Thank you for being honest about your thoughts on the subject @patrickngo. I can fully appreciate your point of view more than you know but i was trying to promote some hope, i know it isn't enough but i wanted to try and see if there is a chance of some form of change to give the PvP community a chance considering how slim that chance is.
It is a shame to see though how jaded a few of us here have really become with STO, i do see it but just planting negativity for the sake of it hasn't worked for me in the past. Thinking that hope is an illusion? But there are times where hope is given a second chance and if you let it, it can pay you back with interest on that day, you just need to pick the right moment to let that guard down and embrace this renewed hope.
From my own experience about being burned and not letting anything getting close? Eventually it will start getting to you how isolated you really are about what you are doing and eventually you will start to seriously question yourself consistently on the topic. I am concerned if you have left yourself with some positivity in all this despite what you have seen, it would be nice to know that you haven't given up completely.
At this point I can't really offer much for that hope, Mirror. in 2015, a group of us did a research project using things like employment advertisements, man-hours estimates, and other long, boring business grinding sources to build an estimate on what it would most likely cost to rebuild PvP into something viable.
this included things like queue design, map-making, systems, and coding to put it together.
when the process passed $10M, we stopped.
we weren't even halfway done, and it was already projecting as something insanely expensive. Teh man-hours just to get through the existing abilities at that time to debug every piece of then-existing gear, check for interactions, and establish reasonable balancing was somewhere in the thousands of hours-this isn't accounting for all that's been added since.
Queue design as we've seen, takes hundreds to thousands of hours of work, debugging, and integration. Maps end up being the cheapest route, but any mechanic on a map has to be debugged and integrated as well.
doing a "Fixed loadout vanilla" version and you've got to make new versions of every ship in the game, and there are a LOT of ships,
There no longer exists enough audience to pay the bills for any of it. Had things been managed differently, most of that cost would've been amortized over time, many of the necessary jobs to fix it mechanically wouldn't even need to have been made-but there's the flip side of that. STO has outlasted most of it's peers and at seven years old, it's beaten the average three times over for an MMO, which makes the business case even more difficult to build and present.
without a business case, no funding, no funding, and nothing changes without intense personal commitment at the developer level...
and with the main decision makers being who they are, that's not going to happen.
This is why I'm not looking for an immediate fix. Sure, if you have the resources, this would be the way to go. But, as Cryptic doesn't have these resources, then you have to look at it with that limiting factor. This means, look at what we already have and what can be done to help that. The key here is to start small, with something that doesn't take a lot of development.
Ok, there are PvP maps already in game. Those can be used and then other can be added later. Just like any new map they come up with.
Ships, well, there are already plenty of those in game. So, that takes care of that.
The same with gear and traits.
So, what could be done to help this, that's already in game?
Well, the Tiered System I mentioned. It's the exact same as leveling a character. So that's just coding in a Tier Selection and map lockouts for that. This way new and old characters can use the system.
The Lock outs we know can be done. Just create a new character and hit U. The lock outs are there. For maps, Risa has ability lock outs built into it. But this wouldn't be a map lockout.
Oh wait... if they make it Tiered, like a Reputation or Fleet Holding, then everyone starts at Tier 0. Or they could have all the tiers equal to that character's current level and just be able to select which tier, or level, they want to PvP at.
Leveling a character provides access to Skill Points, Traits, Higher Tier Gear Mk's, Ships, and Specialization Points. The tiered system just provides a PvP level lock for this. For example, selecting Tier 3 for PvP, would mean that character now has everything a level 30-39 character would have. That would be the Starting Traits, Level 10 trait, level 20 trait, level 30 trait, up to Tier 3 ships, and Mk VI-VII gear. All of which are already in-game.
The only thing not in game is the Tiered system to provide the level locks. The thing here, where I foresee the majority of people complaining, would be that all T6 ships would be locked to T6 PvP and T5 and T5-U ships would be locked to Tier 5 PvP.
This would be the very basic thing to put in-game. Since it contains the power creep to the Tier 5 and 6 PvP. This would be to allow the player to get in, get a feel for the new system and such. Minimal rewards starting out, basically the PvP rewards we have not. But instead of having to win 15 matches to get. You can now do 3 of 5 wins, public queue only.
Again, allowing the players to get a feel for it, and see how lively it becomes. Because the one thing you can count on here. If there's a bug, skill imbalance, or exploit then the players will be sure to let them be known. Then, if PvP becomes more active, they can start working toward adding more stuff for it.
This is with the minimal investment of just making the Tiered Selection for PvP, since everything else is already in-game. This is one of those start small and move forward one step at time problems.
The next step from here could be adding in the Advanced and Elite versions you mentioned.
And since it also cuts out the power creep. It also has to potential to bring back the older players that left, as well as pull in newer players.
the problem is, hte problems are systemic, as was blatantly visible with the over-reaction to the Spartan Balance Pass, getting any element through the phalanx of legions of the targeted demographic, to get it to stick in the first place, is going to be an expensive undertaking that could destabilize the game in wholly different ways.\
you have to remember: the favourite boogeyman and scapegoat for the vocal majority when the devs change something away from the FAW-your-way-to-Vik-to-ree is PvP. any actual effort to implement even mild changes (even changes that don't impact PvE) is going to draw the ire of protestors and protesterettes who, for the most part, share Geko's negative view of PvP as an activity and Pvp Players as People (or rather, in their shared view, 'nonpersons' or 'undesirables'.)
the odds are strongest that any proposed alteration will be rolled back as soon as the appropriate (Geko or Borticus) person comes back from accepting their annual award for "best MMO game" from MassivelyOP..
Yes, we all know this. That's why I'm saying to start with just the tiered system. This doesn't change anything in the game. Just applies a set of limitations that the player themselves can choose from.
As you said, the first step is building a community. The DPS style would still be there, so there wouldn't be anything for them to complain about. Well, aside maybe fewer targets, depending on what Tier everyone else chooses to PvP at. This means that any blame that people would cast at the Dev's for it, would be nothing to pay attention to. As it wouldn't be the dev's forcing people to PvP at any given tier.
And while Al Riviera, aka CaptainGeko, does have slight bias toward PvE, due to the event surrounding the release of the Excelsior. But it is nothing that can't be worked around. We all have to remember, at the time, the PvP in-game was more balanced. But it was still a new part of the game. It wasn't fully developed at the time. We still have that same underdeveloped system.
And PvP is highly important to PvE. PvP in an MMO is where the majority of balancing comes from. Take the recent change to Proton damage as an example here. We the players and the dev's can all admit, the balancing is way out of whack, even for PvE. Again the recent change to proton damage and the balancing patch that was released says this.
Even the new Miracle Worker Specialization says this. As we're seeing new things that haven't been in game before. If you look over the new spec, you'll see it gives, Critical Resistance. This is actually a new addition to the game. Because it's the first thing to give it. This goes against the current meta of stacking [CritD].
One of the things you have to take in to account here. Due to the toxicity of the community. The developers do not generally address posts and complaints, instead they let the patch notes and such speak for them.
alright, taking it back down to brass tacks, and ignoring the objections that immediately come to my mind when we talk PvP...
Step one isn't tiered, it's re-opening leveling via PvP again as a viable option. This isn't just the easiest path, it's also the path least likely to start the **** storm from the PvE community.
Step TWO, is designing and implementing a reward system that's hard to abuse or break, but offers something valuable enough to make up for not-doing-PvE grinds and solo missions.
so FIRST, you open the area that's had the least in terms of imbalance problems. THEN, you mix in decent enough rewards to be a viable option, in a manner that is preventative of fraud or abuse. (to at least 80%).
The powercreep problem (AOY special ships excepted), isn't a major issue from levels 1-49, it's a MAJOR issue from 50 on up.
