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What did you think: Mirrors and Smoke

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  • edited May 2017
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  • xyquarzexyquarze Member Posts: 2,120 Arc User
    The worst example of this was certainly some (not official but widespread by nutjobs) "propaganda" during the Iraq war after 9/11, how everybody in the region would be happy if only they had McDonalds and Starbucks. Dang that was awful.

    However, from a German perspective, being culturally closer to the US than Japan arguably, not all changes to our country after WWII were bad. Many were very good actually. Sometimes it is a shame though, that many (absolute numbers, not percentage wise) US Americans still consider this a reason of their moral superiority, I had quite a few not very nice encounters in game to that effect.
    My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
  • drakethewhitedrakethewhite Member Posts: 1,240 Arc User
    However, I think the Federation--as portrayed in Gene Roddenberry's Star Trek--was a great deal like the US used to be.

    I agree with this and had hoped it came through in my post. I'd only modify it by saying that it was perhaps more like the show makers wanted the US to be. No massive changes to sure, but rather an version improved over the years between now and the start of the show- things like the end of racism, the winner of earth's historical conflicts, and daring explorers of space.

    Shows after TOS continue this, except the idealized versions each added more significant changes. But nearly in all cases they represented what the show runners hoped for (with the possible exception of DS9).
    I like the new version (since the TMP) of the Klingons. The old TV series version was just too cliche (much like the villains in this new STO episode).

    Having playing Mirrors and Smoke for the third time last night, I can say that it reminds me of the old Star Trek. The villains are thinly veiled card-board cut outs of real world groups (conservatives in this case, though I would argue that they should have went with corporatists, since "conservatism" isn't really a political philosophy).

    There is a very significant different between the two that I must note. TOS thinly veiled villains were drawn from nations that pointed weapons of mass destruction at use, who ran over and conquered (and kept conquered) other nations, and who supplied foes we fought on the field of battle.

    Mirrors and Smoke uses other Americans as their thinly veiled villains.

    I'd argue that the first is an acceptable treatment of ones opponents at the height of the Cold War. I'd argue the second represents nothing less the destruction of the American experiment of representative government and civil culture.
  • drakethewhitedrakethewhite Member Posts: 1,240 Arc User
    Look at your example of Japan, their culture was irrevocably transformed by the United States defeating them and then rebuilding them in the image of the US. The same can be said of Germany, though to a lesser extent.

    It was too late by then, the Japanese culture had already been irrevocably transformed by the forced end of their isolation and the rapid forced Westernization that took place during the Meiji Restoration. They had already been irrevocably transformed to a British Empire emulating culture, which is what got them conquering in China and Korea and such which made them vulnerable to the US oil embargo designed to slow their roll which is what spurred them to attack the US to end our interference in the SE Asian sphere. That of course led to their war with the US in WWII which led to their defeat, suffering atomic bombing, and another transformation. Yes, one can argue that at least some of the changes enforced on Japan weren't healthy or in keeping with Japanese culture pre-Meiji. and of course the horrible death and destruction visited on the civilian population of the Japanese home islands are not to be envied by anyone. But one could also argue they're more free to be Japanese now after their rebuilding than they were before the war, and regardless we didn't start that fire.

    I rather agree with all this although I'm not all that familiar with the Meiji Restoration enough to seriously comment.

    I will add as a side note, that the conduct of the war and the post war occupation of German and Japan were completely different than the course the US took in all the conflicts that followed it. The modern US is incapable of acting in the same way and thus is incapable of achieving the same results.

    To continue with the Star Trek comparison, like the US- the Federation is incapable of 'putting down' the Klingon Empire just as the US became incapable of 'putting down' its foes like it did Imperial Japan. Thus it's doomed to a constant cycle of Alliance-Cold War-Hot War with the Klingons and Romulans.

    The cause is different of course. The real world is driven by real world matters while the fictional world is driven by whoever is writing it. But since those writers refused to ever have the villains truly defeated- future writers cannot resist bringing them back.
  • drakethewhitedrakethewhite Member Posts: 1,240 Arc User
    xyquarze wrote: »
    However, from a German perspective, being culturally closer to the US than Japan arguably, not all changes to our country after WWII were bad. Many were very good actually. Sometimes it is a shame though, that many (absolute numbers, not percentage wise) US Americans still consider this a reason of their moral superiority, I had quite a few not very nice encounters in game to that effect.

    Modern America have no right to say anything on the subject of moral superiority, simply put the generation that did these acts is nearly gone now.
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  • drakethewhitedrakethewhite Member Posts: 1,240 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    However, I think the Federation--as portrayed in Gene Roddenberry's Star Trek--was a great deal like the US used to be.

