Yes, but if you don't know their cultures, you'll miss the meaning of some things they're saying like quotes and idioms.
"Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra" -> It took a good chunk of an episode to understand this meaning. And it was great because it was the point of the episode: understanding the Tamarians. But when it's not the main point, it becomes annoying very fast because either you don't get the point or other characters waste time to explain.
We'll never learn their culture unless we do see them presented on an equal playing field as human culture. We already know human culture. Some of us are sick of human culture and tune in to alien-friendly franchises like Star Trek to get to know the cultures of fictional races. But this "the audience is human and won't like alien culture on aliens" BS is the antithesis of what we're looking for.
And the Trope of the Day is: No Such Thing as Alien Pop Culture. And I really like it when works don't abide by it: the Klingons have their opera and legends, Diane Duane quoted Romulan epic literature in Rihannsu, and per Garak the Cardassians have their "repetitive epics" and military fiction about a war with the Klingons. Mass Effect did Star Trek one better, with mentions of alien MMORPGs, smutty romance movies, so-bad-they're-good B-movies, and p*rn. It really makes the world feel more lived-in.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
> @starswordc said: > hdoggy wrote: » > > saurializard wrote: » > > Yes, but if you don't know their cultures, you'll miss the meaning of some things they're saying like quotes and idioms. > "Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra" -> It took a good chunk of an episode to understand this meaning. And it was great because it was the point of the episode: understanding the Tamarians. But when it's not the main point, it becomes annoying very fast because either you don't get the point or other characters waste time to explain. > > > > We'll never learn their culture unless we do see them presented on an equal playing field as human culture. We already know human culture. Some of us are sick of human culture and tune in to alien-friendly franchises like Star Trek to get to know the cultures of fictional races. But this "the audience is human and won't like alien culture on aliens" BS is the antithesis of what we're looking for. > > > > > And the Trope of the Day is: No Such Thing as Alien Pop Culture. And I really like it when works don't abide by it: the Klingons have their opera and legends, Diane Duane quoted Romulan epic literature in Rihannsu, and per Garak the Cardassians have their "repetitive epics" and military fiction about a war with the Klingons. Mass Effect did Star Trek one better, with mentions of alien MMORPGs, smutty romance movies, so-bad-they're-good B-movies, and p*rn. It really makes the world feel more lived-in.
"Vulcan love slave" anyone?
Star Trek races make the based p*rn, they have holodecks and other advanced delivery methods.
Star Trek races make the based p*rn, they have holodecks and other advanced delivery methods.
And yes, there's that. XD We also had Quark trying to make the holodeck equivalent of real person fic of Kira Nerys...
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
And this ongoing conversation is why nerds have been laughed AT for so long.
Seriously guys? You are going to focus on the context of a poem that got spoken in one mission, rather than the blog showing that the Enterprise has gone through hell and officially revealing that she has been refitted, explaining why she has been MIA for a while? As well as ignoring the extra effort that went into this one with some extra graphics and the like and the nice little bit of extra world-building with this Ship magazine?
And this ongoing conversation is why nerds have been laughed AT for so long.
Seriously guys? You are going to focus on the context of a poem that got spoken in one mission, rather than the blog showing that the Enterprise has gone through hell and officially revealing that she has been refitted, explaining why she has been MIA for a while? As well as ignoring the extra effort that went into this one with some extra graphics and the like and the nice little bit of extra world-building with this Ship magazine?
Come on.
Why am I compelled to care what the Enterprise has been doing? Shon's a nice guy, but he's the hero of a different story, so barring evidence to the contrary I assume he's doing the normal "show the flag" stuff the Enterprise is always tasked with in canon. As Kanril Eleya, Brokosh, Morgaiah t'Thavrau, and Tyria Sark, I've got my own ship, my own crew, and my own missions to worry about.
But then I have the same reaction to Cryptic's increasing reliance on cameos of TV show characters: every time they show up I feel like the focus shifts away from the PC and their adventures and onto "cool, we got Tim Russ to voice an episode!" I'd rather have no voice acting at all and pay the money towards bugfixes and better-written missions.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
A beautiful, entertaining piece of fiction that transmits both the Star Trek as well as the "Naval tradition" vibe.
