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[STAR TREK DiSCOVERY] S01E03 Context is for Kings | REViEWS

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  • smokebaileysmokebailey Member Posts: 4,668 Arc User
    szim wrote: »
    i also noticed above that someone brought up
    a fungus-powered warp drive

    i'm assuming that's the reason for having the **** fungal expert aboard (by the way, does this guy have a name? i'd prefer to use that instead of constantly using attribute descriptors) so hopefully that means he WON'T end up being a token character just stuck in the show for the sake of 'muh inclusiveness!'​​

    Lieutenant Stamets. I'm not sure about this whole inclusiveness issue. Both Commander Burnham and Lieutenant Stamets didn't come across as very likable characters so far.

    I actually found Stamets rather likable, he's a scientist who was conscripted into weapons development and is bitter about it. He wants to further our scientific understanding, not help an aggressive Captain wage a war.

    Yep, he's someone I can like.
    dvZq2Aj.jpg
  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,963 Arc User
    Kobayashi Maru (B)
    szim wrote: »
    I would have given the two pilot episodes a 5/10. Despite the very unlikeable lead character there were still enough elements of classic Star Trek to keep me interested. But in episode 3 they really managed to turn the show into yet another generic, dystopian scify show. Remove the Starfleet deltas and the ship shapes and you wouldn't be able to identify it as Star Trek. 2/10.
    Gore, the head of security calling the prisoners 'animals' and 'garbage' and letting them fight it out among themselves without intervening, creatures that seem to be used as bioweapons, a ruthless and manipulative captain, an insubordinate lieutenant during wartime(!), destroying a highly advanced Starfleet vessel together with 300 dead bodies because "it's just a ship". I don't know what to say... It was awful.

    What bothers me as well is a distinct lack of likeable and relatable characters. There was Captain Georgiou, who's now dead. And Admiral whats-his-name who's dead as well. We are three episodes in and the only character I like and who's still around is Saru, the science officer/first officer of the Discovery. Everybody else - including the lead character commander Burnham - could die in the next episode and I couldn't care less.

    I haven't given up on Discovery just yet. But if they continue to go down this dark and grim path I certainly will.
    valoreah wrote: »
    Where are you getting "grimdark" from? Humans clearly evolved beyond our own differences, survived the Eugenics Wars and WWIII, the Federation was formed and Starfleet is out and about exploring the galaxy. Is that all grimdark too?

    I actually prefer that it's not a written as a light-hearted action-comedy. For crying out loud, there's a war going on. Throw your Call of Duty out the window: war is not a game. It's not fun and shouldn't be portrayed as such in fiction: it's a bloody, horrible, unpleasant business that brings out the nastiest side of our nature, though it is still sometimes necessary.

    Fittingly, Chuck Sonnenburg over at SF Debris just reviewed "A Taste of Armageddon", an episode which I think raises a very salient point. We've managed to do with modern technology something very like the Eminians and Vendikari: we've sanitized war, made it so we can fight nigh-perpetual wars "over there" without really feeling it much at home. (Seriously, anybody remember tire and scrap metal drives for the war in Afghanistan? I sure don't, but they did those for World War II.)
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
    — Sabaton, "Great War"
    VZ9ASdg.png

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  • smokebaileysmokebailey Member Posts: 4,668 Arc User
    Lots of TOS influences, woot.
    Some of the devices, not to mention the backgrounds with that spore thing. V |^_^\
    dvZq2Aj.jpg
  • hawku001xhawku001x Member Posts: 10,767 Arc User
    My stuff:
    • I want a wallpaper of that shushing Klingon.
    • Maybe those black-badged people are MACO?
    • Lorca wants to use that epohh as a deploy-able ground weapon against Klingons.

