See sto doesnt even have the most rudimentary pvp mechanics, and never will.
It is mediocre and drags down the overall quality of the game, it needs to go.
Could you elaborate and provide some details on these missing pvp mechanics? I don't have the experience you do in this area.
How could something that was so much fun as an endeavor be dragging down the overall quality of the game?
I would have thought variety in a game would be a good thing. Players need more choices now that many of the PvE queues are so slow.
Are additional mini-games perhaps the answer if PvP needs to go? Maybe there could be a competitive aspect added to them (i.e. highest score on a team, first to complete, etc) ?
Looting people you kill is the fundamental pvp mechanic.
I mentioned this in my earlier posts. A "trophy" drop of some sort one could exchange for items. Since all of the gear is Bind on Equip. They would have to recode all that to be able to drop. They could add in the RNG loot drops. But do you really want to pick up lock boxes from a PvP fight?
If PvP pays too well folks will set up farming operations based on fake PvP. Optimized fake PvP involves designated winners and losers, and a simple match choreography to maximize yields.
Upping PvP rewards or making them too useful is a recipe for disaster.
They just balanced the game for pvp with the miracle tree, released pvp ships, and not too long ago even a pvp reputation. So it's pretty much gonna stay there until doomsday.
See sto doesnt even have the most rudimentary pvp mechanics, and never will.
It is mediocre and drags down the overall quality of the game, it needs to go.
Could you elaborate and provide some details on these missing pvp mechanics? I don't have the experience you do in this area.
How could something that was so much fun as an endeavor be dragging down the overall quality of the game?
I would have thought variety in a game would be a good thing. Players need more choices now that many of the PvE queues are so slow.
Are additional mini-games perhaps the answer if PvP needs to go? Maybe there could be a competitive aspect added to them (i.e. highest score on a team, first to complete, etc) ?
Looting people you kill is the fundamental pvp mechanic.
I mentioned this in my earlier posts. A "trophy" drop of some sort one could exchange for items. Since all of the gear is Bind on Equip. They would have to recode all that to be able to drop. They could add in the RNG loot drops. But do you really want to pick up lock boxes from a PvP fight?
It only works when its zero-sum. What the winner gains is lost by the loser. It gives it intrinsic balance (you want to be stronger? you have to risk losing better stuff) and absolutely prevents any form of gaming the system.
It will never, ever happen in sto, ever.
PvP is irredeemably inferior to the rest of the content and needs to be removed to improve the overall quality of the game. Not later, now.
See sto doesnt even have the most rudimentary pvp mechanics, and never will.
It is mediocre and drags down the overall quality of the game, it needs to go.
Could you elaborate and provide some details on these missing pvp mechanics? I don't have the experience you do in this area.
How could something that was so much fun as an endeavor be dragging down the overall quality of the game?
I would have thought variety in a game would be a good thing. Players need more choices now that many of the PvE queues are so slow.
Are additional mini-games perhaps the answer if PvP needs to go? Maybe there could be a competitive aspect added to them (i.e. highest score on a team, first to complete, etc) ?
Looting people you kill is the fundamental pvp mechanic.
I mentioned this in my earlier posts. A "trophy" drop of some sort one could exchange for items. Since all of the gear is Bind on Equip. They would have to recode all that to be able to drop. They could add in the RNG loot drops. But do you really want to pick up lock boxes from a PvP fight?
It only works when its zero-sum. What the winner gains is lost by the loser. It gives it intrinsic balance (you want to be stronger? you have to risk losing better stuff) and absolutely prevents any form of gaming the system.
It will never, ever happen in sto, ever.
PvP is irredeemably inferior to the rest of the content and needs to be removed to improve the overall quality of the game. Not later, now.
The only thing in PvP that is inferior to the rest of the game, is the reward. While there are things they could do to balance this out a bit better. For example, disabling all click-to-use consoles(or as I call them, the click-to-save-your-rear consoles).
Other than the reward, the only thing inferior is the glass cannon build used in PvE is worthless. Remember, the NPC's are designed to die, that's their whole purpose. The NPCs aren't designed around survival. Player's on the other hand can make a build to increase their ability to survive.
But this is a build difference, which places it on the player to figure out. Even if the Dev's balance this out more, which, they're working on. Evidenced by the Balancing patch, skill changes, and Competitive Rep. It still on the player to figure out, or find, a build for PvP.
