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How are you going to watch Discovery?

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  • silverlobes#2676 silverlobes Member Posts: 1,953 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    jonsills wrote: »
    No, Patrick, I haven't run across any half-chimps lately, our president notwithstanding. And if we're going to take a realistic view of genetics, Spock and B'ellana are, quite simply, impossible. They cannot exist. Further, even assuming human and Vulcan sex organs are compatible, an attraction between Sarek and Amanda seems roughly as likely as an attraction between an average human and a silverback gorilla. Whatever Vulcans find attractive in a mate, it seems unlikely that Amanda will exude it - she would feel wrong.

    In the event, in the universe we're presented, cross-species hybrids are both not uncommon and produced without medical intervention. Spock is there, B'ellana is there, the young crewman of the Ent-D with one Romulan grandparent is there. It's apparent that biology as we understand it does not apply.

    The problem here is that you're arguing as a biologist. As we understand the science, the whole thing indeed makes no sense. However, that doesn't matter. It's as if I argued holodecks based on physics - a hologram is, to simplify enormously, a standing-wave light projection, with no mass, and possesses no tangible existence worth worrying about. Yet in TNG and later series, the holodeck could produce physical objects, up to and including a snowball that could be thrown out through the holodeck door to hit Picard. No, it doesn't make sense. We just let it slide because if we insist on using proper physics, the story goes away. The same applies to realistic biology and evolution in Trek; it gets technobabbled away.

    And if this presents you with too much of an issue, please recall that you're analyzing what little we know about these Klingons (and frankly, it's not much) in terms of Terran biology. It may not even apply to their species, just as "reptilian" is only a loose approximation of the biology of the Gorn.

    Jon, treat it like a spectrum-the spectrum of suspenders of disbelief.

    We KNOW how Human/Vulcan babies are made-they're made in a lab, as shown in detail in the last couple REAL episodes of Enterprise (before the producers gave the fandom the finger with that 'series finale').

    we also know that half and quarter Klingon babies are made in bedrooms (B'Lanna Torres), which is actually supported by Human DNA being compatible enough with Klingon DNA that human designed tweaks designed for human beings work on Klingons...(which indicates a closer relationship biologically with humans than either species is likely to want to admit to.)

    but then, here comes Fuller's Klingons out of left field and down the other side of the frikking city the stadium's been built in.

    Fuller's inconsistencies are hella bigger than the ridges/no ridges change-because the changes are a lot more and deeper than a few extra heavy bone ridges on the face and some weird customs and habits. why? his changes go straight INTO the biology and evolutionary path. where before, Klingon/Human was a lot like Wolf/Dog in differences, this is more like alligator/ape differences.

    to get purple, for example, you're on a whole class of elements that are flat out incompatible with iron/carbon chemistry at all. we're talking stuff that's outright toxic (and not just toxic in large amounts like copper is, but outright nasty toxic, as in your body can't process the element toxic.)

    The before/after Klingons are carbon/oxygen/iron based lifeforms, fuller's aren't. they might make sense as synthetic lifeforms, like Silverberg's Androids in "The Tower of Glass" but they don't make sense as part of the same genus, nevermind species, as Enterprise, TOS, TMP, TNG, DS9, or Voyager Klingons do.

    I note that Vulcans use copper as the oxygen molecule carrier in their blood-and humans die without trace copper in their diet-the chemical balances might be different, but they use the same chemicals in different proportions. Pretty sure something that uses, say, Silver (which at least rusts the right colour for mister Kol there...) as the oxygen carrier isn't going to be able to eat the same food without dying.

    the spectrum basically goes to "the point at which you can't rationalize it, even using bad science from outdated eras" (like Spock's greeen blood, which was fine using 1950s spec-fic, but collapses under 1980s and latter, but was kept because it was traditional to the setting). The extent of the changes is MAJOR. We're talking less than a century for Fuller's 'default' Klingon (per the ST:LV panel) to go from carbon/oxygen/iron, warm-blooded fur-bearing mammals, to whatever the **** his new, arted-up 'variant' is, then back again in under a decade to what they were a century prior.

    It's not a 'miniscule change', it's not even as miniscule as Andromeda's "Heavy worlders" or Jinxians from Known Space here. we're talking fundamental organ function here, base biochemistry inside the same species.
    To be precise, we know where a human/Vulcan baby came from ;)

    Elizabeth was created in a lab, to be used as a piece of political propaganda false-flag scare tactics. Not to provide necessary IVF treatment for a human/Vulcan couple, but to be used to say "LOOK AT THIS!!! LOOK WHAT CAN HAPPEN!!!"

    When Riker and Pulaski were cloned without their consent, they went in phasers blazing. When Elizabeth died (due to errors in the cloning process, not biological incompatibilities) Trip and T'Pol, acted like they'd actually lost a child.

    Writer's fiats for sure, and written in different times, but that's referenced to point out that different writers write differently, even on the same overall subject.

