Kirk was absolutely RIGHT in STIII and we all knew it. Two lives were directly at stake, those of McCoy and Spock, and Morrow refused to allow their crewmates to save them. He was dead wrong and it was very clear. Kirk disobeyed orders, yes, but they were bad orders on the face of it. Kirk and company didn't put any other lives in danger but their own, and they stole a ship that Morrow had sentenced to be scrapped anyhow. Two lives vs a ship that was being thrown away is a no-brainer as far as value is concerned.
That's only what they knew at the time, it gets better at Genesis. Morrow didn't bother to post a picket ship to guard the place, sending only an unarmed science ship, and the Klingons showed up to get as much information as they could. Had the Enterprise not arrived, Kruge would have gotten not only all the data he could scan from the planet but also the guy who created Genesis as a prisoner! Another several lives were saved by Kirk and crew, and Kruge was prevented from getting back to Klingon space with Genesis secrets and prisoners.
It's clearly and blatantly obvious that had Kirk followed Morrow's orders, it would have been a disaster. Even without the events of STIV, it would be very clear that Kirk traded a ship destined for the scrapyard for a half dozen lives saved and the prevention of the Klingons from attaining vital Genesis data and a prisoner who could have very likely given them everything they needed to recreate Genesis as a weapon of mass destruction. That's more than enough to call Morrow's orders into serious question, as well as his overall judgement and capability to command.
Kirk's defense would have boiled down to "He was wrong, I knew he was wrong and circumstances left me no other choice but to do the right thing in spite of bad orders to the contrary. The record shows that I was correct and my actions saved lives as well as prevented a potential catastrophe in the form of Genesis data and prisoners falling into Klingon hands. In addition, Admiral Morrow's refusal to allow me to have my ship repaired and properly crewed resulted directly in the death of the lead Genesis scientist, a major loss to the Federation as a whole as well as myself personally."
Results do matter. When you disobey orders because you think they're wrong and bad things will happen if you follow them, it matters if it turns out you were right. It matters if your actions saved lives and prevented disaster. It shows your judgement call was correct, and that of the officer who gave you the bad orders was lacking. "I did what I had to" means a lot when the results are lives saved and problems solved and disaster prevented. It means a lot less when you were the one in the wrong and your actions lead to deaths and fiascos.
Kirk was absolutely RIGHT in STIII and we all knew it. Two lives were directly at stake, those of McCoy and Spock, and Morrow refused to allow their crewmates to save them. He was dead wrong and it was very clear. Kirk disobeyed orders, yes, but they were bad orders on the face of it. Kirk and company didn't put any other lives in danger but their own, and they stole a ship that Morrow had sentenced to be scrapped anyhow. Two lives vs a ship that was being thrown away is a no-brainer as far as value is concerned.
Having just watched STIII, I can chime in on this. Morrow a) believed the katra thing to be some sort of mystical mumbo-jumbo and b) was aware of the politically sensitive nature of the Genesis planet. From his perspective, Kirk was asking to divert a full-sized starship (which are costly to operate) on a wild goose chase that could provoke the Klingons into war. Now, in real life it would have been easy enough to just look up scientific studies on katras to see that they were real, but when have Star Trek writers ever let common sense get in the way of inciting a conflict?
Kirk's defense would have boiled down to "He was wrong, I knew he was wrong and circumstances left me no other choice but to do the right thing in spite of bad orders to the contrary. The record shows that I was correct and my actions saved lives as well as prevented a potential catastrophe in the form of Genesis data and prisoners falling into Klingon hands. In addition, Admiral Morrow's refusal to allow me to have my ship repaired and properly crewed resulted directly in the death of the lead Genesis scientist, a major loss to the Federation as a whole as well as myself personally."
Results do matter. When you disobey orders because you think they're wrong and bad things will happen if you follow them, it matters if it turns out you were right. It matters if your actions saved lives and prevented disaster. It shows your judgement call was correct, and that of the officer who gave you the bad orders was lacking. "I did what I had to" means a lot when the results are lives saved and problems solved and disaster prevented. It means a lot less when you were the one in the wrong and your actions lead to deaths and fiascos.
