It occurs to me that this episode exposes a flaw in the Prime Directive, or at least the necessity for a standing exception. And the reason is that the natural development cycle of technology creates a harmful bottleneck that damages civilizations, for no gain.
The fact is, it's a hell of a lot easier to create uncontrolled fusion and weaponize it (aka the hydrogen bomb) than it is to produce controlled fusion for power. This creates all kinds of problems for civilizations that may otherwise have good intentions but are held back by a lack of technical ability to solve the puzzle of fusion power.
I say it should become policy to covertly supply the technical capability for safe and clean fusion power to any species that already has the hydrogen bomb, presuming they are seeking it. The reason is that they already have the dangerous weaponized version of the technology and so it can't make things any worse, and it doesn't benefit their social or cultural development to be stuck with hydrocarbons and other such inferior energy sources while their scientists work to crack safe controlled fusion power. We might as well covertly help them get there.
Except that's not a flaw, it's the design purpose of it. The Prime Directive is an artifact of a society that values culture over life. It is not to benefit the development of alien civilizations, but to preserve whatever "natural" uniqueness they have that Starfleet considers itself to be above and beyond, even if it leads to their destruction. There's so many episodes that have laid this out to bare.
That the kentari's uniqueness is poisoned air and Captain Planet villains is, as far as the PD is concerned...their problem.
It occurs to me that this episode exposes a flaw in the Prime Directive, or at least the necessity for a standing exception. And the reason is that the natural development cycle of technology creates a harmful bottleneck that damages civilizations, for no gain.
The fact is, it's a hell of a lot easier to create uncontrolled fusion and weaponize it (aka the hydrogen bomb) than it is to produce controlled fusion for power. This creates all kinds of problems for civilizations that may otherwise have good intentions but are held back by a lack of technical ability to solve the puzzle of fusion power.
I say it should become policy to covertly supply the technical capability for safe and clean fusion power to any species that already has the hydrogen bomb, presuming they are seeking it. The reason is that they already have the dangerous weaponized version of the technology and so it can't make things any worse, and it doesn't benefit their social or cultural development to be stuck with hydrocarbons and other such inferior energy sources while their scientists work to crack safe controlled fusion power. We might as well covertly help them get there.
Except that's not a flaw, it's the design purpose of it. The Prime Directive is an artifact of a society that values culture over life. It is not to benefit the development of alien civilizations, but to preserve whatever "natural" uniqueness they have that Starfleet considers itself to be above and beyond, even if it leads to their destruction. There's so many episodes that have laid this out to bare.
That the kentari's uniqueness is poisoned air and Captain Planet villains is, as far as the PD is concerned...their problem.
^^^ This.
After First Contact, Vulcan could have supplied technology to boost Earth's research into warp drive, but they didn't, for I believe, two reasons. One, it would have been interfering in the technological development (and as a result cultural development) of humanity. The other, is along the line of the parable: Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, he'll feed himself for a lifetime. I (admitedly a presumption) believe that the Vulcans were of that opinion, and felt that humanity needed to make its advances on its own, through its own endeavours, rather than simply 'being given' the improvement.
Uplifting may seem like a noble and charitable act, but is it really? Taking into account that radically changing a fundamental aspect of a society, is going to massively impact those living in that society. The aim may be noble, but the implications could be massive, and maybe more than a society is ready to deal with.
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
The PD is overrated in my opinion, and the later years of TNG got really anal about it.
ANAL!!!!!
With that out of the way......I think the improvements should have been given...especially since the dire straights the earth was in, and it being 2 steps away from Mad Max.
The PD is overrated in my opinion, and the later years of TNG got really anal about it.
ANAL!!!!!
With that out of the way......I think the improvements should have been given...especially since the dire straights the earth was in, and it being 2 steps away from Mad Max.
Ahhh, but Earth (as we saw it) had gone Mad Max, and come out the other side by itself Without reaching that social level by themselves, they might not have had the collective incentive to continue to improve, but just stagnated at that Mad Max-level of what was essentially feudalism.
