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What if all the fleet holdings were given a PUBLIC instance?

sirsitsalotsirsitsalot Member Posts: 2,338 Arc User
What if there were two options presented when visiting a fleet holding location in the game:

Approach Fleet [HoldingName]
Approach [HoldingName]

The fleet holding instance would function as it currently does. The non-fleet version woould be a progression through the fleet holding advancement that is open to everyone regardless of fleet affiliation and would be a permanant social hub that everyone would get to be a part of building.

Not everyone is part of a large fleet or part of a fleet at all. and yet with holdings being locked behind fleet membership, many players are barred frome experiencing an element of gameplay that when taken at face value is really pretty awesome.

In my history with MMOs, specifically those with an open world / sandbox element to them, the ability to work through something where the end result is a permanant addition to the game world, I can say that being able to look at the end result of a combined effort and say "I had a hand in making that" brings with it a reward that transcends any sort of loot. Because any time the public holding is visited once completed, Anyone who contributed to it can honestly say that they were part of making it happen. No matter how small that part actually was...

Obviouslu a public instance of a holding would have contribution costs much higher than a fleet instance. Something representative of potentially the entire active player population at the time the instance is deployed. But since the entire player population is free to take part, this is not really a big deal.

A leaderboard of individual contributions would ideally be a part of this, which would track contributions from both individuals and fleets.

Fleet contributions would ideally go to both the fleet instance and the public instance.

Obviously there would need to be a differentiation between the fleet and public instaces. Namely fleet stors should not be available in the public instance, so there is reason for fleets to get involved.

We all play this game. So it stands to reason that we all should be free to be a part of all aspects of the game, regardless of whether we are not affiliated with a fleet, members of a small fleet, or members of a large fleet.

Thoughs?
When it comes to MMOs, I wear prescription glasses. Whether or not they are rose-tinted is beside the point.
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Comments

  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 52,984 Community Moderator
    Honestly... that sounds a bit redundant, and would render Fleet Holdings obsolete. Not to mention all the fleets who worked hard to build up their holdings are getting the shaft as why would we bother with the fleet holdings now that we have public community holdings?
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  • sirsitsalotsirsitsalot Member Posts: 2,338 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Honestly... that sounds a bit redundant, and would render Fleet Holdings obsolete. Not to mention all the fleets who worked hard to build up their holdings are getting the shaft as why would we bother with the fleet holdings now that we have public community holdings?

    As I said, if a individual who is also a fleet member contributes to the Public holding, he or she would get credit for contributing to their fleet as well...
    When it comes to MMOs, I wear prescription glasses. Whether or not they are rose-tinted is beside the point.
  • arionisaarionisa Member Posts: 1,421 Arc User
    Just as there are perks to being a subscriber or LTS, there are perks to being a member of a Fleet. If you want subscriber/LTS perks, then pay up and get them, you want Fleet perks, join a Fleet and build up the holdings.

    If for some reason you truly hate being in a Fleet, a search for freelancers should suffice to get what you need.

    There is absolutely no reason why the Devs should make a major change to the games design to support the few who hate Fleets, especially when all Fleet stuff is already available to them if they just look for it.
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  • sirsitsalotsirsitsalot Member Posts: 2,338 Arc User
    arionisa wrote: »
    Just as there are perks to being a subscriber or LTS, there are perks to being a member of a Fleet. If you want subscriber/LTS perks, then pay up and get them, you want Fleet perks, join a Fleet and build up the holdings.

    If for some reason you truly hate being in a Fleet, a search for freelancers should suffice to get what you need.

    There is absolutely no reason why the Devs should make a major change to the games design to support the few who hate Fleets, especially when all Fleet stuff is already available to them if they just look for it.

    The problem I have is that the system as it is excludes players based on a choice of whether or not to involve themselves with a fleet. What I propose gives EVERYONE an opportunity to play a role in content that is not locked away by fleet association while still rewarding fleet association.

    Some may consider these to be fighting words but I don't give a damn. Anyone who insists that any part of content be locked away from a player or group of players is an elitist jerk and is a detriment to an MMO community. Go ahead. Bash me for that position. Prove my point for me!
    When it comes to MMOs, I wear prescription glasses. Whether or not they are rose-tinted is beside the point.
  • kf4tvikf4tvi Member Posts: 161 Arc User
    many players are barred frome experiencing an element of gameplay that when taken at face value is really pretty awesome.

    Anyone who contributed to it can honestly say that they were part of making it happen. No matter how small that part actually was...

    Obviouslu a public instance of a holding would have contribution costs much higher than a fleet instance. Something representative of potentially the entire active player population at the time the instance is deployed. But since the entire player population is free to take part, this is not really a big deal.

