You consider Subspace Party Amplifiers to be Memorial Spheres/Balls, I consider I'm merely blowing up ships without their crew inside.
To each their own interpretations.
Apples and oranges. Some people like to celebrate at funerals, some don't. That is a matter of preference.
But you are literally executing every enemy you fight in the game, because that is literally how the game is written/made by the devs.
You can RP something else in your head while you do it, but your RP does not change the actual game, or what you are actually doing.
Now I will admit it would be interesting if the devs gave you an actual choice in dialog or mechanics, and then we could analyze how many people choose to execute vs take prisoners.
STO has been a war crimes simulator for many many years.
You get rewarded for attacking civilian ships and kidnapping the civilians on board, and rewarded further for either selling them into slavery or sending them to forced-labor camps.
Not to say that this thread's proposal has anything to do with war crimes. A story about the danger of hatred is meant to be inspiring, to be a warning. Hate destroys the bajorans, so we should avoid it in our own lives, try to be different from them.
I've explained this next bit before actually:
There is a difference between real things and imaginary things. Imaginary things have no moral component, morality is only about real things.
Take for example the computer programmer who creates a simple game. The game consists of a red button, and a display showing a number. Each time you click the button, the number displayed goes up by 1,000,000. Some text underneath labels this as "people killed."
Is clicking the button and making the number go up immoral? I don't believe it can be described in moral terms.
If the text is changed from "people killed" to "people tortured horribly," does this have moral implications? I don't believe it does.
Imaginary things are fundamentally and essentially different from real ones.
Funny thing is, no one here has used the word 'moral' besides you and @binkleyboy#3920 . So despite all the ridiculous charges and name-calling against @saurializard - who never said anything about 'morality' - it's just you guys fighting some false imagery you created yourself.
And even if he or she had said something like that, and to reply to your statement: just because there are no real life consequences of the actions, that doesn't mean that one cannot discuss the moral implications of them, were they to happen in the real world. Certainly not when a certain individual in these threads keeps making comparisons to real life and real societies (which shows, again, that you guys are doing what you're accusing others of).
STO has been a war crimes simulator for many many years.
Reported, done. Don't feed the troll folks.
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
STO has been a war crimes simulator for many many years.
You get rewarded for attacking civilian ships and kidnapping the civilians on board, and rewarded further for either selling them into slavery or sending them to forced-labor camps.
Not to say that this thread's proposal has anything to do with war crimes. A story about the danger of hatred is meant to be inspiring, to be a warning. Hate destroys the bajorans, so we should avoid it in our own lives, try to be different from them.
I've explained this next bit before actually:
There is a difference between real things and imaginary things. Imaginary things have no moral component, morality is only about real things.
Take for example the computer programmer who creates a simple game. The game consists of a red button, and a display showing a number. Each time you click the button, the number displayed goes up by 1,000,000. Some text underneath labels this as "people killed."
Is clicking the button and making the number go up immoral? I don't believe it can be described in moral terms.
If the text is changed from "people killed" to "people tortured horribly," does this have moral implications? I don't believe it does.
Imaginary things are fundamentally and essentially different from real ones.
Funny thing is, no one here has used the word 'moral' besides you and @binkleyboy#3920 . So despite all the ridiculous charges and name-calling against @saurializard - who never said anything about 'morality' - it's just you guys fighting some false imagery you created yourself.
And even if he or she had said something like that, and to reply to your statement: just because there are no real life consequences of the actions, that doesn't mean that one cannot discuss the moral implications of them, were they to happen in the real world. Certainly not when a certain individual in these threads keeps making comparisons to real life and real societies (which shows, again, that you guys are doing what you're accusing others of).
I don't make any comparisons to real life, because it's a video game based on a fictional story.
This isn't to say that we can't learn lessons from fiction that apply to real life though.
I've said clearly that I think there is a good lesson to be learned about hatred from the bajoran example, and a lesson to be learned about the existential danger of weapons of mass destruction.
