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Esports PvP League STO?

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  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,839 Arc User
    I think you're all overlooking something here. While, yes, they are still facing the overall problem of the on going installments of power creep that started with Delta Rising. Which did cause the mass exodus of not only PvPers, but PvE players as well. Let's take a moment to look at what they have done lately.

    First there was the not so popular balancing patch. This caused a bit of a stir, where people started to review builds. Especially in the area of the current meta setup. This was step one, getting people to review builds.

    Then not long after came the competitive reputation. This offered players the chance to compete in a pvp style environment. With one map that actually allows for PvP. It also offers a variety of gear to help with review of the balance patch. Another step in working on PvP.

    Then we get the new colony holding and miracle worker specialization. Which the colony offers tank/healer gear. The specialization offers Crit Res, Health, and healing. Granted, the ability cooldowns for the spec seem to need to of adjusting. But this is another step in countering the DPS Meta.

    Now take a moment to let that sink in. Then stop and realize. We're at the START of Season 14. Literally, barely a couple weeks in to it. With this in mind, they now have an entire SEASON to continue to work on this. Because what do they really have left to work on from S13? Just finishing up the New Frontiers story arc.

    So while other are still saying they aren't working on it. I'm actually seeing they are working on it. It just not an all at once type of thing.
    Mm5NeXy.gif
  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,844 Arc User
    edited October 2017
    If a league was made would you watch your favorite teams or players battle it out on Twitch, YouTube, or other methods of streaming? I know how difficult it is to break into the pvp scene be it console or pc, for new players especially. But as fan of STO and Star Trek in general it annoys me that there isn't a league for STO. We have the best space combat in the mmo Sci-Fi Genre. PW could pull players from console and pc and form teams of 5 or 3 or whatever and use core assault or other pves as a map. Also they could skip the pve and just do straight pvp. I just think it should be attempted. But I just want to know what the community thinks.

    The STO PvP group from what i understand is a minor fraction of the entire playerbase. Unless that changes, i can't really see the point in creating such an event to watch the same hundred or so players (figuratively) every season do battle. The reason esports works so well with Starcraft for example is the massive PvP playerbase globally and the quality of tactics and gameplay being used.

    If you wish to start up your own PvP league system by having a few people record the matches as observers, then you would be welcome to give it a try and see if you can get everyone onboard who does PvP.
    tremere12 wrote: »
    PVE is just as remarkably low quality really. Whatever is left of PvP is still a more fun activity than spamming the old spacebar against utterly mindless critters in ISA. Therefore PVE in STO is worse **** than its PVP right now. There's no more strategy - no thinking - just dps all day. At least in PvP, despite all the imbalances, you get to build some actual fvcking skill, and the rewards that come with it.

    PvP is exactly the same to PvE, in PvP you have the same limited builds and same tactics being used each time, it hardly encourages high quality game play when you are mashing the same keys over and over. PvE is basically doing the same thing but through multiple maps and mashing keys in the same fashion to reach the end goal.
    T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW.
    Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
  • where2r1where2r1 Member Posts: 6,054 Arc User
    edited October 2017
    I watch the PvP videos that SOB, Snipey and Odenknight used to put up on their You Tube...since I subscribe to those channels.

    I, also, used to read the smack talk between the PvP fleets in the PvP part of the forums and look at the vids they post as proof... the Pandas, HOBO and Dental...few others, too. You learned a lot from the PvP part of the forums back then.

    Now a days, you have to read through the STO Builds part of the Reddit and on FB. Which really isn't as amusing.

    I don't remember Gozer...but I do remember AdjudicatorHawk and Virusdancer, so it was around that time.
    "Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK

    “Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
  • baudlbaudl Member Posts: 4,060 Arc User
    I have to agree with patrickngo here...I think he brought up some good points on why PVP at this point is neither open to new players, nor has it anything that makes it worthwhile for players that are genuinely interested in PVP.

    Personally, the sollution and even "easy fix" I see, would be a PVP lineup that asigns specific prebuild ships to players. That way, the severe balancing issues and advantages of the most invested players can be equalized this way. A level playing field for every participant, no matter if he/she is new to the game or not is what is needed, and can only be ensured this way.

    Having the ships set to specific types also means that "historic" lineups are possible, where battles from the TV shows can be reinacted by players vs. players.

    I'd like to see that, but I know that this is beyond what Cryptic has planned for this game, and I accept that.
    Go pro or go home
  • bumperthumperbumperthumper Member Posts: 513 Arc User
    Take out the P2W clickies and I'd be on board with this. Also, take out all space traits. That'd be interesting.

