The problem is that people look online for builds and all they see are the popular weapons, consoles and sets. You do not need to use those to enjoy end game content.
Spot on. Some of the worst players that whine the most, tend to be using some build they copied from a forum. No creativity = boredom.
Considering how many players suck big times with their “I don’t need that stuff at all to enjoy the game” builds I wish more would do a little research on what works and what not before becoming too creative.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
Considering how many players suck big times with their “I don’t need that stuff at all to enjoy the game” builds I wish more would do a little research on what works and what not before becoming too creative.
Considering how many players suck big times with their “I don’t need that stuff at all to enjoy the game” builds I wish more would do a little research on what works and what not before becoming too creative.
Agreed 100%
The only way to "suck big time" in this game is to not have any fun playing. If a player enjoys taking ten minutes each taking down NPC escorts and 45 minutes plus fighting a Dread, then they are much better at this game than the player who vaporizes anything in seconds but is bored with playing.
That being said, that first player going into advanced or elite ques with thier sub 1K dps ship, yep, they suck big time.
That uber DPS player pugging normals also sucks big time.
We don't have enough versatility to make our own builds? I'll have to disagree here. As I toy around with this A LOT. Right now, I've created an "assassin" build that when tested, Critted for 3200+ on another player with a Mk XII UR ground weapon. But this is my forte. Since, STO has allowed it. But, I'm weird, I go by how the shows were on space content. 80% on ship/ground, 20% space combat.
And yes, builds, space or ground, are a daunting task, because there is a lot to think about with them. Setting a ship up to do damage is the easiest thing in the game. Plenty of cardboard cutout builds for that, just head over to reddit. But when you're talking making a build. Yes, there is a lot of work to be done. For a space I'll list off the things you have to think about, and investigate.
Ship Build List Thought Track:
Ship
Weapon Type
Weapon Energy Type
Impulse Engines
Warp Core
Deflector Dish
Secondary Deflector, if the ship has one.
Science Consoles
Engineering Consoles
Tactical Consoles
Universal Consoles
Devices
Skill Tree
Specializations
Personal Space Traits
Starship Traits
Space Reputation Traits
Active Reputation Traits
Boffs
Boff Skills
Active Space Doffs.
Now, without any set bonuses or mods. That's still a pretty daunting list. You start there, then it's looking at what stats and mods on which parts would be best for the build you're going for.
The same goes for ground as well.
Ground Build List Thought Track:
Kit
Kit Modules
Armor
Personal Shield
Weapon
Secondary Weapon
Skill Tree
Specializations
Personal Ground Traits
Ground Reputation Traits
Active Reputation Traits
Devices
Now, you may think that you need a T5 or T6 ship. Not really, my first T5 or higher ship is the Vorgon Xyfius Heavy Escort from the Summer Event last year. My only other T6 ship is the Lukari. I have some T5-U's I could use, that I bought off the exchange. But I bought those after I got the Vorgon. So I've played everything up to the Summer Event last year in the old T4 Patrol Escort you get at level 40. And at the time it was still setup in MK XII UR gear. I didn't start upgrading past that, until the first Arena of Sompek Event of this year.
Considering how many players suck big times with their “I don’t need that stuff at all to enjoy the game” builds I wish more would do a little research on what works and what not before becoming too creative.
I don't think those players really complain though. They're having fun; let them. That's not being a terrible player. Terrible is copying a build found somewhere but not knowing how or why it works. In that situation, making a change can ruin the setup - hence then a complaint about build choices available, because they can only get the copied builds working properly and not one of their own. So I agree with you on people doing research, but the "just having fun" players aren't the ones that suck.
Considering how many players suck big times with their “I don’t need that stuff at all to enjoy the game” builds I wish more would do a little research on what works and what not before becoming too creative.
And how is "what works" determined pray tell? Yes, nobody wants a sub par rainbow boat in an elite STF. I get that. But to state that people should only use "what works" is not only wrong, it smacks of elitism. If someone wants to use Phasers instead of AntiProton for example why not help them get the most out of that build instead of telling them its TRIBBLE because only X gives you 500K+ DPS?
Right now, I think the game is at its most friendly towards build diversity than it has in years. When you get a basic grasp of the way the game mechanics work, a lot of build options open up for you.
There are so many roles to build a ship towards and so many ways to approach those desired roles and still be competent enough for most of the game's content. There are even so many ways to build a ship to handle Elites. Even the ever so popular FAW builds can now be approached from many different ways while still being effective.
It's no longer BFAW or GTFO these days. I've flown with people with so many different builds in Elites and they all work well. To name a few: Torps, Exotics, Drains, Beams, Cannons, healers, tanks, mixed builds... They can all be made to work great.
The only real limiting factor in building ships for someone who knows what he is doing right now is time.
Well it takes very little time to get a ship ready for Advanced if you know what your doing (a few days if you are playing casually daily). It only gets tedious if you want to do Elite (which I think is right).
Well it takes very little time to get a ship ready for Advanced if you know what your doing (a few days if you are playing casually daily). It only gets tedious if you want to do Elite (which I think is right).
