There were some minor issues with the foundry when it came back, I'd suspect they're fixing those. in the order of seriousness we should suspect these reasons for the downtime 1. minor issues that came up with the recent auto-publish, 2. issues they weren't able to fix during the recent downtime, 2. unexpected issues that came up yesterday...100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000. just to spite us.
for to put it more clearly them closing the foundry just to spite us is so far down the list as to be essentially impossible.
There was the oddity with the editor being enabled up to a point. I was assuming that was just an innocuous oversight (things would get back to normal soon) but maybe it wasn't (and the downtime now is related.)
We'll see how things go. No word from Cryptic yet on social media but I did CC them on a "It's down again!" post (just in case it wasn't a known issue.)
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
I think the main issue here is that Cryptic hasn't announced any of the additional downtime, giving way too much fuel to doomsayers.
I don't need an exact time of completion but "Foundry is down so we can fix some issues" announcement preferbly here (but even social media would do) shouldn't be too much to ask.
Guys, take it easy. Criticizing our devs for not giving us updates is not a constructive use of downtime. You can be sure we'll ask Kael on Ten Forward Weekly (our usual source of news) tonight if there's an easy answer and a probable date. There might not be though, because the devs involved have many other responsibilities to attend to and it appears to be a busy time in Cryptic (perhaps more stressful too, thanks to recent PWE studio closures.)
However they and we might care about the Foundry (and they do), there are more pressing priorities (STO, the studio, staying healthy) and those don't always allow for all the niceties that we might prefer as consumers. But, that's not the kind of relationship Foundry authors have with Cryptic. We're also volunteers. Any support we get is a good thing and while we might like the situation be different in any number of ways we have to respect the limitations inherent to the Foundry (as with building in it.)
So in the meantime: relax. Find something fun to do (maybe a new community activity for the forums, ex. short story writing, Foundry-related art) and plan how you'll make the most of the Foundry when it comes back online.
Post edited by duncanidaho11 on
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
I'm not arguing with you there Duncan, but the fact remains, it's a low priority area of the game and I really don't think they realise how important it is to many players, not just the authors but also the regular gamers.
Cryptic knows, there's no doubt about that. Every review we leave and every comment we make here is publicly available. They can see what authors do and how players respond. They've played and performed missions, watched and been on the Foundry Roundtable, and met with Foundry authors at STLV. They understand how important the Foundry is for some people but that doesn't mean that they have the ability, given all their constraints, to provide us with everything we could ask for as Foundry authors or players.
That's not a factor of not caring about the Foundry or not appreciating its community. This is priorities playing out in video game development. We may not always agree with what those are, being Foundry authors, but Cryptic has to take a more objective approach in evaluating what gets dev time and when. The Foundry is supported, but the degree of that support is calibrated against what Cryptic can afford to divert from the main game. That isn't much, but the individual efforts of a few devs tip the balance beyond what can be budgeted because they know how much the Foundry can mean to people.
If a dev has the time for a status update, the gesture is always appreciated. But what they do is already more than we can ask for. So, in approaching downtime we should probably just take things as they are and move onto with something we can do in the meantime. If we know what's going on, great. If not, then no worries. What decides whether this is a fun interlude (in spite of the situation) or a long slog is simply how we chose to tackle it (as with building missions.)
I'm a newbie player and I got to play one of these before it went down. From what I've read this isn't a rare issue either.
This kind of downtime is rare (veteran author). At the start of the season the Foundry is often taken off line because big changes in code can potentially cause big glitches for the Foundry. Most of the time though things are perfectly fine and the Foundry comes back in stages to allow authors to test their missions and the Foundry system.
The only exceptions in recent memory to the smooth return of the Foundry have been Lighting 2.0 (which was blinding us across all exterior ground maps. That was a big problem to solve) and whatever's happening with publishing now.
Post edited by duncanidaho11 on
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
I'm a newbie player and I got to play one of these before it went down. From what I've read this isn't a rare issue either.
yes and no. Downtime after a major patch isn't rare, in fact it is typical and to be expected, however the current downtime is very much atypically long.
For the whole time the Foundry has been up IIRC there has been downtime of this length maybe once or twice before and it's always been due to a major problem.
I'd remove the "editor down for 5 weeks and counting" part from the title, trying to shame the devs won't bring the editor back any faster and anyone who uses the editor knowns perfectly well how long it's been down.
