Honestly, there is little to no trolling potential in it - provided people those who don't want to be trolled) use a minimum of brains and stay out of harm's way.
You understand neither of the mindset of trolls nor the true magnitude of what you propose if you really believe this.
When it comes to the OP and his absurd ideas you might have just given me the explanation I was looking for. Thanks! He either doesn’t understand the concept of trolling at all or he understands it all too well.
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Despite the potential for trolling, the concept is a good one. It would also fix the issue where AoE abilities are always to be preferred over single target abilities.
Maybe allied ships should only suffer an x percentage of the original effect (this could be explained by having allied ships' computers coordinate and automatically partially avoid things like GW or TR or defend against it) but there should be some downside to always spamming AoE stuff. Just mindlessly stacking buffs and attacking multiple targets at once shouldn't always be promoted.
If they further gave an option to reflect some of the incoming alllied damage (person A uses AoE ability, person B gets hit and person A suffers some or even more damage as well as a result of this deflection - call it the 'needs of the many' where one incompetent captain suffers from his own actions to avoid further team deaths) that may lower the incentive to just spam these AoE abilities to troll others - as you would also be trolling yourself.
Of course it may be easier to just give enemies the ability to reflect damage more often - that other solution that's come up very often when discussing ways to reign in the supremacy of multi-target/AoE abilities.
I'm sure they could differentiate between abilities that were cast before someone was in the area, and abilities that were created when someone was already at the spot where you throw your, say, gravity well.
It's easy to shoot down suggestions before even thinking of ways how it could be done. That doesn't make others 'stupid'.
IF......the game had been built with some sort of "nightmare difficulty mode" from the go then this could have made sense. A lot of games have a hardcore mode where damage is multiplied or friendly fire is turned on. I could see it being quite interesting to play within, but the trouble is that the game is build so it could never work.
I mean look at the effect of a Grav Well; it should pull anything nearby but if we changed it to friendly fire then it's max range would potentially be further than our own weapons ranges, making some engagements almost impossible. How is the team meant to engage within a 10km range if they will get caught in their own team's GW in the process?
Also, a lot of the bonuses for things like traits etc rely on players and enemies being so close as to nearly tough, friendly fire would be a nightmare in that situation.
They'd need to rework the mechanics and ranges of things first to introduce such a system. But i'd not be opposed to it were it done correctly.
this idea is great! with this i could kill my team and make youtube videos about it! yay!
after the lost of sarcasm i can say i'm against this "ff on" for AOE abilities.
i know that AOE is the king for pve at the moment, but in most of the mmos it is anyway.
I'm sure they could differentiate between abilities that were cast before someone was in the area, and abilities that were created when someone was already at the spot where you throw your, say, gravity well.
So I guess this should be interpreted as "Make AoE have friendly fire... except in specific conditions", which pretty much defeats the purpose of the original idea.
Also, this suggestion is "nice" and all, but how about the fact there is a temporal spec tree specialized in having player-generated anomalies follow the player's current target? How about AOEs that do more than dealing damage, that drain shields, confuse, increase cooldowns, disable, prevent fighter launches, stop engines, ruin the perception, or even heal? How about abilities that spread across several targets from the main one on a DoT?
Aw, would that be too difficult to adapt to for you?
The strategy to object to anything that turns off godmode in STO with outright insulting words could lead to spiteful reactions. Be careful, or you might get what I wish for.
It's been explained already why this is a bad idea.
I won't bother to explain again since you just dismiss any idea counter to yours anyway. I kinda hope they do take the idea though, it would be funny to watch all team content become totally unplayable as griefers reign supreme.
I'll dismiss things I find dismissable. You can do the same and have done so, so why do you complain?
Being on guard about the occasional troll or (more likely) guy-who-is-still-learning is not much. Hell, if trolls were as prevalent in STO as some of you would have us to believe, no one would ever finish the no-heal-by-nanite-spheres optional in ISA.
Stop being silly. You are not against this because of trolls, but because you'd suddenly have to do more than mindlessly clicking on buttons.
What you don't seem to realize, or are too stubborn to admit, is that this would be a space born variant of the known cover shield troll tactic on ground maps.
There is simply too much opportunity for abuse.
This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
I'm sure they could differentiate between abilities that were cast before someone was in the area, and abilities that were created when someone was already at the spot where you throw your, say, gravity well.
So I guess this should be interpreted as "Make AoE have friendly fire... except in specific conditions", which pretty much defeats the purpose of the original idea.
Also, this suggestion is "nice" and all, but how about the fact there is a temporal spec tree specialized in having player-generated anomalies follow the player's current target? How about AOEs that do more than dealing damage, that drain shields, confuse, increase cooldowns, disable, prevent fighter launches, stop engines, ruin the perception, or even heal? How about abilities that spread across several targets from the main one on a DoT?