Absolutely. I don't do elites (other than with Fleet mates) because I haven't spent the time and effort required to get my ship up to elite level performance. In the real world, it takes a lot of time and effort to reach elites level performance. Why should a game be any different ?
Being a veteran MMO player I have always learned that where 1 build might work for 1 person might not work for another. Infact right now My eng orion her to'duj despite players saying the small craft gear is far better than loading it up with the MK gear I have taken that small fighter and even with MKXII VR gear currently has turned it into a hell of a dog fighter in PVE. Also I have always been a type to experiment with different builds until I find one I like and works for me. example SWG old days when I started playing MMO's I ran a melee/ranged class combo and did alot better than some gave me credit for. Infact ever since SWG had the plug pulled because of lack of diversity and TRIBBLE ups and WoW changing their talent tree, this is the only other MMO I have found with build diversity
"Not everyone is in a guild that plays this game."
So four years in your not in a fleet? Sounds like a personel thing. It's not that hard to find an actvily recruiting fleet and you really don't hav eto be that social in one. About the only thing that I think is kind of bad is some fleet have a minimum contribute thing to be a member not talking unlocking access to fleet items.
The one thing i think its time to do is strip weapon buff items of their singularities.
Singularitirs??? Oh you mean Procs and buffs. Um no that is complete nonsense. It would compleltly destroy the R&D system never mind the whole Weapon specfic consoles (Phaser, Polaron, Tetryon, ETC.) which let one build what they want.
Just make them all universal so people can make unique builds if they want.
Oh gee whats the point of even having different weapons if you go this way how boring. Oh yeah Universal weapon consoles never buff the same amount as weapon specific ones. Oh yes witht he current setup you get more unique builds as you can have a "rainbow" ship with a buffing console for each weapon type or a say Phaser heavy build with a single Tetryon weapon buffed with a single tet specfic console. There are many differet builds with the consoles as they are right now. Reducing the variety to a single type will take away that unique aspect as all weapons would be buffed the same.
Right now everyone is running around with the same builds and its so boring.
Prove it m builds and those of many palyers I know are all pretty unique to their style of play so you are makning a false statement. About the only cookie cutter builds are those going for min max DPS builds and got news for you sunshine that is only a portion of the player base.
Why have say a console that buffs beam damage and another one that just buffs a certain type of beam damage too. This will never make sense to me having both.
I guess you have never built a mixed weapon ship then. I myslef have a build where I have a beam only console to buff the single omni beam Tet that is a non-main Anti-P loadout weapon. I don't lose to much of a buff to my main weapons and still get a buff to teh shiled killing weapon.
For me i look at episode mission rewards and most of them are useless unless you are geared to use them.
Exactly and thats how it should be. Plus there is always a pretty generic alternitve offered and some of this emission rewards are consoles that even alone buff other things like hull regen, shield regen etc. . You don't get it do you that the missions sometimes tailored to specifc faction and that faction's canon style gear even though they are playable by all.
There is so much that needs to be done to improve this game and make it more new player friendly because getting to end game is fun but once your there its freaky boring unless you like grind.
Frankly to be blunt why are you still playing then? If you don't care for things find another game to play. Further more this games grind is far easier then any other game out there. But hey I guess you just want everything handed to you instead of taking oh 5 minutes to do the admirality missions that just toss EC and Dilth at you. I guess that is to hard for you. Oh yeah I take the time to do at least those on all of my toons every day. Not that big a hardship.
I have a hard time to respond to you @akanaro but I’m willing to give it a try.
First of all I’m sorry when I gave you the impression that I am an elitist. I don’t think I am and of course do not want to be. I invest even a considerable amount of my gaming time to help others to be successful in STO.
“Not working” in general PvE can be translated via DPS terms into doing less than 10-20K DPS for advanced level difficulty (measured in ISA). Peeps found out some time ago that those figures are needed per player to give the optional objectives of advanced maps a fair chance. For elite the range is a bit wider and is estimated to be in the 50-75K DPS range (also measured in ISA). It is also more crucial there because of strict fail conditions directly attached to the player’s DPS output. If players fail to bring that they expect others of the team to compensate and have simply selected the wrong difficulty. In short, thier builds dont work. It may be that they feel successful or are even heaving fun. Those of us who carry them in PvE however do not.
I’d also like you to know that I use Phasers out of canon reasons on my main toon. Getting with them in the 100k DPS reach is not that much of an issue. Theoretically I can carry 1 “not working" player in Elite and up to 9 in advanced with it which I frequently do by the way. I think you will also find it interesting that the current S13 DPS record of 323k was done by @felisean in a rainbow build.
Telling you “what works” is a bit difficult for me since the stuff that does is close to infinite by now. It is something everybody has to find out for oneself.
Considering how many players suck big times with their “I don’t need that stuff at all to enjoy the game” builds I wish more would do a little research on what works and what not before becoming too creative.