In the game however, Shon would had to command at least four, possibly five other vessels in the meatime to collect the necessary ship traits.
Not true - the Enterprise comes with a unique Starship trait. One that we will never have access to: Starship Trait: Plot Armor. Emits a 'Fate' field which protects fools, little children, and ships named Enterprise.
I've heard that CaptainGeko wanted to bring a Tier 6 Nova as the next ship C-Store release,but reading your brilliant starship mastery trait idea, there will be a new Tier 6 bundle of a new Tier 6 version of every ship class that had an Enterprise (except of course NX-01 and Connie, those will be in DOFF and R&D Pack Promo).
Unfortunately, that means the new Nova will be delayed until February the earliest, and they don't know which year's February yet.
Mustrum "I am mean" Ridcully
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
That's not even close to what I meant. It's not about liking something, it's about practicality and comfort of obscure references and quotes in pieces of media that don't need them because that's not even the point of the pieces in the first place.
And what exactly do you think the point is..?
Besides, what's so uncomfortable about aliens being portrayed as aliens, rather than reflections of humans? They're aliens. They wouldn't act in ways to make humans comfortable if it infringed on their own identities.
You don't make sense, it seems like you're arguing that immersion isn't that important. That would be crazy. They are representations of fictional realities. If your goal isn't to represent that fiction reality correctly, what's the point?
Who is to say Shon isn't more fascinated by human poetry than Andorian one (assuming they even have one, perhaps poetry is offensive for this species), and thus he's accurately represented?
Sure, that could be the case. But that doesn't explain the many other different instances of human-centric cultural references by aliens in many, if not most other lore blogs. It's ridiculous.
Star Trek rarely gets opportunities to explore alien cultures from the alien's PoV. Why cheapen the opportunity of that which is STO?
Star Trek rarely gets opportunities to explore alien cultures from the alien's PoV. Why cheapen the opportunity of that which is STO?
Because most players don't give a ****. And those that actually read want to understand. Only a very small fraction would want the story to be real so much that you want the poor soul working on all story and text to invent multiple alien cultures probably in his/her free time...
EDIT: Seriously, you get a nice in-story explanation for Enterprise-F absence and recent return and you keep bitching about such barely related stuff. Sure, some more immersion could be nice, but it just doesn't warrant the time they'd have to spend on it.
TOIVA, Toi Vaxx, Toia Vix, Toveg, T'vritha, To Vrax: Bring in the Allegiance class. Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider. Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
Besides, what's so uncomfortable about aliens being portrayed as aliens, rather than reflections of humans? They're aliens. They wouldn't act in ways to make humans comfortable if it infringed on their own identities.
You don't make sense, it seems like you're arguing that immersion isn't that important. That would be crazy. They are representations of fictional realities. If your goal isn't to represent that fiction reality correctly, what's the point?
Seriously, what's the point?
Alright, I'll be more direct for you to understand better.
First, what toiva said
Star Trek rarely gets opportunities to explore alien cultures from the alien's PoV. Why cheapen the opportunity of that which is STO?
Because most players don't give a ****. And those that actually read want to understand. Only a very small fraction would want the story to be real so much that you want the poor soul working on all story and text to invent multiple alien cultures probably in his/her free time...
EDIT: Seriously, you get a nice in-story explanation for Enterprise-F absence and recent return and you keep bitching about such barely related stuff. Sure, some more immersion could be nice, but it just doesn't warrant the time they'd have to spend on it.
Second, the Jayce "files" are made by Thomas Marrone, the lead starship artist, in his spare time because he wants to bring more life to some of his creation, which is awesome and I give him a lot of kudos for doing this.
He's not a specialist in linguistics also great at creating fictional languages. He's not a world builder who creates entire private wikis just to make fictional universes look real for a living. He's not a psychologist, psychiatrist and neuroscience expert trying to create coherent yet alien minds.
He's just one man making little blogs for fun to give a quick in-universe explanation to his creations.
