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Honored Dead trait is game breaking and broken.

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  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 4,164 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    Those 1v1 vape 100,000k in a volley runs do not come anywhere near killing a Eng pilot with a reasonable amount of defence while buffs are running.

    Wanted to highlight this bit here. WHILE BUFFS ARE RUNNING. That is assuming you have time to buff at all. Many Vapers out there have cloaks, so you don't even know WHEN to buff, and by the time they decloak and attack, its already too late to buff. Even with decent resists, you're gonna live maybe one or two seconds, and that is not enough time to hit all the "save my A**" buffs.

    Vapers are built for spike damage. They need all their buffs up to get maximum carnage in a single pass. And typically a vaper will also have a cloak in order to get that opening volley and catch their opponent off guard.
    Apart from you can hear the enemy coming into an attack. Even if I miss that sound it’s not possible to kill a decent eng within 1 or 2 seconds. If the eng is being vaped in seconds it’s because something is wrong with the build.

    I have had vape ships catch me unaware and I am still alive 15sceond later due to having a decent defence fitted. There are a number of ways to survive that initial few seconds and get chance to respond.

  • sheldonlcoopersheldonlcooper Member Posts: 4,042 Arc User
    I try the trait today. It's ok. Probably been nerfed as much as it will be. I have the science specialist with no neutroniums. My usual resist is around 23. I play the counterpoint advanced and took a good beating throughout. My typical resist during the mission was 55 and occasionally 60 - which I guess would be the max. Interestingly all of the resists were the same even though a have a couple at 44 and one at 9 resting. I spent most of my time watching my stats and yet managed to survive unkilled. I give it an A- and passed one to all my team.
    Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."

    "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

  • casualstocasualsto Member Posts: 672 Arc User
    I'd like to bring this to the attention of the Dev Team. @borticuscryptic . (I previously apologize if I've tagged the wrong man for this, but hey, we're end-users, we don't really know much).

    The trait for PvE is far from broken. It simply lets Federation (which is the majority of the new/non-top-end users) to have a chance in being useful in a queue or in PvE. The nerfing of this would not be a solution for anyone.

    But the reason for which I've tagged Borticus and that this issue has caught my eye is that, indeed, in PvP this might be a serious concern due to the fact that for PvP only some adjustment would be required even if the PvP is not a primary content concern.

    I'd suggest two options I see viable, hopefully they'd at least inspire the hard working people who make this content that we keep criticizing gratuitously most of the time.

    Suggestion 1: PvP Condition Removal - The effect debuffs (wears off) if the player is struck by another player's weaponry. (This is good for sci as well, since exotic will hit hard after a torp will hit the target).

    Suggestion 2: PvP Damage debuff possible. In PvP, the trait would act as a buff and could be debuffed by Subnucleonic beam or any buff removal skills/procs. Also Causing the effect to be halfed in PvP (resistance-wise).

    Thank you for reading this and everyone is welcome to contribute further to this with well argumented and proactive opinions/suggestions.

    (Remember that suggestions are better than requests, since we don't really know how difficult certain implementations or fixes could be and maybe our ideas might result into polished results if presented properly to the dev-team, instead of hostilizing flame-talking)
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 57,969 Community Moderator
    It doesn't trigger a visual effect until you get a full stack of 20 on the buff.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • redvengeredvenge Member Posts: 1,425 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    cloak-busting isn't that difficult if you're paying attention instead of surfing netflix.
    Don't tell people that.

    Handing out a 1 month free Netflix subscription was going to be a key part of my "Bortas'que Vape" build.
  • tremere12tremere12 Member Posts: 477 Arc User
    sophlogimo wrote: »

    All those disturbed by the PvP implication: It is a cheap trait on the exchange. Just get it.

    Or pay up 500-1.5 billion for kdf...
  • tfomegatfomega Member Posts: 812 Arc User
    nimbull wrote: »
    To a point I can see the argument but also keep in mind KDF get a lot of Fed goodies on the cheap like Feds are getting Honored Dead. To really fix things Cryptic should stop offering on the cheap traits to opposing factions and either raise the prices to match the cost of getting the whole ship or retrofit faction ships with those traits in the game and charge same amount as the base faction for that trait so you get a generic faction ship filler with the trait and the price increase.