And how is "what works" determined pray tell? Yes, nobody wants a sub par rainbow boat in an elite STF. I get that. But to state that people should only use "what works" is not only wrong, it smacks of elitism. If someone wants to use Phasers instead of AntiProton for example why not help them get the most out of that build instead of telling them its **** because only X gives you 500K+ DPS?
He's simply asking for use of common sense, not demanding perfection. Calling Connor an Elitist just proves you have no idea who he is, dude runs with players of all skill levels. He's not asking for you to do things one specific way just asking you to at least try and run something that can help a team succeed. When joining other players in a multi player mission, that should not be considered too much to ask. When running by yourself, do what you wish but if you're going to team with others you should at least try to have a build that makes a little bit of sense.
Doesn't matter what type of energy weapon you use, beams, cannons, torps.. whatever.. it's all good. You don't have to be a huge DPS'er either, just try and do enough to help your team. Nothing elitist about that request.
“Not working” in general PvE can be translated via DPS terms into doing less than 10-20K DPS for advanced level difficulty (measured in ISA). Peeps found out some time ago that those figures are needed per player to give the optional objectives of advanced maps a fair chance. For elite the range is a bit wider and is estimated to be in the 50-75K DPS range (also measured in ISA).
I think a lot of people misunderstood where I was going by asking "how is what works determined?". The point I was trying to raise was that before we knew what works, someone had to go and test out certain builds and come to the conclusion that it either sucks or that it's awesome. These people who are willing to experiment with builds to see what happens are the ones who end up understanding game mechanics far better than the someone who just Google "Uber AP Beam Build for TAC" would ever be able to. And it is this that we take away from new players when we discourage them to experiment on their own to see what works and what don't.
Having said that, if someone insists on queuing up for an elite STF with 1K DPS after being told numerous times that he needs better DPS and how to fix it, then sure, put him on the idiot list. It is not the players unwilling to learn and improve I'm concerned about. It's the ones that get a say 50K build done on their own and are then told to stop messing around and to just go to <insert website> and use x build because hey, we know what we're talking about. That is what annoys me most because sure, YOU might know what you're talking about but instead of just pointing me to a build, explain to me why my build is not getting the DPS I want.
If a guy can pull his weight in an Elite STF and is asking how to improve his current build, don't give him a cookie cutter I guess what I'm saying.
If a guy can pull his weight in an Elite STF and is asking how to improve his current build, don't give him a cookie cutter I guess what I'm saying.
Fair enough, but just to clarify on this process..
Generally, when someone asks for advice on how to improve, they are given a suggested build. Often times it's something to the effect of 'this is how I have my ship set up,' but it's always intended as a template.. a guide line. Whenever I post build advice, I always try to be very clear that the OP is welcome to copy/paste the build if they wish (they have that right) but it's always suggested that instead, they use it as a template for suggestions and tailor it to their own style.
I get what you're saying, there are plenty of people out there that copy builds without any real knowledge of how to use that build. They then experience disappointing performance because they're not using the build correctly. The best way is always to take suggestions as just that.. suggestions.. and build your own style using the information you have learned.
Generally, in the DPS groups a basic copy/paste of builds is discouraged for this very reason.
[...] I think you will also find it interesting that the current S13 DPS record of 323k was done by @felisean in a rainbow build.
[...]
let the rainbow fly
and mostly its a general problem with unterstanding that stuff. every build using beams will end up quite equal, just because theres one combination of stuff thats good (faw+kemo+beta and here we go). the only real difference in that is a2b or eptw/epts(e) combination with dmg control doffs or other cd reductions and maybe to add 1-3 things from temporal spec.
in addition, the same occurs with cannons. the damage type itself doesnt matter for the build itself, all are viable, just are some a few % better than others.
There are some thing that have been pointed out here, that do make the process of figuring out your own ships and ground builds rather daunting to new players.
The time is not a concern. You're already playing a game, so you have the time to test and tweak. So this becomes a non-issue.
The issue here, as was pointed out, is the cost. If a new player, or even existing player, comes up with a build idea. The first thing they'll want to do is review there options of traits and armaments. For there are only five places to get said items. Those are R&D projects, Lobi Store, Reputations, the Exchange, and Fleets.
Now don't get me wrong here, there are some decent to good sets, or pieces there of, that you can get to help with any build as a reward from episodes.
But in general, for ships, one has to refer to the Exchange, Lobi Store, Fleets, and the Z-store(most call it the C-Store, or Cash Shop.) The first place most are going to looks for a ship is the Z-Store, well.. that's a $30 expense there. The next place they'll look is the Exchange. And lets face, most ships there are so badly overpriced, that only Re-sellers generally going to bother with them. Then they're just going to jack, the already jacked up price, even higher. So that's puts a screeching halt to getting a ship that way. From here, they'll turn to the Lobi Store, which is generally the same cost to get a ship that way in keys, as it would be just to buy it from the exchange.
This is problem number one of doing a custom ship build. The Next problem is: Weapons & Armaments.