Thing is, Kirk didn't disobey orders because he know Morrow's orders were bad and would cost lives and give the klingons a chance to steal Genesis. As far as he knew, everything around Genesis was just hunky-dory. He just didn't care what Morrow said unless it was what he wanted. Kirk didn't even have to steal the Enterprise to get Spock's body back, he just had to say "Well the Grissom's there, right? Why don't they pick up Spock's body and have it shipped back?"
The klingons would still have thrown a wrench into things, but nobody knew about the klingons at that point.
Now, why did nobody (including Kirk) expect the klingons to get involved? Because the writers handed out the Idiot Ball. Or maybe Kruge was a renegade and was acting outside the authority of the Empire (which would explain his complete lack of subtlety).
I rather had the impression that Kruge was so far off the reservation he couldn't even see it from there. Certainly Klingon Intelligence has better ways to acquire information than sending young women on suicide missions, and blowing up potentially-useful mercenary contacts.
And again, we give Kirk the benefit of the doubt because we know all the surrounding data. As Alex points out, from the POV of the characters involved (including Jim), he committed a series of crimes for no readily apparent reason. (He certainly didn't save anybody by stealing the Enterprise - the best he could do was to kill a bunch of Klingons who were so stupid they thought the legendary Kirk would surrender just because his son was dead.)
Now, for all we know, maybe Burnham was right. Maybe firing on the coffin ship, doing it severe damage or even destroying it, would have impressed the arriving Klingon fleet enough that they would take Starfleet seriously. Then again, maybe she was dead wrong, and nothing could possibly avert war from the moment she accidentally killed the Torchbearer. We'll never know, because she was prevented from taking action. But she doesn't get any benefit of doubt, purely because a) she's new, and b) some of you decided to hate this show months back, before you even knew anything about it besides that you didn't like the artwork. That's really not a good way to judge a story, you know.
They wrote the main character to be as horrible as They thought They could get away with, just so They can spend the rest of the season making her out to be Supergirl/A Goddess.
I've watched it twice now, and will probably warm up to it eventually (since it's the only new Trek we have), but it's gonna be a long road.
If They had just said that this show was set 30-40 years before TOS, I think I would have been a lot more forgiving about the look.
It's got more of an ENTERPRISE feel to it than anything near a TOS feel.
<shrug>
STO Member since February 2009. I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born! Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
So Khaless formed the empire after defeating Molor and the Fek'lhri, using the sword of Khaless - the most revered item in the universe to Klingons - which was made by Khaless throwing a lock of his hair into the lava of Mt. Kri'stak
...now Klingons don't have hair. If you want to explore the inner parts of the Klingon's culture... consistency is a good place to start.
Amusingly, except for one Klingon sect on Borath, no one knew how the sword of Khaless was made.
But you forgot the part where he and his wive fought off basically a day against hundreds of foes.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
I rather had the impression that Kruge was so far off the reservation he couldn't even see it from there. Certainly Klingon Intelligence has better ways to acquire information than sending young women on suicide missions, and blowing up potentially-useful mercenary contacts.
And again, we give Kirk the benefit of the doubt because we know all the surrounding data. As Alex points out, from the POV of the characters involved (including Jim), he committed a series of crimes for no readily apparent reason. (He certainly didn't save anybody by stealing the Enterprise - the best he could do was to kill a bunch of Klingons who were so stupid they thought the legendary Kirk would surrender just because his son was dead.)
Now, for all we know, maybe Burnham was right. Maybe firing on the coffin ship, doing it severe damage or even destroying it, would have impressed the arriving Klingon fleet enough that they would take Starfleet seriously. Then again, maybe she was dead wrong, and nothing could possibly avert war from the moment she accidentally killed the Torchbearer. We'll never know, because she was prevented from taking action. But she doesn't get any benefit of doubt, purely because a) she's new, and b) some of you decided to hate this show months back, before you even knew anything about it besides that you didn't like the artwork. That's really not a good way to judge a story, you know.
the war was inevitable before she set foot on the site, Jon. It begins with the opening...er..monologue by T'Kuvma.
