Them being changed to per shot was one of the main reasons they were OP to begin with. Prior to the Tribble change they had a chance to proc the shield bypassing damage every single shot for massive damage. They're far more balanced now than they ever were previously.
and them being changed to per-shot is also what made turret builds barely-competitive
utterly destroying one type of build in the process of balancing another is NOT and NEVER WILL BE acceptable
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Them being changed to per shot was one of the main reasons they were OP to begin with. Prior to the Tribble change they had a chance to proc the shield bypassing damage every single shot for massive damage. They're far more balanced now than they ever were previously.
and them being changed to per-shot is also what made turret builds barely-competitive
utterly destroying one type of build in the process of balancing another is NOT and NEVER WILL BE acceptable
This cannon-plasmaproc build was just too OP.In the Meta the most common builds was with plasmaproc.I know from a fleetmember that only run with cannon(rapid) and plasmaproc and kill everything.
They can let the damage and make only the chanche to trigger(plasmaproc) once per cycle.I can't see the sense that a science console make more damage then a tac console...
But i loved this chance:
The healing proc found on Shield-Repairing and Hull-Repairing Weapon Signature Amplifiers and Nullifiers once again has a 2.5% chance to proc.
They still do not have a lockout.
With this you can tank a lot of more
Them being changed to per shot was one of the main reasons they were OP to begin with. Prior to the Tribble change they had a chance to proc the shield bypassing damage every single shot for massive damage. They're far more balanced now than they ever were previously.
and them being changed to per-shot is also what made turret builds barely-competitive
utterly destroying one type of build in the process of balancing another is NOT and NEVER WILL BE acceptable
Maybe if the worth of an entire build depends of the behavior of the tertiary effect from a console, it's not a robust build type?
That, or it's hyperbole that it's been 'utterly destroyed'. Was such a build even ever more than a curiosity? Don't you still gain the general advantage of trading damage for firing arc?
I'm not against them nerfing the plasma consoles, but there is a happy medium between making them useless and promoting diversity. It would be nice if they could find that line rather then just nerf them into oblivion.
Totally agree with this sentiment. However that line might be considerably lower than what you're happy with. And probably should be low enough that the aggro manipulation is the main point and principle value of these consoles, not the damage proc. I'm happy to see less shield penetration almost anywhere in the game (its a mechanic that's run amok IMO). Whether the new damage is the right damage for the Dev's goals, I can't say. But if the damage is high enough its desirable/meta to stack them for damage rather than aggro manipulation, then it's probably too high. If they were unique, then I'm sure the damage could be much higher without setting off alarm bells.
^ Agreed
The new values for the proc damage seem to be about half of what they are on Holodeck, so if they're per cyle and half strength, that's what, 1/10 of the current efficacy? Assuming that approximation, that takes my main's 20k-30k down to 2-3k. Which seems fine for a tertiary effect, on top of +/- Th, sci stats, and buffs to plasma exotic.
To quote your own words "Increase the fun – Games are about having fun, and players should not be made to feel that their fun is "wrong.”" In this quote you said our fun should not feel wrong but in reality you killed my build.
What they meant to say is that your fun is wrong and the current meta being used by a lot of the dpsers is wrong. Destroying this meta will increase the fun.
More along the lines of 'making this single meta less universally attractive means more players will be able to feel that their builds are useful, or at least that experimenting is not a detriment'. How is this equating to "your fun is wrong?" I've only adopted the meta myself because the kind of fun I want to be having and kinds of things I want to try are considered wrong, or at least inefficient.
Will we see increased stats to other non carrier pets like saucers, command platforms, multi vector sections also? They all seem a little underpowered.
I really hope they did not buff the plasma consoles much. I had high hopes we were going to see some diversity in some high end builds place of auto cramming the same old same old in every sci console slot. If it is a must have then it needs to be nerfed. BTW they are sci consoles. Their primary purpose should be science, which they are good at. Any damage they do should be incidental. These are the equivalent of a tac console creating a gw and tkr with every activation on top of the weapon damage and crit increases they currently have.
So much this. I was really liking the direction the rebalance was going by fixing an obnoxiously potent mechanic from a state of "use only this" to "other options now available". The sheer amount of outcry over these consoles is evidence that they were the focus of too many builds obtaining almost mythical status. No single item should be that "must-have" for literally almost any build.
Please cryptic, don't bow to forum pressure and "increase" them any more - there are many players who are seriously excited about the diversity that will now be seen.