    What cryptic should start doing is separating a trait from a ship and allow you to buy the trait for a reduced c-store price rather than the ship itself. Everyone who buys a ship for a trait (if they do that) hates having to load up at that ship, settings boffs, abilities, power levels, power trays, etc.. just to go to Argala or wherever and level that ship to 5 mastery and then put it in dry docks for eternity. Cryptic does this to make you pay more for something you never wanted to begin with. They can still get their money, but do so in a more reasonable approach of selling the traits separately.

    I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
    MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
  • stark2kstark2k Member Posts: 1,467 Arc User
    PvP is ll but DEAD, let me spell it out D.E.A.D

    A) Unbalanced
    B) Starship traits and personal space traits are MUST have and overly expensive - to get even the best traits involves investing a ton of real cash to acquire them from extremely rare vanity Lockbox ships
    C) Ship class and Tier "DO MATTER"

    What Cryptic needs to do is setup a system like the classic Guild Wars, separate PvP only skills with PvE skills

    Also ship unlocks for PvP tourney for everyone for FREE - meaning you go in, select a ship type, select wep type, your consoles, and you PvP only skills - These ships, skills. traits, and weapons cannot be used for anything else but PvP.

    Then setup a PVP ranking system in game:

    A) With titles
    B) PvP rewards
    C) Doff and Bridge crew unlocks
    D) Prized PvE in game unique ships
    etc.....
    Zen prizes
    Refined Dilithium bundles

    Etc....
    StarTrekIronMan.jpg
  • tfomegatfomega Member Posts: 812 Arc User
    stark2k wrote: »
    PvP is ll but DEAD, let me spell it out D.E.A.D

    A) Unbalanced
    B) Starship traits and personal space traits are MUST have and overly expensive - to get even the best traits involves investing a ton of real cash to acquire them from extremely rare vanity Lockbox ships
    C) Ship class and Tier "DO MATTER"

    What Cryptic needs to do is setup a system like the classic Guild Wars, separate PvP only skills with PvE skills

    Also ship unlocks for PvP tourney for everyone for FREE - meaning you go in, select a ship type, select wep type, your consoles, and you PvP only skills - These ships, skills. traits, and weapons cannot be used for anything else but PvP.

    Then setup a PVP ranking system in game:

    A) With titles
    B) PvP rewards
    C) Doff and Bridge crew unlocks
    D) Prized PvE in game unique ships
    etc.....
    Zen prizes
    Refined Dilithium bundles

    Etc....

    I play PvP and I kill a minimum of 1 fed daily. Therefore as long as there are at least two players fighting each other, PvP is not dead.

    Agree with everything else you said.


    I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
    MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
  • tfomegatfomega Member Posts: 812 Arc User
    edited February 2018
    azrael605 wrote: »

    I rather suspect the majority do not buy ships for traits, they buy the ship for the ship. People who just buy for the traits should not be catered to.

    Your suspicion is not proof and therefore cannot determine who should be catered to. I would argue that most people in the game are probably f2p'ers buy the ship for the ship, but most probably don't buy many ships at all given colony dilithium costs and everything else. I buy zen with my credit card to get a ship that has a trait I want and would think that money is more important to cryptic than f2p'ers and the reasons why they buy a ship.



    I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
    MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
  • casualstocasualsto Member Posts: 672 Arc User
    The fun part here is that there are four reasons to push a player to get a ship :
    1. The player wants to use the ship (and its frame) for space gameplay.
    2. The player needs the trait/the console from the ship for his/her build.
    3. The player needs the visual to kitbash with another pieces onto his ship.
    4. The player simply supports the game and monthly buys 3000 zen to spend on something because it is free to play and he/she feels that it's a constructive deed in contributing to the playground of f2pers who can't even be bothered to heal you in a pug where you carry them.
  • orangenee#2931 orangenee Member Posts: 837 Arc User
    Bought the trait for my fed (much cheaper option than buying/gambling for the ship to get it, funny how that works) and it serves me well for the 10 minutes a day I spend on my fed.
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,587 Arc User
    In other words, you like to vape people in PVP and don't want to learn some new tricks to counter a tanky ship?