So the first move, is to make it viable to build your skills in the lower levels, this is groundwork here-the idea is to start constructing your PvP community in a manner that will emphasize positives and most importantly, engage players.
for this, we can look at resurrecting some things that were removed:
1. Faction queues. Limit these (FvK, KvK and FvF) to lower-levels as the queues for lower levels. Levels 1-40, or cut it off and substitute the mixed queue at 45 to 50 (in time for the Undine attack on ESD). The KvK map for Capture and Hold had different 'capture markers', as it did for FvK. the maps already exist somewhere in the archive, this should make it easier to reintegrate them to the leveling period where the Klingon/FEderation conflict is still relevant.
2. Retain KvK queues with the changeover. Klingons fight Klingons when they're not fighting other people, they're the only major power that regularly engages in internal feuds and civil wars. this gives a 'canon immersion' link to the activity, and can provide a side-story arc for people who don't want to kiss the Kobali's **** or seek out an Epohh friend, or investigate the magic of friendship with people they've been at war with for the last decade.
3. revamp one or two existing maps Klingon side for territory control, and make them faction-exclusive. N'Vak, for example, or 'stock Klingon colony site' world, and tie it to your hypothetical 'side story'.
why Klingons? it's the lowest impact choice. The vast majority of PvE (only) players are fed-side.
Maps to ADD:
1. convoy raid/Escort (FvK, levels 11-41) timed PvP mission, Federation team is protecting/escorting the convoy of juicy but tough targets, KDF player's objective is to take out 50% or more of those juicy but tough targets without being shot down. Time-limit is 10 minutes. rewards are marks and scaled based on surviving tough-but-juicy targets. The level 50+ version is a training scenario and offers Competitive marks, rather than dilithium or fleet marks.
2. Territorial Control (FvK, Ground, using the Colony Incursion map), Timed PvP mission based on capture the flag. Levels 11-49 rewards Fleetmarks and Dilithium, levels 50 to endgame rewards Competitive marks. Scoring based on how many areas in the settlement are under each team's control by teh end of the timer.
3. C&H revamp (Salvage mission): Timed, timer ends at 10 minutes, marks awarded based on each side's influence score.
4. Battleth Arena: (KvK) accessible from the Qo'noS map's challenge floor. Timed event, single player each side, scoring based on 'falls' or respawn/kills. all armor, shield and kit items disabled. Melee weapons or unarmed ONLY 10 minute timer
5. Boxing Ring (FvF, all levels): Unarmed combat with all armor, shields, and extra traits disabled, one on one, accessible from the Drozana or Starbase K-7 map. Melee or unarmed ONLY, 5 minute timer.
6. Duelling grounds (New Romulus): [all access], melee weapons only, armor, kits and shields disabled. Scoring on falls (knockouts). 5 minute timer.
7. BARFIGHT!!! (all access, Risa, Drozana, Quark's): last man standing, 15 minute timer, no limits at Drozana, Melee weapons only at Quark's. Bare-knuckle at the bar on Risa. Additional marks for remaining between 75% and 25% health during the fight.
Barfight spawns 1 every hour at the bottom of the hour on Drozana, top of the hour at Quark's, and every night-cycle on Risa during the summer event.
Barfight is an open-map mission (meaning anyone can join while it's going on by accepting the mission prompt).
accolades: "your ship is a garbage scow" (2nd place), or "should be hauled away AS garbage" (1st place), "Table Dancer" (use an interact to swing or throw furniture), "Just one more drink" (successfully use an interact to drink someone's glass during the fight), "The Bartender's my Girl/boy" (interact: kiss or punch the NPC bartender).
Tie in: celebrates the rich history of Star Trek barfight scenes from TOS to DS9.
8. "Round Perdition's flame!!":[FvF, all levels] recreate the showdown between Kirk and Khan from Star Trek II, map is a nebula with one large asteroid for a starting zone outside the nebula. Player 1 is the runner, player 2, the pursuer. all weapon accuracy is reduced inside the Nebula,and the minimap is likewise disabled. Timed mission: 5 minutes, scored on kills.
9. Starbase 24 (PvP, FvK, Levels 11-49): 5 players per team, 10 NPCs per team.. Starfleet players are defending, KDF players are attacking. Timed: 15 minutes, scoring based on damage to NPC forces, as multiplied by enemy kills, bonus to KDF players for damage done to the starbase, bonus to starfleet players for every level of healing applied to remove damage.
10. Federation Counter-offensive:Space: (FvK, levels 11-50) Federation team 5 players plus 15 NPCs. KDF team: 5 players plus 7 NPC's. Federation is on the offensive, KDF must defend points across the map, while preventing Starfleet from landing forces on [colony world, maybe Krios?]. Fed units must protect NPC assault ships, and attack KDF assets. Scoring is based on how far Starfleet players got before the time limit (20 minutes), multiplied by kill/death ratios among players. this is a dissimilar engagement and Federation cloaking devices are disabled on this map. (level 51 map is a training exercise).
11. Klingon Politics. (KvK, levels 11-60) ground or space map, gear-scored and level bracketed, meaning it can have dissimilar force sizes. timed queue mission, mission ends when one side or the other is eliminated from the map (sent to respawn at the same time) or 15 minutes. Scoring based on kill/death ratio. no additional objectives.
I do like this idea. But again, you're putting the cart before the horse. These are things to work on and add overtime. Trying to do this all at once adds production time and costs. Remember, that's the restraint Cryptic has to work with. So we have to start with what is the cheapest and fastest way to begin.
The Tiered System offers that. It's the cheapest and fastest way to start building that community. It works with whats already in-game.
For example, using this system, Your current level 60 can pvp at the Level 10-19 range, and have only what a level 10-19 would have. This also means that a new level 10-19 character can PvP at the same range, with the same things. This is only for PvP, it doesn't affect anything else in the game.
This take care of the level brackets you're mentioning. Without having to code all the level brackets into each map.
This system contains the power creep problem to level 50 and up. But offers the player the choice to pvp at the range, or to pvp at a range where the power creep isn't that big of a deal. It also opens up the ability to level via PvP. All this requires is adding an experience and expertise reward to it.
The reward, there is the problem. One could make a choice mark reward, but that only works for level 50+. Still, one can hold on to these boxes until that time. Which could be:
Tier 0: Level 1-9, Experience, Dilithium reward. Could add a 5 mark package.
Tier 1; Level 10-19, Experience, Dilithium and 10 mark reward package.
Tier 2: Level 20-29, Experience, Dilithium and 20 mark reward package.
Tier 3: Level 30-39, Experience, Dilithium and 30 mark reward package.
Tier 4: Level 40-49, Experience, Dilithium and 40 mark reward package.
Tier 5: Level 50-59, Experience, Dilithium and 50 mark reward package.
Tier 6: Level 60, Experience, Dilithium and 50 mark reward package.
You could even add a random level appropriate piece of gear. Like in Gorn Minefield or Big Dig.
Remember, you have to build the foundation, before you can build the house.
Think about everything you just said to do. Then take a moment and think. How much of that could you do on a budget that is probably the same amount as CrypticSpartan's pay?
summary/short: To be effective, a PvP system hs to encourage competitiveness, and it has to have a low entry cost with a decent training period. no wishlisting no matter how well considered or exciting in the abstract, will provide the solution unless or until it's accepted that in PvP, not everyone is a winner, and that Trophies for merely showing up are a bad influence.
I understand this. And I was being distracted by real life while writing my previous post. It cause me to combine the reward part part of it.
The Experience and Dilithium rewards are the standard reward.
Only the winner would walk away with the Choice mark package, or pvp marks, or R&D pack, or whatever this part of the reward happened to be.
If you want to make it competitive. Then you have to make it to where it's, "You're in it to win it." The participation reward does not belong in PvP at all. That's the first thing that has to go. A reward for just showing up does not exist in a competitive environment. Doing so would make it, "Everyone gets a reward. So why bother competing?" The competitive queues already prove what a failure of an idea that is. This is why you end up with a lot of AFKer's in current queues. All they have to do is show up to get a reward. And one of the new queues is actually built around that premise. Show up, park here, wait for the timer to expire, and collect your reward.