Burnham crosses the line from Unprofessional Know-it-all to moron before she even encounters the torchbearer. Her behaviours and conduct range from rapid-fire-stating facts not on instruments (during the planet scene) to unprofessional conduct on the ship including undermining her fellow officers, to the actions she took on her spacewalk prior to encountering the torchbearer.
Keep in mind this is an officer who's allegedly served 7 years on that ship and risen to the rank of Commander.
I keep that in mind, but I don't think you really do. Nor do you really seem to take into account what the dialogue in the bridge scenes also suggest - that these people know each other and are able to have fun together. The Captain is joking about how her two officers are finally agreeing on something, which causes a chuckle from other officers on the bridge.
The scene at the console between Saru and Burnham was actually initiated by the Captain herself - she gave a nod in Burnham's direction, telling her to go to Saru's station and check his reports out.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
They wrote the main character to be as horrible as They thought They could get away with, just so They can spend the rest of the season making her out to be Supergirl/A Goddess.
I've watched it twice now, and will probably warm up to it eventually (since it's the only new Trek we have), but it's gonna be a long road.
If They had just said that this show was set 30-40 years before TOS, I think I would have been a lot more forgiving about the look.
It's got more of an ENTERPRISE feel to it than anything near a TOS feel.
<shrug>
I kinda think it's a good thing it has an ENT feel. TOS was about as civilized as the wild west at most times.
there are a host of things they could've done differently. Using CGI or Claymation to get the "look" for their Klingons so that their new look can actually move and emote
you just said Claymation can emote.... You should stop before you jump into the black hole.
I'm going to continue my point with a hypothetical.
Since Kirk et al.'s exoneration for their various acts of sabotage and barratry in Star Trek III didn't take place until Star Trek IV, let's pretend Star Trek IV never aired. You'd all be going, Kirk's done, career over, probably sent to prison.
That's Burnham. The stories where she earns her way back HAVEN'T AIRED YET.
Furthermore: Kirk's saving the day in TVH had jack to do with his crimes in TSfS; he got let go basically because he'd made prosecuting him politically dicey (maybe it was an election year). Whereas Burnham's presumed redemption arc is directly related to her offenses. I'm prepared to give that a lot more slack than what Kirk did.
Funny thing is it got suggested several times that the only reason Kirk made it to admiral is that none of his "creative" solutions to problems backfired.
You're very much reaching for an excuse here. Kirk had no idea that Spock's body had regenerated. For all he knew, it had disintegrated in the photon torpedo casing as it entered the atmosphere of the Genesis planet. Not to mention, unlike Burnham, Kirk knew of the politically sensitive nature of the Genesis planet. In summary, he ignored orders of a superior officer, committed mutiny, risked all out war with the Klingons (which would have cost countless lives) all on a very, very slim chance he could save his friends.
These are the same things you all want to demonize Burnham for. Sorry, it is abundantly clear she didn't do anything anyone before her has done.
Can I just point something out here, because it's been bugging me?
Kirk didn't mutiny. The correct naval term is barratry.
/nitpickmode
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
there are a host of things they could've done differently. Using CGI or Claymation to get the "look" for their Klingons so that their new look can actually move and emote
you just said Claymation can emote.... You should stop before you jump into the black hole.
Oh, I"m aware-Claymation's a series of frames shot of of an inanimate model (usually made of clay). It can't have emotions...but the animator's work can make it seem to. It's more a comparison with the acting and how many expressions those masks and bodysuits were allowing to be communicated by the people sweating in them. IOW, the clay models shot frame-by-frame would likely communicate more life than the underpaid live actors (and anyone working under hot lighting in full body latex is underpaid), including the guy playing T'Kuvma, were able to.
In short, they managed to make their Klingons boring.