If you want to look at how things are inferior to one another. The learning curve for PvE is small, and I mean small, as is doesn't really exist. The learning curve for PvP is high, because there is a lot that goes in to it. So the learning curve for PvE is inferior to the leaning curve of PvP. This is true for any game. This is to be expected, since you're not facing a scripted NPC, you're facing another person. That is the main difference between PvP in STO and other games. Other games the PvE and PvP learning curves are roughly the same, because everyone has the same skill set. In STO there are far more skills and traits available to the player. Meaning everyone is not using the same skill set.
See sto doesnt even have the most rudimentary pvp mechanics, and never will.
It is mediocre and drags down the overall quality of the game, it needs to go.
Could you elaborate and provide some details on these missing pvp mechanics? I don't have the experience you do in this area.
How could something that was so much fun as an endeavor be dragging down the overall quality of the game?
I would have thought variety in a game would be a good thing. Players need more choices now that many of the PvE queues are so slow.
Are additional mini-games perhaps the answer if PvP needs to go? Maybe there could be a competitive aspect added to them (i.e. highest score on a team, first to complete, etc) ?
Looting people you kill is the fundamental pvp mechanic.
I mentioned this in my earlier posts. A "trophy" drop of some sort one could exchange for items. Since all of the gear is Bind on Equip. They would have to recode all that to be able to drop. They could add in the RNG loot drops. But do you really want to pick up lock boxes from a PvP fight?
It only works when its zero-sum. What the winner gains is lost by the loser. It gives it intrinsic balance (you want to be stronger? you have to risk losing better stuff) and absolutely prevents any form of gaming the system.
It will never, ever happen in sto, ever.
PvP is irredeemably inferior to the rest of the content and needs to be removed to improve the overall quality of the game. Not later, now.
I'm trying to figure out where you're getting the idea that in combat, there's anything really gained by the winner-in most RL conflicts, the 'winner' is merely the side that suffered LESS damage. Battlefields don't generally result in stronger winners, they result in less-weakened winners (and not always that-sometimes you can be undone by your victory, ask Pyrrhus about that.)
if anything, installing a need to use repair mechanics after every disable (kill) and charging for the parts would be more accurate design than "hawt hawt lootz".
I mean, it's not like an enemy in a science fiction setting is walking around with a bag of gold that can spill out if you knock him down, or equipment that won't be damaged if the incoming fire is enough to disable him or his forces. Significant materiel captures on the battlefield that don't require days to weeks of repair only happen when one side pre-emptively surrenders to the other, or leaves large caches of equipment untended and unguarded.
basically, anything that hits a device like a starship hard enough to disable it into being unable to fight back, will also likely destroy anything useable on it.
the "lootbag" mechanic only works in Medieval settings and bubblegum games, even Battletech started accounting for the need to repair your salvage with mechanics determining by random factors whether you've got a good, working bit of kit, or you have to replace most of it because it's unreliable due to damage or overuse.
which, tbh, could tie nicely into the crafting mechanics. Capture a console or piece of equipment, you still have to take it in and repair it before you can use it, and it doesn't necessarily mean it'll work properly if it's from the wrong (not your) tech base.
They could probably just use the same RNG they use for upgrade path, but in this case, your captured lootz could DROP from epic to white quality, for example, with an average result of degraded or blue quality, or even a lowering of mark in addition.
Let's be honest, extending the injury system to apply to more things and upping the cost would be silly. Injuries in STO are cleared away with the greatest of ease and it's highly doubtful implementing a time-gated repair mechanic would matter to folks who game it properly. STO just isn't equipped to handle "realistic" damage, the mechanics it uses to simulate damage are really only punishing to folks who don't understand them.
How does making PvP more complicated, and more costly to play make it more appealing to folks who don't want to play it now? The gap between good and mediocre players would increase substantially if such a punishment system were to be imposed on the mediocre players.
If we are going to go down the rabbit hole of "when your ship is destroyed it is gone" then people would have to buy new ships when their ships got destroyed or start over new characters when they died. It's unhelpful.
PvP ought to be removed completely, but a very generous compromise would be to put a big disclaimer on it that said "PvP is no longer supported" and to forbid posts on the forums discussion game changes related to pvp.
If PvP wasn't supported. Then CrypticSpartan would not have a job. So again, another useless point from you.
Vandalism? Okay, thats a rather hilarious hot take.
Frankly the balance pass was needed. Both in terms of PvP AND PvP. Everything was (and still is) immensely easy.
I'm hardly a top DPS player, but even after the FAW nerf I'm still FAWing things to death with ease. Meanwhile the people who don't gear themselves for DPS channel runs were barely affected.
No good has ever come from them trying to support pvp, time and time again it has lead to vandalism of abilities and unpopular changes that are bad for the game.