As you said, "Trophies for just showing up are a bad influence." That means the current reward system for STO, or as I like to call it, the "No Captain Left Behind Program." is the worst influence of all. But this type of thing works for PvE. But not PvP.
Look at PvP as the World Series, Super Bowl, NBA Championship, MMA match, WWE Match, or any sporting event.
Winner takes all.
Loser gets a handshake and a pat on the back. i.e. The Experience and Dilithium reward.
The only time this isn't the case is in an event like the Olympics, or the Board Race on Risa. Where you have multiple single players, or multiple teams, competing for the same prize. A free-for-all, your Barfight idea would be a good example of this and would require a score board to keep track of 1st, 2nd and 3rd place. But the scoreboard is already in game, thanks to some of the older PvE queues that have them, i.e. Gorn Minefield.
Another reason to go with the Tiered system I mentioned. It allows the player to choose at what level they wish to PvP. This is to also ensure that any higher level character can queue for the lower tiers. Say for instance a new player with a level 10 character wants to PvP. The queue time for this might last until they're level 30. This gives them an option to pop in to chat with something like, "New level 10 player, wanting to check out PvP." The current higher level characters around could then set to level 10, or Tier 1 PvP, and bam, now there's 1+ other players able to queue up for it.
The thing that would be annoying for player here is the current loadout system. This was mentioned in another thread, that the loadouts need to save traits as well. So this also brings another use to that system. Now they can do loadouts for each PvP Tier as well. Which would just require them to hit a ship selector.
This system gets the players involved in it. Because without the players, you can create all the maps you want. But if there isn't anyone to use them...
Now you mentioned low entry cost. I have to ask here, are we talking as in development time? Or do you mean as in low entry cost for the player to get setup for it?
If it's the latter. Well the Tier 0-4 ships are free. Those are the promotion ships. After this, they cost Dilithium, which is a build over time thing. the last time I looked at the lower Mk gear, it was fairly cheap as well. The only time you run in to this problem is at level 50+.
Sufficient training time? Tiered System offers indefinite amounts of it. It just depends on how much time you spend at what Tier of PvP.
Now that I think about it, The Tiered System is basically a revision of the Level Matching for multiple players in the Episodes. Took me a bit to remember what was in-game that gave me the idea. I seldom run with other players in the episodes, so I almost forgot that was even a thing.
I'm going to do some copy and paste here, to prevent having to edit on quote so much.
1. Unlock leveling via PvP and provide incentives to do so equivalent to, but different from, leveling via PvE. these incentives should be level-locked on both ends, and include cosmetic/appearance mods only available at the given tier.
2. PvP rewards scale in a manner that throwing the match gives you next to nothing. You MUST get kills for your team (or prevent your random teammates from dying) to get anything worth having. The odds stand hard against two random teams of five agreeing to just exchange deaths until the timer runs out. anyone who can manage that level of cooperation..deserves it really.
3. Hard-fought matches give better rewards than facerolls. I know this sounds kind of counterintuitive, but it makes sense for more epic struggles to give better rewards, and easy fights to give less of a reward.
4. rewards for C&H or other missions with secondary objectives should reflect bonuses for kill/death ratio, and should be locked to a timer of no greater than 15 minutes.
5. The nature of Rewards/awards should change at level 51, to a competitive Marks primary, with a secondary choice of fewer Fleetmarks, with base numbers equivalent to STF/PVE potential rewards as thus:
This is where I would start the Tier system. A new character automatically starts off at Tier 0. Now with the the ability to level via PvP. You lose the afore mentioned ability to level lock, by PvPing at a certain level. This system means they could drop back to that. Since you can out level gear and such fairly easily.
Plus it also covers the inevitable complaints that only these characters can get those cosmetics. It also offers the ability for that level 60 that knows it all to drop back to Tier 0 and to prove it. I understand where you are coming from here. But we both know that Cryptic would cave to these complaints eventually. This stops that before it can begin. The level lock on them though... we can work with that.
Make it like an event project, using a trophy or token of some sort. Though, not as a reward, but as a drop. This way the number you get per match is based on the number of kills you get. But each Tier having their own token. Perhaps have base of 1 trophy as part of the overall reward. But then when you need like 100 of them to unlock a tier's cosmetics. This also take care of number 2, because now the reward is kill based. This would be similar to the I.D. Tag drop for PvP kills in Scarlet Blade.
#3. I agree with it. Having it scale for harder fought matches would be good. With the base 1 trophy reward, and perhaps the standard experience, dilithium, and energy credit reward from an equivalent level episode. Then having it scale from there.
#4. I'm not sure what the best approach to this one would be. The time limit is good. I guess the best way to do this one would be, killing the other teams players scores points for your team. Capturing and holding points scores points for your team. The side holding the most points at the end wins. But the reward for both sides is based upon the points scored. The thing on this one would have to be. A C&H point in this one, starts as Neutral, and slowly returns to neutral, if no one from that team is there. This makes the holding part important. Then it can be based of the number of people per team at said point as to who controls it.
#5. This one, I'm kind of on the fence about. While I agree the nature of the reward does need to change. I'm not sure if it should be locked to just those two. The Fleetmarks reward could actually start a level 30, since this is when you unlock the Fleet system.
a. "basic" queues-limit all equipment to MkX Purple or below, Klikky powers are inactive, Lobi Powers are inactive, Specialization abilities are inactive, 'click to activate' traits are inactive, all duty officer boosts are inactive, and C-store ship-consoles are inactive.
b. "Standard" Queues- Limit all equipment to MkXII fleet or below, Lobi equipment/powers/buffs is inactive, Specialization powers are inactive, Duty Officer buffs are limited to Green Quality, and C-store consoles are inactive.
c. "Custom" queues- Limits all equipment to MkXIII fleet or below, Lobi equipment is inactive, 1 Specialization is active, "active" rep traits are active, Reputation traits are active, Duty officer quality limited to Blue.
d. "Unlimited" -anything goes. run what you gots, no limits.
These we already agreed upon with your Normal, Advanced and Elite. The custom one... I'd have to say this would fall more in line with private challenges. Thus, allowing the player to initiate a queue with Custom rules on what can be used.
This Tier System actually takes care of gear limits and such. But having these as limiters for the 50+ area works, especially on the click-to-use and C-store ship consoles. The only part of this I see people having a problem with would be the Duty Officer part. Might be good to allow these to be Common Rarity for the Normal instead. Since I had forgot about the Active Duty Roster. Might be good to place a limit on what rarity Bridge Officer can be used as well.
The clicky power part might be a problem here. As there are some stock personal traits that are click to use. The personal space/ground traits you can buy on the exchange become a bit of problem to figure out as well. So a bit more of a problem here on what to allow and what not to.
"Unlimited" queues are always Single-player, and matchmade against a specific score value, meaning your unlimited player could find himself outnumbered from the start 5 to 1, so long as both teams meet that minimum trigger score with their PPS (the matchmaking system Spartan already built).
Agreed.
6. No participation trophy-doesn't mean no reward, it means if you lose, you get LESS than the winner. in a severe mismatch, this could be effectively the same as getting no reward at all, while in a hard-fought match, you could potentially make more than you would grinding Elite PvE. This is the "lure" part.
Covered in the Trophy per kill idea.
7. No Cooldown on Rewards. finish a match, turn around, and start another. Because of the scaled rewards and the use of matchmaking and/or queue design, results aren't guaranteed (stimulates the gambler part of the brain), but could be significantly higher than grinding Korfez repeatedly. This is your "DRAW"-it CAN pay out more than grinding DPS in PvE.
Agreed. I haven't even mentioned putting a queue lockout in for PvP, for this very reason. Though adding the leaver's penalty in.