Again, the same problem here, can be found in the Cost to Buy, in the afore mentioned ship problem. Since the weapons can cost as much as the ship themselves.This can generally be alleviated through R&D and Reputations. It just takes a bit of time and patience to get there. This goes for Consoles as well. There are the fleet versions there of. But again, these cost Fleet credits. Thus, one needs to be able able to donate to a fleet in order to get them. Another time consuming process, generally just to find a fleet one can donate to.
Next up: Traits
This is another costly endeavor. Granted, there are some good traits you can get from a few episodes. But in general, most will be gotten from either a a ship or the exchange. Again, another daunting task for players.
Then there are other things to consider, doffs, boffs, skill tree, and specializations.
This is where the main problems with coming up with your own build ideas that hurt most players. The amount one has to payout to get there. This can run in to several billion energy credits and/or thousands of dollars to do. The cost of the ships in the z-store, well there's nothing we can do about that. The cost of what is on the Exchange, this is purely on the players.
The cost of all of this, plus the daunting task of researching, testing, tweaking, and retesting a build, is what turns most players away from doing. This then leads them to thinking we need to "standardized" build setup. Half the problem here is the overall greed one can see in the prices on the Exchange. As someone who just took up working on this kind of thing, I can attest to the fact, IT IS EXPENSIVE! It's like buying a Fiat that's priced like a Ferrari.
C-Store is the Cryptic Store. Just like CitiBank is Citi's bank. It's not Money Bank because they deal in money.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Right now, I think the game is at its most friendly towards build diversity than it has in years. When you get a basic grasp of the way the game mechanics work, a lot of build options open up for you.
There are so many roles to build a ship towards and so many ways to approach those desired roles and still be competent enough for most of the game's content. There are even so many ways to build a ship to handle Elites. Even the ever so popular FAW builds can now be approached from many different ways while still being effective.
It's no longer BFAW or GTFO these days. I've flown with people with so many different builds in Elites and they all work well. To name a few: Torps, Exotics, Drains, Beams, Cannons, healers, tanks, mixed builds... They can all be made to work great.
The only real limiting factor in building ships for someone who knows what he is doing right now is time.
I think access to fleet gear is the overriding factor.
> @trennan said:
> There are some thing that have been pointed out here, that do make the process of figuring out your own ships and ground builds rather daunting to new players.
>
> The time is not a concern. You're already playing a game, so you have the time to test and tweak. So this becomes a non-issue.
>
> The issue here, as was pointed out, is the cost. If a new player, or even existing player, comes up with a build idea. The first thing they'll want to do is review there options of traits and armaments. For there are only five places to get said items. Those are R&D projects, Lobi Store, Reputations, the Exchange, and Fleets.
>
> Now don't get me wrong here, there are some decent to good sets, or pieces there of, that you can get to help with any build as a reward from episodes.
>
> But in general, for ships, one has to refer to the Exchange, Lobi Store, Fleets, and the Z-store(most call it the C-Store, or Cash Shop.) The first place most are going to looks for a ship is the Z-Store, well.. that's a $30 expense there. The next place they'll look is the Exchange. And lets face, most ships there are so badly overpriced, that only Re-sellers generally going to bother with them. Then they're just going to jack, the already jacked up price, even higher. So that's puts a screeching halt to getting a ship that way. From here, they'll turn to the Lobi Store, which is generally the same cost to get a ship that way in keys, as it would be just to buy it from the exchange.
>
> This is problem number one of doing a custom ship build. The Next problem is: Weapons & Armaments.
>
> Again, the same problem here, can be found in the Cost to Buy, in the afore mentioned ship problem. Since the weapons can cost as much as the ship themselves.This can generally be alleviated through R&D and Reputations. It just takes a bit of time and patience to get there. This goes for Consoles as well. There are the fleet versions there of. But again, these cost Fleet credits. Thus, one needs to be able able to donate to a fleet in order to get them. Another time consuming process, generally just to find a fleet one can donate to.
>
> Next up: Traits
>
> This is another costly endeavor. Granted, there are some good traits you can get from a few episodes. But in general, most will be gotten from either a a ship or the exchange. Again, another daunting task for players.
>
> Then there are other things to consider, doffs, boffs, skill tree, and specializations.
>
> This is where the main problems with coming up with your own build ideas that hurt most players. The amount one has to payout to get there. This can run in to several billion energy credits and/or thousands of dollars to do. The cost of the ships in the z-store, well there's nothing we can do about that. The cost of what is on the Exchange, this is purely on the players.
>
> The cost of all of this, plus the daunting task of researching, testing, tweaking, and retesting a build, is what turns most players away from doing. This then leads them to thinking we need to "standardized" build setup. Half the problem here is the overall greed one can see in the prices on the Exchange. As someone who just took up working on this kind of thing, I can attest to the fact, IT IS EXPENSIVE! It's like buying a Fiat that's priced like a Ferrari.
Every ship I buy from the Exchange I open. I'm not buying to resell. I have quite a few, after I buy them I review what each character is flying to decide who is the best fit, though I usually have a few candidates in mind. I do it all without spending any real money too.
Yeah, this is what I mean. For those of us looking at the variety of ship builds one can do. Finding that right ship for it can be the most expensive part. Which it takes time to amass that amount of EC, to buy the ships. Which plays into the time to accomplish it.
