isn't going to change anyone's mind. For some reason, people have an emotional attachment to the idea that Yorktown was renamed Enterprise. I've never understood that.
"Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra" -> It took a good chunk of an episode to understand this meaning. And it was great because it was the point of the episode: understanding the Tamarians. But when it's not the main point, it becomes annoying very fast because either you don't get the point or other characters waste time to explain.
The Star Wars Holiday Special. No subtitles for the Wookies is very immersive. It's also pointless since they do human actions in a human house with human tools, so body language was enough. It also makes your ears bleed and gives you murderous urges.
The way too many unnecessary QTE in the game Heavy Rain. Immersive, yes, but it's still padding of the worst kind.
The inventory system of the recent Alone in the Dark. Immersive, yes. Realistic, yes. Totally impractical? Heck yes!
The bridge crew of the Enterprice (NCC-1701-F) seems to be predominantly human so that also means it makes sense for Shon to use a human poem rather then an andorian one, for the benefit of his crew.
And that's assuming Shon wasn't raised on Earth and thus be more familiar with earth culture(s) then andorian one(s), after all culture isn't genetic it's learned and that's why Worf has idealized picture of the klingon culture he was raised on earth and didn't have any contact with living klingon culture just the information his foster parents had.
i don't understand these poems because they are about something that is greatly exaggerated. If Shon charged at the Iconians with the one or two ships left, it wouldn't help anything getting himself killed especially if the reason is pointless for the charge in the first place, it would simply be an empty pointless death which didn't help anyone or himself. He would of been better off trying to defend his comrades elsewhere in the battle and died valiantly doing this.
Oath? An oath is a statement that you promise to do something and carry it through no matter what. in this case to uphold the values and standards of Starfleet and to protect Starfleet, Suicide would invalidate that oath since Shon didn't follow through the oath to its end. This would be considered an act of Perjury, a dishonorable act of willfully not carrying through with the oath and the consequences for this would be severe even if he survived. One can't obey an oath if it can't be completed, not even in death: killed by someone else, it still would of been a dishonorable death.
So yes stupid is just stupid in this case, there is nothing honorable charging into the jaws of death with no hope of survival.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Where do people get the idea from that it was a pointless charge, with only certain death and no gains to be had?
Maybe it's just me, but I happen to be of the opinion that if you're going to be referencing history in fiction, you ought to actually research that history and think a little harder about the implications. Shon being an Andorian, I can believe him having encountered the poem in a literature elective at the Academy and not understanding the context, but it casts the events in a very different light if you know the history. So let's go through them.
Off the top of my head I can think of one example of an existing ship being renamed, but it involved the ship being sold to another navy: the Turkish Naval Forces frigate TCG Gelibolu used to be USS Reid FFG-30 (my father worked on the presale refits).
The only reference I can find for the Enterprise-A is Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise, which states the -A was constructed as USS Ti-Ho but renamed before commissioning.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
As for alien metaphors, I try to use them in my fics in Ten Forward. There was one where Capt. Grunt, a Ferengi, said that "at least this time we won't be caught with our pockets open."
His Andorian helmsman asked about that; the Human comms officer explained, "'On open ice', as Andorians say. Humans say, 'caught with their pants down'."
So as you can see, inserting alien metaphors can be useful for entertainment purposes - but unless someone explains to the human audience what they mean, you're doing a "Darmok" remake. (And there's a metaphor that needs explaining to outsiders for ya!)
Only a complete incompetent would have put the portal in the Sol system in the first place. Any halfway decent general would consider the capital system and military headquarters of the most powerful government in the region a prime target for a decapitation strike, especially since Iconian teleportation tech means they don't have to rely on island-hopping the way the Allies do. It's only down to lousy writing of both sides in that story arc that Earth wasn't attacked sooner.
Again: we were sent down to ignomious defeat at the hands of the murderers of billions by incompetent blue-blooded Klingon twits who first blew their own special forces mission to attack an Iconian with a sharp stick ("House Pratfall"), then threw away most of the allied fleet in a zerg-rush against a defended position where the other side practically was the zerg ("Broken Circle"). Frontal attacks against fortifications never work without the attacker having either significant numerical superiority or a man on the inside, whereas at Iconia the defender had both numerical superiority and superior mobility.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Though I'm wondering what made them decide on an engine related slot.
Well ok but it wasn't Shon's choice to put the portal there. He did the best he could given the situation and I'm just saying that it wasn't a pointless sacrifice he was about to make.
As for Earth not being attacked sooner: the Iconian's hubris is probably the explanatory factor here. That, and the fact that they wanted to exterminate all alliance worlds (note how T'ket still wants to do that at the negotiations at the end of Midnight).
They probably thought they couldn't be stopped and that they had all the time to exterminate various worlds before realising that things took too long or whatever reason they had to move to Earth.
I don't dispute that the Enterprise-A was a new ship at all. What I was pointing out that she STARTED life as the Yorktown.
You pretty much answered yourself.
As someone said, the idea ORIGINALLY came from Roddenberry's original pitch that was set aboard the Yorktown. There are references to the Yorktown in many sources as well. Some more official than others. The truth is, as far as I know, there is no CANON identity to the Enterprise-A other than Enterprise-A. But we have to consider that it takes a long time to build a ship. They didn't just build her in the time it took for the fallout to settle from Kirk's trip to the past to bring back humpback whales. A ship was ALREADY under construction, and was already named, but they renamed her in time for her first deployment under her new Captain, James T. Kirk.