That part serves no one, I'm sure the devs are trying to bring the Foudry back as fast as they can trying to shame them will not bring it it back any faster (yes I've said it twice already but it's something that should be repeated), information in that part is known to those for who it's relevant (aka the Devs and Foundry authors) and others don't need to know that.
It just makes us seem ungrateful of the time the developers have put into the foundry, sometimes out of their free time.
I'd remove the "editor down for 5 weeks and counting" part from the title, trying to shame the devs won't bring the editor back any faster and anyone who uses the editor knowns perfectly well how long it's been down.
That part serves no one, I'm sure the devs are trying to bring the Foudry back as fast as they can trying to shame them will not bring it it back any faster (yes I've said it twice already but it's something that should be repeated), information in that part is known to those for who it's relevant (aka the Devs and Foundry authors) and others don't need to know that.
It just makes us seem ungrateful of the time the developers have put into the foundry, sometimes out of their free time.
I get what you're saying and I agree to some extent, however, this is a business they are running is it not? One of the reasons I pay many hundreds of pounds, even thousands, yes that much, into this game per year is to gain enjoyment from it and a big part of that for me personally is the foundry. If it is removed for whatever reason without explanation then I feel I am being somewhat short changed. If the foundry wasn't part of this game I think it would have lost it's appeal a long time ago for me and hence I would be very likely to have spent less, perhaps considerably less. As this is my thread voicing my opinion, I don't feel the need to change anything, although I did consider it after what you wrote.
So, it's not about shaming per se, it's more about letting everyone know how long it has been down, because that length of time clearly highlights the lack of priority this system has in the game for them. Imagine if the main game had gone down, it would be back in hours, not days and certainly not many weeks. The title represents my frustration, if someone feels shame then so be it.
be patient and professional about it. Insulting those who take time from their personal life to work on the foundry is not productive behaviour. And NO shaming is exactly what you're doing, you're essentially saying "how dare you have personal life instead of working on what I want do on my freetime!!" you can't you see how selfish that sounds?!.
You're not gonna change the feelings of Cryptics excutives with a forum post, it's not that Kael, Zero and who ever else works on the foundry doesn't want to work more on it but they other duties within the company duties they cannot choose to ignore in favor of the Foundry.
there's ways to express options and the passive-aggressive shaming you're doing is just about the worst and most unproductive way of doing.
How you say things matter and as I said before there's ways of doing. Do you really think that I don't want this fixed ASAP!?
Of course I do but I also know that yelling at and insulting (or didn't you notice that you're so not covertly implying that they could bring the foundry up any time but don't just to spite us) those who are trying to help will not help.
They prefer to keep their jobs so them going to blackmail their bosses to give the Foundry more resources won't happen no matter how much you wish they would. Before you reply read what Duncan posted about priorities, think carefully about what he said and do remember that foundry authors are a small portion of the overall playerbase.
EDIT:trying to bully those developers who take time from their personal lifes to work on the foundry will only result on those developers stopping, it won't result in cryptic diverting more resources into the foundry.
The 'shame' aspect of it may give leverage to those at Cryptic who keep saying to their bosses that this needs to be sorted now, people are getting pissed about it.
You will not change the economic realities of STO by leveraging your funding of the game (which in fairness is for monetized content. The Foundry is a glorious freebie,) or your frustrations. This is equivalent to "fix this specific bug or I'll stop buying zen." No dev or boss is going to respond to that post because it doesn't make a systematic difference. It's more or less just general forum background noise. What the threat does do is set yourself up with an untenable position that pits you in opposition against other community members who prefer that role (ie. friendly comrade) as opposed to aggrieved consumer (which is an entirely different beast and one that can only speak for itself.)
This situation is what it is. I recommend that you deal with it in a more constructive way else you're just going to alienate your fellow Foundry authors. If you want to help improve the Foundry community, this isn't how to go about a thread. Just stick to reporting updates and look for something else to fill time with. Everything is going to be fine.
Post edited by duncanidaho11 on
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
I don't normally post, as is the habit of most who read these forums, but I just had to when I saw what was going on here.
Matt you are 100% right, and your frustration is warranted. I only play Sto for the Foundry anymore; the game itself has let me down as a Star Trek fan not to mention as a gamer. If there were another place to go for what the Foundry offers, I'd go there.