    I agree with this and had hoped it came through in my post. I'd only modify it by saying that it was perhaps more like the show makers wanted the US to be. No massive changes to sure, but rather an version improved over the years between now and the start of the show- things like the end of racism, the winner of earth's historical conflicts, and daring explorers of space.

    Shows after TOS continue this, except the idealized versions each added more significant changes. But nearly in all cases they represented what the show runners hoped for (with the possible exception of DS9).
    I like the new version (since the TMP) of the Klingons. The old TV series version was just too cliche (much like the villains in this new STO episode).

    Having playing Mirrors and Smoke for the third time last night, I can say that it reminds me of the old Star Trek. The villains are thinly veiled card-board cut outs of real world groups (conservatives in this case, though I would argue that they should have went with corporatists, since "conservatism" isn't really a political philosophy).

    There is a very significant different between the two that I must note. TOS thinly veiled villains were drawn from nations that pointed weapons of mass destruction at use, who ran over and conquered (and kept conquered) other nations, and who supplied foes we fought on the field of battle.

    Mirrors and Smoke uses other Americans as their thinly veiled villains.

    I'd argue that the first is an acceptable treatment of ones opponents at the height of the Cold War. I'd argue the second represents nothing less the destruction of the American experiment of representative government and civil culture.

    I think you're taking that conclusion a little far, and here's why:

    because that's not what's causing it.

    What is causing the result you're describing is the curious entropy of political systems.

    You seem think that corruption start with government. I don't, I think it starts with culture for it is culture that determines the nature of government. In short, we get what we exactly what we deserve.
  • smokebaileysmokebailey Member Posts: 4,668 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    However, I think the Federation--as portrayed in Gene Roddenberry's Star Trek--was a great deal like the US used to be.

    I agree with this and had hoped it came through in my post. I'd only modify it by saying that it was perhaps more like the show makers wanted the US to be. No massive changes to sure, but rather an version improved over the years between now and the start of the show- things like the end of racism, the winner of earth's historical conflicts, and daring explorers of space.

    Shows after TOS continue this, except the idealized versions each added more significant changes. But nearly in all cases they represented what the show runners hoped for (with the possible exception of DS9).
    I like the new version (since the TMP) of the Klingons. The old TV series version was just too cliche (much like the villains in this new STO episode).

    Having playing Mirrors and Smoke for the third time last night, I can say that it reminds me of the old Star Trek. The villains are thinly veiled card-board cut outs of real world groups (conservatives in this case, though I would argue that they should have went with corporatists, since "conservatism" isn't really a political philosophy).

    There is a very significant different between the two that I must note. TOS thinly veiled villains were drawn from nations that pointed weapons of mass destruction at use, who ran over and conquered (and kept conquered) other nations, and who supplied foes we fought on the field of battle.

    Mirrors and Smoke uses other Americans as their thinly veiled villains.

    I'd argue that the first is an acceptable treatment of ones opponents at the height of the Cold War. I'd argue the second represents nothing less the destruction of the American experiment of representative government and civil culture.

    I think you're taking that conclusion a little far, and here's why:

    because that's not what's causing it.

    What is causing the result you're describing is the curious entropy of political systems. It's exceedingly rare that one can concentrate power and the result is more ethical, or even as ethical, as the worst of a previous generation. look to the example of Rome, which began as a small agrarian republic, but by it's second or third century independent of the Etruscans, had become a corrupted state ruled by a hereditary class (Patricians, in this case).. Eventually leading to a gradual, and then accellerating erosion of ethical, moral and legal standards until violence was acceptable practice in political debate among peeers (the Gracci situation), eventually leading to an acceptance of violence as a foundation of power, leading to dictatorship as the only means to restore order (Sulla, Ceasar), and eventually to an autocratic state ruled as much by the bureaucrats as by the military-with an apathetic populace kept quiet with a combination of state supplied bread and entertainment (Bread and Circuses) while their government made it's bills by conquering and gutting until it ran out of communication range..

    when the Vandals and the Goths sacked rome, it was after the Roman Army (made up mostly of foreigners) sacked it eight times. The barbarians were welcomed as Liberators.

    America's going in that direction now, only now, thanks to the blessings of mass-media, we can get there faster.

    Mass media, mainstream media, I call it, is nothing but a public relations service for the government, either cramming lies and half truths the uninformed/ignorant masses, or showing rubbish that does not mean a damn thing.....I don't care about the news talking of Trump having an extra scoop of ice cream (this was an actual topic on mainstream news the other day ~eye roll~) or whatever Kim Kardassian is doing again, or the exploits of pro athletes and so on....while ignoring, if not ridiculing, topics of actual importance.