In a sane world it would be removed altogether to improve the overall quality of the game, as they've done with other substandard content, but I would be happy with them dropping any support for it and forbidding posts about it on the forums.
That would be the same as NIntendo did when they banned ANYONE who mentions project M on there forums, when Project M was a improvement on Super Smash Bro Brawl.
Epic while I understand your feelings once again there are people who enjoy PVP in the unbalanced state it is in. I like it, sure in my fleet there were unspoken rules regarding pvp such as no FbP when it was Op but now we don't since you have to have alot of epg to actually have it be effective. On Ps4 players ask people to que up for space pvp in Zone chat and skilled players are well known on Ps4 by name. There are those who don't pvp and just do pve also there are those who have never tried it and once they do they are hooked. As Trennan stated the learning curve for pvp is HUGE, I have been playing sto since 2011 and Im still learning new abilities traits and skills that work and interact with each other in different ways. So while i respect the opinion you are entitled to Epic your comments are negative and unconstructive please let it rest.
No good has ever come from them trying to support pvp, time and time again it has lead to vandalism of abilities and unpopular changes that are bad for the game.
In a sane world it would be removed altogether to improve the overall quality of the game, as they've done with other substandard content, but I would be happy with them dropping any support for it and forbidding posts about it on the forums.
That is true of any game. But for STO even more so. In this case you have to respect CrypticSpartan. Instead of standard skill set, he has to look at the hundred of skills and abilities we have, and how they interact with each other. It's a rather daunting task. So props to him for hanging in there.
As far as the skill changes go for STO, PvP has basically nothing to do with it, since it is a very small community. All the skill balancing and changes we receive are from the PvE side of it. So all you're unpopular changes have not been from PvP.
Add to this, that Gozer, the developer that built the PvP system, left Cryptic and didn't leave any information on his work. Between that time and now, there have been two other dev's that have worked on PvP. Both of which have left Cryptic amicably. I'd wager this was a mix of the overblown power creep and a lack of information on how to work with the PvP system. Now we have CrypticSpartan working on it. He hasn't given up and we're seeing things turn up that actually improve PvP. Albeit they they still have a ways to go, to overcome the years of neglect that PvP has gotten. But for skill changes in general, PvP in STO is not to blame for it. As I said, these changes come from the PvE side of it.
The only thing that was abused in PvP use to be the reward. That was back when it rewarded choice marks. Which, well we can see what happened there.
The PvP Endeavor pointed out, people will do it, if there is a decent enough reward for it. Currently PvP doesn't have a reward worth bothering with. It also got people to PvP, some just went for the reward, as you can see from the post about it. Some discovered that PvP can be fun, as long as you avoid the well geared ones that tend to give PvP a bad name. This was a good way fro Cryptic to get a good look at PvP as a whole.
Now, with the fact the Endeavor system includes PvP, and that the Competitive maps have both PvE and PvP elements. Add these with the new Miracle Worker specialization, Competitive Reputation Gear, and colony gear, all of which keep survivability in mind, says that they support PvP and that is it not going to be removed from the game. Instead they've slowly been working toward the very opposite. Only the blind would not see this.
Take a moment to think about the previous two paragraphs. Then look to summer of 2018 when we get the Victory Is Life expansion. While you're looking at that take a moment to realize, we will get that expansion about the same time as fleets should be finishing up the Tier 5 colony. That's 7 months of S14, and all they have to work on is finishing up the New Frontiers arc and anything they add for the colony. Now with that in mind, think about the very name of the next expansion, "Victory Is Life." This is an optimal time to introduce new things for PvP, perhaps even a rework of the older assets for it as well. Now, I'm not saying the expansion will be PvP focused, just that it's an optimal time to release new things for it. This is just my thoughts on it though.
But with what they have done so far. It's safe to say, you can keep repeating yourself about them dropping PvP all you want. The evidence that is provided in-game states, its not going to happen.
The main thing that people get wrong, is the Star Trek is PvP oriented. Just look at all the conflict between the factions in the shows and movies. One of the main premises that Star Trek is overcoming adversity. Rising up to the challenge, so to speak. A lot of that has been done in a very violent manner. The thing here is, when it comes to game, people don't even see "factions" when it comes to NPCs. All they see is loot and accolades. When they're confronted with another player, they suddenly see another faction. This will vary per player and what their perspective of it is.
Now with the current Alliance, I can see where they might get turned off by PvP. The factions are no longer at war with each other. However, if you look at it as an Alliance training simulation, it becomes viable to use. The only thing missing is a reward for doing it. Which a decent reward is one of the main things every post about PvP stresses.