Third, like everyone else in this forums (except a few of you, you know who you are and we know. :P ), he's a HUMAN writing for HUMANS based on HUMAN works of fiction!
No matter what, there will still be human bias in any human's work, even if it's about making "true" aliens.
When aliens are done properly "alien", it took time and had generally more than one person fully busy for weeks, even months or years, just to do this right: language, culture, perception of everything, ships, buildings, alphabet, history.
well great article then( for the flag must wave) viva la federation, god how can we survive not knowing how the enterprise is doing in dry dock, its still not fixed yet?can i actually see some specs on the proposed improvements, oh right still classified but here wave this flag about it,and did we mention the enterprise yet. wait was that a ghost ship yesterday in my mission, i Swore that was a enterprise. ah as they warp by those feds all look the same lets be honest.? ah how many enterprises are sailing around in game on a daily bases i wonder, maybe keep fiction articles as that and actual ship reports and specs more on point of readouts and lil less wave the flag again feds, because you ARE the master race. but the lack of depth and development of the GAME beyond the Feds- cameos , both of show actors and the streams where 1/4 time is ah yeah ah what was i talking about might actually explain the lack of excitement in this? remains sadly a 8 year failure to take it to a next level past the kiddy pool ankle deep depth of yet another re run. possible even continuation where old shows left off, opening the other cultures or left lacking prior to cancellation, to show it to us, or a possibility, players can absorb more than they get credit for, not all are 12 years old - this is the fiction write type that adds depth- the new horizons, not repeat flag waving oh oh oh almost fainted the enterprise just warped by,OHH! Shon! heaven knows that might implode cannon. you have a lock on the concept, shame no one can think past the protocols or c store sales.
but then for cryptic it seems the federation IS all that matters or why even bother adding the kdf or other race options- character creation should be feds and these other (smirk ,why you not playing a fed) cameo races. romulans are still the hobo race, Cardassians, Klingons and everyone else are just there to blow up and talk down about?- Little more( oh Martoc , nice scar looking good bro ,want to run the feature again, so dig your threads, at least you actually help fight well drew fire at least sorta.) despite so called rewrites. no sense in trying anything new like thats too challenging, to busy redoing the next redo to have free time for what? content or known issue correction? Beyond the federation propoganda ? pfft! or bravely trying something like content depth that might rock the propagandist driven same old redo of the last redo, oh we can repeat a poem thats content right?!?- yes its getting boring boat. but the cameo actor repeating the bit lines and being just as useless in the actual mission makes all the difference in my player ...NOT! frankly the fact the npc is there matters very little in most situations, toward the outcome, aside waiting for them to catch up.they are so dumbed down as ai they insult the hyped legend of them often to me as inept cadets would play.when they show up to help i still have to fight my own way past the enemy. besides every mission is scripted ,shame we cant rewrite the outcome or at least input some alternate outcome, or that cameo have a drastic impact on the script, or the enterprise have a actual impact on this mission battle. but it is what it is.
yes they are nice adds for the fans and attempt a tie in to the original shows, the focus seems to mask any details in long read eye candy, often however. but as the primary focus beyond a new revamp of the same ole same old to add another sale item to the c store, and run back over that same plot of ground again... is little to show as improvement or content added.of course no amount of players speaking up will change that because we just complain, or are sole opinions (not matching the powers that be) or too dumbed down to care, must be spot on. such accolades as the romulan farmer race, nelix never shutting up, and shon why you just sitting there not doing anything but picking a fight at the treaty talks,again. at least la forge tries to help on missions, wait he has to hang back here again and watch as i will go save the day so he and shon can take the glory latter..... all in aLL ITS THE LOVE OF THE SERIES, the movies, the concept... the memory of that enjoyment and the level of content we have now that make it still playable for me personally and i suspect everyone has their own joys and wish list to make this better...oh snap others have opinions now there IS a concept...maybe 1 option isnt all there is huh? we can only continue to hope...make it so!
if you got this far we are even, you read mine(still less wasted space in print then the valley tripe) i read yours ,can we move on now to a glimmer or detail of coming additions, changes less buried in oh wave that fed flag and actual readouts of specs likely just as disappointing after you buy it and its eh really nothing new here,but wait for the release to find out.