A mission spent studying the fate of bajor after hate groups turn the planet into a grave would give people a chance to think on these issues, to see their consequences illustrated in the game, and hopefully, to learn something.
Yes you did. And you're supporting those who do as well.
Also, interesting way of learning things. Learning a lesson from fiction, without making comparisons between that fiction and the real world that you want to be taught the lesson.
Going to Syria to join ISIS and act like a bajoran is bad. Serving others selflessly, for the greater good, like a Cardassian is good.
Consider you are traveling through the desert and come across a man dying of thirst. You give him water, and he survives his ordeal. Later on, he commits a terrible crime. It was not wrong of you to give him water in the desert, even if it is you who is his victim.
Name-calling? I think "genocide apologist" and "fascist" counts as name-calling.
Druk gave a very interesting idea about how to re-make Bajor that would conform to the the new lighting system limitations.
Other people made this a moral issue when they brought up Hitler and genocide and fascism. We are simply saying that RL morality and a fictitious world where you literally kill every bad guy is not a valid comparison.
Reading helps, too. Glad I could clarify this for you. Let me know if I need to break it down for you some more.
Don't be ridiculous. This was made into a moral and genocide issue from the start when the OP began talking about how a certain culture should be erased because of their culture. There's even a suggestion from binkleyboy to make a genetic weapon that would target everything remotely Bajoran, on the first page.
You're right, reading helps, try it sometime. And maybe look in the mirror every now and then.
STO has been a war crimes simulator for many many years.
You get rewarded for attacking civilian ships and kidnapping the civilians on board, and rewarded further for either selling them into slavery or sending them to forced-labor camps.
Not to say that this thread's proposal has anything to do with war crimes. A story about the danger of hatred is meant to be inspiring, to be a warning. Hate destroys the bajorans, so we should avoid it in our own lives, try to be different from them.
I've explained this next bit before actually:
There is a difference between real things and imaginary things. Imaginary things have no moral component, morality is only about real things.
Take for example the computer programmer who creates a simple game. The game consists of a red button, and a display showing a number. Each time you click the button, the number displayed goes up by 1,000,000. Some text underneath labels this as "people killed."
Is clicking the button and making the number go up immoral? I don't believe it can be described in moral terms.
If the text is changed from "people killed" to "people tortured horribly," does this have moral implications? I don't believe it does.
Imaginary things are fundamentally and essentially different from real ones.
Funny thing is, no one here has used the word 'moral' besides you and @binkleyboy#3920 . So despite all the ridiculous charges and name-calling against @saurializard - who never said anything about 'morality' - it's just you guys fighting some false imagery you created yourself.
And even if he or she had said something like that, and to reply to your statement: just because there are no real life consequences of the actions, that doesn't mean that one cannot discuss the moral implications of them, were they to happen in the real world. Certainly not when a certain individual in these threads keeps making comparisons to real life and real societies (which shows, again, that you guys are doing what you're accusing others of).
I don't make any comparisons to real life, because it's a video game based on a fictional story.
This isn't to say that we can't learn lessons from fiction that apply to real life though.
I've said clearly that I think there is a good lesson to be learned about hatred from the bajoran example, and a lesson to be learned about the existential danger of weapons of mass destruction.
A mission spent studying the fate of bajor after hate groups turn the planet into a grave would give people a chance to think on these issues, to see their consequences illustrated in the game, and hopefully, to learn something.
Yes you did. And you're supporting those who do as well.
Also, interesting way of learning things. Learning a lesson from fiction, without making comparisons between that fiction and the real world that you want to be taught the lesson.
Yeah, that really makes sense.
I did what?
Also, I don't think it's controversial to believe that we can learn lessons from fiction that apply to real things.
Why do you think it is controversial? Where's the controversy?
Ah you need me to break things down for you. Alright, that 'yes you did' was in reply to your first statement: "I don't make any comparisons to real life".