I'm a little out of order in how you set things out.
2. "reward" or "Record" matches should be locked to the public queues, no private matches will reward a damn thing.
Agreed.
3. Award Scaling should be implemented, both in terms of win/loss, and in terms of dis-incentivising the throwing of matches or the seeking of 'n00bz' to lord it over. The more unfair the match outcome is, the smaller the reward, down to 25% of listed value, matches that come within 1 or 2 kills (for arena) should pay out up to 150% of listed rewards be they marks, fleet marks, or dilithium-close matches should pay more, since both teams are working harder, either to cooperatively jack the scores, or competing harder because they're on their best game. Arenas should also be locked to an 'either or' situation where either the other team is all put to respawn, OR, the timer for the match is ended, and Arenas should be set to a maximum time limit of somewhere around 15 minutes.
Agreed. However, the drop reward idea works for this as well. Though the drop is in addition to this. Remember, this is like an event project. You know, like the Summer Event. The vouchers are used for the ship. Though it does leave a question whether to make it an Event type of project for the unlocks. Or to make a PvP store where you can buy them.
As you said, the new players are who this is going to hit the hardest. Because, even if you do this as new character only, the older players can make the investment on their other characters for all the gear and such for the new character. The new player doesn't have that advantage. There is nothing that can be done here. Aside from hoping that others pitch in to help them.
Both systems offer the twin path of leveling. Either via PvE or PvP. Your's is the progression of just leveling a character. Mine offers the option to return to a lower tier(re-apply the level lock) for PvP, though still allowing the character to gain experience. In either case, both systems work.
The mistake I made with the Tiered System idea, is not explain the level lock part. I don't mean that you're locking your character to this level only. Your character would still gain experience and be able to level. Albeit, at a slower pace, if you're PvPing at a lower tier than your level. Since you'd be receive that Tier's experience reward. For instance, a level 60 PvPing at the level 30 range, or Tier 3, would receive the Tier 3 reward. This is to keep the rewards fair across the board. Then that same level 60 could queue up again, this time at the Tier 4 level, and receive the Tier 4 reward. The "level lock" is to apply the level lockouts on traits, ships, gear mk, skills, abilities and specializations only. It's not to lock them out of gaining experience.
This is to provide the player the option to either use an older character or to level a new character. Which works with:
1. Unlock leveling via PvP and provide incentives to do so equivalent to, but different from, leveling via PvE. these incentives should be level-locked on both ends, and include cosmetic/appearance mods only available at the given tier.
Since we know these rewards would be per character. It just requires that the rewards for each Tier, be locked to that Tier only. This then means that each Tier offers it's own type of "trophy" or "voucher", i.e. Kill Trophy - Tier 0. Then it would just be getting the number you needed to unlock the cosmetic/appearance mods.
Of course another option would be a PvP recruiting event, much like DR or AoY.
I'm going to do some copy and paste here, to prevent having to edit on quote so much.
1. Unlock leveling via PvP and provide incentives to do so equivalent to, but different from, leveling via PvE. these incentives should be level-locked on both ends, and include cosmetic/appearance mods only available at the given tier.
2. PvP rewards scale in a manner that throwing the match gives you next to nothing. You MUST get kills for your team (or prevent your random teammates from dying) to get anything worth having. The odds stand hard against two random teams of five agreeing to just exchange deaths until the timer runs out. anyone who can manage that level of cooperation..deserves it really.
3. Hard-fought matches give better rewards than facerolls. I know this sounds kind of counterintuitive, but it makes sense for more epic struggles to give better rewards, and easy fights to give less of a reward.
4. rewards for C&H or other missions with secondary objectives should reflect bonuses for kill/death ratio, and should be locked to a timer of no greater than 15 minutes.
5. The nature of Rewards/awards should change at level 51, to a competitive Marks primary, with a secondary choice of fewer Fleetmarks, with base numbers equivalent to STF/PVE potential rewards as thus:
This is where I would start the Tier system. A new character automatically starts off at Tier 0. Now with the the ability to level via PvP. You lose the afore mentioned ability to level lock, by PvPing at a certain level. This system means they could drop back to that. Since you can out level gear and such fairly easily.
Plus it also covers the inevitable complaints that only these characters can get those cosmetics. It also offers the ability for that level 60 that knows it all to drop back to Tier 0 and to prove it. I understand where you are coming from here. But we both know that Cryptic would cave to these complaints eventually. This stops that before it can begin. The level lock on them though... we can work with that.
Make it like an event project, using a trophy or token of some sort. Though, not as a reward, but as a drop. This way the number you get per match is based on the number of kills you get. But each Tier having their own token. Perhaps have base of 1 trophy as part of the overall reward. But then when you need like 100 of them to unlock a tier's cosmetics. This also take care of number 2, because now the reward is kill based. This would be similar to the I.D. Tag drop for PvP kills in Scarlet Blade.
#3. I agree with it. Having it scale for harder fought matches would be good. With the base 1 trophy reward, and perhaps the standard experience, dilithium, and energy credit reward from an equivalent level episode. Then having it scale from there.
#4. I'm not sure what the best approach to this one would be. The time limit is good. I guess the best way to do this one would be, killing the other teams players scores points for your team. Capturing and holding points scores points for your team. The side holding the most points at the end wins. But the reward for both sides is based upon the points scored. The thing on this one would have to be. A C&H point in this one, starts as Neutral, and slowly returns to neutral, if no one from that team is there. This makes the holding part important. Then it can be based of the number of people per team at said point as to who controls it.
#5. This one, I'm kind of on the fence about. While I agree the nature of the reward does need to change. I'm not sure if it should be locked to just those two. The Fleetmarks reward could actually start a level 30, since this is when you unlock the Fleet system.
a. "basic" queues-limit all equipment to MkX Purple or below, Klikky powers are inactive, Lobi Powers are inactive, Specialization abilities are inactive, 'click to activate' traits are inactive, all duty officer boosts are inactive, and C-store ship-consoles are inactive.
b. "Standard" Queues- Limit all equipment to MkXII fleet or below, Lobi equipment/powers/buffs is inactive, Specialization powers are inactive, Duty Officer buffs are limited to Green Quality, and C-store consoles are inactive.
c. "Custom" queues- Limits all equipment to MkXIII fleet or below, Lobi equipment is inactive, 1 Specialization is active, "active" rep traits are active, Reputation traits are active, Duty officer quality limited to Blue.
d. "Unlimited" -anything goes. run what you gots, no limits.
These we already agreed upon with your Normal, Advanced and Elite. The custom one... I'd have to say this would fall more in line with private challenges. Thus, allowing the player to initiate a queue with Custom rules on what can be used.
This Tier System actually takes care of gear limits and such. But having these as limiters for the 50+ area works, especially on the click-to-use and C-store ship consoles. The only part of this I see people having a problem with would be the Duty Officer part. Might be good to allow these to be Common Rarity for the Normal instead. Since I had forgot about the Active Duty Roster. Might be good to place a limit on what rarity Bridge Officer can be used as well.
The clicky power part might be a problem here. As there are some stock personal traits that are click to use. The personal space/ground traits you can buy on the exchange become a bit of problem to figure out as well. So a bit more of a problem here on what to allow and what not to.
"Unlimited" queues are always Single-player, and matchmade against a specific score value, meaning your unlimited player could find himself outnumbered from the start 5 to 1, so long as both teams meet that minimum trigger score with their PPS (the matchmaking system Spartan already built).
Agreed.
6. No participation trophy-doesn't mean no reward, it means if you lose, you get LESS than the winner. in a severe mismatch, this could be effectively the same as getting no reward at all, while in a hard-fought match, you could potentially make more than you would grinding Elite PvE. This is the "lure" part.
Covered in the Trophy per kill idea.