If the Kentari can come to the realisation on their own that they could do better, to actually see that they can be better, that should be more inspiring to their people as a whole, than simply having someone else clear up their mess after them, and thus not gaining that inspiration to strive even further
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
> @darthmeow504 said: > piatmini wrote: » > > tl;dr: This episode had a ton of potential, but blatant bias made it feel like a piece of propaganda (which, ironically, is one of the things the episode is criticizing). > > I agree that the differences from criticizing an issue (racism/xenophobia), and mocking a person (Trump) is quite large. Besides, if you are going hate a group of people because you claim they hate a different group of people... well you see how that goes. That said, I don't think the episode was bad because of the blatant real world references, but because it was so one-sided. > > > > > There's your problem, you were looking for something to be offended by. You projected Donald Trump onto the defense minister when there is nothing tying him to anyone real at all, and then got butthurt over the insult that you constructed in your own mind.
people look for something that is not there, or reasons to be upset, but really i loved it,
It occurs to me that this episode exposes a flaw in the Prime Directive, or at least the necessity for a standing exception. And the reason is that the natural development cycle of technology creates a harmful bottleneck that damages civilizations, for no gain.
The fact is, it's a hell of a lot easier to create uncontrolled fusion and weaponize it (aka the hydrogen bomb) than it is to produce controlled fusion for power. This creates all kinds of problems for civilizations that may otherwise have good intentions but are held back by a lack of technical ability to solve the puzzle of fusion power.
I say it should become policy to covertly supply the technical capability for safe and clean fusion power to any species that already has the hydrogen bomb, presuming they are seeking it. The reason is that they already have the dangerous weaponized version of the technology and so it can't make things any worse, and it doesn't benefit their social or cultural development to be stuck with hydrocarbons and other such inferior energy sources while their scientists work to crack safe controlled fusion power. We might as well covertly help them get there.
Except that's not a flaw, it's the design purpose of it. The Prime Directive is an artifact of a society that values culture over life. It is not to benefit the development of alien civilizations, but to preserve whatever "natural" uniqueness they have that Starfleet considers itself to be above and beyond, even if it leads to their destruction. There's so many episodes that have laid this out to bare.
That the kentari's uniqueness is poisoned air and Captain Planet villains is, as far as the PD is concerned...their problem.
^^^ This.
After First Contact, Vulcan could have supplied technology to boost Earth's research into warp drive, but they didn't, for I believe, two reasons. One, it would have been interfering in the technological development (and as a result cultural development) of humanity. The other, is along the line of the parable: Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, he'll feed himself for a lifetime. I (admitedly a presumption) believe that the Vulcans were of that opinion, and felt that humanity needed to make its advances on its own, through its own endeavours, rather than simply 'being given' the improvement.
Uplifting may seem like a noble and charitable act, but is it really? Taking into account that radically changing a fundamental aspect of a society, is going to massively impact those living in that society. The aim may be noble, but the implications could be massive, and maybe more than a society is ready to deal with.
I get your point, but I'm talking about a very specific action to be taken in very specific circumstances. To qualify for covert assistance (meaning we help their scientists without revealing who we are or that aliens exist), the species would have to meet two criteria:
1) They must already have weaponized fusion, aka the hydrogen bomb, meaning their gaining of fusion power generation tech won't put them at any risk of thermonuclear war they're not already under.
and
2) They must be actively seeking fusion power for peaceful purposes.
If both criteria are met, Federation agents would act in a covert fashion to aid their scientists in cracking controlled fusion for power generation. They wouldn't reveal themselves, or initiate First Contact, or interfere in any other way. They would simply assist the local scientists in a subtle way to help them along in their research.
I'm aware that the Prime Directive as currently written does not allow this, don't say "it's against the Prime Directive!" as reason to shoot it down. My proposal would be, from an in-universe perspective, that the Directive be amended to include such a policy. You can presume my character captain has already written a letter to Command to that effect, in hopes that Command might consider it.
If you were a member of Command and the measure came up for a vote, would you vote yay or nay?
There's no point doing anything in a covert fashion with the kentari, since they already know we're here. If they request help, we'll probably help them, just like the lukari. If they don't, then we'll leave them alone.
Of course, there is the rather polarized nature of the political climate to take into consideration. In all likelyhood some of them will want help and others tell us to go to hell. I'd like to think we'd help the faction that wants help even if the others don't...but as said Starfleet values culture over life so unfortunately I could totally see them refuse to treat these people as individuals with the right to make their own choices.
As for actually primitive civilizations, there would likely be a lot more important targets for social engineering than fusion power research. The big technologies are the last step of responsible uplifting, not the first.
It occurs to me that this episode exposes a flaw in the Prime Directive, or at least the necessity for a standing exception. And the reason is that the natural development cycle of technology creates a harmful bottleneck that damages civilizations, for no gain.