I am the same as you. I don't spend any real money on ships. If I do happen to buy some zen, I always use it for other things that my characters need. Like Doff Expansions, Inventory Expansions, etc. I look for the cost effective way to go. I'm the same with the DilEx. As long as 1 Zen cost more than 250 Dil, I don't buy it. If I buy ships of the exchange right now, it's generally like you, and mostly the cheap ships for my alts. Mainly so that they have the Admiralty card. Other than this, I don't bother with ships on the exchange. Because they are Fiats that are priced like Ferraris.
Right now, I think the game is at its most friendly towards build diversity than it has in years. When you get a basic grasp of the way the game mechanics work, a lot of build options open up for you.
There are so many roles to build a ship towards and so many ways to approach those desired roles and still be competent enough for most of the game's content. There are even so many ways to build a ship to handle Elites. Even the ever so popular FAW builds can now be approached from many different ways while still being effective.
It's no longer BFAW or GTFO these days. I've flown with people with so many different builds in Elites and they all work well. To name a few: Torps, Exotics, Drains, Beams, Cannons, healers, tanks, mixed builds... They can all be made to work great.
The only real limiting factor in building ships for someone who knows what he is doing right now is time.
I think access to fleet gear is the overriding factor.
Only if you are aiming to min-max or aim for Elites. You can build ships for advanced content without fleet gear.
Right now, I think the game is at its most friendly towards build diversity than it has in years. When you get a basic grasp of the way the game mechanics work, a lot of build options open up for you.
There are so many roles to build a ship towards and so many ways to approach those desired roles and still be competent enough for most of the game's content. There are even so many ways to build a ship to handle Elites. Even the ever so popular FAW builds can now be approached from many different ways while still being effective.
It's no longer BFAW or GTFO these days. I've flown with people with so many different builds in Elites and they all work well. To name a few: Torps, Exotics, Drains, Beams, Cannons, healers, tanks, mixed builds... They can all be made to work great.
The only real limiting factor in building ships for someone who knows what he is doing right now is time.
I think access to fleet gear is the overriding factor.
Only if you are aiming to min-max or aim for Elites. You can build ships for advanced content without fleet gear.
You can build a ship for Elites without fleet gear. Fleet gear is for the min-maxers. Every STF is based around the same fundamental setup. This being level 40 ships, UR Mk XII gear, and the Skill Tree. From here they are scaled up to our current setup. Ignoring the very fundamental setup that has been around since launch, especially in the team play area, is what has given rise to what we have today. It is also the reason why the old Borg Elite were removed for being "to buggy." Which they were buggy long before fleet gear and the min-maxing started. The thing here is, these STF's didn't change. It's that the old Borg STF's require something that most min-maxers are extremely bad at, team play. But this is what happens when you build a glasscannon, instead of a ship, around min-maxed gear and click-bait consoles. You forget the very fundamentals that the game was built upon.
Right now, I think the game is at its most friendly towards build diversity than it has in years. When you get a basic grasp of the way the game mechanics work, a lot of build options open up for you.
There are so many roles to build a ship towards and so many ways to approach those desired roles and still be competent enough for most of the game's content. There are even so many ways to build a ship to handle Elites. Even the ever so popular FAW builds can now be approached from many different ways while still being effective.
It's no longer BFAW or GTFO these days. I've flown with people with so many different builds in Elites and they all work well. To name a few: Torps, Exotics, Drains, Beams, Cannons, healers, tanks, mixed builds... They can all be made to work great.
The only real limiting factor in building ships for someone who knows what he is doing right now is time.
I think access to fleet gear is the overriding factor.
Only if you are aiming to min-max or aim for Elites. You can build ships for advanced content without fleet gear.
You can build a ship for Elites without fleet gear. Fleet gear is for the min-maxers. Every STF is based around the same fundamental setup. This being level 40 ships, UR Mk XII gear, and the Skill Tree. From here they are scaled up to our current setup. Ignoring the very fundamental setup that has been around since launch, especially in the team play area, is what has given rise to what we have today. It is also the reason why the old Borg Elite were removed for being "to buggy." Which they were buggy long before fleet gear and the min-maxing started. The thing here is, these STF's didn't change. It's that the old Borg STF's require something that most min-maxers are extremely bad at, team play. But this is what happens when you build a glasscannon, instead of a ship, around min-maxed gear and click-bait consoles. You forget the very fundamentals that the game was built upon.
Try running Korfez right now and tell me if that still holds true. You need a fairly nimble ship with good tanking ability to get through the first 3 phases and a minimum of 75k (ISA) DPS right now from each member of the team to take out the Implacable.
Comments
Considering how many players suck big times with their “I don’t need that stuff at all to enjoy the game” builds I wish more would do a little research on what works and what not before becoming too creative.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
Agreed 100%
The only way to "suck big time" in this game is to not have any fun playing. If a player enjoys taking ten minutes each taking down NPC escorts and 45 minutes plus fighting a Dread, then they are much better at this game than the player who vaporizes anything in seconds but is bored with playing.