7. No Cooldown on Rewards. finish a match, turn around, and start another. Because of the scaled rewards and the use of matchmaking and/or queue design, results aren't guaranteed (stimulates the gambler part of the brain), but could be significantly higher than grinding Korfez repeatedly. This is your "DRAW"-it CAN pay out more than grinding DPS in PvE.
Agreed. I haven't even mentioned putting a queue lockout in for PvP, for this very reason. Though adding the leaver's penalty in.
I'm a little out of order in how you set things out.
2. "reward" or "Record" matches should be locked to the public queues, no private matches will reward a damn thing.
Agreed.
3. Award Scaling should be implemented, both in terms of win/loss, and in terms of dis-incentivising the throwing of matches or the seeking of 'n00bz' to lord it over. The more unfair the match outcome is, the smaller the reward, down to 25% of listed value, matches that come within 1 or 2 kills (for arena) should pay out up to 150% of listed rewards be they marks, fleet marks, or dilithium-close matches should pay more, since both teams are working harder, either to cooperatively jack the scores, or competing harder because they're on their best game. Arenas should also be locked to an 'either or' situation where either the other team is all put to respawn, OR, the timer for the match is ended, and Arenas should be set to a maximum time limit of somewhere around 15 minutes.
Agreed. However, the drop reward idea works for this as well. Though the drop is in addition to this. Remember, this is like an event project. You know, like the Summer Event. The vouchers are used for the ship. Though it does leave a question whether to make it an Event type of project for the unlocks. Or to make a PvP store where you can buy them.
As you said, the new players are who this is going to hit the hardest. Because, even if you do this as new character only, the older players can make the investment on their other characters for all the gear and such for the new character. The new player doesn't have that advantage. There is nothing that can be done here. Aside from hoping that others pitch in to help them.
Both systems offer the twin path of leveling. Either via PvE or PvP. Your's is the progression of just leveling a character. Mine offers the option to return to a lower tier(re-apply the level lock) for PvP, though still allowing the character to gain experience. In either case, both systems work.
The mistake I made with the Tiered System idea, is not explain the level lock part. I don't mean that you're locking your character to this level only. Your character would still gain experience and be able to level. Albeit, at a slower pace, if you're PvPing at a lower tier than your level. Since you'd be receive that Tier's experience reward. For instance, a level 60 PvPing at the level 30 range, or Tier 3, would receive the Tier 3 reward. This is to keep the rewards fair across the board. Then that same level 60 could queue up again, this time at the Tier 4 level, and receive the Tier 4 reward. The "level lock" is to apply the level lockouts on traits, ships, gear mk, skills, abilities and specializations only. It's not to lock them out of gaining experience.
This is to provide the player the option to either use an older character or to level a new character. Which works with:
1. Unlock leveling via PvP and provide incentives to do so equivalent to, but different from, leveling via PvE. these incentives should be level-locked on both ends, and include cosmetic/appearance mods only available at the given tier.
Since we know these rewards would be per character. It just requires that the rewards for each Tier, be locked to that Tier only. This then means that each Tier offers it's own type of "trophy" or "voucher", i.e. Kill Trophy - Tier 0. Then it would just be getting the number you needed to unlock the cosmetic/appearance mods.
Of course another option would be a PvP recruiting event, much like DR or AoY.
I'll have to disagree with you (*still) on letting players go back and smurf the lower tiers. (yes, that's actually a term for running a high level character in low level content.) while a player CAN have deeper pockets on an alt than on their main, it doesn't necessarily follow that they WILL make use of it. On the other hand, if you've ever watched the numbers from a Fleet Alert (where everyone is 'matching levels' in the alert, rather than fighting per their OWN level) it doesn't really balance out well.
something I find interesting, is you're considering this as an event, like summer event, while I'm looking a bit longer-term. the system and structure I've proposed thus far, is intended to be how rewards function in PvP full-stop.
Meaning when bob's significant other (GF or BF) logs into the game after a year of badgering and creates a new toon, he/she/them will be seeing the same reward system, under this, that bob saw right after it was implemented in the middle of the previous year. that is, scaled rewards, special awards for each ten level tier that are locked in and can't be 'go back and retrieve it after you pass 60.', and of course, the 'endgame bracketing' (Basic/Normal, Standard/Advanced, and Unlimited/Elite).
The idea is to create a "New normal" for PvP. Events can be whacky good fun, but until there are enough players who are actually familiar with the mechanics of HOW to PvP, they're not even good as a niche activity due to often relying on half-done or half-thought-out mechanics. (Witness the "It's better to do nothing" efficiency crowd with regards to Mirror Invasion, who found that simply PARKING until the boss spawns is more rewarding than closing portals or fighting.)
the basic intent, is to make active participation more efficient than idleness, leeching, or throwing the match, and establish that as the 'new normal'.
for actual EVENTS...that's a whole novel's worth of topic there, as in being something that has a lot of possible formats once the basis of this system are in place. Faction-themed events, events themed around the storyline, events themed around the season, all of these are 'add ons', including tournament series.
but we've got to build enough community to SUPPORT tournaments and events.
No, I'm not looking at is as an event. I was looking at the methods for collecting said rewards. I used the event project type and the pvp store idea as means to do so. The reasons for this are:
1) You level extremely fast here. Once a character reaches level 11, they can literally doff their way to 60. So a new character could get the level lock rewards this way.
2) It is better than having another reputation. Which is locked to 50+. The event project/store style is available at level 10+.
3) It requires the collection of the needed item. i.e. They have to PvP to get the "trophy" or "voucher" for this. Remember, they're only getting 1 of these as part of the standard reward. Well, 1 as a base number. This can then scale with the overall score of the match. Which is why they can get additional ones per kill.
Example:
Queue, First player to 5 kills wins.
Player 1: 5 kills.
Player 2: 3 kills.
This means with the 1 base reward, Player one get 6 "trophies" and Player 2 gets 4 "trophies."
The thing here, is the scaling of the base reward. How would to do it? Go by number of kills? Or base it off damage done(DD) and damage received(DR)?
I'd go with the latter one. This way they can't just trade kills for bonus "trophies" on the scaling reward. This means throwing a match is easy to see, and the reward would reflect this. The more damage you do/receive, the higher your potential reward.
This could scale as an average, (DD + DR)/2. Then have preset numbers at each tier that provides the scaling. This way if you get a Zero(no damage) in the the DD or DR parts. Then the reward doesn't scale.
As to the smurfing. We both know Cryptic would find a way to do this, or make it a level 50+ reputation. So I looked at how they could do this. Hence the Tiered System.
A level 60, selecting to PvP at Tier 1, or level 10-19, would have access to:
So this makes that level 60, a level 10 for the purpose of the PvP queue. They would still need to collect the "trophies" to get the level-locked reward. As I said, this is to prevent the inevitable complaints that only new characters can get this. The only other option I can see to alleviate this, would be to make them account unlocks. Which account unlocks are not synonymous with what we are discussing here.
Add in your map lockouts. Though I'm still debating the lobi/dilithium store consumables.
As I said, this is to present the option to use an old character or level a new character. In either case, they have to PvP to get the "trophies" for the reward. And you can't get these "trophies" outside of PvP.
The question there is, for the Events that have some PvP Elements to them. Like the board races for the summer event. Since these are technically PvP, should they reward a minimal amount of "trophies?"
Sorry I haven't been back with any "words", again.
Not to say I contributed much....
I would like to give a different view of things for you two to bounce off of.
But no time to be able to keep up with the reading.
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
Sorry I haven't been back with any "words", again.
Not to say I contributed much....
I would like to give a different view of things for you two to bounce off of.
But no time to be able to keep up with the reading.
No worries. It'll still be here when you have the time.
The fundamental problem is that STO can't handle PvP...anymore. all semblance of balance was tossed out with the powercreep, broken mechanics, and inability to grasp any aspect of game balancing by the senior developers.
This concept, with t his game, and this development staff, is a loser.