    Just because Elizabeth was created in a lab, it doesn't mean that all hybrid children were similarly gene-engineered, and given instances such as Ba'el and Miral Paris, the overall suggestion is beds, rather than petri-dishes ;) As jonsills said, if we look too deeply into the science of the stories, all we do is shatter the illusion and snap the suspenders of disbelief, leaving us with the Pants of Plot round our ankles.

    If we accept the Discovery Klingons as a variation in the species, either environmentally moulded, gene-engineered in a lab, or just selectively bred eugenics-style, we have, at worst, a situation like I mentioned with the in-game currencies, of someone starting out with zen, converting the zen into ec, and then being stuck with ec, rather than being able to backwards convert it to zen or dil. If we go to your level of 'blood-chemistry says no'; Suspenders snap, pants round the ankles, meaning we're not even left with something to potentially enjoy As A Story, because we've already glanced behind the curtain.

    I don't particularly like the Discovery Klingons, or rather, I don't like the reasons being handwaved for their difference to what we've come to know as Klingons for the past 30 years. Had they simply gone with a slightly less radical design (such as losing the pronouncement of the additional upper-head ridges) and explained the baldness as either a cultural practice (like monks shaving their heads) or Some Other Reason, it might not be so bad.

    But they didn't.

    Rather than just making them some new alien species, they had to TRIBBLE with canon and to say they were Klingons :confounded: They're the perfect example of why I don't want Discovery to even make it to air: The instant that episode is aired, it gets ushered into canon, impacting all the work over the past 50 years (unless they were to say it was either a reboot or alternate universe) If Discovery never made it to air, then we could all simply wake up in the shower (Starship Troopers-style) knowing that it was all just a bad dream, and that JR was still alive. But once it's aired, Pandora's Box opens, and the genie is out of the bottle... :confounded:

    As Kirk Lazarus as SSG Lincoln Osiris said, you don't ever wanna go Full darteR. They went Full darteR on this project, and may god have mercy on their souls...
    "I fight for the Users!" - Tron

    "I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,966 Arc User
    > @silverlobes#2676 said:

    > In Star Trek, the different alien races can interbreed, because they were all seeded by the Preservers, rather than being true evolutionary lines from their own individual planets. That they were all seeded from the same source, despite their cosmetic differences, that similarity is still encoded which allows for the smooth interbreeding (like B'Elanna, and Ba'el)

    That's still complete nonsense, though. All life on EARTH comes from the same source but, as Patrick noted, you don't see many half-chimpanzees despite them sharing 99% of our DNA. Now, modern humans ARE actually hybrids—mix of Cro-Magnon (the original Homo sapiens), Neanderthal, Homo erectus, a couple others—but even with the common ancestry of the Preserver program, a half-Klingon or half-Vulcan is less like a Cro-Magnon breeding with a Neanderthal or a dog with a wolf, and more like expecting a human to successfully breed with a bumblebee.

    Basically, Star Trek has no damn clue how biology or genetics work and never has: Spock's and B'Elanna's existence is "crack in the event horizon"-level nonsense.
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
    — Sabaton, "Great War"
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  • silverlobes#2676 silverlobes Member Posts: 1,953 Arc User
    starswordc wrote: »
    > @silverlobes#2676 said:

    > In Star Trek, the different alien races can interbreed, because they were all seeded by the Preservers, rather than being true evolutionary lines from their own individual planets. That they were all seeded from the same source, despite their cosmetic differences, that similarity is still encoded which allows for the smooth interbreeding (like B'Elanna, and Ba'el)

    That's still complete nonsense, though. All life on EARTH comes from the same source but, as Patrick noted, you don't see many half-chimpanzees despite them sharing 99% of our DNA. Now, modern humans ARE actually hybrids—mix of Cro-Magnon (the original Homo sapiens), Neanderthal, Homo erectus, a couple others—but even with the common ancestry of the Preserver program, a half-Klingon or half-Vulcan is less like a Cro-Magnon breeding with a Neanderthal or a dog with a wolf, and more like expecting a human to successfully breed with a bumblebee.

    Basically, Star Trek has no damn clue how biology or genetics work and never has: Spock's and B'Elanna's existence is "crack in the event horizon"-level nonsense.
    It doesn't matter if it's nonsense as per real world biological science. ITS FICTION. It's purpose is to ENTERTAIN.
    :tongue:

    I don't disagree with the points either of you are making in terms of validity, I'm disagreeing with them in terms of the lack of necessity of making them.