    Personally, I won't be weeping when that day the western empire falls arrives. All empires in the past have been corrupt and fell.
    Rome: Corrupt, FELL.
    British Empire: Corrupt, FELL.
    American Empire: Corrupt, since 'officially' since the end of the second world war. only a matter of time, now.

    I only wonder who the modern day equivalent of Honorious will be, and who will be the modern day equivalent of the Visigoths coming over the seventh hill. And I wonder who the 'barbarians' will be this time around. Regardless, I won't be mourning the end of the empire.....one does not mourn removing a tumor from a leg or something.
    dvZq2Aj.jpg
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,009 Arc User
    Mass media, mainstream media, I call it, is nothing but a public relations service for the government, either cramming lies and half truths the uninformed/ignorant masses, or showing rubbish that does not mean a damn thing.....I don't care about the news talking of Trump having an extra scoop of ice cream (this was an actual topic on mainstream news the other day ~eye roll~) or whatever Kim Kardassian is doing again, or the exploits of pro athletes and so on....while ignoring, if not ridiculing, topics of actual importance.

    Personally, I won't be weeping when that day the western empire falls arrives. All empires in the past have been corrupt and fell.
    Rome: Corrupt, FELL.
    British Empire: Corrupt, FELL.
    American Empire: Corrupt, since 'officially' since the end of the second world war. only a matter of time, now.

    I only wonder who the modern day equivalent of Honorious will be, and who will be the modern day equivalent of the Visigoths coming over the seventh hill. And I wonder who the 'barbarians' will be this time around. Regardless, I won't be mourning the end of the empire.....one does not mourn removing a tumor from a leg or something.

    Ugh, tone down the pathos a bit, will you? This mindset is what got Europe and the US in trouble in the first place. It's important to stand up and support the democratic movements of your region instead of sitting in a gloomy room and ranting about the end of civilization.​​
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  • smokebaileysmokebailey Member Posts: 4,668 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    However, I think the Federation--as portrayed in Gene Roddenberry's Star Trek--was a great deal like the US used to be.

    I agree with this and had hoped it came through in my post. I'd only modify it by saying that it was perhaps more like the show makers wanted the US to be. No massive changes to sure, but rather an version improved over the years between now and the start of the show- things like the end of racism, the winner of earth's historical conflicts, and daring explorers of space.

    Shows after TOS continue this, except the idealized versions each added more significant changes. But nearly in all cases they represented what the show runners hoped for (with the possible exception of DS9).
    I like the new version (since the TMP) of the Klingons. The old TV series version was just too cliche (much like the villains in this new STO episode).

    Having playing Mirrors and Smoke for the third time last night, I can say that it reminds me of the old Star Trek. The villains are thinly veiled card-board cut outs of real world groups (conservatives in this case, though I would argue that they should have went with corporatists, since "conservatism" isn't really a political philosophy).

    There is a very significant different between the two that I must note. TOS thinly veiled villains were drawn from nations that pointed weapons of mass destruction at use, who ran over and conquered (and kept conquered) other nations, and who supplied foes we fought on the field of battle.

    Mirrors and Smoke uses other Americans as their thinly veiled villains.

    I'd argue that the first is an acceptable treatment of ones opponents at the height of the Cold War. I'd argue the second represents nothing less the destruction of the American experiment of representative government and civil culture.

    I think you're taking that conclusion a little far, and here's why:

    because that's not what's causing it.

    What is causing the result you're describing is the curious entropy of political systems.

    You seem think that corruption start with government. I don't, I think it starts with culture for it is culture that determines the nature of government. In short, we get what we exactly what we deserve.

    I feel it's the other way around.....government does not do what WE want. Government does whatever it...or in most cases, what special interest wants.....be it big corporations, banking cartels, and so on. The cultures, brainwashed on what government says...be it 'patriotism', 'nationalism', 'national security', just to name a few....and, the biggest tool for control....FEAR....to make otherwise sensible people agree to horrific, and downright STUPID things.....be it the cold war, the war on drugs, the war on terror.....stuff to keep Joe Sixpack and Plain Jane deaf and dumb, scared to a point of accepting laws and controls over them that goes against every and all concepts they believe in.