Haha.... you have no idea how hard it'd be to resculpt the face every frame? Part of why claymation worked was that they didn't need to make such detailed changes for each frame.
they still should have at least trimmed down those teeth a bit...or had the lines recorded separately and lip-synced
i just watched each of the two episodes and god damn, those voices were awful - it sounded like every klingon had a bad chest cold, a throat full of mucus AND a mouth stuffed full of cotton
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
they still should have at least trimmed down those teeth a bit...or had the lines recorded separately and lip-synced
i just watched each of the two episodes and god damn, those voices were awful - it sounded like every klingon had a bad chest cold, a throat full of mucus AND a mouth stuffed full of cotton
You know...there was the scene in Episode 2 where T'kumva was speaking English to the Admiral Anderson. Was the actor able to talk through his makeup and teeth at that time?
That would tell you if he was having issues with the makeup or he did not get enough coaching with the Klingon language.
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
there was one instance near the end of episode 2 where he spoke english very clearly - but only for that one instance, and every bit of dialogue after was back to chest-cold, throat-mucus, mouth-cotton level of clarity
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
I wish they would fix that already, but something that works is to add some text to the end of the post when you edit it. Like #deathtotheeditmonster.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
I will definitely say I wasn't thrilled with the T'Kuvma costumes, for exactly the reasons said. Fortunately I read somewhere that the actual makeup are saying Aaron Harberts was wrong: not all the Klingons in the series are made up like that, just House T'Kuvma.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
I will definitely say I wasn't thrilled with the T'Kuvma costumes, for exactly the reasons said. Fortunately I read somewhere that the actual makeup are saying Aaron Harberts was wrong: not all the Klingons in the series are made up like that, just House T'Kuvma.
I think that might be a result of the agony of meeting budget, rather than a creative decision.
Maybe, but it tracks with what was said in some of the other Word of God bits. Their intent seems to be to treat the various Houses as distinct ethnic groups with different phenotypes (beyond forehead ridge shape), rather than merely as clans as was done in previous series.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Kirk was absolutely RIGHT in STIII and we all knew it. Two lives were directly at stake, those of McCoy and Spock, and Morrow refused to allow their crewmates to save them. He was dead wrong and it was very clear. Kirk disobeyed orders, yes, but they were bad orders on the face of it. Kirk and company didn't put any other lives in danger but their own, and they stole a ship that Morrow had sentenced to be scrapped anyhow. Two lives vs a ship that was being thrown away is a no-brainer as far as value is concerned.
Having just watched STIII, I can chime in on this. Morrow a) believed the katra thing to be some sort of mystical mumbo-jumbo and b) was aware of the politically sensitive nature of the Genesis planet. From his perspective, Kirk was asking to divert a full-sized starship (which are costly to operate) on a wild goose chase that could provoke the Klingons into war. Now, in real life it would have been easy enough to just look up scientific studies on katras to see that they were real, but when have Star Trek writers ever let common sense get in the way of inciting a conflict?
Kirk's defense would have boiled down to "He was wrong, I knew he was wrong and circumstances left me no other choice but to do the right thing in spite of bad orders to the contrary. The record shows that I was correct and my actions saved lives as well as prevented a potential catastrophe in the form of Genesis data and prisoners falling into Klingon hands. In addition, Admiral Morrow's refusal to allow me to have my ship repaired and properly crewed resulted directly in the death of the lead Genesis scientist, a major loss to the Federation as a whole as well as myself personally."
Results do matter. When you disobey orders because you think they're wrong and bad things will happen if you follow them, it matters if it turns out you were right. It matters if your actions saved lives and prevented disaster. It shows your judgement call was correct, and that of the officer who gave you the bad orders was lacking. "I did what I had to" means a lot when the results are lives saved and problems solved and disaster prevented. It means a lot less when you were the one in the wrong and your actions lead to deaths and fiascos.
Thing is, Kirk didn't disobey orders because he know Morrow's orders were bad and would cost lives .