And Duncan - Let's not "alienate" one for speaking one's mind, and the truth in this case.
What you 2 don't seem to get that there's literally no indications what so ever that there's some secret reserve of money and resources Cryptic could put into the Foundry, but won't out of spite as you keep implying , putting more resources into the Foundry means it would have to be diverted from somewhere else.
If you truly want for Cryptic to divert resources into the Foundry then show them there's a signifigantly large part of the playerbase that want that for it to financially viable for them to do so, don't just assume just because YOU feel a certain way it's the norm. Throwing a temper tantrum in the forums won't fix a thing and it never will. Most of the people I play with have never even tried the foundry and some are outright against it.
If I am unhappy with a service I can choose to withdraw my funding of that service until I am happy with it again, that is neither extortion or blackmail.
In consumer terms it is if you want that your action with negative repercussions to affect specific change. Any consumer can choose to withhold funds, as a free choice in economics, but to make it part of an argument (which overstates the importance of you as an individual consumer) is overstepping things.
I read and understand your point. Saying otherwise is disrespectful to me (a fellow author) and to continue berating Cryptic over their "terrible" support for the Foundry (and if they can't dedicate staff then they shouldn't bother at all) is very disrespectful to the devs who care so much about it that they're willing to donate their free time to the cause (just as we do when building missions. Note that.) You may want things to be otherwise, but they're not and can't be made otherwise through the simple force of persuasive reasoning (because no argument you can choose to make will completely overwrite the hard limits the Foundry has always had to deal with as simply being "wrong." To affect change, you have to make conscious arguments with those limits accepted and in mind.)
Again, I have to recommend you find something else to do with downtime. This particular conversation is not helping to improve the Foundry community and the prospects are low indeed that it will change minds at the very top of Cryptic. You're just pushing people away in venting your frustrations in this way. That's why I said "find a more constructive use of downtime." That energy can be put into creative outlets for better effect. For examples: writing. Though styles differ, it's not often that a Foundry mission has so long a planning phase. We can use that time to refine ideas through an ever-better outline and write optional dialog that we might not be able to dedicate time to in building everything else for a mission.
If you can't do this, then just take a break. Use the time to refocus yourself and regain perspective. In any case, you can put this time to good use if you so chose. It's not all bad, and everything will be fine. This is not DOOOOOOOOOOOM!
And Duncan - Let's not "alienate" one for speaking one's mind, and the truth in this case.
I'm letting Matt know what the context of the situation is. He may feel one way but if he wants to affect positive change then he needs to think a bit harder on what the objective reality (not the self-defined truth) of the situation is. Consider the ideas put forth and be willing to back off from a plan of attack if it has no real chance of success and very negative consequences with respect to fellow authors in any case.
Speaking one's mind is one thing but to expect to do so without opposition (when the situation warrants it) is simply not how a discussion works. And to have a chance at influencing Cryptic's decision making, he needs to be willing to have a discussion with them that deals directly with the practical dev limits of the Foundry and of Cryptic studios. Soap box speeches in a public forum (in the original sense) don't change opinions. They simply reinforce one's own.
So let's make this suggestion: if you want to change minds at the top write a Foundry development proposal and submit it to Kael. Explain in very clear, professional, and economically relevant terms what the benefits will realistically be in supporting the Foundry more. Include specific suggestions for how the Foundry can be improved, conscious of the cost to dev time and priorities that Cryptic has to make as a developer (on a much wider game). And do this without falling back on "what do I pay you guys for?" or "you're wrong to..." and similar indignant language (as that's a non-starter.) When done, you can run this by other community members (such as Starbase UGC and the Foundry Roundtable, we've worked at this idea before) to refine ideas, put them into an appropriate format, and invite additional feedback that reflects the interests of the Foundry community (as a whole.)
If the ideas work, then they'll work. If not, then you know that this is how things are. Either way, it sidesteps this problem of shouting at (and shouting down) people in and around the Foundry community.
Post edited by duncanidaho11 on
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Comments
> The foundry is currently down at 20:00 GMT 6th November 2017. No missions are available.
Again? TRIBBLE
for to put it more clearly them closing the foundry just to spite us is so far down the list as to be essentially impossible.
We'll see how things go. No word from Cryptic yet on social media but I did CC them on a "It's down again!" post (just in case it wasn't a known issue.)