    Not a joke. It would actually be fun to watch.
    A proud member of The Collective ARMADA
    NOT A FAN OF ARC!
  • bumperthumperbumperthumper Member Posts: 513 Arc User
    baudl wrote: »
    I have to agree with patrickngo here...I think he brought up some good points on why PVP at this point is neither open to new players, nor has it anything that makes it worthwhile for players that are genuinely interested in PVP.

    Personally, the sollution and even "easy fix" I see, would be a PVP lineup that asigns specific prebuild ships to players. That way, the severe balancing issues and advantages of the most invested players can be equalized this way. A level playing field for every participant, no matter if he/she is new to the game or not is what is needed, and can only be ensured this way.

    Having the ships set to specific types also means that "historic" lineups are possible, where battles from the TV shows can be reinacted by players vs. players.

    I'd like to see that, but I know that this is beyond what Cryptic has planned for this game, and I accept that.

    I completely concur with this. Well spoken, my friend.

    A proud member of The Collective ARMADA
    NOT A FAN OF ARC!
  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,839 Arc User
    I do like your idea. It just comes with the small problem, that people would want to level lock a character at a certain tier. You system works, much the same as the tiered system I said.

    A level 1 and a level 60 is the same thing if you lock out abilities, traits, specializations and gear. Which they already have set up, since you UNLOCK these as you level.

    The tiered system I mentioned can start a level 1. It just gives the players the option to lock a character in at a certain pvp tier, by not leveling it any farther than that tier. This means a player could take their existing level 60's and have one for each different tier of PvP if they wanted. This also means, all they have to do if they release a T7 ship, is add it to the tiered system.

    The marks package I mentioned, the trade in. Is PvP Marks to PvE marks only. The marks package does not include PvP marks. Then it just making sure that the PvP marks are limited to PvP only. Meaning you can't get them from a PvE. You wouldn't even be able to get them from the Summer or Winter Events.

    Then from here, they could go about adding more PvP maps for what you're saying.

    As my tiered system shows, each tier is locked to what is allowed in that tier. So a level 1-10, or a level 60, would be locked to Tier I ships, gear, traits and abilities.

    While I understand where you are coming from with the old system. Back when all we had was UR Mk XII gear as top end gear. It would require a complete rework of the PvP system.

    So we're both looking at the same end point here. Just taking different approaches. The main thing I mentioned being the problem, was how to reward the player for doing it. The mark trade in is always an option, just like with our current reps. They could add in new gear and outfits as well. That and what the limitations on gear and traits should be for this.

    The main problem here is insuring the tier remain exclusive to that tier. That way, someone with T2 PvP unlocks, couldn't enter a T1 PvP match. It would either deny them entry, or drop them back to the T1 setup.

    With the tiered system, all it really does is take all that precious power creep and shove it right out the airlock.

    The only other thing that need to be insured here, is that players can't abuse the system. Like you mentions with the old rewards. Which I'm not entirely sure on how to go about insuring this doesn't happen. The only thing I can think to help here is, Winner get paid, Loser does not, and the mark trade in doesn't include fleet marks.
    Mm5NeXy.gif
  • orondisorondis Member Posts: 1,447 Arc User
    edited October 2017
    The problems with PvP started well before Delta Rising. It had been a growing problem ever since the game went to F2P and started to rely on an uber-casual player base and powercreep for money

    The first change that signaled the way the game was going was when they modified tactical team to auto-distribute shields. I know it seems rather silly now, but back then that was a massive change to the game. Back then if you used transfer shield strength and tactical team it was almost as effective as Reverse Shield Polarity. Factor in the then released field generator console and some PvPers had to ram each other to do damage.

    The rebalance was needed, but frankly the powercreep has been running away for so long it's insane and no rebalance will fix it. Well, not without making how the 99% of the playerbase have a tantrum. I mean the invincible trait is insane in itself, but it's needed nowadays just to avoid being vaped even with all defenses up.

    I mean even when DOB trolled the pug queues in no-shield T4 cruisers (yeah, the big slow galaxies), that was at least somewhat fun to fight. Nowadays you fight premades utilizing every disable and drain in the game. You just sit there as your ship gradually dies.

    I didn't like that with SNB+VM combo in the old days. It's even worse now.

    Then there are the placates, the shield pen... It's just not fun. It's not fun to watch, it's not fun to play.
    Previously Alendiak
    Daizen - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
    Selia - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,839 Arc User
    orondis wrote: »
    The problems with PvP started well before Delta Rising. It had been a growing problem ever since the game went to F2P and started to rely on an uber-casual player base and powercreep for money

    The first change that signaled the way the game was going was when they modified tactical team to auto-distribute shields. I know it seems rather silly now, but back then that was a massive change to the game. Back then if you used transfer shield strength and tactical team it was almost as effective as Reverse Shield Polarity. Factor in the then released field generator console and some PvPers had to ram each other to do damage.