Yes, he did. Two of them, McCoy and Spock. The Klingons around Genesis was a bonus, it was good luck that Kirk ended up there to deal with that situation, and it would have been better still had Morrow allowed Kirk to take the Enterprise with a full crew as then they'd have been able to handle Kruge without loss of life or ship. Morrow and the Council were too busy keeping their own people away from Genesis (to the point he limited it to only one small science ship crew instead of sending them an escort vessel!) to realize there might be an outside threat that took precedence. It was a bad call, and it cost lives and two ships. They absolutely WERE bad orders, and Morrow would have been called to answer for his bad judgement that was so costly. The fact that disobeying his orders prevented a serious disaster would have counted for a LOT.
The movie takes great pains to make sure we know whose side to take. Morrow is unreasonable, he denies that the katra exists when a simple bit of computer research or a subspace call to Vulcan would have told him it was real. He insists on scrapping Enterprise, even giving the wrong figure for her age. He insists Excelsior is the future, when Scott thinks she's a piece of garbage and proves it by disabling the ship by pulling a single handful of components. He insists on only allowing the science team in an unarmed vessel access to Genesis, putting lives and vital intel in jeopardy.
His decision would doom Spock, McCoy, and Enterprise --three beloveds of the fans. For that alone, the audience would side against him. Taking the Enterprise from Kirk and Scott? That means WAR. We'd have cheered if either of them had knocked him the hell out on the spot.
On top of that, everyone else was painted in as unflattering light as possible. The security guard insults Sulu, the transporter tech condescends at Uhura, and the Excelsior captain was perhaps the most punchable man in Star Trek history. Every one of them got the humiliation they deserved and the audience cheered for it.
Here's the biggest kicker though --Morrow gained NOTHING by refusing Kirk's request and in fact made things WORSE. If his reason for not giving Grissom an armed escort was to preserve intel security, who better to send to protect them than Kirk and crew? They already KNEW about Genesis! They'd had all the information in their computer, even. They had seen it in action. Kirk needing to go back there anyhow should have been looked at as a great opportunity to kill two birds with one stone --Kirk gets to save two decorated Starfleet officers and please a very important VIV (Very Important Vulcan) and in so doing they can provide an armed escort to protect Grissom and prevent anyone else from snooping around where they shouldn't. Saying no was absolutely a bad call, and he'd be lucky to survive an inquiry after the disaster that his poor judgement led to.
If Kirk hadn't been so passionate about keeping Enterprise and commanding a starship, he might have had a shot at Morrow's job. He was clearly right and his judgement would have obviously produced the better outcome.
Okay, you're correct that Kirk was trying to save Spock and McCoy. However, you cant make statements like "everyone else was painted in as unflattering light as possible" when you're talking about whether a character is reasonable or unreasonable. Which side the movie wants us to take is irrelevant to whether or not an action makes sense.
But now that you have brought up the meta components, it strikes me that you're right: the movie does take great pains to depict these characters as wrong when the Enterprise crew are right, and it stinks of bad writing. In order to paint the Enterprise crew as sympathetic despite committing an actual crime, the writers dumb down the other Starfleet personnel. Morrow and the Excelsior captain are idiots for no real reason except to make Kirk et. al. look better. Why doesn't Morrow look up katras? Are they nigh-mythical? Does he think Vulcan mysticism is a bunch of spiritual mumbo-jumbo? Is making snap judgements in his character? "Well, uh, no, uh, he, er, HE JUST DOESN'T, OKAY?!"
And I mean, why is the Excelsior captain such an obnoxious prick who apparently has no redeeming qualities? Surely Starfleet would pick an accomplished commander for their newest and most ambitious starship. "Well, he, uh... uh... AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH *runs away*"
I mean, this is the same writer/director pair that gave us the trope namer for Space Whale Aesop.
Though again, Morrow has a good in-universe reason not to send warships to Genesis. The planet is a political powder keg and he doesn't want the Federation to come off as being aggressive. It may not have been the right choice, but it makes sense based on Federation philosophy.