    In the Universe of Star Trek, it was said that the sentient lifeforms we saw, came into being because the Preservers sowed the seeds, and alien species can interbreed. That's all that needs to be said. Discussion over. Doesn't matter if it's real world-feasible or not, Because It's A Story. It only has to entertain :sunglasses: Taking it any further, as I said, snaps the suspenders of disbelief and leaves us with the pants of plot round our ankles wondering what happened: You looked too closely and broke the magic. That's what happened ;)
    "I fight for the Users!" - Tron

    "I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,966 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    ^No, you're really not understanding my point (which I guess was directed more at Patrick). We've been deep into the weeds on scientific plausibility from the get-go, so the latest stuff about the Klingons is frankly peanuts.
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
    — Sabaton, "Great War"
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    Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
  • silverlobes#2676 silverlobes Member Posts: 1,953 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    starswordc wrote: »
    ^No, you're really not understanding my point (which I guess was directed more at Patrick). We've been deep into the weeds on scientific plausibility from the get-go, so the latest stuff about the Klingons is frankly peanuts.
    Ah, I see what you're meaning... Yeah, in the grand scheme if things, yes, it's peanuts: The straw that broke the camel's back, as it were :sunglasses:

    It's like I've been saying all along, had they initially said "Following on from the popularity of the recent movies, we're going to be doing a series to explore that further," I doubt there'd be a 100 page flame-thread about it (I'd certainly have no issue with that premise, and would be interested in watching it) I think it's a case of they just went about it all wrong, and turned left every time they should've gone right.

    On an unrelated note, have you guys considered collaborating on a non-Trek contemporary techno-thriller? (or if you want to go Old Skool, set it during the Vietnam War) The way you guys write, would be perfect for such a work :sunglasses:

    *Extratextbecausereasons
    "I fight for the Users!" - Tron

    "I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,966 Arc User
    But just to continue my earlier point, they're having to rewrite a lot of the phylum ladders (don't know the technical term) IRL because DNA is proving that a lot of species we thought were closely related, like American and Australian finches, really aren't: they've just been pushed by convergent evolution into similar forms because they occupy similar niches. Similarly, even two species as apparently similar as humans and Bajorans shouldn't be remotely interfertile, never mind humans and Vulcanoids. And a hominid and a REPTILE? Sorry, Tora Ziyal, you don't exist.
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
    — Sabaton, "Great War"
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  • silverlobes#2676 silverlobes Member Posts: 1,953 Arc User
    starswordc wrote: »
    But just to continue my earlier point, they're having to rewrite a lot of the phylum ladders (don't know the technical term) IRL because DNA is proving that a lot of species we thought were closely related, like American and Australian finches, really aren't: they've just been pushed by convergent evolution into similar forms because they occupy similar niches. Similarly, even two species as apparently similar as humans and Bajorans shouldn't be remotely interfertile, never mind humans and Vulcanoids. And a hominid and a REPTILE? Sorry, Tora Ziyal, you don't exist.
    For sure, science is always learning and updating :sunglasses: Sheeit, back when I was a kid, the world was flat and I had to hit two stones together to get fire ;)
    "I fight for the Users!" - Tron

    "I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
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  • silverlobes#2676 silverlobes Member Posts: 1,953 Arc User
    Yeah, even that would have been better than what they're going with. Saddens me to see, and why I just won't be tuning in :(
    "I fight for the Users!" - Tron

    "I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
  • where2r1where2r1 Member Posts: 6,054 Arc User
    I hate that you make me think of horrible things, Patrickngo.

    Those Klingons with variations and mutations to skull shapes and adaptations to ridges...the virus would have killed them. They are gone and extinct because their skull shapes that supported vital functions for survival.

    It would have been complete extinction on Klingon planets, and of Houses, where the virus changed physiology would not support them in environment they lived in...they could not adapt quickly enough.

    Hence, one would only see those Klingons that survived that tragedy going forward.

    It makes me wonder: who benefits from this virus outbreak?
    "Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK

    “Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
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  • silverlobes#2676 silverlobes Member Posts: 1,953 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    where2r1 wrote: »
    I hate that you make me think of horrible things, Patrickngo.

    Those Klingons with variations and mutations to skull shapes and adaptations to ridges...the virus would have killed them. They are gone and extinct because their skull shapes that supported vital functions for survival.

    It would have been complete extinction on Klingon planets, and of Houses, where the virus changed physiology would not support them in environment they lived in...they could not adapt quickly enough.

    Hence, one would only see those Klingons that survived that tragedy going forward.

    It makes me wonder: who benefits from this virus outbreak?

    obviously conservatives who didn't opt to adapt the fashionable gene and body mods, Klingons from families and strata of society that could not/weren't permitted to use the tech, aka the peasants.

    I mean, if we go with a model where the Nobility (and let's face it, all that gold and gilt and ritual? the working classes wouldn't have time for ANY of that. ditto for extensive body mods or genetic surgeries) are the focus of these changes, (and given that that's who has the speaking parts and actors and such, it's pretty likely-nobody's going to pay CBS to watch the klingon equivalent of Joe Dirt muck out the waste reclamation system) Your die-off is probably a lot less extensive below a certain tier of society. You end up with something like the impact that the Bubonic Plague had on Europe, where the top tier was disproportionally vulnerable and opportunity opened up for social promotion. (without the Black Plague, Europe would have wound up with a caste system like India).

    which actually kinda fits with the culture of the Klingons we're all familiar with, where pragmatism tops ritualism and action is more important than words (*and where a man like Martok, from humble beginnings, can become the founder of a noble house in his own right).