    The rebalance was needed, but frankly the powercreep has been running away for so long it's insane and no rebalance will fix it. Well, not without making how the 99% of the playerbase have a tantrum. I mean the invincible trait is insane in itself, but it's needed nowadays just to avoid being vaped even with all defenses up.

    That's why I went with the tiered system that I did. It doesn't change anything in game. All it does it lock the power creep out. Which is the main thing that's killing PvP.

    If you lock out Reputation, Lobi/Lockbox, and Fleet gear. You've taken away some of it.

    If you lock out Starship, Space Rep, Ground Rep, and Active Rep traits. There goes another portion of it.

    If you lock out Specializations, there goes another portion of it.

    This doesn't change any of the abilities from any of that. It just means you can't use them in PvP.

    The only thing here is when you get to Tier 6 and unlock T6 ships. That's when you have to start wondering if allowing start ship traits and such should be allowed. The same could be thought with T5-U ships and the mastery on those ships.

    The toss up on lock outs for gear though, comes in the Rputation and Fleet gear area. But these are all set as high end any how, and really wouldn't becomes part of it until Tier 5 or level 50.
    Mm5NeXy.gif
  • where2r1where2r1 Member Posts: 6,054 Arc User
    edited October 2017
    If you start locking "things" OUT of your PvP game...everything stagnates.
    You can only do so much of the same "skill based" action before it gets dull.

    It is all the new gear, traits, specializations, Rep, Lobi, Lockbox and "things"...
    It's all that "stuff" that keeps things fresh in this game, even if you keep the same ship for years...like I do.

    "Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK

    “Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,839 Arc User
    where2r1 wrote: »
    If you start locking "things" OUT of your PvP game...everything stagnates.
    You can only do so much of the same "skill based" action before it gets dull.

    It is all the new gear, traits, specializations, Rep, Lobi, Lockbox and "things"...
    It's all that "stuff" that keeps things fresh in this game, even if you keep the same ship for years...like I do.

    No I get this. That is why in my original lock out idea, the ability to use this is still there, just as unlocked content through a tier. You know, much like a Fleet Project, just more at the cost of say a reputation project.

    Then if you incorporate @patrickngo's idea in to this. You can come up with Restricted and Unrestricted maps.

    For Example:
    PvP Map 1(Normal) = with lockouts. For a more balanced fight.
    Pvp Map 1(Advanced) = With some things still locked out.
    PvP Map 1(Elite) = Anything goes.

    This makes it the players choice on which one they want to enter. This also means, the projects for the unlocks don't need to be there either. The Normal setting would be the level 1-49 PvP map. Then 50+ would get the Advanced and Elite.

    The only thing I was pointing out in the difference between the systems. His would require that a new character be made and leveled to get the maximum out of this. Mine allows for that. But is also allows a level 60, to reset themselves to a level 1, or level 10, character for the purpose of pvp. This way, an older level 60 character, could be in the Tier 1 bracket, and be at roughly the same power level as a new player. Albeit at slightly more powerful standing, given the access to VR Mk II gear.

    This also means that now every Mk level of gear has a use. Since with my tiered system, a player could keep a level 60 at Tier 1 PvP. This would allow friends and fleet mates to practice and/or help a new player, or fleet member, out with learning pvp. Though to help this out, it would need a tier selection. That way a character could select which tier they wanted to be in once they multiple tiers unlocked.

    This takes into account that some players wouldn't start a new character for the purpose of leveling through PvP.

    We both share the same concern on the reward. The main thing being, how, and with what, do you reward the player? And how do you ensure that it can't be abused?

    Mm5NeXy.gif
  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,844 Arc User
    Problem with your idea is wading into that toxic dump that the PvP community has turned into and cleaning it up. The developers getting involved in this is going to be a real challenge, would it be worth their efforts to try do something with PvP knowing what is ahead of them? The risks of being used and abused is very high not to mention the trash talking going to lethal levels. It seems the risk is a little too high for the developers to go near it.

    What needs to happen is a turn around in the behavior of the PvP community, by making it more welcome and far less toxic. If the developers can see that, there is hope they can come back and put your plan in motion.
    T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW.
    Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,844 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    Problem with your idea is wading into that toxic dump that the PvP community has turned into and cleaning it up. The developers getting involved in this is going to be a real challenge, would it be worth their efforts to try do something with PvP knowing what is ahead of them? The risks of being used and abused is very high not to mention the trash talking going to lethal levels. It seems the risk is a little too high for the developers to go near it.

    What needs to happen is a turn around in the behavior of the PvP community, by making it more welcome and far less toxic. If the developers can see that, there is hope they can come back and put your plan in motion.