I've seen a lot of people come and go because of how unbalanced and broken things currently are on Holodeck. I'm excited not only for the diversity we will see in builds, but also for the new players with fully tricked out builds that get vaped before they can even activate a power because they don't have all of the inside knowledge about what actually works as indicated in-game, what doesn't, and what's overpowered. It will be nice to not have to explain to these new players that they aren't dumb, so that they don't give up and leave.
I really hope they did not buff the plasma consoles much. I had high hopes we were going to see some diversity in some high end builds place of auto cramming the same old same old in every sci console slot. If it is a must have then it needs to be nerfed. BTW they are sci consoles. Their primary purpose should be science, which they are good at. Any damage they do should be incidental. These are the equivalent of a tac console creating a gw and tkr with every activation on top of the weapon damage and crit increases they currently have.
So much this. I was really liking the direction the rebalance was going by fixing an obnoxiously potent mechanic from a state of "use only this" to "other options now available". The sheer amount of outcry over these consoles is evidence that they were the focus of too many builds obtaining almost mythical status. No single item should be that "must-have" for literally almost any build.
Please cryptic, don't bow to forum pressure and "increase" them any more - there are many players who are seriously excited about the diversity that will now be seen.
I've seen a lot of people come and go because of how unbalanced and broken things currently are on Holodeck. I'm excited not only for the diversity will we see in builds, but also for the new players with fully tricked out builds that get vaped before they can even activate a power because they don't have all of the inside knowledge about what actually works as indicated in-game, what doesn't, and what's overpowered. It will be nice to not have to explain to these new players that they aren't dumb, so that they don't give up and leave.
Very nicely put. Not everyone is going to agree with all the changes but people will adapt. Change is a part of life (and gaming).
Since you brought up the word "broken" - I just came out of a CCA on Holodeck that made me shake my head (not the first time to be sure). Two of the players parsed well over 200K each. It was over in 22 seconds. Four people out of the queue barely had time to get into the match and it was over. I was lucky I managed to get what I did. The others? Probably AFK bans. Broken? Yeah...kinda.
Hmmm...people still complaining about the literal term of fun. Some people still think AFK'ing is fun too!! Maybe Cryptic should abandon all AFK and Leaver's penalties too if people want ALL types of fun to be included!
"You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
Will we see increased stats to other non carrier pets like saucers, command platforms, multi vector sections also? They all seem a little underpowered.
Not yet.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
So running a few Tribble ISA runs last night, some feedback I hope @crypticspartan#0627 would consider based on my initial impressions:
The gap between Sci captains and Tac captains are closer than before when said Sci captains are running exotic builds while Tac captains are running weapons-focused builds. This is good. Tacs are still slightly ahead, but they are close.
SSV and GW might need to be knocked down a bit (which I know will happen given the Aux scaling issues found).
DRB needs to be raised a bit. The current Tribble build has my damage focused too heavily towards GW and SSV. I'd like TBR and DRB to move up a bit so that the damage between abilities are evened out a bit. Bringing down SSV and GW without scaling up DRB and TBR will bring down exotic builds a bit much, so some middle ground needs to be found. Remember, these are still high CD abilities, so they should still be pretty potent.
Heals are a bit weak on this iteration. I think active heals need to be scaled back up a bit.
I'm still on the fence on Deflector Overcharge. Will test more.
I hope in the end we heavy EPG users won't get gimped too much. I think we're pretty close to a good level of overall DPS. It takes a fair amount of build specialization to get these builds right, so I hope we don't go too far down the ladder.
I'm not against them nerfing the plasma consoles, but there is a happy medium between making them useless and promoting diversity. It would be nice if they could find that line rather then just nerf them into oblivion.
Totally agree with this sentiment. However that line might be considerably lower than what you're happy with. And probably should be low enough that the aggro manipulation is the main point and principle value of these consoles, not the damage proc. I'm happy to see less shield penetration almost anywhere in the game (its a mechanic that's run amok IMO). Whether the new damage is the right damage for the Dev's goals, I can't say. But if the damage is high enough its desirable/meta to stack them for damage rather than aggro manipulation, then it's probably too high. If they were unique, then I'm sure the damage could be much higher without setting off alarm bells.
I agree with you. There is a lot of shield penetration, arguably too much. You can really see it in PvP. The problem IMO isn't from a single console or ability, but when all these consoles and abilities get stacked on each other. Another option for the embassy consoles could be to only allow one per ship. That would, of course, cause other problems though. People looking to increase or lower threat wouldn't be able to stack the consoles for that or for their sci stats. Lowering their damage does seems to be the best solution considering the alternatives.