    'wild' genes tend to surpass 'engineered' genes with animals on earth. we see this with Mutt/Dog/Wolf comparisons-purebreds are generally less survivable in the wild, than mutts or crossbreeds that angle closer to the root species stock. (Mutts tend to be smarter, tougher, and better survivors than purebreds, also less vulnerable to an array of maladies).

    In other words, the Augment virus may be killing the top tiers of Klingon society because it's interacting with their "noble" alterations, while Klingons from conservative families, or who didn't opt for the genetic surgeries, might have a higher survival rate while, (at the time of Discovery) being looked down on as "less Klingon" because their tastes or choices to remain closer to baseline don't grant the court-advantages and hothouse advantages that those with more radical "Apex Predator" adaptations possess.

    aka Kol might be from the same "House" as Kor, but Kor's branch of the family didn't opt in for the mod, while Kol's did. Maybe they couldn't afford it, maybe there was a philosophical difference. whichever it is, when they both get sick via exposure to the Augment virus, Kor survives, and Kol does not.

    But that theory only works if the ridged klingons we're familiar wiht from Enterprise and TNG eras were the baseline, while the Fuller Klingons are the genetic freaks, and wind up dying out because they were over-engineered and lost the ability to adapt.
    Precisely my point with the comparison to in-game currency: Once one has ec, it's pretty much staying as ec (or maybe being converted back to keys, then to lobi) It's not going back to dil or zen.
    "I fight for the Users!" - Tron

    "I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,478 Arc User
    artan42 wrote: »
    Or possibly judgemental, hyperactive, preemptive, change resistant, gun-jumping, pale-skinned, self-destructive, whining fanbois.
    That's an unfair and prejudiced statement, artan, and you really should retract it. Anyone, of any ethnicity, is fully capable of having such rigidity of thought patterns that they cannot accept the new - pale-skinned people just get more attention.
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  • silverlobes#2676 silverlobes Member Posts: 1,953 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    jonsills wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    Or possibly judgemental, hyperactive, preemptive, change resistant, gun-jumping, pale-skinned, self-destructive, whining fanbois.
    That's an unfair and prejudiced statement, artan, and you really should retract it. Anyone, of any ethnicity, is fully capable of having such rigidity of thought patterns that they cannot accept the new - pale-skinned people just get more attention.

    Artan is allowed to defend his views in the traditional, american way by slinging insults and attacking the character of the people he's debating with (up to t he limit of the Forum rules), it's not a bother, it's more revelatory of his investment in the topic.

    it's interesting that he brings real world racial 'discussion' terms into an argument about fictional aliens on subscription based teevee show, esp. when the fictional people we're talking about run from blue-gray to purple and are allegedly teh same race as a fictional species whose skin tones ran from light pink to dark-brown (and whose main iconic character was played by Michael Dorn using Michael Dorn's own skin tone...which is dark brown.)

    kinda shows how utterly unhinged people get on things they're actually fans of...

    I'm reminded of this scene in Chasing Amy:

    Holden: Ah, come on, that's a bunch of horse s**t! Lando Calrissian was a black guy. You know. He got to fly the Millennium Falcon, what's the matter with you?
    Hooper: Who said that?
    Holden: I did! Lando Calrissian is a positive role-model in the realm of science-fiction/fantasy.
    Hooper: F**k Lando Calrissian! Uncle Tom n****r!
    "I fight for the Users!" - Tron

    "I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
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  • silverlobes#2676 silverlobes Member Posts: 1,953 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    One of those things Science fiction fans are notorious for (with good franchises) is picking them apart for the imaginary functional details of the setting. Trek actually survived off this for a long time, and you can still set off epic flamewars with "Star Wars ships are faster than the Enterprise" comparison threads.

    which gets people with internet access and an interest, (but not a paid interest) in physics to post vast stacks of math and citations of current bleeding-edge physics to win the point.

    often so far beyond what the writers of these space-operas intended, that it leaves pro-showrunners confused and befuddled.


    (The term "Technobabble" was actually USED on early script drafts in TNG,DS9, and especially Voyager. This is actually in the 'extras' on the DVD sets).

    One of the core jokes in "Galaxy Quest" was that the audience knew more about how the ship worked, than the writers, directors, or actors on the show did.

    to the point that an entire race of "Superfans" actually made it work (which is in itself a nod to the technologies inspired by Star Trek).

    within fandoms, now, Trek people tend to be and lean more analytical than Warsies do (though they've got their share of obsessive analyticals as well). The core difference is that Star Trek involved serious science fiction writers in the show early on, and kept using them until very recently. Larry Niven licensed his stuff for the Animated Series, DC Fontana was a hard science fiction writer, and so on.