    ^^ This!
    3lsZz0w.jpg
  • kyle223catkyle223cat Member Posts: 584 Arc User
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    In other words, you like to vape people in PVP and don't want to learn some new tricks to counter a tanky ship?


    ^^ This!

    Pretty much. The trait didn't even change how survivable I was in PvP. In fact I think things got worse for survivability in PvP after the anniversary update. Needless to say I am taking a step away from PvP. There are other areas of this game that are much more enjoyable. Why play a game or a part of a game if it only frustrates you right?
    da84303d8bc4080b9860968f634f98682215bbe5.gifv
  • darkknightucfdarkknightucf Member Posts: 1,546 Media Corps
    patrickngo wrote: »
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    rattler2 wrote: »
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    Those 1v1 vape 100,000k in a volley runs do not come anywhere near killing a Eng pilot with a reasonable amount of defence while buffs are running.

    Wanted to highlight this bit here. WHILE BUFFS ARE RUNNING. That is assuming you have time to buff at all. Many Vapers out there have cloaks, so you don't even know WHEN to buff, and by the time they decloak and attack, its already too late to buff. Even with decent resists, you're gonna live maybe one or two seconds, and that is not enough time to hit all the "save my A**" buffs.

    Vapers are built for spike damage. They need all their buffs up to get maximum carnage in a single pass. And typically a vaper will also have a cloak in order to get that opening volley and catch their opponent off guard.
    Apart from you can hear the enemy coming into an attack. Even if I miss that sound it’s not possible to kill a decent eng within 1 or 2 seconds. If the eng is being vaped in seconds it’s because something is wrong with the build.

    I have had vape ships catch me unaware and I am still alive 15sceond later due to having a decent defence fitted. There are a number of ways to survive that initial few seconds and get chance to respond.

    To expand on your point, if I may??

    Doing a full-blown vape ship requires a lot of effort and time, and most of the time you can't count on 'teamwork' the way a DPS builder does. meaning that, assuming:

    1. you've got the right weapons
    2. you've got a good ship for the purpose
    3. you've loaded up all the right traits, have the right skills maxed
    4. have the right Bridge Officers with the right bridge officer skills...

    you're still not in 3-500K vape territory. to pull those off, you have to be aware of not only what YOU are doing, but what your TARGET is doing-you need to be positioned (if you have flanking bonus), you need to hit in the 'gap' if you're not running a sci, or you need to be positioned to activate and exploit your buffs, which means you need to be approaching at the right speed, at the right angle, with the right timing.

    Gaps in this case include immunities, which have returned to being chainable less than a year after the rebalance forced gaps, there is nothing quite like hitting everything else just right, and seeing "Immune" pop up.

    that means you need to learn to read the buff-bar on your opponent, and read it fast enough to actually USE the knowledge...and some things? don't show up until AFTER you've begun your run.

    Rattler's example demonstrates he's still new to this whole idea, and that his build is probably sub-optimal for any engagement that isn't a target shoot against relatively helpless, scripted NPCs.

    Players do whacky ****, even experienced players. I've humiliated PvE tacticals looking for a n00bstomp, simply by beating them twice using a lower-tier ship with poorer stats, because I KNOW players do whacky things, those fights generally result in a ragequit when I don't follow the script. (and what is the script? coming in straight and level so he can 'win' the engagement like a good little NPC.)

    when you hear that decloaking sound, you hit Tactical Team and floor the accelerator. When you get the purple clock face, you hit science team NOW, even if it means you stop firing, and you turn-because flanking, if he's anywhere but straight on your six, you're going to be taking either Stat-based flanking, or Spec based flanking. (often both), throwing into an angle and Tac TEam and you can survive that first hit, even when your hull is tinfoil, most of the time,and if you're at diagonals to him, his damage is spreading across TWO shield facings instead of boring through one.

    when I'm on a Bird of Prey, I'll ABORT a strike run if my target changes his positioning on my approach. it's only when your moves are PREDICTABLE that you're in serious danger from a Vape build.