    I've been reading the Discovery novel "Desperate Hours" and they rationalize the Enterprise, a pristine, clean-looking ship, as being so advanced and new that it doesn't need all the gritty devices of the Shenzhou (including Ready Rooms for some reason). So, when they called the Discovery brand new, I thought it was contradictory. Then again, maybe the Enterprise is just a part of a pristine fleet of ship classes, and Discovery isn't.
  • smokebaileysmokebailey Member Posts: 4,668 Arc User
    [/quote]
    hawku001x wrote: »
    My stuff:
    • I want a wallpaper of that shushing Klingon.
    • Maybe those black-badged people are MACO?
    • Lorca wants to use that epohh as a deploy-able ground weapon against Klingons.

    I've been reading the Discovery novel "Desperate Hours" and they rationalize the Enterprise, a pristine, clean-looking ship, as being so advanced and new that it doesn't need all the gritty devices of the Shenzhou (including Ready Rooms for some reason). So, when they called the Discovery brand new, I thought it was contradictory. Then again, maybe the Enterprise is just a part of a pristine fleet of ship classes, and Discovery isn't.

    I think they are more Section 31 or other black op knuckle draggers.
    dvZq2Aj.jpg
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    it's a Novel (A+)
    This series has really started strong and keeps getting stronger. Even DS9 didn't get good until series 3. I do think this is the best opening three episodes of all the shows.

    Plus (excluding the camerawork, toned down for E3 admittedly) the production values for DSC so far have been fantastic. Set design, scripting, acting (well Micheal's accent annoys me), dialogue, character work, all superior to the other shows at the same point.

    Discovery herself seems to be a science vessel working for Starfleet Intelligence (the black badges). There may be S31 personnel onboard but I doubt it's a S31 ship, they tend to work in groups only on their own ships or bases.​​
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
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  • redvengeredvenge Member Posts: 1,425 Arc User
    highlord83 wrote: »
    valoreah wrote: »
    Where are you getting "grimdark" from? Humans clearly evolved beyond our own differences, survived the Eugenics Wars and WWIII, the Federation was formed and Starfleet is out and about exploring the galaxy. Is that all grimdark too?

    It's not first-season TNG, therefore to the screaming purists it's "grimdark" and "NOTMYTREK."
    Alternatively, it might be because the shows writers described it as "the darkest, most serious Trek yet" in an interview where they were talking about Game of Thrones being a major influence on the writing.
  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,556 Arc User
    edited October 2017
    redvenge wrote: »
    highlord83 wrote: »
    valoreah wrote: »
    Where are you getting "grimdark" from? Humans clearly evolved beyond our own differences, survived the Eugenics Wars and WWIII, the Federation was formed and Starfleet is out and about exploring the galaxy. Is that all grimdark too?

    It's not first-season TNG, therefore to the screaming purists it's "grimdark" and "NOTMYTREK."
    Alternatively, it might be because the shows writers described it as "the darkest, most serious Trek yet" in an interview where they were talking about Game of Thrones being a major influence on the writing.

    And some Star Trek fans don't want "the darkest, most serious Trek yet" due to how much better Orville is as a Star Trek series. There is more in common with Orville and TOS compared to TOS and Discovery.
  • szimszim Member Posts: 2,503 Arc User
    M-5 (F)
    redvenge wrote: »
    highlord83 wrote: »
    valoreah wrote: »
    Where are you getting "grimdark" from? Humans clearly evolved beyond our own differences, survived the Eugenics Wars and WWIII, the Federation was formed and Starfleet is out and about exploring the galaxy. Is that all grimdark too?

    It's not first-season TNG, therefore to the screaming purists it's "grimdark" and "NOTMYTREK."
    Alternatively, it might be because the shows writers described it as "the darkest, most serious Trek yet" in an interview where they were talking about Game of Thrones being a major influence on the writing.

    And that's exactly my issue here. What's left that makes this version of Star Trek different from any other scify show out there? I admit, the CGI is one of the best I've ever seen in a TV show, but what else? This could have easily been an episode of The Expanse or any other grim version of the future.

    It's not just the war itself. It's how the main characters handle the situation. We had war in DS9 and ENT as well, and it went to very dark places. But our lead characters never fully abandonded their believes and morals. Not even in DS9's 'In the Pale Moonlight'. In Discovery we have a Captain who doesn't really care about all that. "Universal law is for lackeys. Context is for kings." In other words he will do anything and everything - legal or not, morally questionable or not - to reach his goals. He's basically an anti-Picard. And he recruited Burnham because given her past, he believes she thinks exactly the same way.