    They even hired Harlan Ellison ("City on the edge of forever").

    so when you lead off with "this is set in an established era" and then toss everything but the communicators and phasers out the airlock, people are going to be critical. Compound that with "We're going to completely redesign a species with more screen time than Spock for "reasons"."

    That's going to get people in that analytical mode looking closer. When the designer goes over it in a panel discussion at ST:LV and makes his case-and that case is weak, it's GOING TO BE POINTED OUT. In excruciating detail, because we're talking as Trekkies/Trekkers, and we're an analytical, detail oriented bunch and our favourite science fiction franchise, while it's still space opera/fantasy, has hard science fiction roots. (Unlike, say, Star Wars, which has always been fantasy-with-rivets from the get-go.)
    You mean like how, every time Tim Russ appeared pre-Voyager, it was actually Tuvok undercover? ;)

    For sure, there's fun in speculation and conjecture, so long as it stays civil, and comments like that one of artan's, stooping to race-baiting, there ain't no need for that :-\
    "I fight for the Users!" - Tron

    "I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,966 Arc User
    You mean like how, every time Tim Russ appeared pre-Voyager, it was actually Tuvok undercover? ;)

    For sure, there's fun in speculation and conjecture, so long as it stays civil, and comments like that one of artan's, stooping to race-baiting, there ain't no need for that :-\

    I strongly doubt he was race-baiting. It's much more likely he was obliquely saying "basement-dweller" (as in, guy has pale skin because he doesn't leave the basement). Protip, brown people tan, too.
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
    — Sabaton, "Great War"
    VZ9ASdg.png

    Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    jonsills wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    Or possibly judgemental, hyperactive, preemptive, change resistant, gun-jumping, pale-skinned, self-destructive, whining fanbois.
    That's an unfair and prejudiced statement, artan, and you really should retract it. Anyone, of any ethnicity, is fully capable of having such rigidity of thought patterns that they cannot accept the new - pale-skinned people just get more attention.

    I do apologise to any judgemental, hyperactive, preemptive, change resistant, gun-jumping, self-destructive, whining fanbois who happen to belong to any non-white ethnic group (or white ethnic groups with darker skin), it was not my intent to exclude you.
    patrickngo wrote: »
    Artan is allowed to defend his views in the traditional, american way by slinging insults and attacking the character of the people he's debating with (up to t he limit of the Forum rules), it's not a bother, it's more revelatory of his investment in the topic.

    Darn tootin' I am. It's my fifth amendment right. Or first, or something, I dunno.

    But yeah, I'm kinda invested, you know, being a fan of the franchise and all and watching other self proclaimed fans trying to destroy it for others because it's not exactly what they wanted. I really doubt I was being harsh or rude enough on them.​​
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

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  • silverlobes#2676 silverlobes Member Posts: 1,953 Arc User
    starswordc wrote: »
    You mean like how, every time Tim Russ appeared pre-Voyager, it was actually Tuvok undercover? ;)

    For sure, there's fun in speculation and conjecture, so long as it stays civil, and comments like that one of artan's, stooping to race-baiting, there ain't no need for that :-\

    I strongly doubt he was race-baiting. It's much more likely he was obliquely saying "basement-dweller" (as in, guy has pale skin because he doesn't leave the basement). Protip, brown people tan, too.
    If you say so :sunglasses:
    "I fight for the Users!" - Tron

    "I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    starswordc wrote: »
    You mean like how, every time Tim Russ appeared pre-Voyager, it was actually Tuvok undercover? ;)

    For sure, there's fun in speculation and conjecture, so long as it stays civil, and comments like that one of artan's, stooping to race-baiting, there ain't no need for that :-\

    I strongly doubt he was race-baiting. It's much more likely he was obliquely saying "basement-dweller" (as in, guy has pale skin because he doesn't leave the basement). Protip, brown people tan, too.

    Oh, you still see that guys posts? I hid them ages ago, much nicer now there's less idiots around, though I do see them when you quote them.

    And yes, despite my reply to Jon's humorous post, I was indeed referring to sun-deprived basement dwellers. I'm struggling to see how anybody would stretch that into a 'race-baiting' accusation though, although logical or even clear headed thinking isn't exactly silverlobes' strong suite. Even black people pale in lack of sunlight.

    Though I'm going to accuse you of sexbaiting with your sexist assumption basement dwelling fanbois are all male (as in, guy has pale skin because he doesn't leave the basement)...

    :p​​
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
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  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,966 Arc User
    artan42 wrote: »
    starswordc wrote: »
    You mean like how, every time Tim Russ appeared pre-Voyager, it was actually Tuvok undercover? ;)

    For sure, there's fun in speculation and conjecture, so long as it stays civil, and comments like that one of artan's, stooping to race-baiting, there ain't no need for that :-\

    I strongly doubt he was race-baiting. It's much more likely he was obliquely saying "basement-dweller" (as in, guy has pale skin because he doesn't leave the basement). Protip, brown people tan, too.