The fact is, it's a hell of a lot easier to create uncontrolled fusion and weaponize it (aka the hydrogen bomb) than it is to produce controlled fusion for power. This creates all kinds of problems for civilizations that may otherwise have good intentions but are held back by a lack of technical ability to solve the puzzle of fusion power.
I say it should become policy to covertly supply the technical capability for safe and clean fusion power to any species that already has the hydrogen bomb, presuming they are seeking it. The reason is that they already have the dangerous weaponized version of the technology and so it can't make things any worse, and it doesn't benefit their social or cultural development to be stuck with hydrocarbons and other such inferior energy sources while their scientists work to crack safe controlled fusion power. We might as well covertly help them get there.
Except that's not a flaw, it's the design purpose of it. The Prime Directive is an artifact of a society that values culture over life. It is not to benefit the development of alien civilizations, but to preserve whatever "natural" uniqueness they have that Starfleet considers itself to be above and beyond, even if it leads to their destruction. There's so many episodes that have laid this out to bare.
That the kentari's uniqueness is poisoned air and Captain Planet villains is, as far as the PD is concerned...their problem.
^^^ This.
After First Contact, Vulcan could have supplied technology to boost Earth's research into warp drive, but they didn't, for I believe, two reasons. One, it would have been interfering in the technological development (and as a result cultural development) of humanity. The other, is along the line of the parable: Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, he'll feed himself for a lifetime. I (admitedly a presumption) believe that the Vulcans were of that opinion, and felt that humanity needed to make its advances on its own, through its own endeavours, rather than simply 'being given' the improvement.
Uplifting may seem like a noble and charitable act, but is it really? Taking into account that radically changing a fundamental aspect of a society, is going to massively impact those living in that society. The aim may be noble, but the implications could be massive, and maybe more than a society is ready to deal with.
I get your point, but I'm talking about a very specific action to be taken in very specific circumstances. To qualify for covert assistance (meaning we help their scientists without revealing who we are or that aliens exist), the species would have to meet two criteria:
1) They must already have weaponized fusion, aka the hydrogen bomb, meaning their gaining of fusion power generation tech won't put them at any risk of thermonuclear war they're not already under.
and
2) They must be actively seeking fusion power for peaceful purposes.
If both criteria are met, Federation agents would act in a covert fashion to aid their scientists in cracking controlled fusion for power generation. They wouldn't reveal themselves, or initiate First Contact, or interfere in any other way. They would simply assist the local scientists in a subtle way to help them along in their research.
I'm aware that the Prime Directive as currently written does not allow this, don't say "it's against the Prime Directive!" as reason to shoot it down. My proposal would be, from an in-universe perspective, that the Directive be amended to include such a policy. You can presume my character captain has already written a letter to Command to that effect, in hopes that Command might consider it.
If you were a member of Command and the measure came up for a vote, would you vote yay or nay?
Nay
-Creating an exception to a rule, is only inviting other 'exceptions' to be enacted or created.
-My thoughts are as they were with my original post. The cultural changes which developing fusion power would potentially bring about, must have internal impetus, rather than being created from an external source.
Natural cultural development and evolution, can only come within, no matter how much one might want to change the criteria just to allow ones own stance
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
If you were a member of Command and the measure came up for a vote, would you vote yay or nay?
Nay
-Creating an exception to a rule, is only inviting other 'exceptions' to be enacted or created.
-My thoughts are as they were with my original post. The cultural changes which developing fusion power would potentially bring about, must have internal impetus, rather than being created from an external source.
Natural cultural development and evolution, can only come within, no matter how much one might want to change the criteria just to allow ones own stance
I counter with the wise words of Captain Jean-Luc Picard, who said "...the question of justice has concerned me greatly of late. And I say ...there can be no justice so long as laws are absolute. Even life itself is an exercise in exceptions.
Words written by Melinda Snodgrass, I believe? I refuse to be cowed by, or panda to, the mouthpiece of someone so full of 'liberal vigour', that the mere mention of her president, actually causes an emotional melt-down. She's entitled to her opinions, but if I refused to be beaten about the head with them on a personal basis, I absolutely refuse to be beaten about the head with them third-hand
One cannot merely cite fear of a slippery slope to block any and all amendment to the law, each proposal must be considered on its own merits to determine if it is in keeping with the spirit of the law and the purpose to which it was enacted. One must trust the process by which law and policy is legislated to prevent spaghetti law, not taking what is now and freezing it in carbonite for all time.
One can do anything one wants, and is obliged to trust nothing. Laws are mutable and man-made. They can be changed for better or for worse.