    A leaderboard of individual contributions would ideally be a part of this,

    We all play this game. So it stands to reason that we all should be free to be a part of all aspects of the game, regardless of whether we are not affiliated with a fleet, members of a small fleet, or members of a large fleet.

    Thoughs?

    Barred? Who is barred? I thought anyone meeting the requirements could join a fleet. Why not just join a fleet and contribute like everybody else? It just seems to me that you're trying to say, in a roundabout way, that in your opinion fleets require too much from it's members in order to reap the benefits of fleet membership? So, why would you even want to associate with a holding that you are not willing to join anyway? Why not just create your own fleet with your own requirements? Are there metrics involved I am unaware of?
  • where2r1where2r1 Member Posts: 6,054 Arc User
    I don't understand what you feel you are missing by not being in a Fleet?

    The only thing not accessible by a non-fleet member would be the ships. They would have no access to those Fleet Shipyard Provisions. But Fleet ships is not for those on a budget, that is for sure....you pay as much as a regular C-store ship but it is only unlocked to the one character that bought it.

    You know you can get an invite to see the Fleet holding areas...if you just want to look and wander around? There are even fleets that are already open to the public...I think they have a chat channel for invites. I have to send my Fed characters over to my friend's fleet to make purchases.

    Are you saying you do not play with any friends who are in a fleet at all who can invite you to shop?
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  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,117 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Honestly... that sounds a bit redundant, and would render Fleet Holdings obsolete. Not to mention all the fleets who worked hard to build up their holdings are getting the shaft as why would we bother with the fleet holdings now that we have public community holdings?


    ^^ Zactly!

    Besides, the current system already allows for ample ways to receive a public invite to a Fleet holding (store).
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  • saurializardsaurializard Member Posts: 3,616 Arc User
    Isn't that kinda the point of the Armada system to do something very similar to this? It's not public, yes, but you still don't need to belong to a specific fleet to help it and others.

    Also, once these public holdings are complete, then what? What about those who wanted to contribute? Do they get a penalty on the items to buy? How to buy those items? Would it still be possible to contribute to this public fleet?
    Or will it be demolished regularly, ruining the efforts of those who built it?
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  • corelogikcorelogik Member Posts: 1,037 Arc User
    arionisa wrote: »
    Just as there are perks to being a subscriber or LTS, there are perks to being a member of a Fleet. If you want subscriber/LTS perks, then pay up and get them, you want Fleet perks, join a Fleet and build up the holdings.

    If for some reason you truly hate being in a Fleet, a search for freelancers should suffice to get what you need.

    There is absolutely no reason why the Devs should make a major change to the games design to support the few who hate Fleets, especially when all Fleet stuff is already available to them if they just look for it.

    The problem I have is that the system as it is excludes players based on a choice of whether or not to involve themselves with a fleet. What I propose gives EVERYONE an opportunity to play a role in content that is not locked away by fleet association while still rewarding fleet association.

    Some may consider these to be fighting words but I don't give a damn. Anyone who insists that any part of content be locked away from a player or group of players is an elitist jerk and is a detriment to an MMO community. Go ahead. Bash me for that position. Prove my point for me!

    Join a fleet, contribute, buy what you want. There are many fleets that are as interactive as you want to be. Joining a fleet isn't like joining the Army where they tell you what to do, when to do it, and how it will be done. You still play as you like, doing as little or as much as you like.

    If that's still too much effort for you, as noted before, NoP gives free invites to fleets, cell ships/freighters and other "perky" benefits of fleets, with no obligation to you.

    Many of us have helped build fleets over years, spent countless millions of in-game resources and 100's to 1000's of real dollars getting to where we are and having access to what we have access to. Just because you don't want to invest the effort, is no reason to make ours worthless.
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  • sirsitsalotsirsitsalot Member Posts: 2,338 Arc User
    Use /channel_join NoP Public Service to get FREE and PUBLIC access to finished top-tier fleet holdings to buy gear at NO CHARGE.

    NoP Public Service is STO's largest channel, with just shy of 13,000 members.

    It is not about being able to buy gear. I couldn't care less about that. It's about ALL players being able to participate in building something that everyone has access to. Why is that so hard to understand?
    When it comes to MMOs, I wear prescription glasses. Whether or not they are rose-tinted is beside the point.
  • corelogikcorelogik Member Posts: 1,037 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    Use /channel_join NoP Public Service to get FREE and PUBLIC access to finished top-tier fleet holdings to buy gear at NO CHARGE.

    NoP Public Service is STO's largest channel, with just shy of 13,000 members.