That being said, that first player going into advanced or elite ques with thier sub 1K dps ship, yep, they suck big time.
That uber DPS player pugging normals also sucks big time.
Of course that all just my opinion.
And yes, builds, space or ground, are a daunting task, because there is a lot to think about with them. Setting a ship up to do damage is the easiest thing in the game. Plenty of cardboard cutout builds for that, just head over to reddit. But when you're talking making a build. Yes, there is a lot of work to be done. For a space I'll list off the things you have to think about, and investigate.
Ship Build List Thought Track:
Ship
Weapon Type
Weapon Energy Type
Impulse Engines
Warp Core
Deflector Dish
Secondary Deflector, if the ship has one.
Science Consoles
Engineering Consoles
Tactical Consoles
Universal Consoles
Devices
Skill Tree
Specializations
Personal Space Traits
Starship Traits
Space Reputation Traits
Active Reputation Traits
Boffs
Boff Skills
Active Space Doffs.
Now, without any set bonuses or mods. That's still a pretty daunting list. You start there, then it's looking at what stats and mods on which parts would be best for the build you're going for.
The same goes for ground as well.
Ground Build List Thought Track:
Kit
Kit Modules
Armor
Personal Shield
Weapon
Secondary Weapon
Skill Tree
Specializations
Personal Ground Traits
Ground Reputation Traits
Active Reputation Traits
Devices
Now, you may think that you need a T5 or T6 ship. Not really, my first T5 or higher ship is the Vorgon Xyfius Heavy Escort from the Summer Event last year. My only other T6 ship is the Lukari. I have some T5-U's I could use, that I bought off the exchange. But I bought those after I got the Vorgon. So I've played everything up to the Summer Event last year in the old T4 Patrol Escort you get at level 40. And at the time it was still setup in MK XII UR gear. I didn't start upgrading past that, until the first Arena of Sompek Event of this year.
I don't think those players really complain though. They're having fun; let them. That's not being a terrible player. Terrible is copying a build found somewhere but not knowing how or why it works. In that situation, making a change can ruin the setup - hence then a complaint about build choices available, because they can only get the copied builds working properly and not one of their own. So I agree with you on people doing research, but the "just having fun" players aren't the ones that suck.
And how is "what works" determined pray tell? Yes, nobody wants a sub par rainbow boat in an elite STF. I get that. But to state that people should only use "what works" is not only wrong, it smacks of elitism. If someone wants to use Phasers instead of AntiProton for example why not help them get the most out of that build instead of telling them its TRIBBLE because only X gives you 500K+ DPS?
There are so many roles to build a ship towards and so many ways to approach those desired roles and still be competent enough for most of the game's content. There are even so many ways to build a ship to handle Elites. Even the ever so popular FAW builds can now be approached from many different ways while still being effective.
It's no longer BFAW or GTFO these days. I've flown with people with so many different builds in Elites and they all work well. To name a few: Torps, Exotics, Drains, Beams, Cannons, healers, tanks, mixed builds... They can all be made to work great.
The only real limiting factor in building ships for someone who knows what he is doing right now is time.
| USS Curiosity - Pathfinder | USS Rift - Eternal |
The Science Ship Build Thread - Share your Sci Ship builds here!
| USS Curiosity - Pathfinder | USS Rift - Eternal |
The Science Ship Build Thread - Share your Sci Ship builds here!
Absolutely. I don't do elites (other than with Fleet mates) because I haven't spent the time and effort required to get my ship up to elite level performance. In the real world, it takes a lot of time and effort to reach elites level performance. Why should a game be any different ?
So four years in your not in a fleet? Sounds like a personel thing. It's not that hard to find an actvily recruiting fleet and you really don't hav eto be that social in one. About the only thing that I think is kind of bad is some fleet have a minimum contribute thing to be a member not talking unlocking access to fleet items.
The one thing i think its time to do is strip weapon buff items of their singularities.
Singularitirs??? Oh you mean Procs and buffs. Um no that is complete nonsense. It would compleltly destroy the R&D system never mind the whole Weapon specfic consoles (Phaser, Polaron, Tetryon, ETC.) which let one build what they want.
Just make them all universal so people can make unique builds if they want.
Oh gee whats the point of even having different weapons if you go this way how boring. Oh yeah Universal weapon consoles never buff the same amount as weapon specific ones. Oh yes witht he current setup you get more unique builds as you can have a "rainbow" ship with a buffing console for each weapon type or a say Phaser heavy build with a single Tetryon weapon buffed with a single tet specfic console. There are many differet builds with the consoles as they are right now. Reducing the variety to a single type will take away that unique aspect as all weapons would be buffed the same.
Right now everyone is running around with the same builds and its so boring.
Prove it m builds and those of many palyers I know are all pretty unique to their style of play so you are makning a false statement. About the only cookie cutter builds are those going for min max DPS builds and got news for you sunshine that is only a portion of the player base.
Why have say a console that buffs beam damage and another one that just buffs a certain type of beam damage too. This will never make sense to me having both.