You asked me for a yay or nay vote, which I provided, as well as my reasons for my choice. Please don't presume to lecture me about them because you disagree with my opinion or choice of vote
If you want to pretend that your character has written a stern letter to Admiral Quinn suggesting this change in policy, by all means, feel free, but please don't expect others to feel beholden to it
As to to your concern that cultural development and evolution must come from an internal impetus, tat is why the second criterion exists. To qualify for covert assistance, they must already be seeking the technology and have the willingness to implement it and thus their culture has already reached the necessary level of development. At that point it is not their culture that is lacking, it is their ability to crack a difficult technological puzzle. They want it, they're ready for it, they're seeking it, but it's difficult. They will get there, it's only a matter of time. The only thing this assistance would change is to accelerate the timetable slightly. By doing so, much unnecessary suffering and loss of life can be prevented.
And as I said, you're changing the goalposts to suit your argument. That's not giving a better argument, it's just fixing the outcome so as to try not to lose.
When faced with an 'option' like that, I will always vote counter to it on principle, because the process itself is being manipulated
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
If you were a member of Command and the measure came up for a vote, would you vote yay or nay?
Nay
-Creating an exception to a rule, is only inviting other 'exceptions' to be enacted or created.
-My thoughts are as they were with my original post. The cultural changes which developing fusion power would potentially bring about, must have internal impetus, rather than being created from an external source.
Natural cultural development and evolution, can only come within, no matter how much one might want to change the criteria just to allow ones own stance
I counter with the wise words of Captain Jean-Luc Picard, who said "...the question of justice has concerned me greatly of late. And I say ...there can be no justice so long as laws are absolute. Even life itself is an exercise in exceptions.
Words written by Melinda Snodgrass, I believe? I refuse to be cowed by, or panda to, the mouthpiece of someone so full of 'liberal vigour', that the mere mention of her president, actually causes an emotional melt-down. She's entitled to her opinions, but if I refused to be beaten about the head with them on a personal basis, I absolutely refuse to be beaten about the head with them third-hand
One cannot merely cite fear of a slippery slope to block any and all amendment to the law, each proposal must be considered on its own merits to determine if it is in keeping with the spirit of the law and the purpose to which it was enacted. One must trust the process by which law and policy is legislated to prevent spaghetti law, not taking what is now and freezing it in carbonite for all time.
One can do anything one wants, and is obliged to trust nothing. Laws are mutable and man-made. They can be changed for better or for worse.
You asked me for a yay or nay vote, which I provided, as well as my reasons for my choice. Please don't presume to lecture me about them because you disagree with my opinion or choice of vote
If you want to pretend that your character has written a stern letter to Admiral Quinn suggesting this change in policy, by all means, feel free, but please don't expect others to feel beholden to it
As to to your concern that cultural development and evolution must come from an internal impetus, tat is why the second criterion exists. To qualify for covert assistance, they must already be seeking the technology and have the willingness to implement it and thus their culture has already reached the necessary level of development. At that point it is not their culture that is lacking, it is their ability to crack a difficult technological puzzle. They want it, they're ready for it, they're seeking it, but it's difficult. They will get there, it's only a matter of time. The only thing this assistance would change is to accelerate the timetable slightly. By doing so, much unnecessary suffering and loss of life can be prevented.
And as I said, you're changing the goalposts to suit your argument. That's not giving a better argument, it's just fixing the outcome so as to try not to lose.
When faced with an 'option' like that, I will always vote counter to it on principle, because the process itself is being manipulated
I don't see how I'm moving the goalposts when everything I said is in the original proposal --I'm simply explaining it in more detail. Nothing has changed.
And you are of course beholden to nothing. The whole point is to have an enjoyable debate where ideas are explored and tested. I can't change canon and even if a hundred other forumites chimed in with "aye" votes it would still hold exactly zero weight with the developers of the game much less the writers of screen Trek at CBS and Paramount. This is just for fun.
You're not changing the goalposts of the conditions you gave, but you're changing the goalposts for the criteria for the Prime Directive, to enable your proposition
My opinion is still, like that of the Vulcans in Enterprise, that All Discoveries which impact the future of a society, Must come From that society
Also, with regards Picard, remember his stance on the Prime Directive when it came to the Klingon Civil war; He was more than prepared to uphold the absolute letter of the law
I think patrickngo said it better than I can:
but no system concieved by people could ever be perfect enough to prevent abuses or subversions, especially well intentioned subversions from within...
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Even the PD as presented in TOS valued culture over individuals. Also, it was probably written by Vulcans.