    It is not about being able to buy gear. I couldn't care less about that. It's about ALL players being able to participate in building something that everyone has access to. Why is that so hard to understand?

    All players CAN participate. Find a fleet you like, and join it. There, you're participating. Aside from the factions, there is no difference from one fleet holding to the next. Every Klingon starbase looks like every other Klingon starbase, every Starfleet Embassy, looks like every other Starfleet embassy. As I said before, joining a fleet is NOT joining the military. In most fleets, you can participate as little or as much as you like.

    If not to buy gear, then I don't understand the underlying desire here. Do you just want a fleet holding you can go to and hang out in? I promise you, not a lot of "hanging out" gets done at fleet holdings regularly. Mostly just on meeting days/times. Some of the larger/older fleets may hang out there a bit more often,... Simply put, fleet holdings ARE NOT the super secret, exclusive, always busy social hubs you seem to be imagining them to be,...
    "Go play with your DPS in the corner, I don't care how big it is." ~ Me
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  • discojerdiscojer Member Posts: 511 Arc User
    The thing is, there are people known as "introverts" who really don't like constantly having to deal with other people and the nonsense that goes along with it. By locking so much stuff in this game behind fleets, you're essentially giving a big finger to introverted people.

    Offer stuff at inflated prices or something if you must penalize people, not completely give them the shaft the way things are now.

  • kf4tvikf4tvi Member Posts: 161 Arc User
    It's about ALL players being able to participate in building something that everyone has access to. Why is that so hard to understand?

    It is not hard to understand at all. As you pointed out yourself, we are ALL given a "Choice/Opportunity" to either join a fleet or not. You have chosen not to join....so what is this about? I am curious, why not simply join a fleet?

  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,117 Arc User
    corelogik wrote: »
    If not to buy gear, then I don't understand the underlying desire here. Do you just want a fleet holding you can go to and hang out in? I promise you, not a lot of "hanging out" gets done at fleet holdings regularly. Mostly just on meeting days/times. Some of the larger/older fleets may hang out there a bit more often,... Simply put, fleet holdings ARE NOT the super secret, exclusive, always busy social hubs you seem to be imagining them to be,...


    I can assure you, a Fleet holding is precisely as super secret, exclusive, and busy a social hub as... the Captain's Table is. :P
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  • kf4tvikf4tvi Member Posts: 161 Arc User
    discojer wrote: »
    The thing is, there are people known as "introverts" who really don't like constantly having to deal with other people and the nonsense that goes along with it. By locking so much stuff in this game behind fleets, you're essentially giving a big finger to introverted people.

    Offer stuff at inflated prices or something if you must penalize people, not completely give them the shaft the way things are now.

    Oh please, you are around far more people at ESD, Drozana Station, or even DS9, than at any of the fleet holdings... So for introverts maybe joining a fleet would be a perfect way around all those crowds and have easy access to exchange, bank etc...

  • echattyechatty Member Posts: 5,533 Arc User
    kf4tvi wrote: »
    discojer wrote: »
    The thing is, there are people known as "introverts" who really don't like constantly having to deal with other people and the nonsense that goes along with it. By locking so much stuff in this game behind fleets, you're essentially giving a big finger to introverted people.

    Offer stuff at inflated prices or something if you must penalize people, not completely give them the shaft the way things are now.

    Oh please, you are around far more people at ESD, Drozana Station, or even DS9, than at any of the fleet holdings... So for introverts maybe joining a fleet would be a perfect way around all those crowds and have easy access to exchange, bank etc...

    QFT

    Fleet holdings are usually as *dead* as dead can be. Unless there's an RP going on, you won't find fleet members at fleet holdings, just the NPCs walking around and sometimes through you.

    The fleet I belong to is very small and very slow-growing, but we like it that way. Would I like access to more fleet stuff? Yes. But I'm content to wait and grow our holdings to open up the stuff I want to get.

    If you're just looking for another social zone, fleet holdings aren't the place to go. There's very little social going on at any of them.
    Now a LTS and loving it.

    Just because you spend money on this game, it does not entitle you to be a jerk if things don't go your way.

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  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,117 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    kf4tvi wrote: »
    discojer wrote: »
    The thing is, there are people known as "introverts" who really don't like constantly having to deal with other people and the nonsense that goes along with it. By locking so much stuff in this game behind fleets, you're essentially giving a big finger to introverted people.

    Offer stuff at inflated prices or something if you must penalize people, not completely give them the shaft the way things are now.