    It's simple...those in power want to take away more rights, freedoms and privacy from the common folks, for power is like a drug to them...they need more and more, and will, like any junkie, do what it takes to get 'their fix'. It's an old story going back centuries...and if someone thinks we're immune because either 'it's america!' or 'Rue, Britannia!' shows to me how historically ignorant some folks can be.
    dvZq2Aj.jpg
  • drakethewhitedrakethewhite Member Posts: 1,240 Arc User
    angrytarg wrote: »
    Mass media, mainstream media, I call it, is nothing but a public relations service for the government, either cramming lies and half truths the uninformed/ignorant masses, or showing rubbish that does not mean a damn thing.....I don't care about the news talking of Trump having an extra scoop of ice cream (this was an actual topic on mainstream news the other day ~eye roll~) or whatever Kim Kardassian is doing again, or the exploits of pro athletes and so on....while ignoring, if not ridiculing, topics of actual importance.

    Personally, I won't be weeping when that day the western empire falls arrives. All empires in the past have been corrupt and fell.
    Rome: Corrupt, FELL.
    British Empire: Corrupt, FELL.
    American Empire: Corrupt, since 'officially' since the end of the second world war. only a matter of time, now.

    I only wonder who the modern day equivalent of Honorious will be, and who will be the modern day equivalent of the Visigoths coming over the seventh hill. And I wonder who the 'barbarians' will be this time around. Regardless, I won't be mourning the end of the empire.....one does not mourn removing a tumor from a leg or something.

    Ugh, tone down the pathos a bit, will you? This mindset is what got Europe and the US in trouble in the first place.​​

    It is indeed. Great nations aren't destroyed from without, they are destroyed from within- by those abandoning its principles and by those who have learned to hate the virtues that created the original success.
    angrytarg wrote: »
    It's important to stand up and support the democratic movements of your region instead of sitting in a gloomy room and ranting about the end of civilization.​​

    IMO, it's reached the break over point. This happens to all successful cultures in time, for success provides enough time and comfort to allow its people to forget what is needed to remain successful. The path afterward is one of decay ever downward until an more expansive culture kills it.

    This time, nothing will be remembered of this era, for Western Culture was the only one that was willing to uncover the past instead of bury it. "Look on My Works, Ye Mighty, and Despair! " won't even be an option after the next dark age.
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    Marx, writing in the 1840's was a romanticist-mixing his analysis with hefty doses of fantasy wish-fulfillment. his fantasy was taken as serious work, and formed t he foundation for some of the most brutally murderous regimes of the 20th century.
    Yeah, the core concept of Communism assumes that the entirety of the population is actually willing to selflessly serve the greater good. That is fundamentally incompatible with human nature. Thus any society that tries to use that type of social structure is doomed from the start.
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  • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 37,284 Arc User
    'the greater good' huh? so dumbledore and grindelwald were both communists?​​
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  • xyquarzexyquarze Member Posts: 2,120 Arc User
    The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few?
    My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
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  • drakethewhitedrakethewhite Member Posts: 1,240 Arc User
    xyquarze wrote: »
    The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few?

    This is an acceptable viewpoint when it comes from the one or the few- it is the greatest form of evil when it comes from the many.
  • smokebaileysmokebailey Member Posts: 4,668 Arc User
    xyquarze wrote: »
    The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few?

    This is an acceptable viewpoint when it comes from the one or the few- it is the greatest form of evil when it comes from the many.

    Or.....when folks like Hitler or Hillary says the needs of society outweighs the need of the individual....both people said this.....it's one of those lines that can be abused from either end of the spectrum.
    dvZq2Aj.jpg
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    'the greater good' huh? so dumbledore and grindelwald were both communists?​​
    sharing a conceptual value doesn't autmatically equate to sharing ALL values. the mistake marx's theory made, was assuming that everyone would sacrifice ambition and selfishness to serve the collective, of their own accord.

    which is actually a value promoted among some of the early Christian sects (pre Nicea).

    Problem being, like with the Shakers, it's a concept that has no legs among the thin-skinned predatory animals known as humankind.

    it kind of ignores the fact that we value values because they're rare.
    Yes, it's part of what defines virtues and vices. See, it had a specific reason for being used so much in the early church. It wasn't just because it's a nice idea to share things, but because many members of the church had had their stuff taken from them. But people being people tend to follow dogma over thinking for themselves. also, the early church didn't have it as a proper institution, just as an extreme form of sharing.
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  • avoozuulavoozuul Member Posts: 3,215 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    There seems to be something wrong with the difficulty for level 19 captains on normal when fighting the dreadnought.
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  • xyquarzexyquarze Member Posts: 2,120 Arc User
    Unless you're trying to say that at lvl 19 you can blast it away in seconds, it is the already mentioned issue that the dread may take quite a while to kill for most builds (the term "quite a while" may change its meaning in minutes depending on your playstyle). Especially since the Kentari and the Tzenkethi frigates are absolute pushovers, so you blast everything away in seconds, except for that one ship.
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  • fovrelfovrel Member Posts: 1,448 Arc User
    The Dreadnought can be really tough. It seems to me the in the first stage of the fight it hardly takes any damage. My more advanced characters have hardly any problems with it because of the immunties and other defensive measures from spec and traits; they can survive an incoming attack. It is pretty hard to evade one, because the Dread can turn really fast and it is difficult to see its orientation.