Yeah...but in league format, you can restrict things. To say, items only bought at vendors, c-store ships only, boffs ability from vendor only, no doffs, no starship traits...etc etc. The league can produce balance even if cryptic can't. That said, the issue would be that there ain't no PvPers left to do this anyways.
No there are still some pvpers left in the game. I have some on my friends list. They're a small number of the population, and tend to keep the fact they PvP contained to private channels.
So it's not that there are none left. It's more that you generally don't know who is the PvPer and who isn't.
does it come in the Lobi store? it's locked out. Consumables, items, consoles, bridge officers, locked out. ships? the console gets locked out, a ship is a ship is a ship.
This is the iffy part. Because the devices and consumables from the lobi store are also available in the dilithium store. Well most of them any how. You can't get the Rules of Acquisition ones and the Gambling Device in the dilithium store.
Well that's a neat trick.... now.. how did I mange it?
The post editing feature was updated somewhat recently and will now eat your post if you make only minor changes when you edit. Best to avoid the feature until it is fixed.
I am a pvp player on ps4, i enjoy helping fleet members test builds and other ideas via pvp. Sometimes its just for fun and others for a lockbox ship we all want, the winner with most kills gets it. Trennan and Patrickngo why don't we try to make one? Its obvious you both have great ideas lets try to see what can be done in a small scale test.
Well that's a neat trick.... now.. how did I mange it?
The post editing feature was updated somewhat recently and will now eat your post if you make only minor changes when you edit. Best to avoid the feature until it is fixed.
It didn't in my post. It made my post the "show previous quote" of a quote. Probably missed one of the quote markers in the post itself.
I am a pvp player on ps4, i enjoy helping fleet members test builds and other ideas via pvp. Sometimes its just for fun and others for a lockbox ship we all want, the winner with most kills gets it. Trennan and Patrickngo why don't we try to make one? Its obvious you both have great ideas lets try to see what can be done in a small scale test.
This might not be a bad idea. I'll run it by my friends that are pvp oriented. I'd pvp more. I've just been lazy about upgrading my space gear and working out a build for it.
I've spent some time working on a ground build though. Might start with that on my 60. As far as the low level area. I only have 1 character slot open. Though I could stop my Rom_KDF char at 39, I was thinking of stopping at 49 here any how. Then use the char slot for a lower level. I'd level my lowbie alts up a bit for it. But they're set so I can get Mk II kits of all careers from the gear boxes.
4. Battleth Arena: (KvK) accessible from the Qo'noS map's challenge floor. Timed event, single player each side, scoring based on 'falls' or respawn/kills. all armor, shield and kit items disabled. Melee weapons or unarmed ONLY 10 minute timer.
I am soooo good with this. Sign me up!
The rest, I do not care for.
But this? Bat'leth 1v1, everything that is up-gradable disabled?
Thinking about doing this will have me smiling in delight the rest of the day.
(I can't frickin' believe you thought up something "I" would join in on.)
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
Trennan as regards the pvp aspect why not take a page from Patrickngo and use the idea of limiting captain traits or ship traits as a way to make it more challenging for vets and easier for newer players. I.E only allowing 3 ship traits and 5 captain traits. Or have tanking contests who can last the longest via a timer under sustained fire from other players. Why not make a pvp video guide or how to play sto guide or ship reviews? There are many ways as a community we can help the game we love to play.
Trennan as regards the pvp aspect why not take a page from Patrickngo and use the idea of limiting captain traits or ship traits as a way to make it more challenging for vets and easier for newer players. I.E only allowing 3 ship traits and 5 captain traits. Or have tanking contests who can last the longest via a timer under sustained fire from other players. Why not make a pvp video guide or how to play sto guide or ship reviews? There are many ways as a community we can help the game we love to play.
Why would anyone want traits if they couldn't use them?
Remove pvp let people focus on how the game was meant to be played.
There are people that play for PvP.
There are people that play for PvE.
Saying that the game is meant to be played without PvP is your opinion of it. The game is meant to be played in the manner the player wants to play it. Not how you say they should play it.
Besides, you keep repeating the same thing over and over. If you have nothing to add to the conversation, other than that. We we heard you the first time.
Trennan as regards the pvp aspect why not take a page from Patrickngo and use the idea of limiting captain traits or ship traits as a way to make it more challenging for vets and easier for newer players. I.E only allowing 3 ship traits and 5 captain traits. Or have tanking contests who can last the longest via a timer under sustained fire from other players. Why not make a pvp video guide or how to play sto guide or ship reviews? There are many ways as a community we can help the game we love to play.
Why would anyone want traits if they couldn't use them?
Remove pvp let people focus on how the game was meant to be played.
There are people that play for PvP.
There are people that play for PvE.
Saying that the game is meant to be played without PvP is your opinion of it. The game is meant to be played in the manner the player wants to play it. Not how you say they should play it.
Besides, you keep repeating the same thing over and over. If you have nothing to add to the conversation, other than that. We we heard you the first time.
I don't believe the first part of that.
You don't have to. Just because you don't know any, doesn't meant they do not exist.
Besides, if Cryptic wasn't trying to address the PvP situation. They wouldn't have introduced the Competitive Reputation. I'll admit, making it reputation wasn't the best way to go about it. But, it's a least a step in the right direction.
Of course there is also the PvP that everyone does on a annual basis. The board races on Risa, and the Winter Event. Or the scoring system for some of the PvE queues. Anything that has players competing against other players, is by definition PvP. Even being the top DPS, can be defined as PvP, as you are competing against other players for it.
So when you say PvP isn't part of the game. Do you mean just the Episodes? You know.. those things you can play solo.
Comments
I do like this idea. But again, you're putting the cart before the horse. These are things to work on and add overtime. Trying to do this all at once adds production time and costs. Remember, that's the restraint Cryptic has to work with. So we have to start with what is the cheapest and fastest way to begin.
The Tiered System offers that. It's the cheapest and fastest way to start building that community. It works with whats already in-game.
For example, using this system, Your current level 60 can pvp at the Level 10-19 range, and have only what a level 10-19 would have. This also means that a new level 10-19 character can PvP at the same range, with the same things. This is only for PvP, it doesn't affect anything else in the game.
This take care of the level brackets you're mentioning. Without having to code all the level brackets into each map.
This system contains the power creep problem to level 50 and up. But offers the player the choice to pvp at the range, or to pvp at a range where the power creep isn't that big of a deal. It also opens up the ability to level via PvP. All this requires is adding an experience and expertise reward to it.
The reward, there is the problem. One could make a choice mark reward, but that only works for level 50+. Still, one can hold on to these boxes until that time. Which could be:
Tier 0: Level 1-9, Experience, Dilithium reward. Could add a 5 mark package.
Tier 1; Level 10-19, Experience, Dilithium and 10 mark reward package.
Tier 2: Level 20-29, Experience, Dilithium and 20 mark reward package.
Tier 3: Level 30-39, Experience, Dilithium and 30 mark reward package.
Tier 4: Level 40-49, Experience, Dilithium and 40 mark reward package.
Tier 5: Level 50-59, Experience, Dilithium and 50 mark reward package.
Tier 6: Level 60, Experience, Dilithium and 50 mark reward package.
You could even add a random level appropriate piece of gear. Like in Gorn Minefield or Big Dig.
Remember, you have to build the foundation, before you can build the house.
Think about everything you just said to do. Then take a moment and think. How much of that could you do on a budget that is probably the same amount as CrypticSpartan's pay?
I understand this. And I was being distracted by real life while writing my previous post. It cause me to combine the reward part part of it.
The Experience and Dilithium rewards are the standard reward.
Only the winner would walk away with the Choice mark package, or pvp marks, or R&D pack, or whatever this part of the reward happened to be.