    We shall see whether Burnham is going to stay true to her Starfleet principles as she claimed. But that would mean she would ultimately have to defy or even overthrow Captain Lorca.
  • shevetshevet Member Posts: 1,667 Arc User
    Kobayashi Maru (B)
    I liked this one. Captain Lorca is clearly bonkers, but bonkers in interesting ways. He could drive the ship into all kinds of trouble, and hence drive the plot in interesting ways.

    I was relieved to see they didn't punch some giant reset button, and Burnham is having to live with the consequences of her actions. I rather like Burnham, as a character. She's fallible, and she learns from her mistakes. Fallible makes her believable, learning makes her likeable. YMMV.
    8b6YIel.png?1
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    xceptopec wrote: »
    On the matter of Burnham, I found it highly suspect that Starfleet would permit a convicted mutineer to wear a Delta after their court-martial. Not to forget that the Delta in the TOS ear was specific only to Enterprise, the Delta did not become the fleet insignia until some point between TOS and The Motion Picture.
    It was always intended for the Delta to be the Starfleet symbol, as proudction notes show. There are instances where it was not used for crews of other ships. In one case, it was intentional, because the ship wasn't a Starfleet vessel, in another case it wasn'T. But there are also scenes where it was used for non-Enterprise personal.

    And I think she might "get" to wear that symbol because she's a prisoner due to Starfleet laws, not general law. The facility she is supposed to be imprisoned in would normally probably also be a Starfleet prison, and thus use different "uniforms" for its inmates.
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  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    szim wrote: »
    redvenge wrote: »
    highlord83 wrote: »
    valoreah wrote: »
    Where are you getting "grimdark" from? Humans clearly evolved beyond our own differences, survived the Eugenics Wars and WWIII, the Federation was formed and Starfleet is out and about exploring the galaxy. Is that all grimdark too?

    It's not first-season TNG, therefore to the screaming purists it's "grimdark" and "NOTMYTREK."
    Alternatively, it might be because the shows writers described it as "the darkest, most serious Trek yet" in an interview where they were talking about Game of Thrones being a major influence on the writing.

    And that's exactly my issue here. What's left that makes this version of Star Trek different from any other scify show out there? I admit, the CGI is one of the best I've ever seen in a TV show, but what else? This could have easily been an episode of The Expanse or any other grim version of the future.

    It's not just the war itself. It's how the main characters handle the situation. We had war in DS9 and ENT as well, and it went to very dark places. But our lead characters never fully abandonded their believes and morals. Not even in DS9's 'In the Pale Moonlight'. In Discovery we have a Captain who doesn't really care about all that. "Universal law is for lackeys. Context is for kings." In other words he will do anything and everything - legal or not, morally questionable or not - to reach his goals. He's basically an anti-Picard. And he recruited Burnham because given her past, he believes she thinks exactly the same way.

    We shall see whether Burnham is going to stay true to her Starfleet principles as she claimed. But that would mean she would ultimately have to defy or even overthrow Captain Lorca.

    I can only speculate where they are going, but I would say the goal is to not hide that Lorca is not following the ideals of Star Trek, and showing how they manage to overcome this and get back on the "right" track. (It might involve Lorca losing his post... As far as I know, Isaacs is glad if he doesn't stay on the same job and the same character for too long...)