@saurializard: Who said it has to be that complicated? A lot of places all you gotta do is make Shon say something along the lines of, "As the great playwright Jon sh'Mith wrote, 'Insert important-sounding BS.'" And presto, suddenly Andorians have their own Shakespeare. You don't have to actually write a play or a full language: even Klingon only has about 3000 words in its dictionary, and it was written by a professional linguist.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Comments
And the Trope of the Day is: No Such Thing as Alien Pop Culture. And I really like it when works don't abide by it: the Klingons have their opera and legends, Diane Duane quoted Romulan epic literature in Rihannsu, and per Garak the Cardassians have their "repetitive epics" and military fiction about a war with the Klingons. Mass Effect did Star Trek one better, with mentions of alien MMORPGs, smutty romance movies, so-bad-they're-good B-movies, and p*rn. It really makes the world feel more lived-in.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
> hdoggy wrote: »
>
> saurializard wrote: »
>
> Yes, but if you don't know their cultures, you'll miss the meaning of some things they're saying like quotes and idioms.
> "Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra" -> It took a good chunk of an episode to understand this meaning. And it was great because it was the point of the episode: understanding the Tamarians. But when it's not the main point, it becomes annoying very fast because either you don't get the point or other characters waste time to explain.
>
>
>
> We'll never learn their culture unless we do see them presented on an equal playing field as human culture. We already know human culture. Some of us are sick of human culture and tune in to alien-friendly franchises like Star Trek to get to know the cultures of fictional races. But this "the audience is human and won't like alien culture on aliens" BS is the antithesis of what we're looking for.
>
>
>
>
> And the Trope of the Day is: No Such Thing as Alien Pop Culture. And I really like it when works don't abide by it: the Klingons have their opera and legends, Diane Duane quoted Romulan epic literature in Rihannsu, and per Garak the Cardassians have their "repetitive epics" and military fiction about a war with the Klingons. Mass Effect did Star Trek one better, with mentions of alien MMORPGs, smutty romance movies, so-bad-they're-good B-movies, and p*rn. It really makes the world feel more lived-in.
"Vulcan love slave" anyone?
Star Trek races make the based p*rn, they have holodecks and other advanced delivery methods.
And yes, there's that. XD We also had Quark trying to make the holodeck equivalent of real person fic of Kira Nerys...
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Seriously guys? You are going to focus on the context of a poem that got spoken in one mission, rather than the blog showing that the Enterprise has gone through hell and officially revealing that she has been refitted, explaining why she has been MIA for a while? As well as ignoring the extra effort that went into this one with some extra graphics and the like and the nice little bit of extra world-building with this Ship magazine?
Come on.
Why am I compelled to care what the Enterprise has been doing? Shon's a nice guy, but he's the hero of a different story, so barring evidence to the contrary I assume he's doing the normal "show the flag" stuff the Enterprise is always tasked with in canon. As Kanril Eleya, Brokosh, Morgaiah t'Thavrau, and Tyria Sark, I've got my own ship, my own crew, and my own missions to worry about.
But then I have the same reaction to Cryptic's increasing reliance on cameos of TV show characters: every time they show up I feel like the focus shifts away from the PC and their adventures and onto "cool, we got Tim Russ to voice an episode!" I'd rather have no voice acting at all and pay the money towards bugfixes and better-written missions.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Unfortunately, that means the new Nova will be delayed until February the earliest, and they don't know which year's February yet.
Mustrum "I am mean" Ridcully
Besides, what's so uncomfortable about aliens being portrayed as aliens, rather than reflections of humans? They're aliens. They wouldn't act in ways to make humans comfortable if it infringed on their own identities.
You don't make sense, it seems like you're arguing that immersion isn't that important. That would be crazy. They are representations of fictional realities. If your goal isn't to represent that fiction reality correctly, what's the point?
Seriously, what's the point? Sure, that could be the case. But that doesn't explain the many other different instances of human-centric cultural references by aliens in many, if not most other lore blogs. It's ridiculous.
