Alright, for the sake of argument, let's leave trolls out for a bit. You only do premades and thus know who you're playing with.
So, you have a Gravity Well that has a range of 12km (it's totally doable if you invest a bit in CtrlX) - everything in your team would start taking damage even if they are not yet capable of firing at the enemies yet. But ok, you're pulled towards enemies, good thing? Nope, one moment you'll find your whole team in the middle of exploding enemies and get killed by Warp Core Breaches.
Still not convinced OP's idea is bad?
You're a drainer, and you have a tank in team. As a drainer, one of your favourite abilities is Tyken's Rift. So, you cast off your Tyken's Rift, but OOPS - your tank wants to get as much aggro as possible (naturally) and flies very close to the enemy. So your tank gets drained empty by your TR, explodes and soon you and other teammates die as well.
Is this the game you want?
Oh boy if they would ever make such a thing happen I could never ever play a space map with you sci guys again.
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I've actually endorsed the idea in the past, but the way it's presented here is overkill and I'll have to come out as a 'no' vote.
a "CHANCE" of friendly fire might be better, particularly as a way of opening up a drawback on the (ab)use of AOE attacks, but to have a flat "It will friendly fire" goes too far. Having, say, a abase 2% chance that your spread/faw/well could hit allies, and then introducing duty officers in a pack with the same patch to mitigate or reduce it, might be viable. (figure that while targeting systems and sensors have certainly improved over the last few centuries, almost as certainly, ECM and countermeasures have also improved...)
if it's a percentage, then it's risky, but it's also able to be mitigated, this puts power in the hands of players.
Then it would still not really matter that much. I think the whole idea of the OP was that players themselves should be more critical towards their own abilities and when to use them and when not. Basically, some basic tactical thinking where AoE abilities are not always superior to surgically hitting a target - which would require more targeting, focussing on a specific target while keeping paying attention to all - in short, it would be more difficult.
While I certainly don't agree that it should apply 100% of the time, forcing players to be a bit more concious about what they're doing, rather than going for AoE abilities almost by default would be a good change imo. And we know that the Devs agree with this up to a certain level as they have been making changes to things like Overload and High Yield to make them more interesting compared to FaW and Torpedo Spread.
I do, again, agree with the notions posted by others that trolling could be a real concern - but as I said before, I'm sure they could implement it in such a way that the one who's spamming the AoE abilities would also hurt himself - possibly even hurt himself more - than the other players.
Trolling is an issue, I've encountered trolls but let's not pretend that we, or the Devs, cannot come up with solutions. That's probably why @sophlogimo is wondering where these trolls are; he may underestimate the potential for trolling, I think some others here are clearly overestimating this potential or at least underestimating the possibilities to come up with a design that takes those trolls into account. If this weren't the case, then trolls and trolling would be occuring much more than it currently is, I think that's the point he's trying to make.
And btw, this is coming from someone who mainly plays as a Sci with Tyken's Rifts, Vortex, Neutronic and PAP Torpedo Spreads - and scatter volley when playing on a Tac.
I have found it quite strange that it's possible to use these things without ever having to worry about the environment and the allied players in it - it's not very logical or realistic.
Someone that wanted to troll wouldn't care one bit if they blew their own ship up, if their intent was to make others have a hard time playing the map, and that is right up the ally of trolls and griefers, then their own ship blowing up is at most a minor inconvenience. Just a short 12 second break between troll attempts.
Alright, for the sake of argument, let's leave trolls out for a bit. You only do premades and thus know who you're playing with.
So, you have a Gravity Well that has a range of 12km (it's totally doable if you invest a bit in CtrlX) - everything in your team would start taking damage even if they are not yet capable of firing at the enemies yet. But ok, you're pulled towards enemies, good thing? Nope, one moment you'll find your whole team in the middle of exploding enemies and get killed by Warp Core Breaches.
Still not convinced OP's idea is bad?
You're a drainer, and you have a tank in team. As a drainer, one of your favourite abilities is Tyken's Rift. So, you cast off your Tyken's Rift, but OOPS - your tank wants to get as much aggro as possible (naturally) and flies very close to the enemy. So your tank gets drained empty by your TR, explodes and soon you and other teammates die as well.
Is this the game you want?
Oh boy if they would ever make such a thing happen I could never ever play a space map with you sci guys again.