If you want to make it competitive. Then you have to make it to where it's, "You're in it to win it." The participation reward does not belong in PvP at all. That's the first thing that has to go. A reward for just showing up does not exist in a competitive environment. Doing so would make it, "Everyone gets a reward. So why bother competing?" The competitive queues already prove what a failure of an idea that is. This is why you end up with a lot of AFKer's in current queues. All they have to do is show up to get a reward. And one of the new queues is actually built around that premise. Show up, park here, wait for the timer to expire, and collect your reward.
As you said, "Trophies for just showing up are a bad influence." That means the current reward system for STO, or as I like to call it, the "No Captain Left Behind Program." is the worst influence of all. But this type of thing works for PvE. But not PvP.
Look at PvP as the World Series, Super Bowl, NBA Championship, MMA match, WWE Match, or any sporting event.
Winner takes all.
Loser gets a handshake and a pat on the back. i.e. The Experience and Dilithium reward.
The only time this isn't the case is in an event like the Olympics, or the Board Race on Risa. Where you have multiple single players, or multiple teams, competing for the same prize. A free-for-all, your Barfight idea would be a good example of this and would require a score board to keep track of 1st, 2nd and 3rd place. But the scoreboard is already in game, thanks to some of the older PvE queues that have them, i.e. Gorn Minefield.
Another reason to go with the Tiered system I mentioned. It allows the player to choose at what level they wish to PvP. This is to also ensure that any higher level character can queue for the lower tiers. Say for instance a new player with a level 10 character wants to PvP. The queue time for this might last until they're level 30. This gives them an option to pop in to chat with something like, "New level 10 player, wanting to check out PvP." The current higher level characters around could then set to level 10, or Tier 1 PvP, and bam, now there's 1+ other players able to queue up for it.
The thing that would be annoying for player here is the current loadout system. This was mentioned in another thread, that the loadouts need to save traits as well. So this also brings another use to that system. Now they can do loadouts for each PvP Tier as well. Which would just require them to hit a ship selector.
This system gets the players involved in it. Because without the players, you can create all the maps you want. But if there isn't anyone to use them...
Now you mentioned low entry cost. I have to ask here, are we talking as in development time? Or do you mean as in low entry cost for the player to get setup for it?
If it's the latter. Well the Tier 0-4 ships are free. Those are the promotion ships. After this, they cost Dilithium, which is a build over time thing. the last time I looked at the lower Mk gear, it was fairly cheap as well. The only time you run in to this problem is at level 50+.
Sufficient training time? Tiered System offers indefinite amounts of it. It just depends on how much time you spend at what Tier of PvP.
Now that I think about it, The Tiered System is basically a revision of the Level Matching for multiple players in the Episodes. Took me a bit to remember what was in-game that gave me the idea. I seldom run with other players in the episodes, so I almost forgot that was even a thing.
1. Unlock leveling via PvP and provide incentives to do so equivalent to, but different from, leveling via PvE. these incentives should be level-locked on both ends, and include cosmetic/appearance mods only available at the given tier.
2. PvP rewards scale in a manner that throwing the match gives you next to nothing. You MUST get kills for your team (or prevent your random teammates from dying) to get anything worth having. The odds stand hard against two random teams of five agreeing to just exchange deaths until the timer runs out. anyone who can manage that level of cooperation..deserves it really.
3. Hard-fought matches give better rewards than facerolls. I know this sounds kind of counterintuitive, but it makes sense for more epic struggles to give better rewards, and easy fights to give less of a reward.
4. rewards for C&H or other missions with secondary objectives should reflect bonuses for kill/death ratio, and should be locked to a timer of no greater than 15 minutes.
5. The nature of Rewards/awards should change at level 51, to a competitive Marks primary, with a secondary choice of fewer Fleetmarks, with base numbers equivalent to STF/PVE potential rewards as thus:
This is where I would start the Tier system. A new character automatically starts off at Tier 0. Now with the the ability to level via PvP. You lose the afore mentioned ability to level lock, by PvPing at a certain level. This system means they could drop back to that. Since you can out level gear and such fairly easily.
Plus it also covers the inevitable complaints that only these characters can get those cosmetics. It also offers the ability for that level 60 that knows it all to drop back to Tier 0 and to prove it. I understand where you are coming from here. But we both know that Cryptic would cave to these complaints eventually. This stops that before it can begin. The level lock on them though... we can work with that.
Make it like an event project, using a trophy or token of some sort. Though, not as a reward, but as a drop. This way the number you get per match is based on the number of kills you get. But each Tier having their own token. Perhaps have base of 1 trophy as part of the overall reward. But then when you need like 100 of them to unlock a tier's cosmetics. This also take care of number 2, because now the reward is kill based. This would be similar to the I.D. Tag drop for PvP kills in Scarlet Blade.
#3. I agree with it. Having it scale for harder fought matches would be good. With the base 1 trophy reward, and perhaps the standard experience, dilithium, and energy credit reward from an equivalent level episode. Then having it scale from there.
#4. I'm not sure what the best approach to this one would be. The time limit is good. I guess the best way to do this one would be, killing the other teams players scores points for your team. Capturing and holding points scores points for your team. The side holding the most points at the end wins. But the reward for both sides is based upon the points scored. The thing on this one would have to be. A C&H point in this one, starts as Neutral, and slowly returns to neutral, if no one from that team is there. This makes the holding part important. Then it can be based of the number of people per team at said point as to who controls it.
#5. This one, I'm kind of on the fence about. While I agree the nature of the reward does need to change. I'm not sure if it should be locked to just those two. The Fleetmarks reward could actually start a level 30, since this is when you unlock the Fleet system.
a. "basic" queues-limit all equipment to MkX Purple or below, Klikky powers are inactive, Lobi Powers are inactive, Specialization abilities are inactive, 'click to activate' traits are inactive, all duty officer boosts are inactive, and C-store ship-consoles are inactive.
b. "Standard" Queues- Limit all equipment to MkXII fleet or below, Lobi equipment/powers/buffs is inactive, Specialization powers are inactive, Duty Officer buffs are limited to Green Quality, and C-store consoles are inactive.
c. "Custom" queues- Limits all equipment to MkXIII fleet or below, Lobi equipment is inactive, 1 Specialization is active, "active" rep traits are active, Reputation traits are active, Duty officer quality limited to Blue.
d. "Unlimited" -anything goes. run what you gots, no limits.
These we already agreed upon with your Normal, Advanced and Elite. The custom one... I'd have to say this would fall more in line with private challenges. Thus, allowing the player to initiate a queue with Custom rules on what can be used.
This Tier System actually takes care of gear limits and such. But having these as limiters for the 50+ area works, especially on the click-to-use and C-store ship consoles. The only part of this I see people having a problem with would be the Duty Officer part. Might be good to allow these to be Common Rarity for the Normal instead. Since I had forgot about the Active Duty Roster. Might be good to place a limit on what rarity Bridge Officer can be used as well.
The clicky power part might be a problem here. As there are some stock personal traits that are click to use. The personal space/ground traits you can buy on the exchange become a bit of problem to figure out as well. So a bit more of a problem here on what to allow and what not to.
"Unlimited" queues are always Single-player, and matchmade against a specific score value, meaning your unlimited player could find himself outnumbered from the start 5 to 1, so long as both teams meet that minimum trigger score with their PPS (the matchmaking system Spartan already built).
Agreed.
6. No participation trophy-doesn't mean no reward, it means if you lose, you get LESS than the winner. in a severe mismatch, this could be effectively the same as getting no reward at all, while in a hard-fought match, you could potentially make more than you would grinding Elite PvE. This is the "lure" part.
Covered in the Trophy per kill idea.
7. No Cooldown on Rewards. finish a match, turn around, and start another. Because of the scaled rewards and the use of matchmaking and/or queue design, results aren't guaranteed (stimulates the gambler part of the brain), but could be significantly higher than grinding Korfez repeatedly. This is your "DRAW"-it CAN pay out more than grinding DPS in PvE.
Agreed. I haven't even mentioned putting a queue lockout in for PvP, for this very reason. Though adding the leaver's penalty in.