They should have the same effects. I was mentioning 'damage' because it's usually the first thing people consider. But the principle should apply to draining for example as well.
As for the spec tree issue: I'm not thinking that this would be easily implemented. In fact, I don't think it's very likely to be even considered. Just saying that it would be nice and logical to have, in theory. As the 'trolling' issue seems to be the most important one, I mainly focussed on that. But I agree that there's more to consider.
I'll dismiss things I find dismissable. You can do the same and have done so, so why do you complain?
Being on guard about the occasional troll or (more likely) guy-who-is-still-learning is not much. Hell, if trolls were as prevalent in STO as some of you would have us to believe, no one would ever finish the no-heal-by-nanite-spheres optional in ISA.
Stop being silly. You are not against this because of trolls, but because you'd suddenly have to do more than mindlessly clicking on buttons.
The one who is silly is you sophlogimpoo.
Like always. We look at a cutback of roughly 50% of game wide DPS in the upcoming change. One may think that’s enough of an incentive for a scrub like you to be eager to bring in the other 50% to be able to play along. But no, of course not. You rather have the game changed even more until it settles with your own personal scrub idea how it is supposed to work.
You claim to want to have more challenges in STO yet you do nothing more than to point out the easiest maps we have as examples to promote your bad ideas for changes. It’s just as if you don’t play anything else.
We have enough elite maps around which are challenging dependent of the strength of the team you run it with. They are challenging under the current way the game works and will be even more so after the change. We have dozens of channels for team-up with players who every standing and skill. Yet I never see you in any of them.
You either left it all so far behind that this game is indeed too easy for you or you never ever steped out of the two easiest stages we have. In both cases it’s your job to change, not the game and everybody else who runs it.
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[Part of the post breaking forum rules moderated out]
Hate to break it to you superstar, but no one has a hard time playing this game. Your idea wouldn't make the game hard, it would just make it annoying.
I think the idea is much better in theory than it would turn out to be in practice.
It could certainly make things more interesting, especially if implemented on higher difficulty levels.
But at the same time we don't need people in Scimitars going around and 200K dpsing new players just for laughs. If one was purposefully and repeatedly injuring and killing their teammates, there would need to be a policing method for it. The fact that I do not trust that form of a mechanic to work properly, is my primary objection to this.
Without a manner of policing the trolls, friendly fire would just be a bad idea from a game mechanics perspective.
Thanks for the Advanced Light Cruiser, Allied Escort Bundles, Jem-Hadar Light Battlecruiser, and Mek'leth
New Content Wishlist
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Cover shield trolls? The last time I saw that was... what, a year ago? Or two?
When was the last time you saw someone pushing nanite spheres towards the transformator in ISA? When did you last see someone pushing a protomatter bomber towards the allied front in TF?
When was the last time anyone of you actually witnessed all those evil trolls you claim to make up a significant portion of STO's player population?
I mean, seriously, you are laughably inflating the STO troll population.
I have encountered those illustrious cover shield trolls at least 3 times this week alone. They are very active in ground queues.
The bottom line is that allowing friendly fire for weapons or AoE abilities WILL be abused and drain the life various queues.
This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
1. If we care seriously debating this: "Three times in a week" is a useless data point. What was the percentage of troll-infested vs non-infested instances?
2. Are you actually sure they were trolls and not just people using cover shields were you found it hindering?
3. Funny how this does not happen in space queues.
Trying to be edgy or are you really that ignorant?
As for space, the cover shield is an example for the mindset of certain player who thoroughly enjoy hindering other players.
Giving those player a powerful tool is ill advised.
This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
Neverwinter Nights had (has, you can still play it) a mode, Dungeons and Dragons hardcore rules, where friend and foe were affected by AoE damage. You could die by triggering your own trap and you and your buddies could take damage from your mage's fire blast. I have never seen these mechanics in an MMO. So all the nay sayers here have a point. It would make the game, any MMO game, too difficult, I guess.
If we put single target damage against multi target damage, the former should be preferable. I take the following set up. You have five attacks and five targets. Each attacks kills a target, there are no misses. Then we have the multi target setup. One attack, five targets. Each attack takes one fifth of each target. After five attacks all targets are killed. The single attack is better because after the first hit, one target is dead and cannot longer hit you. You take less damage. With the multi target set up, you will take damage from all five targets untill the final hit that kills them all. Also in computer games, an opponent with 1% health can hit you as hard as one with full health.
In this game AoE can rule because enemies do not bite and getting healed or negating incoming damage is easy. I can be wrong since I never did PvP, but from what I read about it, teams used single target skills and focus fire to take the other team out one by one.