    Also, sometimes your allies stay behind even Kumaarke. I fly back and they follow me and engage. The Dread can also put its targetting reticule on you from about 15 km. Projectiles can hit you at about 12 km. That is not just after I flew out of range. It happened after disengaging and loosing aggro.

    MY KDF characters use an Aceton Assimilator. As long as it is active/present the mission does not continue. It is regarded as a hostile mob.

    Disabling hostile mobs is a great feature, but there are some issues. They change to a friendly status, but are still your target and receive suddenly all your heals and buffs you meant to use on yourself. Can we have a mechanic, an option, so we loose target, when it is no longer hostile? A neutral status? Sensor Analysis works unhandy since you have to deselect the target manually.

    The black outs your away team is prone to in the first ground part because of the polluted air fits in with the story, gameplay wise, especially on replays, it is annoying.

  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    It's important to remember that the little ships can heal/buff the dread if you don't kill them first.
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  • hmkchmkc Member Posts: 79 Arc User
    but now not even Star Trek (or STO) can claim to be above politics anymore.
    ...
    *looks at TOS episodes involving Romulans and Klingons, then at The Undiscovered Country, then DS9, then Voyager, then Enterprise, then Into Darkness*
    Errrr...

    The devil is in the details...or the lack of detail, as far as those examples go. The leap from issues to people is enormous.

    It's interesting that you mention DS9, which occasionally got so heavy handed that one could argue that Star Trek was no longer post-racial...aka it was so normal to the setting that it was never mentioned, which for 1966 was absolutely awesome. Even then, the most it went into politics was "1950's racism was bad" and "don't let this awful version of 2024 happen" mixed with strawmen. (admittedly a low point in the series) It didn't caricature Newt Gingrich or any particular person. Aside from that, DS9 was very fair with Quark -- a caricature of capitalism. His arguments regarding Feranginar were rather convincing considering our real world systems don't work in a setting with magical replicators of post-scarcity +10.

    Voyager was post-gender. It was just normal...no big deal made about it. Not sure why that's listed. Haven't seen ST6 in over a decade so I'm lost with that one. TOS R/K were straw totalitarians at most, and never really even established as communists. Enterprise...maybe the Xindi arc parallels 9/11? Even then, they gave the Xindi fair treatment.

    It reminds me a bit of the Star Trek Ep: "Let that be you Last Battlefield" and that episode was brillant in the fact that it made racisim just seem "So Stupid", trite but most importantly deadly and self-destructive.

    As that episode had in it two bi-(skin) toned humanoids - black on one side and white on the other side - and in the schizim that took place, is was which side were you black or white on and the lenghts of which some people would go througth just to try to justify thier position and logic be damned!

    Another thing this episode proved in reading these comments, is that people can; read, hear and look at the same thing and you can get a totally different, if not, dymetrically opposed summations and interpretations from one to another.

    A good study into the human psyche!
    Kirk out!
  • bartimaeus#4158 bartimaeus Member Posts: 37 Arc User
    Skimming through the thread a bit, and after this TRAGIC analysis on capitalism and the works of Marx, i'd prefer not to bother, your opinions make the petit-bourgs seem revolutionary in comparison. So i'll just stick with the Episode here.

    The episode is meh. It's not one of the better scenarios Cryptic has given us, and there are quite some technical parts that make it look awful (cleaning up the debris by setting up a spatial charge and then sitting right next to it while it explodes.... good one), but Cryptic is known to take such shortcuts. In any case, recalling arcs like the Nimbus missions, or the Coliseum, where you survive only because Hakeev talks and talks and talks, giving just enough time to escape from his trap. And the entire Delta missions, the Iconians, the Krenim and the rest. I mean, the entire storyline, from the very beginning to the very last mission, is a monument to mediocrity (regardless if FED, ROM or KDF, though i believe the KDF might be a bit less corny than the rest). Respecting that, this episode has nothing to be jealous of. It is precisely how it should be, in order to fit in STO.
  • feordilagorgefeordilagorge Member Posts: 247 Arc User
    edited June 2017
    I thought I kept referring to it as "Smoke and Mirrors".

    Excuse me now as I must go eat a cheese and ham sandwich.
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