    Oh, you still see that guys posts? I hid them ages ago, much nicer now there's less idiots around, though I do see them when you quote them.

    And yes, despite my reply to Jon's humorous post, I was indeed referring to sun-deprived basement dwellers. I'm struggling to see how anybody would stretch that into a 'race-baiting' accusation though, although logical or even clear headed thinking isn't exactly silverlobes' strong suite. Even black people pale in lack of sunlight.

    Though I'm going to accuse you of sexbaiting with your sexist assumption basement dwelling fanbois are all male (as in, guy has pale skin because he doesn't leave the basement)...

    :p​​

    Yeah, he pulled the same dren on me when I was trying to make a point about what makes Star Trek what it is and described Kirk (without naming him) as a "brown-haired, brown-eyed white guy". (The context being that it's that the characters behave a certain way when compared with other space opera settings, rather than cosmetic details like what the set looks like.)
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
    — Sabaton, "Great War"
    VZ9ASdg.png

    Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
  • This content has been removed.
  • silverlobes#2676 silverlobes Member Posts: 1,953 Arc User
    edited September 2017

    starswordc wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    starswordc wrote: »
    You mean like how, every time Tim Russ appeared pre-Voyager, it was actually Tuvok undercover? ;)

    For sure, there's fun in speculation and conjecture, so long as it stays civil, and comments like that one of artan's, stooping to race-baiting, there ain't no need for that :-\

    I strongly doubt he was race-baiting. It's much more likely he was obliquely saying "basement-dweller" (as in, guy has pale skin because he doesn't leave the basement). Protip, brown people tan, too.

    Oh, you still see that guys posts? I hid them ages ago, much nicer now there's less idiots around, though I do see them when you quote them.

    And yes, despite my reply to Jon's humorous post, I was indeed referring to sun-deprived basement dwellers. I'm struggling to see how anybody would stretch that into a 'race-baiting' accusation though, although logical or even clear headed thinking isn't exactly silverlobes' strong suite. Even black people pale in lack of sunlight.

    Though I'm going to accuse you of sexbaiting with your sexist assumption basement dwelling fanbois are all male (as in, guy has pale skin because he doesn't leave the basement)...

    :p​​

    Yeah, he pulled the same dren on me when I was trying to make a point about what makes Star Trek what it is and described Kirk (without naming him) as a "brown-haired, brown-eyed white guy". (The context being that it's that the characters behave a certain way when compared with other space opera settings, rather than cosmetic details like what the set looks like.)
    Given your clear social leanings, the use of such phrasing, comes across as racially charged identity politics. You openly admitted the other day that you are high-functioning autistic: My nephew is autistic, so I'm not unsympathetic, but Be Mindful that what one types, can (even at the best of times) be received in ways other than what one intends when writing. And given the current social climate, where identity politics is a big deal, any phrases specifically highlighting someones racial and or physical characteristics (which is what you did) is as likely going to be perceived as racially charged unless clearly specified as otherwise, as viewed solely as the purely literal description you say that you intended.

    *Edit: I apologize if I misunderstood your intent and for reacting as I did. But in a world where it's only okay to make fun of someone's sexuality or race if they're a straight white guy, it's easy to make that misunderstanding from someone who seemingly goes out of their way to employ conspicuous diversity in their writing.
    "I fight for the Users!" - Tron

    "I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,478 Arc User
    artan42 wrote: »
    jonsills wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    Or possibly judgemental, hyperactive, preemptive, change resistant, gun-jumping, pale-skinned, self-destructive, whining fanbois.
    That's an unfair and prejudiced statement, artan, and you really should retract it. Anyone, of any ethnicity, is fully capable of having such rigidity of thought patterns that they cannot accept the new - pale-skinned people just get more attention.

    I do apologise to any judgemental, hyperactive, preemptive, change resistant, gun-jumping, self-destructive, whining fanbois who happen to belong to any non-white ethnic group (or white ethnic groups with darker skin), it was not my intent to exclude you.
    Thank you. It's always better to be inclusive. :smile:
    Lorna-Wing-sig.png
  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,966 Arc User
    starswordc wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    starswordc wrote: »
    You mean like how, every time Tim Russ appeared pre-Voyager, it was actually Tuvok undercover? ;)

    For sure, there's fun in speculation and conjecture, so long as it stays civil, and comments like that one of artan's, stooping to race-baiting, there ain't no need for that :-\

    I strongly doubt he was race-baiting. It's much more likely he was obliquely saying "basement-dweller" (as in, guy has pale skin because he doesn't leave the basement). Protip, brown people tan, too.

    Oh, you still see that guys posts? I hid them ages ago, much nicer now there's less idiots around, though I do see them when you quote them.

    And yes, despite my reply to Jon's humorous post, I was indeed referring to sun-deprived basement dwellers. I'm struggling to see how anybody would stretch that into a 'race-baiting' accusation though, although logical or even clear headed thinking isn't exactly silverlobes' strong suite. Even black people pale in lack of sunlight.