It wasn't until TNG that a captain used it as a reason to not do anything. And in at least one case it seemed to be more of an excuse than a legitimate reason. The case of the Ornarans and Brekkians, for example, he felt that if he told the Ornarans the truth it'd cause a war. (While the Brekkians felt it was an internal matter and thus protected, you could also argue that since the Ornarans and Brekkians are separate civilizations, it's a matter of the Brekkians interfering with the natural development of the Ornarns) So he chose a third option. Which was to not give the Ornarans the spare parts they wanted. Granted, this was expected to lead to the collapse of both societies. But in the case of the Ornarans it'd probably only be a matter of months for the worst of it to pass.
Even the PD as presented in TOS valued culture over individuals. Also, it was probably written by Vulcans.
It wasn't until TNG that a captain used it as a reason to not do anything. And in at least one case it seemed to be more of an excuse than a legitimate reason. The case of the Ornarans and Brekkians, for example, he felt that if he told the Ornarans the truth it'd cause a war. (While the Brekkians felt it was an internal matter and thus protected, you could also argue that since the Ornarans and Brekkians are separate civilizations, it's a matter of the Brekkians interfering with the natural development of the Ornarns) So he chose a third option. Which was to not give the Ornarans the spare parts they wanted. Granted, this was expected to lead to the collapse of both societies. But in the case of the Ornarans it'd probably only be a matter of months for the worst of it to pass.
I don't know, the vulcans seemed pretty reasonable about the matter in Enterprise. Their interactions with humans may not have been entirely altruistic, but they never took a "do nothing and dismiss any disaster as natural development" -position either.
On the other hand, Phlox's take on the subject (before an actual directive even existed) made me sick.
I also found it silly of the "if you don't have warp drive, you suck!" policy of the TNG PD.
TOS had SF meeting worlds that did not even have space travel.
Worst PD episode was "first contact", the episode, not the film. Where dealing with a planet's government, rather than the people, is a BIG mistake, since history shows government does not have the interests of the people, but their own special interest, at heart.
Even the PD as presented in TOS valued culture over individuals. Also, it was probably written by Vulcans.
It wasn't until TNG that a captain used it as a reason to not do anything. And in at least one case it seemed to be more of an excuse than a legitimate reason. The case of the Ornarans and Brekkians, for example, he felt that if he told the Ornarans the truth it'd cause a war. (While the Brekkians felt it was an internal matter and thus protected, you could also argue that since the Ornarans and Brekkians are separate civilizations, it's a matter of the Brekkians interfering with the natural development of the Ornarns) So he chose a third option. Which was to not give the Ornarans the spare parts they wanted. Granted, this was expected to lead to the collapse of both societies. But in the case of the Ornarans it'd probably only be a matter of months for the worst of it to pass.
I don't know, the vulcans seemed pretty reasonable about the matter in Enterprise. Their interactions with humans may not have been entirely altruistic, but they never took a "do nothing and dismiss any disaster as natural development" -position either.
On the other hand, Phlox's take on the subject (before an actual directive even existed) made me sick.
In the movie First Contact, it was mentioned that the Vulcans had known of the existence of Humans for a long time, but thought Humans were "too primitive" to be worth talking to.
I also found it silly of the "if you don't have warp drive, you suck!" policy of the TNG PD.
TOS had SF meeting worlds that did not even have space travel.
Well, there are multiple reasons, it's not just warp drive. Although, yeah, we don't know exactly why Kirk went to Eminiar. It might be that they did have space travel capability that they chose not to use for some reason? Angel One was specified as the Feds going there because the planet had already been interfered with. Granted that was seemingly accidental since the Odin crash landed on the planet before mating with the locals.
Worst PD episode was "first contact", the episode, not the film. Where dealing with a planet's government, rather than the people, is a BIG mistake, since history shows government does not have the interests of the people, but their own special interest, at heart.
That got brought up in a big way in the episodes about the Angosians, and the Kes/Prytt.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Even the PD as presented in TOS valued culture over individuals. Also, it was probably written by Vulcans.
It wasn't until TNG that a captain used it as a reason to not do anything. And in at least one case it seemed to be more of an excuse than a legitimate reason. The case of the Ornarans and Brekkians, for example, he felt that if he told the Ornarans the truth it'd cause a war. (While the Brekkians felt it was an internal matter and thus protected, you could also argue that since the Ornarans and Brekkians are separate civilizations, it's a matter of the Brekkians interfering with the natural development of the Ornarns) So he chose a third option. Which was to not give the Ornarans the spare parts they wanted. Granted, this was expected to lead to the collapse of both societies. But in the case of the Ornarans it'd probably only be a matter of months for the worst of it to pass.