But seriously, it's not really worth discussing this further. It's not going to happen, and I think most people have a good understanding of why, and if they don't, it does not really matter, because it's still not going to happen.
Being on guard about the occasional troll or (more likely) guy-who-is-still-learning is not much. Hell, if trolls were as prevalent in STO as some of you would have us to believe, no one would ever finish the no-heal-by-nanite-spheres optional in ISA.
Intentionally failing this objective actually requires some meaningful setup to do so. If you just ignore the nanite spheres, someone else can grav-well and DPS them away. You would need to go out of your way and use tractor beam repulsors or a similar ability to intentionally push them to the position. (And then you still have to hope they're not DPSed away), and people might counter that just by accident.
Changing these powers would suddenly make it almost impossible to avoid negative repercussions for using them. You always risk catching people in your Gravity Well if you use them on targets that the team actually wants to kill. Charged Particle Burst would require you to first ensure no allies are around you, meaning that for some reason, no one considered your targets worth firing on yet. It's impractical.
What was the percentage of troll-infested vs non-infested instances?
2. Are you actually sure they were trolls and not just people using cover shields were you found it hindering?
Is that a real difference? If you can unintentionally do something hindering for a team mate, isn't that even worse?
Your idea has even more potential to create problems by people that aren't even intent on causing trouble.
Thankfully, this isn't going to actually happen anyway, so trying to make the few people that don't see the problems realize that they actually would exist and make the idea unworkable don't really need to be convinced.
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Alright, for the sake of argument, let's leave trolls out for a bit. You only do premades and thus know who you're playing with.
So, you have a Gravity Well that has a range of 12km (it's totally doable if you invest a bit in CtrlX) - everything in your team would start taking damage even if they are not yet capable of firing at the enemies yet. But ok, you're pulled towards enemies, good thing? Nope, one moment you'll find your whole team in the middle of exploding enemies and get killed by Warp Core Breaches.
Still not convinced OP's idea is bad?
You're a drainer, and you have a tank in team. As a drainer, one of your favourite abilities is Tyken's Rift. So, you cast off your Tyken's Rift, but OOPS - your tank wants to get as much aggro as possible (naturally) and flies very close to the enemy. So your tank gets drained empty by your TR, explodes and soon you and other teammates die as well.
Comments
When it comes to the OP and his absurd ideas you might have just given me the explanation I was looking for. Thanks! He either doesn’t understand the concept of trolling at all or he understands it all too well.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
Maybe allied ships should only suffer an x percentage of the original effect (this could be explained by having allied ships' computers coordinate and automatically partially avoid things like GW or TR or defend against it) but there should be some downside to always spamming AoE stuff. Just mindlessly stacking buffs and attacking multiple targets at once shouldn't always be promoted.
If they further gave an option to reflect some of the incoming alllied damage (person A uses AoE ability, person B gets hit and person A suffers some or even more damage as well as a result of this deflection - call it the 'needs of the many' where one incompetent captain suffers from his own actions to avoid further team deaths) that may lower the incentive to just spam these AoE abilities to troll others - as you would also be trolling yourself.
Of course it may be easier to just give enemies the ability to reflect damage more often - that other solution that's come up very often when discussing ways to reign in the supremacy of multi-target/AoE abilities.
It's easy to shoot down suggestions before even thinking of ways how it could be done. That doesn't make others 'stupid'.
I mean look at the effect of a Grav Well; it should pull anything nearby but if we changed it to friendly fire then it's max range would potentially be further than our own weapons ranges, making some engagements almost impossible. How is the team meant to engage within a 10km range if they will get caught in their own team's GW in the process?
Also, a lot of the bonuses for things like traits etc rely on players and enemies being so close as to nearly tough, friendly fire would be a nightmare in that situation.
They'd need to rework the mechanics and ranges of things first to introduce such a system. But i'd not be opposed to it were it done correctly.
after the lost of sarcasm i can say i'm against this "ff on" for AOE abilities.
i know that AOE is the king for pve at the moment, but in most of the mmos it is anyway.
Also, this suggestion is "nice" and all, but how about the fact there is a temporal spec tree specialized in having player-generated anomalies follow the player's current target? How about AOEs that do more than dealing damage, that drain shields, confuse, increase cooldowns, disable, prevent fighter launches, stop engines, ruin the perception, or even heal? How about abilities that spread across several targets from the main one on a DoT?
It's been explained already why this is a bad idea.
I won't bother to explain again since you just dismiss any idea counter to yours anyway. I kinda hope they do take the idea though, it would be funny to watch all team content become totally unplayable as griefers reign supreme.
What you don't seem to realize, or are too stubborn to admit, is that this would be a space born variant of the known cover shield troll tactic on ground maps.
There is simply too much opportunity for abuse.