I guess you have never built a mixed weapon ship then. I myslef have a build where I have a beam only console to buff the single omni beam Tet that is a non-main Anti-P loadout weapon. I don't lose to much of a buff to my main weapons and still get a buff to teh shiled killing weapon.
For me i look at episode mission rewards and most of them are useless unless you are geared to use them.
Exactly and thats how it should be. Plus there is always a pretty generic alternitve offered and some of this emission rewards are consoles that even alone buff other things like hull regen, shield regen etc. . You don't get it do you that the missions sometimes tailored to specifc faction and that faction's canon style gear even though they are playable by all.
There is so much that needs to be done to improve this game and make it more new player friendly because getting to end game is fun but once your there its freaky boring unless you like grind.
Frankly to be blunt why are you still playing then? If you don't care for things find another game to play. Further more this games grind is far easier then any other game out there. But hey I guess you just want everything handed to you instead of taking oh 5 minutes to do the admirality missions that just toss EC and Dilth at you. I guess that is to hard for you. Oh yeah I take the time to do at least those on all of my toons every day. Not that big a hardship.
First of all I’m sorry when I gave you the impression that I am an elitist. I don’t think I am and of course do not want to be. I invest even a considerable amount of my gaming time to help others to be successful in STO.
“Not working” in general PvE can be translated via DPS terms into doing less than 10-20K DPS for advanced level difficulty (measured in ISA). Peeps found out some time ago that those figures are needed per player to give the optional objectives of advanced maps a fair chance. For elite the range is a bit wider and is estimated to be in the 50-75K DPS range (also measured in ISA). It is also more crucial there because of strict fail conditions directly attached to the player’s DPS output. If players fail to bring that they expect others of the team to compensate and have simply selected the wrong difficulty. In short, thier builds dont work. It may be that they feel successful or are even heaving fun. Those of us who carry them in PvE however do not.
I’d also like you to know that I use Phasers out of canon reasons on my main toon. Getting with them in the 100k DPS reach is not that much of an issue. Theoretically I can carry 1 “not working" player in Elite and up to 9 in advanced with it which I frequently do by the way. I think you will also find it interesting that the current S13 DPS record of 323k was done by @felisean in a rainbow build.
Telling you “what works” is a bit difficult for me since the stuff that does is close to infinite by now. It is something everybody has to find out for oneself.
If you like to know what works best however feel free to join us in the DPS league.
You could take the stuff you see as inspiration towards what works for you individually. That is how I have done it 3 years ago.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
He's simply asking for use of common sense, not demanding perfection. Calling Connor an Elitist just proves you have no idea who he is, dude runs with players of all skill levels. He's not asking for you to do things one specific way just asking you to at least try and run something that can help a team succeed. When joining other players in a multi player mission, that should not be considered too much to ask. When running by yourself, do what you wish but if you're going to team with others you should at least try to have a build that makes a little bit of sense.
Doesn't matter what type of energy weapon you use, beams, cannons, torps.. whatever.. it's all good. You don't have to be a huge DPS'er either, just try and do enough to help your team. Nothing elitist about that request.
No, I'm sorry, it is I who should apologize. It wasn't an attack on you personally but rather on a specific mindset I see all too often in MMOs.
I think a lot of people misunderstood where I was going by asking "how is what works determined?". The point I was trying to raise was that before we knew what works, someone had to go and test out certain builds and come to the conclusion that it either sucks or that it's awesome. These people who are willing to experiment with builds to see what happens are the ones who end up understanding game mechanics far better than the someone who just Google "Uber AP Beam Build for TAC" would ever be able to. And it is this that we take away from new players when we discourage them to experiment on their own to see what works and what don't.
Having said that, if someone insists on queuing up for an elite STF with 1K DPS after being told numerous times that he needs better DPS and how to fix it, then sure, put him on the idiot list. It is not the players unwilling to learn and improve I'm concerned about. It's the ones that get a say 50K build done on their own and are then told to stop messing around and to just go to <insert website> and use x build because hey, we know what we're talking about. That is what annoys me most because sure, YOU might know what you're talking about but instead of just pointing me to a build, explain to me why my build is not getting the DPS I want.
If a guy can pull his weight in an Elite STF and is asking how to improve his current build, don't give him a cookie cutter I guess what I'm saying.
Fair enough, but just to clarify on this process..
Generally, when someone asks for advice on how to improve, they are given a suggested build. Often times it's something to the effect of 'this is how I have my ship set up,' but it's always intended as a template.. a guide line. Whenever I post build advice, I always try to be very clear that the OP is welcome to copy/paste the build if they wish (they have that right) but it's always suggested that instead, they use it as a template for suggestions and tailor it to their own style.
I get what you're saying, there are plenty of people out there that copy builds without any real knowledge of how to use that build. They then experience disappointing performance because they're not using the build correctly. The best way is always to take suggestions as just that.. suggestions.. and build your own style using the information you have learned.