Morrow's actual mistakes, namely not looking up katras* and not expecting the Klingons to come snooping, are not some integral part of his character (if indeed he actually has any character. He probably exists entirely to cause problems for Kirk et. al.)
*And remember that until Sarek came around, Kirk had no idea that this "resurrection through katra" thing existed either, despite having a vulcan best friend for decades. You'd think that after all those near-deaths, Spock would have taken Kirk aside and said "Hey Jim, let me show you a trick in case I kick the bucket again."
tl;dr The only reason Morrow et. al. are written so stupid is to make Kirk et. al. look better when they do something stupid and of questionable legality.
I will definitely say I wasn't thrilled with the T'Kuvma costumes, for exactly the reasons said. Fortunately I read somewhere that the actual makeup are saying Aaron Harberts was wrong: not all the Klingons in the series are made up like that, just House T'Kuvma.
I think that might be a result of the agony of meeting budget, rather than a creative decision.
Maybe, but it tracks with what was said in some of the other Word of God bits. Their intent seems to be to treat the various Houses as distinct ethnic groups with different phenotypes (beyond forehead ridge shape), rather than merely as clans as was done in previous series.
It is possible that each House is its own government that controls one or more planets or star systems. In theory, Lunar Humans and Martian Humans would be different from us due to their alien environment and possible genetic engineering to adapt to the Moon and Mars. Have humans on an exotic alien world with a completely different ecosystem living for a thousand years and they would look different from us. Might end up with blue skin or some weird appendage. The same thing could happen with the Houses. Each House adapted to a different alien world and evolved differently as a result. Therefore, it could be possible to see TOS Klingons and TNG Klingons in Discovery.
Comments
Having just watched STIII, I can chime in on this. Morrow a) believed the katra thing to be some sort of mystical mumbo-jumbo and b) was aware of the politically sensitive nature of the Genesis planet. From his perspective, Kirk was asking to divert a full-sized starship (which are costly to operate) on a wild goose chase that could provoke the Klingons into war. Now, in real life it would have been easy enough to just look up scientific studies on katras to see that they were real, but when have Star Trek writers ever let common sense get in the way of inciting a conflict?
Thing is, Kirk didn't disobey orders because he know Morrow's orders were bad and would cost lives and give the klingons a chance to steal Genesis. As far as he knew, everything around Genesis was just hunky-dory. He just didn't care what Morrow said unless it was what he wanted. Kirk didn't even have to steal the Enterprise to get Spock's body back, he just had to say "Well the Grissom's there, right? Why don't they pick up Spock's body and have it shipped back?"
The klingons would still have thrown a wrench into things, but nobody knew about the klingons at that point.
Now, why did nobody (including Kirk) expect the klingons to get involved? Because the writers handed out the Idiot Ball. Or maybe Kruge was a renegade and was acting outside the authority of the Empire (which would explain his complete lack of subtlety).
And again, we give Kirk the benefit of the doubt because we know all the surrounding data. As Alex points out, from the POV of the characters involved (including Jim), he committed a series of crimes for no readily apparent reason. (He certainly didn't save anybody by stealing the Enterprise - the best he could do was to kill a bunch of Klingons who were so stupid they thought the legendary Kirk would surrender just because his son was dead.)
Now, for all we know, maybe Burnham was right. Maybe firing on the coffin ship, doing it severe damage or even destroying it, would have impressed the arriving Klingon fleet enough that they would take Starfleet seriously. Then again, maybe she was dead wrong, and nothing could possibly avert war from the moment she accidentally killed the Torchbearer. We'll never know, because she was prevented from taking action. But she doesn't get any benefit of doubt, purely because a) she's new, and b) some of you decided to hate this show months back, before you even knew anything about it besides that you didn't like the artwork. That's really not a good way to judge a story, you know.
I've watched it twice now, and will probably warm up to it eventually (since it's the only new Trek we have), but it's gonna be a long road.