I fire off GW, get pulled into it myself first. You blast off your CSV, killing both me and yourself as well, as I had FBP up. I'm sure I'd laugh first time, but it would really suck if we actually had a system like that.
And btw, this is coming from someone who mainly plays as a Sci with Tyken's Rifts, Vortex, Neutronic and PAP Torpedo Spreads - and scatter volley when playing on a Tac.
I have found it quite strange that it's possible to use these things without ever having to worry about the environment and the allied players in it - it's not very logical or realistic.
Since when has STO been logical or realistic? As I previously stated, something like this would make AoE abilities completely undesirable (unless we're talking about trolls, yeah). And not sure why you hate your own builds so much, as you certainly don't seem like a troll to me.
I've actually endorsed the idea in the past, but the way it's presented here is overkill and I'll have to come out as a 'no' vote.
a "CHANCE" of friendly fire might be better, particularly as a way of opening up a drawback on the (ab)use of AOE attacks, but to have a flat "It will friendly fire" goes too far. Having, say, a abase 2% chance that your spread/faw/well could hit allies, and then introducing duty officers in a pack with the same patch to mitigate or reduce it, might be viable. (figure that while targeting systems and sensors have certainly improved over the last few centuries, almost as certainly, ECM and countermeasures have also improved...)
if it's a percentage, then it's risky, but it's also able to be mitigated, this puts power in the hands of players.
Then it would still not really matter that much. I think the whole idea of the OP was that players themselves should be more critical towards their own abilities and when to use them and when not. Basically, some basic tactical thinking where AoE abilities are not always superior to surgically hitting a target - which would require more targeting, focussing on a specific target while keeping paying attention to all - in short, it would be more difficult.
While I certainly don't agree that it should apply 100% of the time, forcing players to be a bit more concious about what they're doing, rather than going for AoE abilities almost by default would be a good change imo. And we know that the Devs agree with this up to a certain level as they have been making changes to things like Overload and High Yield to make them more interesting compared to FaW and Torpedo Spread.
I do, again, agree with the notions posted by others that trolling could be a real concern - but as I said before, I'm sure they could implement it in such a way that the one who's spamming the AoE abilities would also hurt himself - possibly even hurt himself more - than the other players.
Trolling is an issue, I've encountered trolls but let's not pretend that we, or the Devs, cannot come up with solutions. That's probably why @sophlogimo is wondering where these trolls are; he may underestimate the potential for trolling, I think some others here are clearly overestimating this potential or at least underestimating the possibilities to come up with a design that takes those trolls into account. If this weren't the case, then trolls and trolling would be occuring much more than it currently is, I think that's the point he's trying to make.
I'm sorry...but are you under the mistaken impression that a troll will not troll because they may damage themselves? You can have them insta blow up and if they can make life difficult for the other 4 players, they would do it in an instant. And this game does not have a GM system in place. There is no policing of this game...at all. IF they did and they would ban people who do this for weeks with perma bans for people who did this on a regular basis...sure, why not. But without that...nope.
To be honest, yes, I was under that impression. I don't have the mindset of a troll I guess.
Anyway, the problem of trolls not being punished is a general problem that deserves to be solved anyway. So that means that this proposal is just another reason to start solving it
I don't hate my own builds, but they are like I said somewhat illogical. And the game may not always be very logical, that in itself is not really a reason or excuse not to ever make some logical changes.
I don't think it would make AoE abilities undesirable - it would just mean that it's not the solution to everything, under all circumstances and that there would be a downside. And of course it would require some better piloting to evade things like 'allied' GW's. Against clustered enemies like those in Azure Nebula to name just one instance, AoE abilities could still work very well. Players would just have to pay a bit more attention and that's not something I would consider a bad thing.
We already have friendly fire. If there's an acetone drone in there and 3 jacktards open up with scatter volley/FAW anyone else in the furball gets burnt to ash by their stupidity.
Which is why I've been proposing clusters of mines with feedback pulse - so at least the person who can't figure out how to check fire kills themselves instead of their teammates...
I have found it quite strange that it's possible to use these things without ever having to worry about the environment and the allied players in it - it's not very logical or realistic.