The rest of your comment is repeating the same tactic. I didn't say or imply that it's controversial. You're suggesting that a destroyed Bajor could serve as a cautionary tale when it comes to weapons of mass destruction, hatred and so on. There would be no point to teach it if it has no real life relevance. That automatically implies that it touches upon real life issues and comparisons are thus made, with Bajor serving as an allegory.
This thread may not have much longer for this world, so I'd like to make a significant point:
This is not the first thread of it's kind. That is to say, this is not the first thread discussing the many negative qualities of the Bajoran race, and interesting ways to explore those negative qualities in game.
However, these threads are never closed based on the subject of the thread. You will notice a mod replied to this thread on the first page and kept the thread open. That means there is nothing wrong with the OP itself.
These threads only get closed when unstable people come out of the woodwork and start making ridiculous comparisons about someone's RL morality based on story ideas in a video game.
So I would like to point out that the problem with "these threads" are not the subject of the thread, but the people who cannot control themselves because they are so obsessed with a fictional TV show that they are personally offended when someone has a new story idea to explore that they do not like.
To any mod reading this, can you please put a stop to these kinds of comments early in the thread so that it does not derail the idea of the thread next time?
So I would like to point out that the problem with "these threads" are not the subject of the thread, but the people who cannot control themselves because they are so obsessed with a fictional TV show that they are personally offended when someone has a new story idea to explore that they do not like.
Such a lovely irony. You guys seem to be personally offended when others point out why a new story ideas could be considered tasteless and easily derailing into very serious issues.
Name-calling? I think "genocide apologist" and "fascist" counts as name-calling.
Druk gave a very interesting idea about how to re-make Bajor that would conform to the the new lighting system limitations.
Other people made this a moral issue when they brought up Hitler and genocide and fascism. We are simply saying that RL morality and a fictitious world where you literally kill every bad guy is not a valid comparison.
Reading helps, too. Glad I could clarify this for you. Let me know if I need to break it down for you some more.
Don't be ridiculous. This was made into a moral and genocide issue from the start when the OP began talking about how a certain culture should be erased because of their culture. There's even a suggestion from binkleyboy to make a genetic weapon that would target everything remotely Bajoran, on the first page.
You're right, reading helps, try it sometime. And maybe look in the mirror every now and then.
Hi risian, its me, the OP.
Would you please explain what you mean when you said I "began talking about how a certain culture should be erased because of their culture."
Some key words to help in your search will be 'culture' 'should' and 'erased.'
I don't think you'll be able to explain it, I think you just made it up.
You are arguing for an episode where the surface of Bajor is 'being rendered uninhabitable', 'population centres destroyed' with the main reason being that 'The Bajorans are a hateful, fractious, and violent people'. Further, 'Bajoran grave world' and no suggestion to look for survivors, instead you're arguing for 'taking environmental readings to determine when it's safe for people to go live there'.
Surely you remember writing these things? If so, why do you need me to remind you that I didn't make this up? If you don't remember writing this, don't you think you should be a bit more worried about yourself and care a bit less about Bajorans?
OP (the Ferengi, the philosopher king): starts ridiculously premised Thread with special characters in Subject. Responds with ludicrous conclusions and attributes such to others.
Leader (de facto): praises premise, agrees with OP, starts an Alphonse and Gaston routine with the OP, waits for one or two counter-posters to target for counter-attack directly and through Accolytes.
Accolyte (low post count under this nom de guerre): will spar with counter-posters and tempt them to go over the line and get banned. In some cases may sacrifice self to the ban to get selected counter-posters banned.
Rinse and repeat as needed.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
So I would like to point out that the problem with "these threads" are not the subject of the thread, but the people who cannot control themselves because they are so obsessed with a fictional TV show that they are personally offended when someone has a new story idea to explore that they do not like.