Do we know the name of this Connie before she was Enterprise? Not officially no. There are two different names floating around, as pointed out by starsword, but the most popular by far is Yorktown.
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
colored text = mod mode
I agree, and this is the reason I prefer for the Excelsior-class lasting as long as it did. It's the B-52 or C-130 of Starfleet: an old, reliable, upgradeable workhorse cruiser that is cheaper to field than many of the newer ones. In my fanfiction I figured that the Sovereign-class was supposed to be an Excelsior replacement based on the similar profile, but it was too big and complex so the Dakota-class and Stargazer-class got the job instead. The Avenger-class and derivatives become more common following the Iconian War because allied forces are so depleted that Starfleet has little choice but to focus on its defense and law enforcement role rather than its exploration role.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Sounds like you're trying to speak for everyone here.
If something is happening in a scene, then it's best to accurately portray those happenings on the medium that you're expressing that scene in, even if it isn't very pleasant to some audience members. After all, not everyone will enjoy any given fiction. Why pander to those that wouldn't enjoy the material presented as close as possible to he universe you're wanting to present?
Love the stories guys. Keep up the good work.
You wanted a demonstration of "more immersion/=better" so I gave examples. Your Mileage May Vary, of course, like everything, since it's about finding something good/better, which is subjective for everyone. I just picked 3 that have a good reputation of trying too hard in immersion and failing to make something interesting with it.
Who is to say Shon isn't more fascinated by human poetry than Andorian one (assuming they even have one, perhaps poetry is offensive for this species), and thus he's accurately represented?
> I'm still annoyed at the focus on the Oddy, it's a modern Galaxy class --a bloated space whale better suited to long periods of peace and times of abundance where excessive size and amenities are an affordable luxury. Logically, the class should have been put on hold until Starfleet could recover. The Avenger should have taken center stage for a while.
>
> The in-universe announcement could look something like the following:
>
> "The Odyssey class represents the best of Starfleet ideals, and she is not being abandoned. However, she is not what we need right now. Her size, grace, and amenities are, like the Galaxy class before her, a representative of a Starfleet that has ample resources and need spare nothing to provide a combination of luxury and functionality without compromise. We are not in a position to spare nothing in the current state of the fleet. On the other hand, we are not so desperate as to force our crews to adapt to the spartan, no-nonsense and claustrophobic conditions of the Defiant class despite how tempting it might seem to produce large numbers of trim fighting machines given the threats we face. We are still Starfleet, and we are not yet that desperate that we will abandon our identity so completely. So, after great deliberation, we have decided on a compromise between the two extremes. Until such a time as we can afford to prioritize the Odyssey class again, we shall form the backbone of the fleet from her strongest component, the Arbiter class battlecruiser.
>
> The advantages of this strategy are clear and overwhelming. Our shipyards can produce two to three Arbiter class vessels for the time and resources of every Odyssey, with a similar advantage in crew complement. She has proven to be durable and powerful, while retaining vital non-combat capabilities and important crew comforts. In her base configuration she has proven to be superior to Odyssey in combat capability and survivability, while her spaceframe is versatile enough to allow customized variants for differing mission profiles. These variants sacrifice some of the blistering firepower, but retain the remarkable toughness and durability of the design which benefits our top priority --the safety and well-being of the crew and officers who serve aboard her. One day we will return to the lofty ambitions the Odyssey class represents, but for the foreseeable future we will be proud to showcase our practical side and the ability of our engineers to create excellence in efficient functionality."
>
> From a game perspective it makes sense too. I rarely see spacewhales in play, but it's very common to see Avenger / Arbiter class show up in STF missions. She's just a better performing ship, period. Dev resources could be far better spent on variants and appearance customizations for that class which is used so much more than the rarely-used Oddy. If Cryptic put out a bundle pack of battlecruisers based on the Avenger, Mogh, and an appropriate Romulan vessel I have no doubt it would sell and I would immediately put my zen towards at least the Fed ships.
You are putting WAY too much emphasis on a function of game mechanics here - the Avenger/Arbiter classes get used because of their damage dealing ability, as damage dealing and pressing "f" comprises 99% of STO's content.
You could take the Avenger/Arbiter stats and swap them with any non-lobi/lockbox ship and end up with that ship being the number 1. Probably get more sales, the Avenbiters are visually challenged after all.
By contrast, a ship Starfleet would have lots of - the Olympic class, given it is a hospital ship in a time of constant conflict - is almost never seen outside of your Cmdr. rank ship, because the game mechanics don't favour it in any way.
This.
And I would like to know if the IKS BortaSqu' and RRW Lleiset received upgrades of their own, and what their upgraded forms are. It makes sense for those upgrades to happen, from multiple points of view: First, they probably took an equal beating in that final battle to that of the Enterprise, meaning repairs and refits are probably a good idea. And second is the possible dev viewpoint of, "We're going to be using our factional flagships for the first time in a while, why don't we update them from their old T5 forms to one of the T6 forms we released after their last appearance?"
I don't know enough about the T6 Scimitar variants to see what makes the most sense with them, but with the BortaSqu', the Martok-class makes the most sense on my end.
bear in mind this is meant as a satirical ,sarcastic view not unlike that feel of the still red headed romulan step child sub race, and many still 2 dimensional races in game, crying out for more content. but yeah lets redo another fed thing for sure.
Man, that'd be funny.
I just gotta figure that the bortaSqu' and Kagran still being around have gotta be results of the old boys' club. Come to that, the Klingons have got it worse than the British Army did: Lord Raglan actually had the guts to sack Lord Lucan after the Light Brigade clusterphekk.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/