    Why do you think people corkscrew up, up, up, up in Ker'rat and Arenas?? it's because they're trying NOT to present a straight-on shield facing.

    it's not that they're in love with getting the interrupt from reaching the end of the map, though it DOES present a 'wall' to help control the engagement-a predictable angle from which you can't be backstabbed.

    it's about positioning, situational awareness and knowing how to read those almost-microscopic icons, for the defense, it's about having the basics and stealing the initiative. YOu can hear a cloaker buff at 10k, before he decloaks even. I've used that to get targets to pop their team abilities early, so that I can hit them in the cooldown,or to see what abilities they're carrying, but that trick only works against experienced players who've turned the music and ambient noise down so they can HEAR (and with good headphones, you don't just hear it, you hear where it's coming from.)

    and really, after a while playing the game, the music gets damned repetitive, might as well mute it and gain an advantage in awareness.

    This is the best PvP breakdown I have read in ages. Thanks for this.
    @Odenknight | U.S.S. Challenger | "Remember The Seven"
    Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
    Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
    "A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
    I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
  • vampeiyrevampeiyre Member Posts: 633 Arc User
    The trait has already been fixed to work as intended, on top of being nerfed as well. It definitely works, and it is VERY noticeable in its effectiveness
    kyle223cat wrote: »
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    In other words, you like to vape people in PVP and don't want to learn some new tricks to counter a tanky ship?


    ^^ This!

    Pretty much. The trait didn't even change how survivable I was in PvP. In fact I think things got worse for survivability in PvP after the anniversary update. Needless to say I am taking a step away from PvP. There are other areas of this game that are much more enjoyable. Why play a game or a part of a game if it only frustrates you right?

    Really? You didn't find this trait a noticeable help in PVP, even post-nerf? Huh. For me, it definitely still counteracts how every RomTac in Pilot ships use Cold-hearted now.
    "I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome I am."
  • vampeiyrevampeiyre Member Posts: 633 Arc User
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    In other words, you like to vape people in PVP and don't want to learn some new tricks to counter a tanky ship?


    ^^ This!


    Exactly bruh, you need to worker harder than a 4 second face-roll on your keyboard for kills.
    "I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome I am."
  • kyle223catkyle223cat Member Posts: 584 Arc User
    edited February 2018
    > @vampeiyre said:
    > The trait has already been fixed to work as intended, on top of being nerfed as well. It definitely works, and it is VERY noticeable in its effectiveness kyle223cat wrote: »
    >
    > meimeitoo wrote: »
    >
    > davefenestrator wrote: »
    >
    > In other words, you like to vape people in PVP and don't want to learn some new tricks to counter a tanky ship?
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > ^^ This!
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Pretty much. The trait didn't even change how survivable I was in PvP. In fact I think things got worse for survivability in PvP after the anniversary update. Needless to say I am taking a step away from PvP. There are other areas of this game that are much more enjoyable. Why play a game or a part of a game if it only frustrates you right?
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Really? You didn't find this trait a noticeable help in PVP, even post-nerf? Huh. For me, it definitely still counteracts how every RomTac in Pilot ships use Cold-hearted now.

    It’s the same, if not a bit worse. 65-75% resists looks great on paper, but in reality it’s going to be much lower due to debuffs. I really don’t understand the interaction between damage resistance debuffs and damage resistance. I thought I did, but after seeing single debuffs cut my resistance in half, I know I don’t know. I have been playing as a healer for 5 years now and I firmly believe that my survivability, relatively to the PvP meta at the time, is at its lowest. This probably explains why I’m one of the only PvP healers left. Not trying to sound like a constant complainer, but that’s the way things are. This is why I’m stepping aside from PvP, at least for now.

    EDIT: Sorry for the glitched our quote, I think it’s because I posted this on my phone.
    da84303d8bc4080b9860968f634f98682215bbe5.gifv
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 57,969 Community Moderator
    Yea... phone quoting does that.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
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