To be fair I have one bad thing to say about PvP in STO, namely recurring petty pre-groups. These "pro" losers take pleasure in ganging on total noobs who barely play the game. They also lack the "the guts" to queue up in a pug without their butt-buddies to the aid. There's no challenge in that, and it's not fun. Sadly this can't be changed, and is a common problem in most MMO's.
But aside from that, the balance is still OK right now, and I have no problems holding my own in a fight. Part of the problem is just these aforementioned "veterans" preying on rookies and keeping them off the arena for good.
Having said, I think we're making PvP in STO to be too much of a big deal as well. Especially considering the fact that STO, although a great MMO, is an outdated game, and we make too much drama over it. I'm content to have PvP as a minor part of the game as end-game material for when I'm in the mood to fight something more "active" than zombified NPC's.
We finally got the balance that was needed to make PvE less dps-absurd and PvP to be at least OK to the best of the dev's abilities. So I think everything is fine just the way it is (the last thing I expect is perfection from Cryptic), because I repeat, this is an outdated game, and might add it's just a video-game, and not some religion or "Second-Life" as some make it out to be in the forum-zoo.
Oh and don't get me started on "canon" and faction "stories" on why there's a reason to PvP. I PvP purely as if I would play Counter-Strike. I don't need a damn backstory or roleplay to do it. I just get in there and shoot for mindless fun.
Comments
I mentioned this in my earlier posts. A "trophy" drop of some sort one could exchange for items. Since all of the gear is Bind on Equip. They would have to recode all that to be able to drop. They could add in the RNG loot drops. But do you really want to pick up lock boxes from a PvP fight?
Upping PvP rewards or making them too useful is a recipe for disaster.
Comments moderated out. - BMR
You're starting to sound repetitive, again.
The only thing in PvP that is inferior to the rest of the game, is the reward. While there are things they could do to balance this out a bit better. For example, disabling all click-to-use consoles(or as I call them, the click-to-save-your-rear consoles).
Other than the reward, the only thing inferior is the glass cannon build used in PvE is worthless. Remember, the NPC's are designed to die, that's their whole purpose. The NPCs aren't designed around survival. Player's on the other hand can make a build to increase their ability to survive.
But this is a build difference, which places it on the player to figure out. Even if the Dev's balance this out more, which, they're working on. Evidenced by the Balancing patch, skill changes, and Competitive Rep. It still on the player to figure out, or find, a build for PvP.
If you want to look at how things are inferior to one another. The learning curve for PvE is small, and I mean small, as is doesn't really exist. The learning curve for PvP is high, because there is a lot that goes in to it. So the learning curve for PvE is inferior to the leaning curve of PvP. This is true for any game. This is to be expected, since you're not facing a scripted NPC, you're facing another person. That is the main difference between PvP in STO and other games. Other games the PvE and PvP learning curves are roughly the same, because everyone has the same skill set. In STO there are far more skills and traits available to the player. Meaning everyone is not using the same skill set.
Let's be honest, extending the injury system to apply to more things and upping the cost would be silly. Injuries in STO are cleared away with the greatest of ease and it's highly doubtful implementing a time-gated repair mechanic would matter to folks who game it properly. STO just isn't equipped to handle "realistic" damage, the mechanics it uses to simulate damage are really only punishing to folks who don't understand them.
How does making PvP more complicated, and more costly to play make it more appealing to folks who don't want to play it now? The gap between good and mediocre players would increase substantially if such a punishment system were to be imposed on the mediocre players.
If PvP wasn't supported. Then CrypticSpartan would not have a job. So again, another useless point from you.
Frankly the balance pass was needed. Both in terms of PvP AND PvP. Everything was (and still is) immensely easy.
I'm hardly a top DPS player, but even after the FAW nerf I'm still FAWing things to death with ease. Meanwhile the people who don't gear themselves for DPS channel runs were barely affected.
Daizen - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
Selia - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
That would be the same as NIntendo did when they banned ANYONE who mentions project M on there forums, when Project M was a improvement on Super Smash Bro Brawl.
Epic while I understand your feelings once again there are people who enjoy PVP in the unbalanced state it is in. I like it, sure in my fleet there were unspoken rules regarding pvp such as no FbP when it was Op but now we don't since you have to have alot of epg to actually have it be effective. On Ps4 players ask people to que up for space pvp in Zone chat and skilled players are well known on Ps4 by name. There are those who don't pvp and just do pve also there are those who have never tried it and once they do they are hooked. As Trennan stated the learning curve for pvp is HUGE, I have been playing sto since 2011 and Im still learning new abilities traits and skills that work and interact with each other in different ways. So while i respect the opinion you are entitled to Epic your comments are negative and unconstructive please let it rest.