    The Developers did a lot to create the toxicity in the PvP community, Mirrorchaos. Consider the community as it was in 2011 or 2012 vice what's left of it now.

    In 2012 PvP was numerically dominated not by the "pros" but by casual players, there was one manual that outlined the basics (iirc Hilbert's guide to PvP), a new player could be viable with Mkxi blue gear on a free ship, fifteen minutes was a LONG wait for queues, and Ker'rat was a going concern not only on multiple instances, but at multiple level brackets from starter levels all the way to endgame.

    you get the community you build for, and in the case of STO's PvP, this is what they built for: a small handful of insular 'experts' and a handful of in-game powertwink trolls-because that's all that stayed through the rampant powercreep, unbalanced mechanics, long-term neglect (it took over a year to get the scoreboard fixed when they stopped showing KDF players at all) and overt developer hostility.

    they drove off most of the 'good' PvP community, what's left are the ones who basically could or would tolerate the conditions they'd created.

    Mistakes happen, even larger mistakes can also happen and i've made a fair few over time. I don't mean to be presumptious but i think we all made some big mistakes at some points in our own lives.

    I'm not looking to come off as an apologist but if you decide to think towards saving the PvP community instead of just venting about what happened in the past, build towards a better future instead and by giving Cryptic the chance to try again. What is the worst that could happen? Things won't get any more worse then they currently are but what if Cryptic did do something a lot better and word gets around.
    T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW.
    Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
  • chronoblitz66chronoblitz66 Member Posts: 36 Arc User
    baudl wrote: »
    I have to agree with patrickngo here...I think he brought up some good points on why PVP at this point is neither open to new players, nor has it anything that makes it worthwhile for players that are genuinely interested in PVP.

    Personally, the sollution and even "easy fix" I see, would be a PVP lineup that asigns specific prebuild ships to players. That way, the severe balancing issues and advantages of the most invested players can be equalized this way. A level playing field for every participant, no matter if he/she is new to the game or not is what is needed, and can only be ensured this way.

    Having the ships set to specific types also means that "historic" lineups are possible, where battles from the TV shows can be reinacted by players vs. players.

    I'd like to see that, but I know that this is beyond what Cryptic has planned for this game, and I accept that.

    I have to agree this idea sample builds already set up but allow variation ie pilot escorts or dread cruisers to the mix as well other wise sounds like a great idea to me.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,844 Arc User
    Thank you for being honest about your thoughts on the subject @patrickngo. I can fully appreciate your point of view more than you know but i was trying to promote some hope, i know it isn't enough but i wanted to try and see if there is a chance of some form of change to give the PvP community a chance considering how slim that chance is.

    It is a shame to see though how jaded a few of us here have really become with STO, i do see it but just planting negativity for the sake of it hasn't worked for me in the past. Thinking that hope is an illusion? But there are times where hope is given a second chance and if you let it, it can pay you back with interest on that day, you just need to pick the right moment to let that guard down and embrace this renewed hope.

    From my own experience about being burned and not letting anything getting close? Eventually it will start getting to you how isolated you really are about what you are doing and eventually you will start to seriously question yourself consistently on the topic. I am concerned if you have left yourself with some positivity in all this despite what you have seen, it would be nice to know that you haven't given up completely.
    T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW.
    Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,839 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    trennan wrote: »
    where2r1 wrote: »
    If you start locking "things" OUT of your PvP game...everything stagnates.
    You can only do so much of the same "skill based" action before it gets dull.

    It is all the new gear, traits, specializations, Rep, Lobi, Lockbox and "things"...
    It's all that "stuff" that keeps things fresh in this game, even if you keep the same ship for years...like I do.

    No I get this. That is why in my original lock out idea, the ability to use this is still there, just as unlocked content through a tier. You know, much like a Fleet Project, just more at the cost of say a reputation project.

    Then if you incorporate @patrickngo's idea in to this. You can come up with Restricted and Unrestricted maps.

    For Example:
    PvP Map 1(Normal) = with lockouts. For a more balanced fight.
    Pvp Map 1(Advanced) = With some things still locked out.
    PvP Map 1(Elite) = Anything goes.

    This makes it the players choice on which one they want to enter. This also means, the projects for the unlocks don't need to be there either. The Normal setting would be the level 1-49 PvP map. Then 50+ would get the Advanced and Elite.

    The only thing I was pointing out in the difference between the systems. His would require that a new character be made and leveled to get the maximum out of this. Mine allows for that. But is also allows a level 60, to reset themselves to a level 1, or level 10, character for the purpose of pvp. This way, an older level 60 character, could be in the Tier 1 bracket, and be at roughly the same power level as a new player. Albeit at slightly more powerful standing, given the access to VR Mk II gear.