They should have the same effects. I was mentioning 'damage' because it's usually the first thing people consider. But the principle should apply to draining for example as well.
As for the spec tree issue: I'm not thinking that this would be easily implemented. In fact, I don't think it's very likely to be even considered. Just saying that it would be nice and logical to have, in theory. As the 'trolling' issue seems to be the most important one, I mainly focussed on that. But I agree that there's more to consider.
The one who is silly is you sophlogimpoo.
Like always. We look at a cutback of roughly 50% of game wide DPS in the upcoming change. One may think that’s enough of an incentive for a scrub like you to be eager to bring in the other 50% to be able to play along. But no, of course not. You rather have the game changed even more until it settles with your own personal scrub idea how it is supposed to work.
You claim to want to have more challenges in STO yet you do nothing more than to point out the easiest maps we have as examples to promote your bad ideas for changes. It’s just as if you don’t play anything else.
We have enough elite maps around which are challenging dependent of the strength of the team you run it with. They are challenging under the current way the game works and will be even more so after the change. We have dozens of channels for team-up with players who every standing and skill. Yet I never see you in any of them.
You either left it all so far behind that this game is indeed too easy for you or you never ever steped out of the two easiest stages we have. In both cases it’s your job to change, not the game and everybody else who runs it.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
Hate to break it to you superstar, but no one has a hard time playing this game. Your idea wouldn't make the game hard, it would just make it annoying.
It could certainly make things more interesting, especially if implemented on higher difficulty levels.
But at the same time we don't need people in Scimitars going around and 200K dpsing new players just for laughs. If one was purposefully and repeatedly injuring and killing their teammates, there would need to be a policing method for it. The fact that I do not trust that form of a mechanic to work properly, is my primary objection to this.
Without a manner of policing the trolls, friendly fire would just be a bad idea from a game mechanics perspective.
I have encountered those illustrious cover shield trolls at least 3 times this week alone. They are very active in ground queues.
The bottom line is that allowing friendly fire for weapons or AoE abilities WILL be abused and drain the life various queues.
Trying to be edgy or are you really that ignorant?
As for space, the cover shield is an example for the mindset of certain player who thoroughly enjoy hindering other players.
Giving those player a powerful tool is ill advised.
If we put single target damage against multi target damage, the former should be preferable. I take the following set up. You have five attacks and five targets. Each attacks kills a target, there are no misses. Then we have the multi target setup. One attack, five targets. Each attack takes one fifth of each target. After five attacks all targets are killed. The single attack is better because after the first hit, one target is dead and cannot longer hit you. You take less damage. With the multi target set up, you will take damage from all five targets untill the final hit that kills them all. Also in computer games, an opponent with 1% health can hit you as hard as one with full health.
In this game AoE can rule because enemies do not bite and getting healed or negating incoming damage is easy. I can be wrong since I never did PvP, but from what I read about it, teams used single target skills and focus fire to take the other team out one by one.
But seriously, it's not really worth discussing this further. It's not going to happen, and I think most people have a good understanding of why, and if they don't, it does not really matter, because it's still not going to happen.
Intentionally failing this objective actually requires some meaningful setup to do so. If you just ignore the nanite spheres, someone else can grav-well and DPS them away. You would need to go out of your way and use tractor beam repulsors or a similar ability to intentionally push them to the position. (And then you still have to hope they're not DPSed away), and people might counter that just by accident.
Changing these powers would suddenly make it almost impossible to avoid negative repercussions for using them. You always risk catching people in your Gravity Well if you use them on targets that the team actually wants to kill. Charged Particle Burst would require you to first ensure no allies are around you, meaning that for some reason, no one considered your targets worth firing on yet. It's impractical.
Is that a real difference? If you can unintentionally do something hindering for a team mate, isn't that even worse?
Your idea has even more potential to create problems by people that aren't even intent on causing trouble.
Thankfully, this isn't going to actually happen anyway, so trying to make the few people that don't see the problems realize that they actually would exist and make the idea unworkable don't really need to be convinced.
So, you have a Gravity Well that has a range of 12km (it's totally doable if you invest a bit in CtrlX) - everything in your team would start taking damage even if they are not yet capable of firing at the enemies yet. But ok, you're pulled towards enemies, good thing? Nope, one moment you'll find your whole team in the middle of exploding enemies and get killed by Warp Core Breaches.
Still not convinced OP's idea is bad?
You're a drainer, and you have a tank in team. As a drainer, one of your favourite abilities is Tyken's Rift. So, you cast off your Tyken's Rift, but OOPS - your tank wants to get as much aggro as possible (naturally) and flies very close to the enemy. So your tank gets drained empty by your TR, explodes and soon you and other teammates die as well.
Is this the game you want?
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