Trolling does often go that route, a "logical" but highly sensational idea is presented which results in heated and unproductive discussion. Even if the OP is earnest, the effect of tenuously connected facts supporting an extreme, context-free argument is the same.
Intent doesn't particularly matter, it's the fact of suggesting that STO can justify genocide based on what is ultimately it's format (ie. action MMO-RPG) that derails these threads. There is no structure to begin with, because without context (ie. a view of common conventions, why those exist, and what do they signify in human society) the subject being discussed is not connected to reality. That is to say, the idea is completely nonsensical.
For example, it's [grammatically] possible to state "STO is a war crime simulator" but one cannot argue (rationally) in any direction from there because "war crime simulator" has no meaning to any other community, genre, or entertainment format. If one tries to apply the OP's criteria, one finds that "war crime simulator" is pretty much synonymous with "combat-driven video game" and the term loses any ability to distinguish specific elements of specific games. Thus without any grounding utility, the only thing that remains to "War crime simulator" are the emotional reactions to the suggestion (in place of the more conventional term "action MMO-RPG.") Discussion is therefore free to drift with the whims of its participants, hence the consistent "five-alarm dumpster fire" outcome as the OP continually pushes for his/her careful reinterpretations in spite of their incompatibility with community discourse and direct evidence for the problems that creates in general discussion.
At the very least, knowing how people consistently respond to these threads (as they are phrased) should be lesson enough for the OP to desist in making them. If he/she wants to have this discussion without interruption, you guys can take it over to a private message thread. Think of it this way, gasoline isn't dangerous in itself. One can academically consider its chemical properties without its destructive potential. But one should still take care not to just throw it anywhere, because it doesn't take much once things are beyond your personal control to set a destructive fire.
Keep it (ie. this general topic) to a secure location where you know it'll be properly handled. Otherwise one must conclude this is general trolling (ie. arson).
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Comments
Apples and oranges. Some people like to celebrate at funerals, some don't. That is a matter of preference.
But you are literally executing every enemy you fight in the game, because that is literally how the game is written/made by the devs.
You can RP something else in your head while you do it, but your RP does not change the actual game, or what you are actually doing.
Now I will admit it would be interesting if the devs gave you an actual choice in dialog or mechanics, and then we could analyze how many people choose to execute vs take prisoners.
Funny thing is, no one here has used the word 'moral' besides you and @binkleyboy#3920 . So despite all the ridiculous charges and name-calling against @saurializard - who never said anything about 'morality' - it's just you guys fighting some false imagery you created yourself.
And even if he or she had said something like that, and to reply to your statement: just because there are no real life consequences of the actions, that doesn't mean that one cannot discuss the moral implications of them, were they to happen in the real world. Certainly not when a certain individual in these threads keeps making comparisons to real life and real societies (which shows, again, that you guys are doing what you're accusing others of).
Reported, done. Don't feed the troll folks.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Yes you did. And you're supporting those who do as well.
Also, interesting way of learning things. Learning a lesson from fiction, without making comparisons between that fiction and the real world that you want to be taught the lesson.
Yeah, that really makes sense.
As for:
Ooooh boy:
And the rest from https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline#/discussion/1226655/why-are-bajorians-so-bad/p1
Don't be ridiculous. This was made into a moral and genocide issue from the start when the OP began talking about how a certain culture should be erased because of their culture. There's even a suggestion from binkleyboy to make a genetic weapon that would target everything remotely Bajoran, on the first page.
You're right, reading helps, try it sometime. And maybe look in the mirror every now and then.
Ah you need me to break things down for you. Alright, that 'yes you did' was in reply to your first statement: "I don't make any comparisons to real life".
The rest of your comment is repeating the same tactic. I didn't say or imply that it's controversial. You're suggesting that a destroyed Bajor could serve as a cautionary tale when it comes to weapons of mass destruction, hatred and so on. There would be no point to teach it if it has no real life relevance. That automatically implies that it touches upon real life issues and comparisons are thus made, with Bajor serving as an allegory.