I have found it quite strange that:
When your ship explodes, you press a button and it reappears fully intact
Starship weapons have a range of 10km
Sniper rifles have a range of 35m
You can call down orbital bombardment while indoors or underground, without having the roof collapse on your head
Human characters can survive being directly hit by orbital bombardment
You can revive characters that have been vaporized, by waving a tricorder at the air where they used to be
An unlimited number of smallcraft can be launched from carrier hangars and never recovered
Your captain only knows how to call the ship and ask them to beam down some redshirts if you picked the tactical career
Your ship's movement is severely crippled for no reason every time it enters combat
Despite being a fleet admiral, you have to solve preschool-level puzzles yourself instead of ordering a subordinate to do them for you
Admiralty ships complete an elaborate mission in 15 minutes, then spend the next day in maintenance
You have to fly around the galaxy to send your duty officers on assignment, but when they're done they can teleport back to your ship instantly no matter where it is
You can do a mission then choose for yourself, after the fact, which organization you gained favor with as a result
You need to carry specific equipment to throw grenades, but your bridge officers can be trained to pull them out of their pants
etc, etc, etc...
It's not very logical or realistic. It's a videogame.
Under STO's current system and set-up this would never work.
Some AOE's have damage range larger than the engagements range of your own guns (10km), e.g. things like GW. The mechanics of these things would need serious reworking.
Many other games have friendly fire systems in place. They are not solely the domain of trolls and griefers, though these do exist. But many other games have much more involved GM systems so and true trolling behaviour gets hammered out fast, something STO is sadly lacking in.
The players themselves in STO have grown lazy and used to spamming abilities without worrying about friendly fire, hence there will be an unwillingness to accept such a change. A new game where it stood from the get go would be accepted far more readily than adding it to a 7 year old game with no previous incarnation of FF.
However, done right this could add a new level of challenge to gameplay were it developed from the ground up in the first place:
1) It adds some realism and logic to engagements so that players can;t just blindly shoot AOE damage into an area if their own team is in the way. People will actually have to think (GASP!) about how to take out a group of enemies.
2) It should only be present at the maximum difficulty, because you don't want to alienate the lower end players who are only here for some casual Trek fun.
3) Add in some form punishment feedback for causing friendly damage. If you do X damage to friendly targets within a set time your ship is disabled, or you loose rewards or something. It may not solve the real troll problem but it'll make the people not thinking before launching a TS into enemy lines realise the error of their ways.
4) Make it so you cannot target friendly targets to shoot at, but they can bit caught in AOE effects. Again reduces the trolling potential as you need an enemiy target near to a friendly to be able to fire near them.
5) You'd need a much more involved GM set up so that real trolls and trouble makers get reported and dealt with properly.
We do already have some abilities that can inflict friendly fire damage. But they're the exception, and making everything like that would be insanely bad.
Area-of-effect abilities are hard to balance in STO, because for some reason, they all know how to distinguish between friend and foe.
But what if they were not able to do that? What if your Gravity Well III was as attracting and damaging to your own and your team's ships as to the enemy's? If Charged Particle Burst drained everybody's shields? What if Torpefo Spread hit everything in its arc, regardless of allegiance?
Sure, that would make the game harder. But isn't that what is needed?
If nothing else the potential of this for abuse by trolls and grievers makes it a bad idea.
There is one thing I would like to see added. Tractor beam should damage or hold the ship with the lowest mass, or we could use inertia since ships in the game don't have a number for mass.
Comments
Oh boy if they would ever make such a thing happen I could never ever play a space map with you sci guys again.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
Then it would still not really matter that much. I think the whole idea of the OP was that players themselves should be more critical towards their own abilities and when to use them and when not. Basically, some basic tactical thinking where AoE abilities are not always superior to surgically hitting a target - which would require more targeting, focussing on a specific target while keeping paying attention to all - in short, it would be more difficult.
While I certainly don't agree that it should apply 100% of the time, forcing players to be a bit more concious about what they're doing, rather than going for AoE abilities almost by default would be a good change imo. And we know that the Devs agree with this up to a certain level as they have been making changes to things like Overload and High Yield to make them more interesting compared to FaW and Torpedo Spread.
I do, again, agree with the notions posted by others that trolling could be a real concern - but as I said before, I'm sure they could implement it in such a way that the one who's spamming the AoE abilities would also hurt himself - possibly even hurt himself more - than the other players.