    Though I'm going to accuse you of sexbaiting with your sexist assumption basement dwelling fanbois are all male (as in, guy has pale skin because he doesn't leave the basement)...

    :p​​

    Yeah, he pulled the same dren on me when I was trying to make a point about what makes Star Trek what it is and described Kirk (without naming him) as a "brown-haired, brown-eyed white guy". (The context being that it's that the characters behave a certain way when compared with other space opera settings, rather than cosmetic details like what the set looks like.)
    Given your clear social leanings, the use of such phrasing, comes across as racially charged identity politics. You openly admitted the other day that you are high-functioning autistic: My nephew is autistic, so I'm not unsympathetic, but Be Mindful that what one types, can (even at the best of times) be received in ways other than what one intends when writing. And given the current social climate, where identity politics is a big deal, any phrases specifically highlighting someones racial and or physical characteristics (which is what you did) is as likely going to be perceived as racially charged unless clearly specified as otherwise, as viewed solely as the purely literal description you say that you intended.

    *Edit: I apologize if I misunderstood your intent and for reacting as I did. But in a world where it's only okay to make fun of someone's sexuality or race if they're a straight white guy, it's easy to make that misunderstanding from someone who seemingly goes out of their way to employ conspicuous diversity in their writing.

    "Identity politics" is an extremely poor term. I prefer the word "empathy", in this case empathy to the fact that different people sometimes have different needs and priorities. And it's not something that's specific to particular "racial" groups: a white guy from the big city can have different needs than a white guy from the country. (For example, city person maybe needs a small hybrid or electric car to save on gas in stop-and-go traffic, country guy needs a pickup truck to haul his trash to the dump since there's no garbage trucks in Nowhere County, USA. Or me: being a semi-rural tradesman, I need a smallish, reliable, cheap-to-operate vehicle with cargo capacity for my tools, and all-wheel drive in case I have to drive onto a muddy construction site, so I drive an old Subaru Forester.)

    It's also empathy to the fact that different people also have a lot of the same needs and priorities, like the need to have a full stomach and a safe place to crash at the end of the day. We don't all laugh at the same jokes, but we do tend to hurt from the same wrongs.

    As for my extensive use of diverse characters? I'm quite proud of that, especially in my Star Trek fiction. Star Trek purports to represent Earth's future, and Earth has many different cultures and kinds of people, so why shouldn't they be represented in Star Trek? I view it as a challenge to myself to research and create characters who are outside of my own personal experiences. I'm also a social sciences nerd: I like learning about history, theology, and languages and using those learnings in my writing.

    Your problem is, you zero in on the buzzwords as an excuse to ignore the larger points. I freely admit I don't always explain those larger points well, but you would rather argue details than big picture so you can close your mind to the details that disagree with your preconceptions.
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
    — Sabaton, "Great War"
    VZ9ASdg.png

    Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
  • silverlobes#2676 silverlobes Member Posts: 1,953 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    starswordc wrote: »
    starswordc wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    starswordc wrote: »
    You mean like how, every time Tim Russ appeared pre-Voyager, it was actually Tuvok undercover? ;)

    For sure, there's fun in speculation and conjecture, so long as it stays civil, and comments like that one of artan's, stooping to race-baiting, there ain't no need for that :-\

    I strongly doubt he was race-baiting. It's much more likely he was obliquely saying "basement-dweller" (as in, guy has pale skin because he doesn't leave the basement). Protip, brown people tan, too.

    Oh, you still see that guys posts? I hid them ages ago, much nicer now there's less idiots around, though I do see them when you quote them.

    And yes, despite my reply to Jon's humorous post, I was indeed referring to sun-deprived basement dwellers. I'm struggling to see how anybody would stretch that into a 'race-baiting' accusation though, although logical or even clear headed thinking isn't exactly silverlobes' strong suite. Even black people pale in lack of sunlight.

    Though I'm going to accuse you of sexbaiting with your sexist assumption basement dwelling fanbois are all male (as in, guy has pale skin because he doesn't leave the basement)...

    :p​​

    Yeah, he pulled the same dren on me when I was trying to make a point about what makes Star Trek what it is and described Kirk (without naming him) as a "brown-haired, brown-eyed white guy". (The context being that it's that the characters behave a certain way when compared with other space opera settings, rather than cosmetic details like what the set looks like.)
    Given your clear social leanings, the use of such phrasing, comes across as racially charged identity politics. You openly admitted the other day that you are high-functioning autistic: My nephew is autistic, so I'm not unsympathetic, but Be Mindful that what one types, can (even at the best of times) be received in ways other than what one intends when writing. And given the current social climate, where identity politics is a big deal, any phrases specifically highlighting someones racial and or physical characteristics (which is what you did) is as likely going to be perceived as racially charged unless clearly specified as otherwise, as viewed solely as the purely literal description you say that you intended.