    Oh please, you are around far more people at ESD, Drozana Station, or even DS9, than at any of the fleet holdings... So for introverts maybe joining a fleet would be a perfect way around all those crowds and have easy access to exchange, bank etc...


    discojer might have been referring to all kinds of social 'obligations' that come with certain Fleets. Ours, fortunately, doesn't have that. But I can imagine some ppl not liking that if they do.
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  • kf4tvikf4tvi Member Posts: 161 Arc User
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    discojer might have been referring to all kinds of social 'obligations' that come with certain Fleets. Ours, fortunately, doesn't have that. But I can imagine some ppl not liking that if they do.

    So, all this may simply be about finding the right fleet to meet the individual's needs! Is there a resource available where people looking to join a fleet can go to find fleets with membership openings (last I heard they still have the 500 cap) and descriptions about things like what is required of it's members, promotion options, etc. so people can be as selective as they want before joining a fleet?

  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 10,410 Arc User
    I don't think the model of fleets with rules, regulations and event schedule does exist on a large scale still. I'm in a two-person fleet with very slow but steady advancement basically whenever somebody feels like it.
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  • steaensteaen Member Posts: 623 Arc User
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    I can assure you, a Fleet holding is precisely as super secret, exclusive, and busy a social hub as... the Captain's Table is. :P

    I'll have you know that I visited the Captain's Table yesterday and there were TWO other players there at the same time...if that's not social, I don't know what is. :wink:
  • corelogikcorelogik Member Posts: 1,037 Arc User
    discojer wrote: »
    The thing is, there are people known as "introverts" who really don't like constantly having to deal with other people and the nonsense that goes along with it. By locking so much stuff in this game behind fleets, you're essentially giving a big finger to introverted people.

    Offer stuff at inflated prices or something if you must penalize people, not completely give them the shaft the way things are now.

    Spare me. I'm somewhat of an introvert myself, I don't like dealing with people if I don't have to. I can and will do so online much easier than in person. However, as I've stated at least twice, most fleets, once you join, are as little or as much participation as you like. So you can join a fleet, contribute to projects, buy your gear, and never have to speak to another person as long as the fleet exists.

    As for the rest, there is nothing a Fleet sells that is "required" to play or be successful at STO. You can and many people do, do without it.

    If you want access to the items a Fleet offers, I'm sorry, but you have to do what every other Fleet member has done. Join and contribute. It really is that simple. Life isn't always fair, and sometimes, neither are MMO's.
    "Go play with your DPS in the corner, I don't care how big it is." ~ Me
    "There... are... four... lights!" ~Jean Luc Picard
  • arionisaarionisa Member Posts: 1,421 Arc User
    Being an introvert myself and subject to panic attacks, I know what it's like. I have days that I will do without smoking rather than deal with going to the store and having to be around people even enough to buy a pack of smokes, even talking to someone on the phone, including my own family, is difficult. However, like most extreme introverts dealing with people online (unless it's teamspeak or PvP) is not really difficult at all.

    I have upwards of 20 toons in a number of different Fleets and there is NO "having to deal with other people and the nonsense that goes along with it." Two of the fleets I am in, one of which I am a senior officer in, I haven't talked, chatted, emailed etc with anyone there in at least six months, and that was in game email to the fleet leader to make sure he didn't accidentally promote me so high considering how little I interact with anybody. Others get a bit more interaction, such as typing an "x" in the fleet chat to join an STF and a "gg" or "that was fun" when it's over. I even occasionally say HI to people on Fleet chat, when I feel like it.

    The facts are this. Numbers of fleets exist where you can play this game forever and almost never interact with anyone beyond the initial request and invite unless you feel like it.

    Numbers of Fleets exist that gladly allow non Fleet members to come in and enjoy their holdings with no more interaction involved than asking for the invite.

    The greatest amount of "having to deal with other people and the nonsense that goes along with it." in this game occurs at ESD, Quonos, New Rom, Drozana, and DS9, all locations that have absolutely nothing to do with Fleets and all locations that all players are absolutely required to spend time in to get anywhere in this game.

    I repeat my intial point, there is absolutely no need, or reason, for the devs to make a major change to the game mechanic "to support the few who hate Fleets, especially when all Fleet stuff is already available to them if they just look for it. "
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  • arionisaarionisa Member Posts: 1,421 Arc User
    With the recent edit bug causing posts to disappear I didn't want to edit my last post to add this.

    Closing your chat window while in the location I mentioned previously means you really don't even have to deal with any real people at those location either, although I find it easier to just ignore the idiots annoying chat posts.......
    LTS and loving it.
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  • sirsitsalotsirsitsalot Member Posts: 2,338 Arc User
    See, I think that Cryptic got the whole idea of fleets wrong.