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
I don't need an exact time of completion but "Foundry is down so we can fix some issues" announcement preferbly here (but even social media would do) shouldn't be too much to ask.
Guys, take it easy. Criticizing our devs for not giving us updates is not a constructive use of downtime. You can be sure we'll ask Kael on Ten Forward Weekly (our usual source of news) tonight if there's an easy answer and a probable date. There might not be though, because the devs involved have many other responsibilities to attend to and it appears to be a busy time in Cryptic (perhaps more stressful too, thanks to recent PWE studio closures.)
However they and we might care about the Foundry (and they do), there are more pressing priorities (STO, the studio, staying healthy) and those don't always allow for all the niceties that we might prefer as consumers. But, that's not the kind of relationship Foundry authors have with Cryptic. We're also volunteers. Any support we get is a good thing and while we might like the situation be different in any number of ways we have to respect the limitations inherent to the Foundry (as with building in it.)
So in the meantime: relax. Find something fun to do (maybe a new community activity for the forums, ex. short story writing, Foundry-related art) and plan how you'll make the most of the Foundry when it comes back online.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Cryptic knows, there's no doubt about that. Every review we leave and every comment we make here is publicly available. They can see what authors do and how players respond. They've played and performed missions, watched and been on the Foundry Roundtable, and met with Foundry authors at STLV. They understand how important the Foundry is for some people but that doesn't mean that they have the ability, given all their constraints, to provide us with everything we could ask for as Foundry authors or players.
That's not a factor of not caring about the Foundry or not appreciating its community. This is priorities playing out in video game development. We may not always agree with what those are, being Foundry authors, but Cryptic has to take a more objective approach in evaluating what gets dev time and when. The Foundry is supported, but the degree of that support is calibrated against what Cryptic can afford to divert from the main game. That isn't much, but the individual efforts of a few devs tip the balance beyond what can be budgeted because they know how much the Foundry can mean to people.
If a dev has the time for a status update, the gesture is always appreciated. But what they do is already more than we can ask for. So, in approaching downtime we should probably just take things as they are and move onto with something we can do in the meantime. If we know what's going on, great. If not, then no worries. What decides whether this is a fun interlude (in spite of the situation) or a long slog is simply how we chose to tackle it (as with building missions.)
This kind of downtime is rare (veteran author). At the start of the season the Foundry is often taken off line because big changes in code can potentially cause big glitches for the Foundry. Most of the time though things are perfectly fine and the Foundry comes back in stages to allow authors to test their missions and the Foundry system.
The only exceptions in recent memory to the smooth return of the Foundry have been Lighting 2.0 (which was blinding us across all exterior ground maps. That was a big problem to solve) and whatever's happening with publishing now.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
yes and no. Downtime after a major patch isn't rare, in fact it is typical and to be expected, however the current downtime is very much atypically long.
For the whole time the Foundry has been up IIRC there has been downtime of this length maybe once or twice before and it's always been due to a major problem.
That part serves no one, I'm sure the devs are trying to bring the Foudry back as fast as they can trying to shame them will not bring it it back any faster (yes I've said it twice already but it's something that should be repeated), information in that part is known to those for who it's relevant (aka the Devs and Foundry authors) and others don't need to know that.
It just makes us seem ungrateful of the time the developers have put into the foundry, sometimes out of their free time.
You're not gonna change the feelings of Cryptics excutives with a forum post, it's not that Kael, Zero and who ever else works on the foundry doesn't want to work more on it but they other duties within the company duties they cannot choose to ignore in favor of the Foundry.
there's ways to express options and the passive-aggressive shaming you're doing is just about the worst and most unproductive way of doing.
Of course I do but I also know that yelling at and insulting (or didn't you notice that you're so not covertly implying that they could bring the foundry up any time but don't just to spite us) those who are trying to help will not help.
They prefer to keep their jobs so them going to blackmail their bosses to give the Foundry more resources won't happen no matter how much you wish they would. Before you reply read what Duncan posted about priorities, think carefully about what he said and do remember that foundry authors are a small portion of the overall playerbase.
EDIT:trying to bully those developers who take time from their personal lifes to work on the foundry will only result on those developers stopping, it won't result in cryptic diverting more resources into the foundry.