Trolling is an issue, I've encountered trolls but let's not pretend that we, or the Devs, cannot come up with solutions. That's probably why @sophlogimo is wondering where these trolls are; he may underestimate the potential for trolling, I think some others here are clearly overestimating this potential or at least underestimating the possibilities to come up with a design that takes those trolls into account. If this weren't the case, then trolls and trolling would be occuring much more than it currently is, I think that's the point he's trying to make.
I have found it quite strange that it's possible to use these things without ever having to worry about the environment and the allied players in it - it's not very logical or realistic.
I fire off GW, get pulled into it myself first. You blast off your CSV, killing both me and yourself as well, as I had FBP up.
Since when has STO been logical or realistic? As I previously stated, something like this would make AoE abilities completely undesirable (unless we're talking about trolls, yeah). And not sure why you hate your own builds so much, as you certainly don't seem like a troll to me.
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
My Youtube channel containing STO videos.
To be honest, yes, I was under that impression. I don't have the mindset of a troll I guess.
Anyway, the problem of trolls not being punished is a general problem that deserves to be solved anyway. So that means that this proposal is just another reason to start solving it
Out of fear of messing up the quoting...
@tunebreaker
I don't hate my own builds, but they are like I said somewhat illogical. And the game may not always be very logical, that in itself is not really a reason or excuse not to ever make some logical changes.
I don't think it would make AoE abilities undesirable - it would just mean that it's not the solution to everything, under all circumstances and that there would be a downside. And of course it would require some better piloting to evade things like 'allied' GW's. Against clustered enemies like those in Azure Nebula to name just one instance, AoE abilities could still work very well. Players would just have to pay a bit more attention and that's not something I would consider a bad thing.
Which is why I've been proposing clusters of mines with feedback pulse - so at least the person who can't figure out how to check fire kills themselves instead of their teammates...
When your ship explodes, you press a button and it reappears fully intact
Starship weapons have a range of 10km
Sniper rifles have a range of 35m
You can call down orbital bombardment while indoors or underground, without having the roof collapse on your head
Human characters can survive being directly hit by orbital bombardment
You can revive characters that have been vaporized, by waving a tricorder at the air where they used to be
An unlimited number of smallcraft can be launched from carrier hangars and never recovered
Your captain only knows how to call the ship and ask them to beam down some redshirts if you picked the tactical career
Your ship's movement is severely crippled for no reason every time it enters combat
Despite being a fleet admiral, you have to solve preschool-level puzzles yourself instead of ordering a subordinate to do them for you
Admiralty ships complete an elaborate mission in 15 minutes, then spend the next day in maintenance
You have to fly around the galaxy to send your duty officers on assignment, but when they're done they can teleport back to your ship instantly no matter where it is
You can do a mission then choose for yourself, after the fact, which organization you gained favor with as a result
You need to carry specific equipment to throw grenades, but your bridge officers can be trained to pull them out of their pants
etc, etc, etc...
It's not very logical or realistic. It's a videogame.
Some AOE's have damage range larger than the engagements range of your own guns (10km), e.g. things like GW. The mechanics of these things would need serious reworking.
Many other games have friendly fire systems in place. They are not solely the domain of trolls and griefers, though these do exist. But many other games have much more involved GM systems so and true trolling behaviour gets hammered out fast, something STO is sadly lacking in.
The players themselves in STO have grown lazy and used to spamming abilities without worrying about friendly fire, hence there will be an unwillingness to accept such a change. A new game where it stood from the get go would be accepted far more readily than adding it to a 7 year old game with no previous incarnation of FF.
However, done right this could add a new level of challenge to gameplay were it developed from the ground up in the first place:
1) It adds some realism and logic to engagements so that players can;t just blindly shoot AOE damage into an area if their own team is in the way. People will actually have to think (GASP!) about how to take out a group of enemies.
2) It should only be present at the maximum difficulty, because you don't want to alienate the lower end players who are only here for some casual Trek fun.
3) Add in some form punishment feedback for causing friendly damage. If you do X damage to friendly targets within a set time your ship is disabled, or you loose rewards or something. It may not solve the real troll problem but it'll make the people not thinking before launching a TS into enemy lines realise the error of their ways.
4) Make it so you cannot target friendly targets to shoot at, but they can bit caught in AOE effects. Again reduces the trolling potential as you need an enemiy target near to a friendly to be able to fire near them.
5) You'd need a much more involved GM set up so that real trolls and trouble makers get reported and dealt with properly.
My character Tsin'xing
Agree as well.