    Fleets in STO are essentially guilds by a different name. And the purpose of guilds in an MMO is simply to facilitate the grouping of like-minded players who tend to be on at roughly the same time so it is easy for them to play together. The idea is that the general gameplay is compelling enough that people would WANT to share the experience together. If that is the case, then no gameplay mechanics need to be locked behind fleet memberships.

    Hell, the entire Dyson Sphere fleet holding thing could have been a PUBLIC activity that everyone, including fleets could have participated in. They could have done something similar to what they did with New Romulus and gated episodic missions behind the Spire's progression, with new mission-giving NPC (the senior crew of the Spire) arriving. In fact, an entire series of Spire-centric episodes could have been produced where we the players are the ones doing everything. The spire could have become a central hub of player activity for that particular story arc.

    Same thing goes for the fleet Starbase. And Dilithium Mine. And Embassy.

    We're talking about a shared experience accessible to ALL in which everyone who participated could essentially say that they had a hand in building a social hub.

    But what did Cryptic do? The holdings are all locked behind fleet membership, with the end result nothing more than unlocking fleet stores. It's yet another grindfest just to get more stuff, which has been pointed out is not even needed to actually play the game. STO has been and apparently always shall be about acquiring new shinies through the most grindiest ways PWE can come up with.

    Now even under my proposal, fleet stores could still be a part of it. Contribution projects dedicated to unlocking them could be available to anyone who is a member of a fleet. So there would be fleet-specific objectives associated with progressing a PUBLIC holding. But the actual progression of the holding itself would be open to ALL. so that everyone could participate in building something without being gated by fleet membership.

    I'd like to see them at least experiment with this with the next holding they decide to produce. The workload would not be any different. In fact, having holdings be public would probably be less of a strain on database resources, because instead of having to track the progress of all those individual fleets, there would only be one set of progress data to track.
    When it comes to MMOs, I wear prescription glasses. Whether or not they are rose-tinted is beside the point.
  • kf4tvikf4tvi Member Posts: 161 Arc User
    See, I think that Cryptic got the whole idea of fleets wrong.

    I was wondering, have you actually been a member of a fleet in STO?

  • arionisaarionisa Member Posts: 1,421 Arc User
    I really love how many people come in the forums suggesting that STO needs to be more like game "x" (or complaining that it isn't), or trying to tell the Devs how they got the purpose of something they designed wrong (the purpose of which they decided on, not some random player).

    For the first part, my main feeling is that if you want a game that is more like game "x", go play game "x". This is STO, if you like it, play it, if you don't, then don't.

    As for the second, I won't presume to speak for the Devs, however, I heartily believe that the purpose of the Fleets in STO are designed to match the idea of what they decided Fleets in STO should be. They aren't making a clone of some other game, they are making STO, and frankly, if STO was a clone of some other game, I wouldn't be playing it.
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  • sirsitsalotsirsitsalot Member Posts: 2,338 Arc User
    kf4tvi wrote: »
    See, I think that Cryptic got the whole idea of fleets wrong.

    I was wondering, have you actually been a member of a fleet in STO?

    Yes. I was a member of PeregrineFalcon's fleet. We played regularly running Featured Episodes together. It was fun. After he... left... everyone but me left the fleet. I am currently its sole member and leader. But I don't play regularly enough to bother trying to grind the fleet holdings by myself.

    See I joined his fleet because we were a group that played regularly together. We weren't in a fleet for gear.

    Locking gameplay and stuff behind a fleet membership was Cryptic's way to entice players to join fleets, as if joining one for what should be easy teaming options with regular like minded players isn't motivation enough. See the core game's content has always been so slow in coming, with new missions to do only coming after MONTHS of delay. Fleet holdings and the fleet stores were an incentive to keep people playing in between, but the grind associated with it, unless you were part of a large fleet, or at least a medium fleet in which everyone was dedicated to grinding the holdings, it was painful as hell.

    There were entire threads that went pages and pages in which elitists in big fleets bashed those in smaller fleets for asking for a means of advancing at a reasonable pace, scaled to their fleet size. Not everyone wanted to be a part of a big fleet.

    Back then I had proposed the idea of smaller holdings for smaller fleets. Oh... how the big fleeters screamed at me on that. As if what I was proposing would somehow take away from their efforts. "Just join a big fleet" they said. The problem was not that Cryptic hadn't provided something to reward big fleets for enduring a massive grind. The problem was that Cryptic had ignored the needs of smaller fleets who neither needed nor wanted to inflate their numbers. So again, I maintain that they never handled the whole fleet aspect of the game correctly.
    When it comes to MMOs, I wear prescription glasses. Whether or not they are rose-tinted is beside the point.
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