You will not change the economic realities of STO by leveraging your funding of the game (which in fairness is for monetized content. The Foundry is a glorious freebie,) or your frustrations. This is equivalent to "fix this specific bug or I'll stop buying zen." No dev or boss is going to respond to that post because it doesn't make a systematic difference. It's more or less just general forum background noise. What the threat does do is set yourself up with an untenable position that pits you in opposition against other community members who prefer that role (ie. friendly comrade) as opposed to aggrieved consumer (which is an entirely different beast and one that can only speak for itself.)
This situation is what it is. I recommend that you deal with it in a more constructive way else you're just going to alienate your fellow Foundry authors. If you want to help improve the Foundry community, this isn't how to go about a thread. Just stick to reporting updates and look for something else to fill time with. Everything is going to be fine.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Matt you are 100% right, and your frustration is warranted. I only play Sto for the Foundry anymore; the game itself has let me down as a Star Trek fan not to mention as a gamer. If there were another place to go for what the Foundry offers, I'd go there.
And Duncan - Let's not "alienate" one for speaking one's mind, and the truth in this case.
If you truly want for Cryptic to divert resources into the Foundry then show them there's a signifigantly large part of the playerbase that want that for it to financially viable for them to do so, don't just assume just because YOU feel a certain way it's the norm. Throwing a temper tantrum in the forums won't fix a thing and it never will. Most of the people I play with have never even tried the foundry and some are outright against it.
In consumer terms it is if you want that your action with negative repercussions to affect specific change. Any consumer can choose to withhold funds, as a free choice in economics, but to make it part of an argument (which overstates the importance of you as an individual consumer) is overstepping things.
I read and understand your point. Saying otherwise is disrespectful to me (a fellow author) and to continue berating Cryptic over their "terrible" support for the Foundry (and if they can't dedicate staff then they shouldn't bother at all) is very disrespectful to the devs who care so much about it that they're willing to donate their free time to the cause (just as we do when building missions. Note that.) You may want things to be otherwise, but they're not and can't be made otherwise through the simple force of persuasive reasoning (because no argument you can choose to make will completely overwrite the hard limits the Foundry has always had to deal with as simply being "wrong." To affect change, you have to make conscious arguments with those limits accepted and in mind.)
Again, I have to recommend you find something else to do with downtime. This particular conversation is not helping to improve the Foundry community and the prospects are low indeed that it will change minds at the very top of Cryptic. You're just pushing people away in venting your frustrations in this way. That's why I said "find a more constructive use of downtime." That energy can be put into creative outlets for better effect. For examples: writing. Though styles differ, it's not often that a Foundry mission has so long a planning phase. We can use that time to refine ideas through an ever-better outline and write optional dialog that we might not be able to dedicate time to in building everything else for a mission.
If you can't do this, then just take a break. Use the time to refocus yourself and regain perspective. In any case, you can put this time to good use if you so chose. It's not all bad, and everything will be fine. This is not DOOOOOOOOOOOM!
I'm letting Matt know what the context of the situation is. He may feel one way but if he wants to affect positive change then he needs to think a bit harder on what the objective reality (not the self-defined truth) of the situation is. Consider the ideas put forth and be willing to back off from a plan of attack if it has no real chance of success and very negative consequences with respect to fellow authors in any case.
Speaking one's mind is one thing but to expect to do so without opposition (when the situation warrants it) is simply not how a discussion works. And to have a chance at influencing Cryptic's decision making, he needs to be willing to have a discussion with them that deals directly with the practical dev limits of the Foundry and of Cryptic studios. Soap box speeches in a public forum (in the original sense) don't change opinions. They simply reinforce one's own.
So let's make this suggestion: if you want to change minds at the top write a Foundry development proposal and submit it to Kael. Explain in very clear, professional, and economically relevant terms what the benefits will realistically be in supporting the Foundry more. Include specific suggestions for how the Foundry can be improved, conscious of the cost to dev time and priorities that Cryptic has to make as a developer (on a much wider game). And do this without falling back on "what do I pay you guys for?" or "you're wrong to..." and similar indignant language (as that's a non-starter.) When done, you can run this by other community members (such as Starbase UGC and the Foundry Roundtable, we've worked at this idea before) to refine ideas, put them into an appropriate format, and invite additional feedback that reflects the interests of the Foundry community (as a whole.)
If the ideas work, then they'll work. If not, then you know that this is how things are. Either way, it sidesteps this problem of shouting at (and shouting down) people in and around the Foundry community.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!