    This also means that now every Mk level of gear has a use. Since with my tiered system, a player could keep a level 60 at Tier 1 PvP. This would allow friends and fleet mates to practice and/or help a new player, or fleet member, out with learning pvp. Though to help this out, it would need a tier selection. That way a character could select which tier they wanted to be in once they multiple tiers unlocked.

    This takes into account that some players wouldn't start a new character for the purpose of leveling through PvP.

    We both share the same concern on the reward. The main thing being, how, and with what, do you reward the player? And how do you ensure that it can't be abused?

    the main thrust for why I think it should focus special rewards for low-level players, is that those low-level players are your future in PvP. It's kind of "paying it forward" Most of the genuine horror stories you come across wrt PvP come from players who've maxed their levels and only after that, do they stick a toe in...and proceed to have the worst time in their gaming career.

    My basic approach is that there needs to be a building of community, including the development staff, or PvP will continue to be an embarrassing joke on STO.

    to that end, I honestly believe that locking out certain visual-items-prizes so that they 're only attainable at specific levels or below, will help build that community. Not currencies, but specific items, items you can win only within certain level brackets, but can upgrade freely after obtaining them, single-character unlocks. (I know, it's a naughty concept here)

    Higher level rewards can be Marks, because we've got reps from 50-60, specs from 50-60. The "endgame" is FULL of stuff.

    drowning in it, even.

    I'm working off the real appeal that KHG and MACO gear had before rep systems were implemented-when you saw a toon decked out in full armours with capes and goodies galore, you knew that guy (or gal) had been through it, knew every STF, that this person knows what they're doing in the old Elite content.

    it made those things desirable and valuable in a way that being able to sit th rough a thousand runs of infected space to get the same thing just doesn't.

    Same way with my concept here; when you see that dude or dudette with the "Tier Gear" from leveling with PvP, you can be pretty sure they know what t hey're doing, it gives the person who's earned it a conversation starter and bragging rights that just cranking red alerts endlessly to get competitive rep doesn't.

    as for controlling rewards...

    I mentioned scaling them as one function, the other is the record queue system itself-under my concept, you can't run it from the private match queue. That in turn means that even on "Elite" and top-tier, with four friends, you don't have a guaranteed way to scam the system, which was the abuse people were using before rewards were gutted from PvP in season 7.

    at the lower end, the single/duo and no-private-matches structure prevents arranged match-throwing, and by the time the matchmaking algorithm comes into play, (Level 31 on my list), it's even MORE difficult to scam it.

    you can't make any system 100% cheat-proof, but if you make it inconvenient enough, most opportunistic types will give in and play a fair match instead of trying to game the system.

    The tier system we can both agree on. I'm just looking at while keeping in mind the level 60's that are in game. In both our examples the player can level a new character through it. Which would be...

    Tier 0 - Level 1-9
    Tier 1 - Level 10-19
    Tier 2 - Level 20-29
    Tier 3 - Level 30-39
    Tier 4 - Level 40-49
    Tier 5 - Level 50-59
    Tier 6 - Level 60

    The unlocks I originally mentioned, were not for gear. It was for traits and such. But that is in both our systems. Because with just a basic setup, each time a player gains a trait via leveling, they move up a tier in PvP as well.

    This doesn't work so well for a current level 60 character. But, if they had a Tier Selection, for example, said level 60 wants to participate in the Tier 2 PvP range. They make that selection in a PvP window. Thus, locking them out of everything from Tier 3 and up. This is to prevent people from gearing for a Tier 2 match, then quickly swapping gear to a higher Tier within the map. That's my main focus on the tiered system I suggested. It prevents potential exploits such as that.

    I understand where you're coming from on the appeal of rewards. I was there for it. So going with the old trade-in system.

    Example:
    Tier 0 and Tier 1 PvP Award Tier 1 PvP Trophies.

    Tier 0 PvP Ground Armor costs X amount of Trophies.
    Tier 1 PvP Ground Armor costs X amount of Trophies and the Tier 0 PvP Ground Armor.


    This means there would be accolades for collecting each tier of gear, like the with MACO/Omega/HKG back in the day. This trade in style, plus the accolades, would award tailor unlocks and titles. This also means they could add the MACO/Omega/HKG Mk X and XI gear as a trade in reward for the higher tiers, thus allowing the players to complete those old accolades. This also allows the player to collect all the Tier Gear pieces. They could even institute an Armory system. An inventory of shorts for collected gear, which could possibly be viewed by other players.