Generally, in the DPS groups a basic copy/paste of builds is discouraged for this very reason.
let the rainbow fly
and mostly its a general problem with unterstanding that stuff. every build using beams will end up quite equal, just because theres one combination of stuff thats good (faw+kemo+beta and here we go). the only real difference in that is a2b or eptw/epts(e) combination with dmg control doffs or other cd reductions and maybe to add 1-3 things from temporal spec.
in addition, the same occurs with cannons. the damage type itself doesnt matter for the build itself, all are viable, just are some a few % better than others.
ingame: @Felisean
The energy type damage buff consoles are for all weapon types of that energy type. (Beams and Cannons)
The time is not a concern. You're already playing a game, so you have the time to test and tweak. So this becomes a non-issue.
The issue here, as was pointed out, is the cost. If a new player, or even existing player, comes up with a build idea. The first thing they'll want to do is review there options of traits and armaments. For there are only five places to get said items. Those are R&D projects, Lobi Store, Reputations, the Exchange, and Fleets.
Now don't get me wrong here, there are some decent to good sets, or pieces there of, that you can get to help with any build as a reward from episodes.
But in general, for ships, one has to refer to the Exchange, Lobi Store, Fleets, and the Z-store(most call it the C-Store, or Cash Shop.) The first place most are going to looks for a ship is the Z-Store, well.. that's a $30 expense there. The next place they'll look is the Exchange. And lets face, most ships there are so badly overpriced, that only Re-sellers generally going to bother with them. Then they're just going to jack, the already jacked up price, even higher. So that's puts a screeching halt to getting a ship that way. From here, they'll turn to the Lobi Store, which is generally the same cost to get a ship that way in keys, as it would be just to buy it from the exchange.
This is problem number one of doing a custom ship build. The Next problem is: Weapons & Armaments.
Again, the same problem here, can be found in the Cost to Buy, in the afore mentioned ship problem. Since the weapons can cost as much as the ship themselves.This can generally be alleviated through R&D and Reputations. It just takes a bit of time and patience to get there. This goes for Consoles as well. There are the fleet versions there of. But again, these cost Fleet credits. Thus, one needs to be able able to donate to a fleet in order to get them. Another time consuming process, generally just to find a fleet one can donate to.
Next up: Traits
This is another costly endeavor. Granted, there are some good traits you can get from a few episodes. But in general, most will be gotten from either a a ship or the exchange. Again, another daunting task for players.
Then there are other things to consider, doffs, boffs, skill tree, and specializations.
This is where the main problems with coming up with your own build ideas that hurt most players. The amount one has to payout to get there. This can run in to several billion energy credits and/or thousands of dollars to do. The cost of the ships in the z-store, well there's nothing we can do about that. The cost of what is on the Exchange, this is purely on the players.
The cost of all of this, plus the daunting task of researching, testing, tweaking, and retesting a build, is what turns most players away from doing. This then leads them to thinking we need to "standardized" build setup. Half the problem here is the overall greed one can see in the prices on the Exchange. As someone who just took up working on this kind of thing, I can attest to the fact, IT IS EXPENSIVE! It's like buying a Fiat that's priced like a Ferrari.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
I think access to fleet gear is the overriding factor.
Yeah, this is what I mean. For those of us looking at the variety of ship builds one can do. Finding that right ship for it can be the most expensive part. Which it takes time to amass that amount of EC, to buy the ships. Which plays into the time to accomplish it.
I am the same as you. I don't spend any real money on ships. If I do happen to buy some zen, I always use it for other things that my characters need. Like Doff Expansions, Inventory Expansions, etc. I look for the cost effective way to go. I'm the same with the DilEx. As long as 1 Zen cost more than 250 Dil, I don't buy it. If I buy ships of the exchange right now, it's generally like you, and mostly the cheap ships for my alts. Mainly so that they have the Admiralty card. Other than this, I don't bother with ships on the exchange. Because they are Fiats that are priced like Ferraris.
Only if you are aiming to min-max or aim for Elites. You can build ships for advanced content without fleet gear.
| USS Curiosity - Pathfinder | USS Rift - Eternal |
The Science Ship Build Thread - Share your Sci Ship builds here!
You can build a ship for Elites without fleet gear. Fleet gear is for the min-maxers. Every STF is based around the same fundamental setup. This being level 40 ships, UR Mk XII gear, and the Skill Tree. From here they are scaled up to our current setup. Ignoring the very fundamental setup that has been around since launch, especially in the team play area, is what has given rise to what we have today. It is also the reason why the old Borg Elite were removed for being "to buggy." Which they were buggy long before fleet gear and the min-maxing started. The thing here is, these STF's didn't change. It's that the old Borg STF's require something that most min-maxers are extremely bad at, team play. But this is what happens when you build a glasscannon, instead of a ship, around min-maxed gear and click-bait consoles. You forget the very fundamentals that the game was built upon.
Try running Korfez right now and tell me if that still holds true. You need a fairly nimble ship with good tanking ability to get through the first 3 phases and a minimum of 75k (ISA) DPS right now from each member of the team to take out the Implacable.
| USS Curiosity - Pathfinder | USS Rift - Eternal |
The Science Ship Build Thread - Share your Sci Ship builds here!