That is true of any game. But for STO even more so. In this case you have to respect CrypticSpartan. Instead of standard skill set, he has to look at the hundred of skills and abilities we have, and how they interact with each other. It's a rather daunting task. So props to him for hanging in there.
As far as the skill changes go for STO, PvP has basically nothing to do with it, since it is a very small community. All the skill balancing and changes we receive are from the PvE side of it. So all you're unpopular changes have not been from PvP.
Add to this, that Gozer, the developer that built the PvP system, left Cryptic and didn't leave any information on his work. Between that time and now, there have been two other dev's that have worked on PvP. Both of which have left Cryptic amicably. I'd wager this was a mix of the overblown power creep and a lack of information on how to work with the PvP system. Now we have CrypticSpartan working on it. He hasn't given up and we're seeing things turn up that actually improve PvP. Albeit they they still have a ways to go, to overcome the years of neglect that PvP has gotten. But for skill changes in general, PvP in STO is not to blame for it. As I said, these changes come from the PvE side of it.
The only thing that was abused in PvP use to be the reward. That was back when it rewarded choice marks. Which, well we can see what happened there.
The PvP Endeavor pointed out, people will do it, if there is a decent enough reward for it. Currently PvP doesn't have a reward worth bothering with. It also got people to PvP, some just went for the reward, as you can see from the post about it. Some discovered that PvP can be fun, as long as you avoid the well geared ones that tend to give PvP a bad name. This was a good way fro Cryptic to get a good look at PvP as a whole.
Now, with the fact the Endeavor system includes PvP, and that the Competitive maps have both PvE and PvP elements. Add these with the new Miracle Worker specialization, Competitive Reputation Gear, and colony gear, all of which keep survivability in mind, says that they support PvP and that is it not going to be removed from the game. Instead they've slowly been working toward the very opposite. Only the blind would not see this.
Take a moment to think about the previous two paragraphs. Then look to summer of 2018 when we get the Victory Is Life expansion. While you're looking at that take a moment to realize, we will get that expansion about the same time as fleets should be finishing up the Tier 5 colony. That's 7 months of S14, and all they have to work on is finishing up the New Frontiers arc and anything they add for the colony. Now with that in mind, think about the very name of the next expansion, "Victory Is Life." This is an optimal time to introduce new things for PvP, perhaps even a rework of the older assets for it as well. Now, I'm not saying the expansion will be PvP focused, just that it's an optimal time to release new things for it. This is just my thoughts on it though.
But with what they have done so far. It's safe to say, you can keep repeating yourself about them dropping PvP all you want. The evidence that is provided in-game states, its not going to happen.
The main thing that people get wrong, is the Star Trek is PvP oriented. Just look at all the conflict between the factions in the shows and movies. One of the main premises that Star Trek is overcoming adversity. Rising up to the challenge, so to speak. A lot of that has been done in a very violent manner. The thing here is, when it comes to game, people don't even see "factions" when it comes to NPCs. All they see is loot and accolades. When they're confronted with another player, they suddenly see another faction. This will vary per player and what their perspective of it is.
Now with the current Alliance, I can see where they might get turned off by PvP. The factions are no longer at war with each other. However, if you look at it as an Alliance training simulation, it becomes viable to use. The only thing missing is a reward for doing it. Which a decent reward is one of the main things every post about PvP stresses.
But aside from that, the balance is still OK right now, and I have no problems holding my own in a fight. Part of the problem is just these aforementioned "veterans" preying on rookies and keeping them off the arena for good.
Having said, I think we're making PvP in STO to be too much of a big deal as well. Especially considering the fact that STO, although a great MMO, is an outdated game, and we make too much drama over it. I'm content to have PvP as a minor part of the game as end-game material for when I'm in the mood to fight something more "active" than zombified NPC's.
We finally got the balance that was needed to make PvE less dps-absurd and PvP to be at least OK to the best of the dev's abilities. So I think everything is fine just the way it is (the last thing I expect is perfection from Cryptic), because I repeat, this is an outdated game, and might add it's just a video-game, and not some religion or "Second-Life" as some make it out to be in the forum-zoo.
Oh and don't get me started on "canon" and faction "stories" on why there's a reason to PvP. I PvP purely as if I would play Counter-Strike. I don't need a damn backstory or roleplay to do it. I just get in there and shoot for mindless fun.