    I hope we'll see a Captain Saru at some point, because after a black and a female captain, it might be time for an alien captain.
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  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,963 Arc User
    Kobayashi Maru (B)
    > @szim said:

    > And that's exactly my issue here. What's left that makes this version of Star Trek different from any other scify show out there? I admit, the CGI is one of the best I've ever seen in a TV show, but what else? This could have easily been an episode of The Expanse or any other grim version of the future.
    >
    > It's not just the war itself. It's how the main characters handle the situation. We had war in DS9 and ENT as well, and it went to very dark places. But our lead characters never fully abandonded their believes and morals. Not even in DS9's 'In the Pale Moonlight'. In Discovery we have a Captain who doesn't really care about all that. "Universal law is for lackeys. Context is for kings." In other words he will do anything and everything - legal or not, morally questionable or not - to reach his goals. He's basically an anti-Picard. And he recruited Burnham because given her past, he believes she thinks exactly the same way.
    >
    > We shall see whether Burnham is going to stay true to her Starfleet principles as she claimed. But that would mean she would ultimately have to defy or even overthrow Captain Lorca.

    That may indeed be where they're planning to go. BUT, there's a bit of a fault in your argument.

    See, "universal law is for lackeys context is for kings", though admittedly somewhat classist in phrasing, is not QUITE the same statement as "the ends justify the means". It's an observation that the situation in which an action takes place has an effect on it's justifiability.

    You could, for example, take that statement and apply it to the Prime Directive: interfering in other cultures is USUALLY wrong, but then we have Kirk and Spock arguing in "For the World Is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky" that completely upending a culture's perception of the world is acceptable, with all the unrest that may cause, in the CONTEXT that the other outcome is doing nothing and letting a species go extinct entirely.
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
    — Sabaton, "Great War"
    VZ9ASdg.png

    Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
  • szimszim Member Posts: 2,503 Arc User
    M-5 (F)
    starswordc wrote: »
    That may indeed be where they're planning to go. BUT, there's a bit of a fault in your argument.

    See, "universal law is for lackeys context is for kings", though admittedly somewhat classist in phrasing, is not QUITE the same statement as "the ends justify the means". It's an observation that the situation in which an action takes place has an effect on it's justifiability.

    You could, for example, take that statement and apply it to the Prime Directive: interfering in other cultures is USUALLY wrong, but then we have Kirk and Spock arguing in "For the World Is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky" that completely upending a culture's perception of the world is acceptable, with all the unrest that may cause, in the CONTEXT that the other outcome is doing nothing and letting a species go extinct entirely.

    While you might be correct about that I didn't get the impression that Lorca meant it quite that way. Judging by that one episode I would definitely characterize him as somebody who doesn't spend much time thinking about right and wrong when it comes to means.

    From what we know he diverted a prison shuttle to get Burnham aboard the Discovery, killing the pilot in the process. But there are further clues. When his chief of security assures him that she would do whatever is necessary. Or when he comments the destruction of the USS Glen with "Just a ship." Or even the fact that he would transport the creature aboard the Discovery instead of blowing it up with the rest of the ship. Somehow I don't think he had purely scientific reasons.

    If what we think is true and the Discovery is indeed a Section 31 ship, Lorca's ruthlessness wouldn't come as a surprise. We know for a fact that Section 31 won't be stopped by anything or anyone. It's an organization that is pretty much build on the principle 'the ends justify the means'.
  • hawku001xhawku001x Member Posts: 10,767 Arc User
    edited October 2017
    You know what? Michael is going to need to mutiny again. :D
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    szim wrote: »
    starswordc wrote: »
    That may indeed be where they're planning to go. BUT, there's a bit of a fault in your argument.

    See, "universal law is for lackeys context is for kings", though admittedly somewhat classist in phrasing, is not QUITE the same statement as "the ends justify the means". It's an observation that the situation in which an action takes place has an effect on it's justifiability.

    You could, for example, take that statement and apply it to the Prime Directive: interfering in other cultures is USUALLY wrong, but then we have Kirk and Spock arguing in "For the World Is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky" that completely upending a culture's perception of the world is acceptable, with all the unrest that may cause, in the CONTEXT that the other outcome is doing nothing and letting a species go extinct entirely.

    While you might be correct about that I didn't get the impression that Lorca meant it quite that way. Judging by that one episode I would definitely characterize him as somebody who doesn't spend much time thinking about right and wrong when it comes to means.