    An easier way to prevent the exploitation of the reward system, would be to simply make Private matches give no reward. This would then make the private challenges the practice/training and build testing grounds. Would it still be possible to exploit the reward for the public queue system. Yes, it would. But then it would be a public queue, which means the report function for such things would be available for use. Granted it would require that a Game Master review said reports. Which they do review them. Since I've heard of some players that have been banned. This is hearsay on my part, I cannot say whether or not is it actually true. I'm just using it as an example that the GM's do review the player reports. But then, this requires the community to do the actual reporting.

    The record queues you mentioned, would be the best way to go on rewards. But, that would be getting into the Rated PvP. Which would be a step farther down the line. Right now, it's about resuscitating PvP from it's current state of "on life support." But as a basis here, a counter for PvP wins and losses would be a good start.

    While I do like your tiered setup. There is one problem with it, it requires that there are maps available for it. There are only a few PvP maps in game. They would have to make the maps for some of your ideas. Right now, I'm looking at using what's in game, to get PvP back up and active. Then from here, they could progress with working toward something akin to your idea. If the assets were already ingame, I'd have no problems going with your idea. But remember, we're working with bare minimum that was originally put ingame and left alone. So, starting out, we also have to keep in mind production time and costs. I know, as a player, not something one would normally think about.

    Right now, the cheapest, and likely fastest means of starting down this path. Would be to use my Tiered system and your Normal, Advanced, Elite Map System.

    Of course with "Victory is Life" expansion coming next year, we could both be sitting on our thumbs. As they may have their own idea of what they want to do with PvP with this expansion. I'm not saying they do. Just that it is a possibility.

    As @mirrorchaos pointed out. We all make mistakes. It's how we learn and grow, and progress toward the future. Can the blame be cast about? Yes. Some at the Developers and some at the players. But that's a child's game that does nothing to help the actual problem.
    Mm5NeXy.gif
  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,839 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    Thank you for being honest about your thoughts on the subject @patrickngo. I can fully appreciate your point of view more than you know but i was trying to promote some hope, i know it isn't enough but i wanted to try and see if there is a chance of some form of change to give the PvP community a chance considering how slim that chance is.

    It is a shame to see though how jaded a few of us here have really become with STO, i do see it but just planting negativity for the sake of it hasn't worked for me in the past. Thinking that hope is an illusion? But there are times where hope is given a second chance and if you let it, it can pay you back with interest on that day, you just need to pick the right moment to let that guard down and embrace this renewed hope.

    From my own experience about being burned and not letting anything getting close? Eventually it will start getting to you how isolated you really are about what you are doing and eventually you will start to seriously question yourself consistently on the topic. I am concerned if you have left yourself with some positivity in all this despite what you have seen, it would be nice to know that you haven't given up completely.

    At this point I can't really offer much for that hope, Mirror. in 2015, a group of us did a research project using things like employment advertisements, man-hours estimates, and other long, boring business grinding sources to build an estimate on what it would most likely cost to rebuild PvP into something viable.

    this included things like queue design, map-making, systems, and coding to put it together.

    when the process passed $10M, we stopped.

    we weren't even halfway done, and it was already projecting as something insanely expensive. Teh man-hours just to get through the existing abilities at that time to debug every piece of then-existing gear, check for interactions, and establish reasonable balancing was somewhere in the thousands of hours-this isn't accounting for all that's been added since.

    Queue design as we've seen, takes hundreds to thousands of hours of work, debugging, and integration. Maps end up being the cheapest route, but any mechanic on a map has to be debugged and integrated as well.

    doing a "Fixed loadout vanilla" version and you've got to make new versions of every ship in the game, and there are a LOT of ships,

    There no longer exists enough audience to pay the bills for any of it. Had things been managed differently, most of that cost would've been amortized over time, many of the necessary jobs to fix it mechanically wouldn't even need to have been made-but there's the flip side of that. STO has outlasted most of it's peers and at seven years old, it's beaten the average three times over for an MMO, which makes the business case even more difficult to build and present.

    without a business case, no funding, no funding, and nothing changes without intense personal commitment at the developer level...

    and with the main decision makers being who they are, that's not going to happen.

    This is why I'm not looking for an immediate fix. Sure, if you have the resources, this would be the way to go. But, as Cryptic doesn't have these resources, then you have to look at it with that limiting factor. This means, look at what we already have and what can be done to help that. The key here is to start small, with something that doesn't take a lot of development.

    Ok, there are PvP maps already in game. Those can be used and then other can be added later. Just like any new map they come up with.

    Ships, well, there are already plenty of those in game. So, that takes care of that.

    The same with gear and traits.

    So, what could be done to help this, that's already in game?

    Well, the Tiered System I mentioned. It's the exact same as leveling a character. So that's just coding in a Tier Selection and map lockouts for that. This way new and old characters can use the system.