I don't know, the vulcans seemed pretty reasonable about the matter in Enterprise. Their interactions with humans may not have been entirely altruistic, but they never took a "do nothing and dismiss any disaster as natural development" -position either.
On the other hand, Phlox's take on the subject (before an actual directive even existed) made me sick.
In the movie First Contact, it was mentioned that the Vulcans had known of the existence of Humans for a long time, but thought Humans were "too primitive" to be worth talking to.
But there's a big difference thinking your neighbors are too dumb to be worth talking to vs seeing their house on fire and deciding not to call for help because burning to death is part of their "natural development."
Well, they kinda did. Aside from a few accidental encounters, they didn't do anything at all. I personally feel that the PD makes the most sense when viewed from a political standpoint. It's more about acting Noble than doing anything.
Well, they kinda did. Aside from a few accidental encounters, they didn't do anything at all. I personally feel that the PD makes the most sense when viewed from a political standpoint. It's more about acting Noble than doing anything.
Possibly, yes. At least from the legal side of things. It has government CYA written all over it. But then it's often defended by characters who are definitely not politicians. And not in a grudging, but-it's-the-law, necessary evil kind of way, but as an ideology they actually believe in.
Characters in a position to stop some massive disaster or help in the aftermath, actually arguing the victims deserve to suffer and die just because they were born on the wrong planet.
the only one like that I can think of is Picard. His case though... was a lot more passive that you make it sound. Truthfully, most captains seem to support it in spirit only.
Even the PD as presented in TOS valued culture over individuals. Also, it was probably written by Vulcans.
It wasn't until TNG that a captain used it as a reason to not do anything. And in at least one case it seemed to be more of an excuse than a legitimate reason. The case of the Ornarans and Brekkians, for example, he felt that if he told the Ornarans the truth it'd cause a war. (While the Brekkians felt it was an internal matter and thus protected, you could also argue that since the Ornarans and Brekkians are separate civilizations, it's a matter of the Brekkians interfering with the natural development of the Ornarns) So he chose a third option. Which was to not give the Ornarans the spare parts they wanted. Granted, this was expected to lead to the collapse of both societies. But in the case of the Ornarans it'd probably only be a matter of months for the worst of it to pass.
I don't know, the vulcans seemed pretty reasonable about the matter in Enterprise. Their interactions with humans may not have been entirely altruistic, but they never took a "do nothing and dismiss any disaster as natural development" -position either.
On the other hand, Phlox's take on the subject (before an actual directive even existed) made me sick.
In the movie First Contact, it was mentioned that the Vulcans had known of the existence of Humans for a long time, but thought Humans were "too primitive" to be worth talking to.
But there's a big difference thinking your neighbors are too dumb to be worth talking to vs seeing their house on fire and deciding not to call for help because burning to death is part of their "natural development."
Yep, Worf's adopted brother got in hot water for SAVING a non warp planet from disaster.
Was he supposed to let them DIE horribly, and 'maintain' their natural development? Sounds pretty elitist to me.
I also found it silly of the "if you don't have warp drive, you suck!" policy of the TNG PD.
TOS had SF meeting worlds that did not even have space travel.
Worst PD episode was "first contact", the episode, not the film. Where dealing with a planet's government, rather than the people, is a BIG mistake, since history shows government does not have the interests of the people, but their own special interest, at heart.
It makes perfect sense in TOS the emphasis was on exploration and making contact with new civilisations
by TNG star fleet and the federation had went from exploration and FC to consolidation and politcal agendas.
So in TOS where a none warp capable society wouldve been contacted ,by TNG they had amended the PD to include non warp capables because they were more concerned about consolidating and protecting what they had , not adding more think of it as a starfleet and federation form of vetting.
Even the PD as presented in TOS valued culture over individuals. Also, it was probably written by Vulcans.
It wasn't until TNG that a captain used it as a reason to not do anything. And in at least one case it seemed to be more of an excuse than a legitimate reason. The case of the Ornarans and Brekkians, for example, he felt that if he told the Ornarans the truth it'd cause a war. (While the Brekkians felt it was an internal matter and thus protected, you could also argue that since the Ornarans and Brekkians are separate civilizations, it's a matter of the Brekkians interfering with the natural development of the Ornarns) So he chose a third option. Which was to not give the Ornarans the spare parts they wanted. Granted, this was expected to lead to the collapse of both societies. But in the case of the Ornarans it'd probably only be a matter of months for the worst of it to pass.