This is not the first thread of it's kind. That is to say, this is not the first thread discussing the many negative qualities of the Bajoran race, and interesting ways to explore those negative qualities in game.
However, these threads are never closed based on the subject of the thread. You will notice a mod replied to this thread on the first page and kept the thread open. That means there is nothing wrong with the OP itself.
These threads only get closed when unstable people come out of the woodwork and start making ridiculous comparisons about someone's RL morality based on story ideas in a video game.
So I would like to point out that the problem with "these threads" are not the subject of the thread, but the people who cannot control themselves because they are so obsessed with a fictional TV show that they are personally offended when someone has a new story idea to explore that they do not like.
To any mod reading this, can you please put a stop to these kinds of comments early in the thread so that it does not derail the idea of the thread next time?
You are arguing for an episode where the surface of Bajor is 'being rendered uninhabitable', 'population centres destroyed' with the main reason being that 'The Bajorans are a hateful, fractious, and violent people'. Further, 'Bajoran grave world' and no suggestion to look for survivors, instead you're arguing for 'taking environmental readings to determine when it's safe for people to go live there'.
Surely you remember writing these things? If so, why do you need me to remind you that I didn't make this up? If you don't remember writing this, don't you think you should be a bit more worried about yourself and care a bit less about Bajorans?
OP (the Ferengi, the philosopher king): starts ridiculously premised Thread with special characters in Subject. Responds with ludicrous conclusions and attributes such to others.
Leader (de facto): praises premise, agrees with OP, starts an Alphonse and Gaston routine with the OP, waits for one or two counter-posters to target for counter-attack directly and through Accolytes.
Leader (figurehead): makes obligatory post endorsing the topic, reminds us that he is the Blessed One©® and is put back into storage for the rest of the Thread.
Accolyte (low post count under this nom de guerre): will spar with counter-posters and tempt them to go over the line and get banned. In some cases may sacrifice self to the ban to get selected counter-posters banned.
Rinse and repeat as needed.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Trolling does often go that route, a "logical" but highly sensational idea is presented which results in heated and unproductive discussion. Even if the OP is earnest, the effect of tenuously connected facts supporting an extreme, context-free argument is the same.
Intent doesn't particularly matter, it's the fact of suggesting that STO can justify genocide based on what is ultimately it's format (ie. action MMO-RPG) that derails these threads. There is no structure to begin with, because without context (ie. a view of common conventions, why those exist, and what do they signify in human society) the subject being discussed is not connected to reality. That is to say, the idea is completely nonsensical.
For example, it's [grammatically] possible to state "STO is a war crime simulator" but one cannot argue (rationally) in any direction from there because "war crime simulator" has no meaning to any other community, genre, or entertainment format. If one tries to apply the OP's criteria, one finds that "war crime simulator" is pretty much synonymous with "combat-driven video game" and the term loses any ability to distinguish specific elements of specific games. Thus without any grounding utility, the only thing that remains to "War crime simulator" are the emotional reactions to the suggestion (in place of the more conventional term "action MMO-RPG.") Discussion is therefore free to drift with the whims of its participants, hence the consistent "five-alarm dumpster fire" outcome as the OP continually pushes for his/her careful reinterpretations in spite of their incompatibility with community discourse and direct evidence for the problems that creates in general discussion.
At the very least, knowing how people consistently respond to these threads (as they are phrased) should be lesson enough for the OP to desist in making them. If he/she wants to have this discussion without interruption, you guys can take it over to a private message thread. Think of it this way, gasoline isn't dangerous in itself. One can academically consider its chemical properties without its destructive potential. But one should still take care not to just throw it anywhere, because it doesn't take much once things are beyond your personal control to set a destructive fire.
Keep it (ie. this general topic) to a secure location where you know it'll be properly handled. Otherwise one must conclude this is general trolling (ie. arson).
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
CRUISERS NEED A 206% HULL BUFF