I'm a little out of order in how you set things out.
2. "reward" or "Record" matches should be locked to the public queues, no private matches will reward a damn thing.
Agreed.
3. Award Scaling should be implemented, both in terms of win/loss, and in terms of dis-incentivising the throwing of matches or the seeking of 'n00bz' to lord it over. The more unfair the match outcome is, the smaller the reward, down to 25% of listed value, matches that come within 1 or 2 kills (for arena) should pay out up to 150% of listed rewards be they marks, fleet marks, or dilithium-close matches should pay more, since both teams are working harder, either to cooperatively jack the scores, or competing harder because they're on their best game. Arenas should also be locked to an 'either or' situation where either the other team is all put to respawn, OR, the timer for the match is ended, and Arenas should be set to a maximum time limit of somewhere around 15 minutes.
Agreed. However, the drop reward idea works for this as well. Though the drop is in addition to this. Remember, this is like an event project. You know, like the Summer Event. The vouchers are used for the ship. Though it does leave a question whether to make it an Event type of project for the unlocks. Or to make a PvP store where you can buy them.
As you said, the new players are who this is going to hit the hardest. Because, even if you do this as new character only, the older players can make the investment on their other characters for all the gear and such for the new character. The new player doesn't have that advantage. There is nothing that can be done here. Aside from hoping that others pitch in to help them.
Both systems offer the twin path of leveling. Either via PvE or PvP. Your's is the progression of just leveling a character. Mine offers the option to return to a lower tier(re-apply the level lock) for PvP, though still allowing the character to gain experience. In either case, both systems work.
The mistake I made with the Tiered System idea, is not explain the level lock part. I don't mean that you're locking your character to this level only. Your character would still gain experience and be able to level. Albeit, at a slower pace, if you're PvPing at a lower tier than your level. Since you'd be receive that Tier's experience reward. For instance, a level 60 PvPing at the level 30 range, or Tier 3, would receive the Tier 3 reward. This is to keep the rewards fair across the board. Then that same level 60 could queue up again, this time at the Tier 4 level, and receive the Tier 4 reward. The "level lock" is to apply the level lockouts on traits, ships, gear mk, skills, abilities and specializations only. It's not to lock them out of gaining experience.
This is to provide the player the option to either use an older character or to level a new character. Which works with:
1. Unlock leveling via PvP and provide incentives to do so equivalent to, but different from, leveling via PvE. these incentives should be level-locked on both ends, and include cosmetic/appearance mods only available at the given tier.
Since we know these rewards would be per character. It just requires that the rewards for each Tier, be locked to that Tier only. This then means that each Tier offers it's own type of "trophy" or "voucher", i.e. Kill Trophy - Tier 0. Then it would just be getting the number you needed to unlock the cosmetic/appearance mods.
Of course another option would be a PvP recruiting event, much like DR or AoY.
No, I'm not looking at is as an event. I was looking at the methods for collecting said rewards. I used the event project type and the pvp store idea as means to do so. The reasons for this are:
1) You level extremely fast here. Once a character reaches level 11, they can literally doff their way to 60. So a new character could get the level lock rewards this way.
2) It is better than having another reputation. Which is locked to 50+. The event project/store style is available at level 10+.
3) It requires the collection of the needed item. i.e. They have to PvP to get the "trophy" or "voucher" for this. Remember, they're only getting 1 of these as part of the standard reward. Well, 1 as a base number. This can then scale with the overall score of the match. Which is why they can get additional ones per kill.
Example:
Queue, First player to 5 kills wins.
Player 1: 5 kills.
Player 2: 3 kills.
This means with the 1 base reward, Player one get 6 "trophies" and Player 2 gets 4 "trophies."
The thing here, is the scaling of the base reward. How would to do it? Go by number of kills? Or base it off damage done(DD) and damage received(DR)?
I'd go with the latter one. This way they can't just trade kills for bonus "trophies" on the scaling reward. This means throwing a match is easy to see, and the reward would reflect this. The more damage you do/receive, the higher your potential reward.
This could scale as an average, (DD + DR)/2. Then have preset numbers at each tier that provides the scaling. This way if you get a Zero(no damage) in the the DD or DR parts. Then the reward doesn't scale.
As to the smurfing. We both know Cryptic would find a way to do this, or make it a level 50+ reputation. So I looked at how they could do this. Hence the Tiered System.
A level 60, selecting to PvP at Tier 1, or level 10-19, would have access to:
Starting Species Traits
Level 10 trait
Level 10 Abilities
Level Appropriate Mk of gear.
Level 10 Skill points.
Starting Ship
Tier 1 ships
So this makes that level 60, a level 10 for the purpose of the PvP queue. They would still need to collect the "trophies" to get the level-locked reward. As I said, this is to prevent the inevitable complaints that only new characters can get this. The only other option I can see to alleviate this, would be to make them account unlocks. Which account unlocks are not synonymous with what we are discussing here.
Add in your map lockouts. Though I'm still debating the lobi/dilithium store consumables.
As I said, this is to present the option to use an old character or level a new character. In either case, they have to PvP to get the "trophies" for the reward. And you can't get these "trophies" outside of PvP.
The question there is, for the Events that have some PvP Elements to them. Like the board races for the summer event. Since these are technically PvP, should they reward a minimal amount of "trophies?"
Not to say I contributed much....
I would like to give a different view of things for you two to bounce off of.
But no time to be able to keep up with the reading.
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
No worries. It'll still be here when you have the time.
No there are still some pvpers left in the game. I have some on my friends list. They're a small number of the population, and tend to keep the fact they PvP contained to private channels.
So it's not that there are none left. It's more that you generally don't know who is the PvPer and who isn't.
It didn't in my post. It made my post the "show previous quote" of a quote. Probably missed one of the quote markers in the post itself.
This might not be a bad idea. I'll run it by my friends that are pvp oriented. I'd pvp more. I've just been lazy about upgrading my space gear and working out a build for it.
I've spent some time working on a ground build though. Might start with that on my 60. As far as the low level area. I only have 1 character slot open. Though I could stop my Rom_KDF char at 39, I was thinking of stopping at 49 here any how. Then use the char slot for a lower level. I'd level my lowbie alts up a bit for it. But they're set so I can get Mk II kits of all careers from the gear boxes.
I am soooo good with this. Sign me up!
The rest, I do not care for.
But this? Bat'leth 1v1, everything that is up-gradable disabled?
Thinking about doing this will have me smiling in delight the rest of the day.
(I can't frickin' believe you thought up something "I" would join in on.)
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
Trennan as regards the pvp aspect why not take a page from Patrickngo and use the idea of limiting captain traits or ship traits as a way to make it more challenging for vets and easier for newer players. I.E only allowing 3 ship traits and 5 captain traits. Or have tanking contests who can last the longest via a timer under sustained fire from other players. Why not make a pvp video guide or how to play sto guide or ship reviews? There are many ways as a community we can help the game we love to play.
There are people that play for PvP.
There are people that play for PvE.
Saying that the game is meant to be played without PvP is your opinion of it. The game is meant to be played in the manner the player wants to play it. Not how you say they should play it.
Besides, you keep repeating the same thing over and over. If you have nothing to add to the conversation, other than that. We we heard you the first time.
You don't have to. Just because you don't know any, doesn't meant they do not exist.
Besides, if Cryptic wasn't trying to address the PvP situation. They wouldn't have introduced the Competitive Reputation. I'll admit, making it reputation wasn't the best way to go about it. But, it's a least a step in the right direction.
Of course there is also the PvP that everyone does on a annual basis. The board races on Risa, and the Winter Event. Or the scoring system for some of the PvE queues. Anything that has players competing against other players, is by definition PvP. Even being the top DPS, can be defined as PvP, as you are competing against other players for it.
So when you say PvP isn't part of the game. Do you mean just the Episodes? You know.. those things you can play solo.