I don't know, the vulcans seemed pretty reasonable about the matter in Enterprise. Their interactions with humans may not have been entirely altruistic, but they never took a "do nothing and dismiss any disaster as natural development" -position either.
On the other hand, Phlox's take on the subject (before an actual directive even existed) made me sick.
In the movie First Contact, it was mentioned that the Vulcans had known of the existence of Humans for a long time, but thought Humans were "too primitive" to be worth talking to.
But there's a big difference thinking your neighbors are too dumb to be worth talking to vs seeing their house on fire and deciding not to call for help because burning to death is part of their "natural development."
Yep, Worf's adopted brother got in hot water for SAVING a non warp planet from disaster.
Was he supposed to let them DIE horribly, and 'maintain' their natural development? Sounds pretty elitist to me.
Well, in that case, the problem was that the scale of disaster was too great for the Feds to actually save them. Even in the end only a few got saved.
Even the PD as presented in TOS valued culture over individuals. Also, it was probably written by Vulcans.
It wasn't until TNG that a captain used it as a reason to not do anything. And in at least one case it seemed to be more of an excuse than a legitimate reason. The case of the Ornarans and Brekkians, for example, he felt that if he told the Ornarans the truth it'd cause a war. (While the Brekkians felt it was an internal matter and thus protected, you could also argue that since the Ornarans and Brekkians are separate civilizations, it's a matter of the Brekkians interfering with the natural development of the Ornarns) So he chose a third option. Which was to not give the Ornarans the spare parts they wanted. Granted, this was expected to lead to the collapse of both societies. But in the case of the Ornarans it'd probably only be a matter of months for the worst of it to pass.
I don't know, the vulcans seemed pretty reasonable about the matter in Enterprise. Their interactions with humans may not have been entirely altruistic, but they never took a "do nothing and dismiss any disaster as natural development" -position either.
On the other hand, Phlox's take on the subject (before an actual directive even existed) made me sick.
In the movie First Contact, it was mentioned that the Vulcans had known of the existence of Humans for a long time, but thought Humans were "too primitive" to be worth talking to.
But there's a big difference thinking your neighbors are too dumb to be worth talking to vs seeing their house on fire and deciding not to call for help because burning to death is part of their "natural development."
Yep, Worf's adopted brother got in hot water for SAVING a non warp planet from disaster.
Was he supposed to let them DIE horribly, and 'maintain' their natural development? Sounds pretty elitist to me.
Well, in that case, the problem was that the scale of disaster was too great for the Feds to actually save them. Even in the end only a few got saved.
No, the scale of the disaster was too great for one dude with no support, on a ship with crew committed to watching the disaster and doing nothing, to save everyone on the sly.
The Federation didn't even try to do anything to stop it or save anyone at all. Even just the Enterprise would've been capable of transporting thousands of people to safety, if they had wanted to do so.
Well, part of why Picard was there was that the Feds didn't understand the problem. His primary goal was to study the disaster to attempt to understand it. So preventing the disaster was out of the question. Which leaves an evacuation as the only viable option.
Comments
That the kentari's uniqueness is poisoned air and Captain Planet villains is, as far as the PD is concerned...their problem.
After First Contact, Vulcan could have supplied technology to boost Earth's research into warp drive, but they didn't, for I believe, two reasons. One, it would have been interfering in the technological development (and as a result cultural development) of humanity. The other, is along the line of the parable: Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, he'll feed himself for a lifetime. I (admitedly a presumption) believe that the Vulcans were of that opinion, and felt that humanity needed to make its advances on its own, through its own endeavours, rather than simply 'being given' the improvement.
Uplifting may seem like a noble and charitable act, but is it really? Taking into account that radically changing a fundamental aspect of a society, is going to massively impact those living in that society. The aim may be noble, but the implications could be massive, and maybe more than a society is ready to deal with.
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
ANAL!!!!!
With that out of the way......I think the improvements should have been given...especially since the dire straights the earth was in, and it being 2 steps away from Mad Max.
Ahhh, but Earth (as we saw it) had gone Mad Max, and come out the other side by itself
If the Kentari can come to the realisation on their own that they could do better, to actually see that they can be better, that should be more inspiring to their people as a whole, than simply having someone else clear up their mess after them, and thus not gaining that inspiration to strive even further
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
> piatmini wrote: »
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> tl;dr: This episode had a ton of potential, but blatant bias made it feel like a piece of propaganda (which, ironically, is one of the things the episode is criticizing).