    The Lock outs we know can be done. Just create a new character and hit U. The lock outs are there. For maps, Risa has ability lock outs built into it. But this wouldn't be a map lockout.

    Oh wait... if they make it Tiered, like a Reputation or Fleet Holding, then everyone starts at Tier 0. Or they could have all the tiers equal to that character's current level and just be able to select which tier, or level, they want to PvP at.

    Leveling a character provides access to Skill Points, Traits, Higher Tier Gear Mk's, Ships, and Specialization Points. The tiered system just provides a PvP level lock for this. For example, selecting Tier 3 for PvP, would mean that character now has everything a level 30-39 character would have. That would be the Starting Traits, Level 10 trait, level 20 trait, level 30 trait, up to Tier 3 ships, and Mk VI-VII gear. All of which are already in-game.

    The only thing not in game is the Tiered system to provide the level locks. The thing here, where I foresee the majority of people complaining, would be that all T6 ships would be locked to T6 PvP and T5 and T5-U ships would be locked to Tier 5 PvP.

    This would be the very basic thing to put in-game. Since it contains the power creep to the Tier 5 and 6 PvP. This would be to allow the player to get in, get a feel for the new system and such. Minimal rewards starting out, basically the PvP rewards we have not. But instead of having to win 15 matches to get. You can now do 3 of 5 wins, public queue only.

    Again, allowing the players to get a feel for it, and see how lively it becomes. Because the one thing you can count on here. If there's a bug, skill imbalance, or exploit then the players will be sure to let them be known. Then, if PvP becomes more active, they can start working toward adding more stuff for it.

    This is with the minimal investment of just making the Tiered Selection for PvP, since everything else is already in-game. This is one of those start small and move forward one step at time problems.

    The next step from here could be adding in the Advanced and Elite versions you mentioned.

    And since it also cuts out the power creep. It also has to potential to bring back the older players that left, as well as pull in newer players.
    Mm5NeXy.gif
  • nimbullnimbull Member Posts: 1,564 Arc User
    Hahahaha

    ^ This... the only E-sport in this game is how fast you can open lock boxes to sate that gambling addiction.
    Green people don't have to be.... little.
  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,839 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    trennan wrote: »
    patrickngo wrote: »
    Thank you for being honest about your thoughts on the subject @patrickngo. I can fully appreciate your point of view more than you know but i was trying to promote some hope, i know it isn't enough but i wanted to try and see if there is a chance of some form of change to give the PvP community a chance considering how slim that chance is.

    It is a shame to see though how jaded a few of us here have really become with STO, i do see it but just planting negativity for the sake of it hasn't worked for me in the past. Thinking that hope is an illusion? But there are times where hope is given a second chance and if you let it, it can pay you back with interest on that day, you just need to pick the right moment to let that guard down and embrace this renewed hope.

    From my own experience about being burned and not letting anything getting close? Eventually it will start getting to you how isolated you really are about what you are doing and eventually you will start to seriously question yourself consistently on the topic. I am concerned if you have left yourself with some positivity in all this despite what you have seen, it would be nice to know that you haven't given up completely.

    At this point I can't really offer much for that hope, Mirror. in 2015, a group of us did a research project using things like employment advertisements, man-hours estimates, and other long, boring business grinding sources to build an estimate on what it would most likely cost to rebuild PvP into something viable.

    this included things like queue design, map-making, systems, and coding to put it together.

    when the process passed $10M, we stopped.

    we weren't even halfway done, and it was already projecting as something insanely expensive. Teh man-hours just to get through the existing abilities at that time to debug every piece of then-existing gear, check for interactions, and establish reasonable balancing was somewhere in the thousands of hours-this isn't accounting for all that's been added since.

    Queue design as we've seen, takes hundreds to thousands of hours of work, debugging, and integration. Maps end up being the cheapest route, but any mechanic on a map has to be debugged and integrated as well.

    doing a "Fixed loadout vanilla" version and you've got to make new versions of every ship in the game, and there are a LOT of ships,

    There no longer exists enough audience to pay the bills for any of it. Had things been managed differently, most of that cost would've been amortized over time, many of the necessary jobs to fix it mechanically wouldn't even need to have been made-but there's the flip side of that. STO has outlasted most of it's peers and at seven years old, it's beaten the average three times over for an MMO, which makes the business case even more difficult to build and present.

    without a business case, no funding, no funding, and nothing changes without intense personal commitment at the developer level...

    and with the main decision makers being who they are, that's not going to happen.

    This is why I'm not looking for an immediate fix. Sure, if you have the resources, this would be the way to go. But, as Cryptic doesn't have these resources, then you have to look at it with that limiting factor. This means, look at what we already have and what can be done to help that. The key here is to start small, with something that doesn't take a lot of development.