Star Trek rarely gets opportunities to explore alien cultures from the alien's PoV. Why cheapen the opportunity of that which is STO?
Because most players don't give a ****. And those that actually read want to understand. Only a very small fraction would want the story to be real so much that you want the poor soul working on all story and text to invent multiple alien cultures probably in his/her free time...
EDIT: Seriously, you get a nice in-story explanation for Enterprise-F absence and recent return and you keep bitching about such barely related stuff. Sure, some more immersion could be nice, but it just doesn't warrant the time they'd have to spend on it.
Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider.
Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
Don't make ARC mandatory! Keep it optional only!
First, what toiva said
Second, the Jayce "files" are made by Thomas Marrone, the lead starship artist, in his spare time because he wants to bring more life to some of his creation, which is awesome and I give him a lot of kudos for doing this.
He's not a specialist in linguistics also great at creating fictional languages. He's not a world builder who creates entire private wikis just to make fictional universes look real for a living. He's not a psychologist, psychiatrist and neuroscience expert trying to create coherent yet alien minds.
He's just one man making little blogs for fun to give a quick in-universe explanation to his creations.
Third, like everyone else in this forums (except a few of you, you know who you are and we know. :P ), he's a HUMAN writing for HUMANS based on HUMAN works of fiction!
No matter what, there will still be human bias in any human's work, even if it's about making "true" aliens.
When aliens are done properly "alien", it took time and had generally more than one person fully busy for weeks, even months or years, just to do this right: language, culture, perception of everything, ships, buildings, alphabet, history.
but then for cryptic it seems the federation IS all that matters or why even bother adding the kdf or other race options- character creation should be feds and these other (smirk ,why you not playing a fed) cameo races. romulans are still the hobo race, Cardassians, Klingons and everyone else are just there to blow up and talk down about?- Little more( oh Martoc , nice scar looking good bro ,want to run the feature again, so dig your threads, at least you actually help fight well drew fire at least sorta.) despite so called rewrites. no sense in trying anything new like thats too challenging, to busy redoing the next redo to have free time for what? content or known issue correction? Beyond the federation propoganda ? pfft! or bravely trying something like content depth that might rock the propagandist driven same old redo of the last redo, oh we can repeat a poem thats content right?!?- yes its getting boring boat. but the cameo actor repeating the bit lines and being just as useless in the actual mission makes all the difference in my player ...NOT! frankly the fact the npc is there matters very little in most situations, toward the outcome, aside waiting for them to catch up.they are so dumbed down as ai they insult the hyped legend of them often to me as inept cadets would play.when they show up to help i still have to fight my own way past the enemy. besides every mission is scripted ,shame we cant rewrite the outcome or at least input some alternate outcome, or that cameo have a drastic impact on the script, or the enterprise have a actual impact on this mission battle. but it is what it is.
yes they are nice adds for the fans and attempt a tie in to the original shows, the focus seems to mask any details in long read eye candy, often however. but as the primary focus beyond a new revamp of the same ole same old to add another sale item to the c store, and run back over that same plot of ground again... is little to show as improvement or content added.of course no amount of players speaking up will change that because we just complain, or are sole opinions (not matching the powers that be) or too dumbed down to care, must be spot on. such accolades as the romulan farmer race, nelix never shutting up, and shon why you just sitting there not doing anything but picking a fight at the treaty talks,again. at least la forge tries to help on missions, wait he has to hang back here again and watch as i will go save the day so he and shon can take the glory latter..... all in aLL ITS THE LOVE OF THE SERIES, the movies, the concept... the memory of that enjoyment and the level of content we have now that make it still playable for me personally and i suspect everyone has their own joys and wish list to make this better...oh snap others have opinions now there IS a concept...maybe 1 option isnt all there is huh? we can only continue to hope...make it so!
if you got this far we are even, you read mine(still less wasted space in print then the valley tripe) i read yours ,can we move on now to a glimmer or detail of coming additions, changes less buried in oh wave that fed flag and actual readouts of specs likely just as disappointing after you buy it and its eh really nothing new here,but wait for the release to find out.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/