    From what we know he diverted a prison shuttle to get Burnham aboard the Discovery, killing the pilot in the process.
    It's not sure what happened to the pilot. There was a call to the medbay when the shuttle landed, she might have been beamed aboard.
    But there are further clues. When his chief of security assures him that she would do whatever is necessary. Or when he comments the destruction of the USS Glen with "Just a ship."
    I noticed he said: "Just a ship" not "Just a ship, the crew is what's important" or something like that. Maybe he implied it, but maybe not.
    If what we think is true and the Discovery is indeed a Section 31 ship, Lorca's ruthlessness wouldn't come as a surprise. We know for a fact that Section 31 won't be stopped by anything or anyone. It's an organization that is pretty much build on the principle 'the ends justify the means'.
    I think that might be true. It could be just a Starfleet Intelligence operation...
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  • hawku001xhawku001x Member Posts: 10,767 Arc User
    hawku001x wrote: »
    • I want a wallpaper of that shushing Klingon.

    Screencapped it:

    shush_klingon2.jpg
  • irm1963irm1963 Member Posts: 682 Arc User
    Kobayashi Maru (B)
    I can see that getting a lot of use when certain people post :)
  • lordgyorlordgyor Member Posts: 2,820 Arc User
    it's a Novel (A+)
    The pilot died, you see her floating away out side the prison shuttle craft.
  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,963 Arc User
    Kobayashi Maru (B)
    > @lordgyor said:
    > The pilot died, you see her floating away out side the prison shuttle craft.

    She had a spacesuit on, that doesn't prove anything.
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
    — Sabaton, "Great War"
    VZ9ASdg.png

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  • irm1963irm1963 Member Posts: 682 Arc User
    Kobayashi Maru (B)
    I'm still not convinced the shuttle got home intact anyway, so it might not matter.
  • lordgyorlordgyor Member Posts: 2,820 Arc User
    it's a Novel (A+)
    > @starswordc said:
    > > @lordgyor said:
    > > The pilot died, you see her floating away out side the prison shuttle craft.
    >
    > She had a spacesuit on, that doesn't prove anything.

    Good point.
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  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,963 Arc User
    Kobayashi Maru (B)
    > @patrickngo said:
    > starswordc wrote: »
    >
    > > @lordgyor said:
    > > The pilot died, you see her floating away out side the prison shuttle craft.
    >
    > She had a spacesuit on, that doesn't prove anything.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > so she dies slower as the batteries fail, alone and practically invisible, unimaginably far from help. Great thought there.

    Or, since the Discovery is within thirty seconds on a straight-line course from where she fell off, she got rescued offscreen.
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
    — Sabaton, "Great War"
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  • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 37,282 Arc User
    so...no one noticed the obelisk?​​
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  • redvengeredvenge Member Posts: 1,425 Arc User
    so...no one noticed the obelisk?​​
    It add nothing to the story or the plot. Much like the Gorn skeleton or the Cardassian vole-thingy or the plant from the Gamma quadrant or the tribble.

    In fact, if the tribble is being used as a "Klingon Assassin Detector", the tribble may have MORE significance than the obelisk.
  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,844 Arc User
    valoreah wrote: »

    This is more or less what i thought of Lorca on first thoughts. Anyone is a chess piece on the board and Lorca will sacrifice some pieces to win the war.
    redvenge wrote: »
    so...no one noticed the obelisk?​​
    It add nothing to the story or the plot. Much like the Gorn skeleton or the Cardassian vole-thingy or the plant from the Gamma quadrant or the tribble.

    In fact, if the tribble is being used as a "Klingon Assassin Detector", the tribble may have MORE significance than the obelisk.

    it added nothing yet, but those preservers could have storage areas that could contain all sorts of neat stuff Lorca would love to get a team on and use it as a gain in some form.
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  • toivatoiva Member Posts: 3,276 Arc User
    Red Alert (E)
    Hmm, decent "The Expanse: J.J. Trek Edition".

    It's just too far removed from Star Trek. Both in themes and the cinematography. It still could be salvaged, but it requires wilder and wilder speculation (basically Lorca and Discovery need to be stopped, all research ended and classified - and I don't know how the heck to fix the Klingons).
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