    Ok, there are PvP maps already in game. Those can be used and then other can be added later. Just like any new map they come up with.

    Ships, well, there are already plenty of those in game. So, that takes care of that.

    The same with gear and traits.

    So, what could be done to help this, that's already in game?

    Well, the Tiered System I mentioned. It's the exact same as leveling a character. So that's just coding in a Tier Selection and map lockouts for that. This way new and old characters can use the system.

    The Lock outs we know can be done. Just create a new character and hit U. The lock outs are there. For maps, Risa has ability lock outs built into it. But this wouldn't be a map lockout.

    Oh wait... if they make it Tiered, like a Reputation or Fleet Holding, then everyone starts at Tier 0. Or they could have all the tiers equal to that character's current level and just be able to select which tier, or level, they want to PvP at.

    Leveling a character provides access to Skill Points, Traits, Higher Tier Gear Mk's, Ships, and Specialization Points. The tiered system just provides a PvP level lock for this. For example, selecting Tier 3 for PvP, would mean that character now has everything a level 30-39 character would have. That would be the Starting Traits, Level 10 trait, level 20 trait, level 30 trait, up to Tier 3 ships, and Mk VI-VII gear. All of which are already in-game.

    The only thing not in game is the Tiered system to provide the level locks. The thing here, where I foresee the majority of people complaining, would be that all T6 ships would be locked to T6 PvP and T5 and T5-U ships would be locked to Tier 5 PvP.

    This would be the very basic thing to put in-game. Since it contains the power creep to the Tier 5 and 6 PvP. This would be to allow the player to get in, get a feel for the new system and such. Minimal rewards starting out, basically the PvP rewards we have not. But instead of having to win 15 matches to get. You can now do 3 of 5 wins, public queue only.

    Again, allowing the players to get a feel for it, and see how lively it becomes. Because the one thing you can count on here. If there's a bug, skill imbalance, or exploit then the players will be sure to let them be known. Then, if PvP becomes more active, they can start working toward adding more stuff for it.

    This is with the minimal investment of just making the Tiered Selection for PvP, since everything else is already in-game. This is one of those start small and move forward one step at time problems.

    The next step from here could be adding in the Advanced and Elite versions you mentioned.

    And since it also cuts out the power creep. It also has to potential to bring back the older players that left, as well as pull in newer players.

    the problem is, hte problems are systemic, as was blatantly visible with the over-reaction to the Spartan Balance Pass, getting any element through the phalanx of legions of the targeted demographic, to get it to stick in the first place, is going to be an expensive undertaking that could destabilize the game in wholly different ways.\

    you have to remember: the favourite boogeyman and scapegoat for the vocal majority when the devs change something away from the FAW-your-way-to-Vik-to-ree is PvP. any actual effort to implement even mild changes (even changes that don't impact PvE) is going to draw the ire of protestors and protesterettes who, for the most part, share Geko's negative view of PvP as an activity and Pvp Players as People (or rather, in their shared view, 'nonpersons' or 'undesirables'.)

    the odds are strongest that any proposed alteration will be rolled back as soon as the appropriate (Geko or Borticus) person comes back from accepting their annual award for "best MMO game" from MassivelyOP..

    Yes, we all know this. That's why I'm saying to start with just the tiered system. This doesn't change anything in the game. Just applies a set of limitations that the player themselves can choose from.

    As you said, the first step is building a community. The DPS style would still be there, so there wouldn't be anything for them to complain about. Well, aside maybe fewer targets, depending on what Tier everyone else chooses to PvP at. This means that any blame that people would cast at the Dev's for it, would be nothing to pay attention to. As it wouldn't be the dev's forcing people to PvP at any given tier.

    And while Al Riviera, aka CaptainGeko, does have slight bias toward PvE, due to the event surrounding the release of the Excelsior. But it is nothing that can't be worked around. We all have to remember, at the time, the PvP in-game was more balanced. But it was still a new part of the game. It wasn't fully developed at the time. We still have that same underdeveloped system.

    And PvP is highly important to PvE. PvP in an MMO is where the majority of balancing comes from. Take the recent change to Proton damage as an example here. We the players and the dev's can all admit, the balancing is way out of whack, even for PvE. Again the recent change to proton damage and the balancing patch that was released says this.

    Even the new Miracle Worker Specialization says this. As we're seeing new things that haven't been in game before. If you look over the new spec, you'll see it gives, Critical Resistance. This is actually a new addition to the game. Because it's the first thing to give it. This goes against the current meta of stacking [CritD].

    One of the things you have to take in to account here. Due to the toxicity of the community. The developers do not generally address posts and complaints, instead they let the patch notes and such speak for them.
    Mm5NeXy.gif
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