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> I agree that the differences from criticizing an issue (racism/xenophobia), and mocking a person (Trump) is quite large. Besides, if you are going hate a group of people because you claim they hate a different group of people... well you see how that goes. That said, I don't think the episode was bad because of the blatant real world references, but because it was so one-sided.
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> There's your problem, you were looking for something to be offended by. You projected Donald Trump onto the defense minister when there is nothing tying him to anyone real at all, and then got butthurt over the insult that you constructed in your own mind.
people look for something that is not there, or reasons to be upset, but really i loved it,
Of course, there is the rather polarized nature of the political climate to take into consideration. In all likelyhood some of them will want help and others tell us to go to hell. I'd like to think we'd help the faction that wants help even if the others don't...but as said Starfleet values culture over life so unfortunately I could totally see them refuse to treat these people as individuals with the right to make their own choices.
As for actually primitive civilizations, there would likely be a lot more important targets for social engineering than fusion power research. The big technologies are the last step of responsible uplifting, not the first.
Nay
-Creating an exception to a rule, is only inviting other 'exceptions' to be enacted or created.
-My thoughts are as they were with my original post. The cultural changes which developing fusion power would potentially bring about, must have internal impetus, rather than being created from an external source.
Natural cultural development and evolution, can only come within, no matter how much one might want to change the criteria just to allow ones own stance
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
One can do anything one wants, and is obliged to trust nothing. Laws are mutable and man-made. They can be changed for better or for worse.
You asked me for a yay or nay vote, which I provided, as well as my reasons for my choice. Please don't presume to lecture me about them because you disagree with my opinion or choice of vote
If you want to pretend that your character has written a stern letter to Admiral Quinn suggesting this change in policy, by all means, feel free, but please don't expect others to feel beholden to it
And as I said, you're changing the goalposts to suit your argument. That's not giving a better argument, it's just fixing the outcome so as to try not to lose.
When faced with an 'option' like that, I will always vote counter to it on principle, because the process itself is being manipulated
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
My opinion is still, like that of the Vulcans in Enterprise, that All Discoveries which impact the future of a society, Must come From that society
Also, with regards Picard, remember his stance on the Prime Directive when it came to the Klingon Civil war; He was more than prepared to uphold the absolute letter of the law
I think patrickngo said it better than I can:
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
It wasn't until TNG that a captain used it as a reason to not do anything. And in at least one case it seemed to be more of an excuse than a legitimate reason. The case of the Ornarans and Brekkians, for example, he felt that if he told the Ornarans the truth it'd cause a war. (While the Brekkians felt it was an internal matter and thus protected, you could also argue that since the Ornarans and Brekkians are separate civilizations, it's a matter of the Brekkians interfering with the natural development of the Ornarns) So he chose a third option. Which was to not give the Ornarans the spare parts they wanted. Granted, this was expected to lead to the collapse of both societies. But in the case of the Ornarans it'd probably only be a matter of months for the worst of it to pass.
My character Tsin'xing
On the other hand, Phlox's take on the subject (before an actual directive even existed) made me sick.
TOS had SF meeting worlds that did not even have space travel.
Worst PD episode was "first contact", the episode, not the film. Where dealing with a planet's government, rather than the people, is a BIG mistake, since history shows government does not have the interests of the people, but their own special interest, at heart.
My character Tsin'xing
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
My character Tsin'xing
Characters in a position to stop some massive disaster or help in the aftermath, actually arguing the victims deserve to suffer and die just because they were born on the wrong planet.
My character Tsin'xing
Yep, Worf's adopted brother got in hot water for SAVING a non warp planet from disaster.
Was he supposed to let them DIE horribly, and 'maintain' their natural development? Sounds pretty elitist to me.
It makes perfect sense in TOS the emphasis was on exploration and making contact with new civilisations
by TNG star fleet and the federation had went from exploration and FC to consolidation and politcal agendas.
So in TOS where a none warp capable society wouldve been contacted ,by TNG they had amended the PD to include non warp capables because they were more concerned about consolidating and protecting what they had , not adding more think of it as a starfleet and federation form of vetting.
My character Tsin'xing
The Federation didn't even try to do anything to stop it or save anyone at all. Even just the Enterprise would've been capable of transporting thousands of people to safety, if they had wanted to do so.
My character Tsin'xing