If They had just said that this show was set 30-40 years before TOS, I think I would have been a lot more forgiving about the look.
It's got more of an ENTERPRISE feel to it than anything near a TOS feel.
<shrug>
I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
But you forgot the part where he and his wive fought off basically a day against hundreds of foes.
The scene at the console between Saru and Burnham was actually initiated by the Captain herself - she gave a nod in Burnham's direction, telling her to go to Saru's station and check his reports out.
My character Tsin'xing
Can I just point something out here, because it's been bugging me?
Kirk didn't mutiny. The correct naval term is barratry.
/nitpickmode
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
My character Tsin'xing
i just watched each of the two episodes and god damn, those voices were awful - it sounded like every klingon had a bad chest cold, a throat full of mucus AND a mouth stuffed full of cotton
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
My character Tsin'xing
That would tell you if he was having issues with the makeup or he did not get enough coaching with the Klingon language.
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
there was one instance near the end of episode 2 where he spoke english very clearly - but only for that one instance, and every bit of dialogue after was back to chest-cold, throat-mucus, mouth-cotton level of clarity
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
I wish they would fix that already, but something that works is to add some text to the end of the post when you edit it. Like #deathtotheeditmonster.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Maybe, but it tracks with what was said in some of the other Word of God bits. Their intent seems to be to treat the various Houses as distinct ethnic groups with different phenotypes (beyond forehead ridge shape), rather than merely as clans as was done in previous series.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Okay, you're correct that Kirk was trying to save Spock and McCoy. However, you cant make statements like "everyone else was painted in as unflattering light as possible" when you're talking about whether a character is reasonable or unreasonable. Which side the movie wants us to take is irrelevant to whether or not an action makes sense.
But now that you have brought up the meta components, it strikes me that you're right: the movie does take great pains to depict these characters as wrong when the Enterprise crew are right, and it stinks of bad writing. In order to paint the Enterprise crew as sympathetic despite committing an actual crime, the writers dumb down the other Starfleet personnel. Morrow and the Excelsior captain are idiots for no real reason except to make Kirk et. al. look better. Why doesn't Morrow look up katras? Are they nigh-mythical? Does he think Vulcan mysticism is a bunch of spiritual mumbo-jumbo? Is making snap judgements in his character? "Well, uh, no, uh, he, er, HE JUST DOESN'T, OKAY?!"
And I mean, why is the Excelsior captain such an obnoxious prick who apparently has no redeeming qualities? Surely Starfleet would pick an accomplished commander for their newest and most ambitious starship. "Well, he, uh... uh... AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH *runs away*"
I mean, this is the same writer/director pair that gave us the trope namer for Space Whale Aesop.
Though again, Morrow has a good in-universe reason not to send warships to Genesis. The planet is a political powder keg and he doesn't want the Federation to come off as being aggressive. It may not have been the right choice, but it makes sense based on Federation philosophy.
Morrow's actual mistakes, namely not looking up katras* and not expecting the Klingons to come snooping, are not some integral part of his character (if indeed he actually has any character. He probably exists entirely to cause problems for Kirk et. al.)
*And remember that until Sarek came around, Kirk had no idea that this "resurrection through katra" thing existed either, despite having a vulcan best friend for decades. You'd think that after all those near-deaths, Spock would have taken Kirk aside and said "Hey Jim, let me show you a trick in case I kick the bucket again."
tl;dr The only reason Morrow et. al. are written so stupid is to make Kirk et. al. look better when they do something stupid and of questionable legality.
It is possible that each House is its own government that controls one or more planets or star systems. In theory, Lunar Humans and Martian Humans would be different from us due to their alien environment and possible genetic engineering to adapt to the Moon and Mars. Have humans on an exotic alien world with a completely different ecosystem living for a thousand years and they would look different from us. Might end up with blue skin or some weird appendage. The same thing could happen with the Houses. Each House adapted to a different alien world and evolved differently as a result. Therefore, it could be possible to see TOS Klingons and TNG Klingons in Discovery.