    *Edit: I apologize if I misunderstood your intent and for reacting as I did. But in a world where it's only okay to make fun of someone's sexuality or race if they're a straight white guy, it's easy to make that misunderstanding from someone who seemingly goes out of their way to employ conspicuous diversity in their writing.

    "Identity politics" is an extremely poor term.
    It is what it is. I didn't create the term or the notion, but it's a concept which I find tedious, extremely narrow in focus and divisive, and usually only used as part of the oppression olympics which is so popular at the moment, so I don't have any patience to deal with it. Like I said, I apologize if I misunderstood your meaning, but the phrasing, came across as intentionally baiting for a loaded question (even if that wasn't your intent) and even though I acknowledge that I misinterpreted it and overreacted, you also need to appreciate that the phrasing, in today's climate, and the context in which it was used, was certainly open to misinterpretation, even if unintentional on your part :sunglasses:
    I prefer the word "empathy", in this case empathy to the fact that different people sometimes have different needs and priorities. And it's not something that's specific to particular "racial" groups: a white guy from the big city can have different needs than a white guy from the country. (For example, city person maybe needs a small hybrid or electric car to save on gas in stop-and-go traffic, country guy needs a pickup truck to haul his trash to the dump since there's no garbage trucks in Nowhere County, USA. Or me: being a semi-rural tradesman, I need a smallish, reliable, cheap-to-operate vehicle with cargo capacity for my tools, and all-wheel drive in case I have to drive onto a muddy construction site, so I drive an old Subaru Forester.)

    It's also empathy to the fact that different people also have a lot of the same needs and priorities, like the need to have a full stomach and a safe place to crash at the end of the day. We don't all laugh at the same jokes, but we do tend to hurt from the same wrongs.
    Yes, empathize is what I was meaning (I didn't want to risk summoning the forum edit monster again, just to correct that post.) If I know that someone is on the spectrum, I'm happy to take that into account when interacting with them and tailor my reactions to them accordingly :sunglasses:
    As for my extensive use of diverse characters? I'm quite proud of that, especially in my Star Trek fiction. Star Trek purports to represent Earth's future, and Earth has many different cultures and kinds of people, so why shouldn't they be represented in Star Trek? I view it as a challenge to myself to research and create characters who are outside of my own personal experiences. I'm also a social sciences nerd: I like learning about history, theology, and languages and using those learnings in my writing.
    I'm not knocking it, I agree with your rationale, and you handle it well. What I was meaning, is that when people make comments of a particular kind, it can be suggestive of their overall mindset and ideologies. Which is why given your interest in that diversity, and frequent use of it, that's why I mistook the phrase I made mention of, as being a loaded question or deliberately baiting. Like I said, I apologize for my reaction from my misunderstanding :sunglasses:
    Your problem is, you zero in on the buzzwords as an excuse to ignore the larger points. I freely admit I don't always explain those larger points well, but you would rather argue details than big picture so you can close your mind to the details that disagree with your preconceptions.
    Buzzwords, phrases and rhetoric, are what many throw around these days in substitution for actual dialogue, and critical thinking. If I see comments like that, then yes, that's going to be my initial thought. I'll consider any viewpoint openly, but if there're flaws in the premise, then yes, I will challenge those flaws. Certainly if they're being used fallaciously, and especially if if it means getting to the heart of the topic or situation. It might not always mean a comfortable conversation, but it will at least mean that all aspects get explored and considered, to leave all parties with a better understanding :sunglasses:

    *Extratextbecasereasons
    "I fight for the Users!" - Tron

    "I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
  • evilmark444evilmark444 Member Posts: 6,951 Arc User
    Since the Klingon look was confirmed to be an actual, full on revamp rather than an ancient pre-cursor or something along those lines, I've gone from "Can't wait!" to "Nope, not worth my time."
    Lifetime Subscriber since Beta
    eaY7Xxu.png
  • lordrezeonlordrezeon Member Posts: 399 Arc User
    Well then, while everyone was arguing about make believe cross pollination we finally had a few forum goers vote in favor of subscribing to CBS All Access. Looks like it isn't all totally gloom and doom for Discovery.
  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,556 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    jonsills wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    Or possibly judgemental, hyperactive, preemptive, change resistant, gun-jumping, pale-skinned, self-destructive, whining fanbois.
    That's an unfair and prejudiced statement, artan, and you really should retract it. Anyone, of any ethnicity, is fully capable of having such rigidity of thought patterns that they cannot accept the new - pale-skinned people just get more attention.

    I do apologise to any judgemental, hyperactive, preemptive, change resistant, gun-jumping, self-destructive, whining fanbois who happen to belong to any non-white ethnic group (or white ethnic groups with darker skin), it was not my intent to exclude you.
    Thank you. It's always better to be inclusive. :smile:

    Personally, I rather have people be honest instead of inclusive. If they are honest, then you know where they stand and how they treat others. I can always trust Quark to be Quark.
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