To quote your own words "Increase the fun – Games are about having fun, and players should not be made to feel that their fun is "wrong.”" In this quote you said our fun should not feel wrong but in reality you killed my build.
What they meant to say is that your fun is wrong and the current meta being used by a lot of the dpsers is wrong. Destroying this meta will increase the fun.
More along the lines of 'making this single meta less universally attractive means more players will be able to feel that their builds are useful, or at least that experimenting is not a detriment'.
That's a rainbows and lollypops way to look at it. There will be a new meta once this balance pass goes live and those who don't conform to the new meta will still end up in the same boat they are in now. I just don't really see it changing anything for those players. I mean some of the buffs might help, but the nerfs will probably balance those buffs to a net gain of nothing.
I'm not exactly part of the meta myself. I still use a2b and am running all turrets with scatter volley, but at the same time I use plasmonic leech, I use romulan embassy consoles...etc. I use the parts of the meta I want so that I can be an effective while also changing it up enough to make it fun for me. My build never felt wrong until after this balance pass testing got going on tribble and people on the forums were celebrating the death of my build and telling me I was playing wrong.
I'm still on the fence on Deflector Overcharge. Will test more.
Why exactly are you on the fence? Weak as heck?
It's actually pretty good for my chosen direction in Science (EPG). On a non Temporal build though, it's a bit "peaky" since you technically get to use it only for one round of sci abilities (due to CDs). So getting the timing right is absolutely needed. But it is tough to line-up all those sci CDs on how fast ISAs run in Tribble (sub 2-minute). A Temporal build may get a few more shots in via Entropic Redistribution and Channeled Deconstruction in addition to the usual Sci damage abilities.
Part of why I am on the fence regarding this is that it's really going to push Sci captains into more Sci-heavy ships. I can see how that can be a problem down the line for that class.
That's a rainbows and lollypops way to look at it. There will be a new meta once this balance pass goes live and those who don't conform to the new meta will still end up in the same boat they are in now. I just don't really see it changing anything for those players. I mean some of the buffs might help, but the nerfs will probably balance those buffs to a net gain of nothing.
I'm not exactly part of the meta myself. I still use a2b and am running all turrets with scatter volley, but at the same time I use plasmonic leech, I use romulan embassy consoles...etc. I use the parts of the meta I want so that I can be an effective while also changing it up enough to make it fun for me. My build never felt wrong until after this balance pass testing got going on tribble and people on the forums were celebrating the death of my build and telling me I was playing wrong.
Well darn, forum ate my first response, it seems.
Rainbows and lollipops as it may be, I'll take that over the alternative . It's a false equivalency to say that just because some aspects of your build have seen large changes (so far), that that's the same as 'you're playing wrong'. Sure, people are celebrating (and in equal or greater measure decrying) the changes to stuff like fbp, leech, and exploders, but those were changed because they were must-haves and dominated discussion of how to build an effective ship, not because of any animus toward the people using them.
How many players now (and an entire career, to some degree) are told that they're playing wrong if they don't adopt at least some parts of the meta? Is that not as bad for the game as a whole as when a single archetype gets adjusted in the kind of rebalancing that should be more routine?
That's a rainbows and lollypops way to look at it. There will be a new meta once this balance pass goes live and those who don't conform to the new meta will still end up in the same boat they are in now.
The goal is not and never was to have no meta. Balance -- comparable performance from comparable choices -- can move towards better without be perfect. Saying "we shouldn't change anything because we can't have perfect" isn't a real compelling argument to people trying to work towards better.
Personally I'm happy to see the plasma exploders come up some from their initial ruination. I'd really like to see their weird and misleading bonus to exotic plasma damage looked at instead of all the focus being on the damage proc. Its affects so few things while giving the impression it helps its own proc (plasma and plasma... you'd think there was some synergy there...). If that part of the console's benefits could be made more generally useful, I think the consoles could see more use without having to dial the damage back up.
On the other hand I'm not thrilled to see the Plasmonic Leech growing back into the "Duh, if you have one, you WILL be equipping it" class again. That thing's been a blight on the game for years, and the only thing that's helped prior to this is the price tanking as a result of the infinity boxes. At least then everyone could afford to pay the 'console tax' this item creates.
The Plasmonic Leech self-buff now stacks with the Power Conduit Link proc found on the M.A.C.O. Resilient Shield Array and Adapted K.H.G. Resilient Shield Array
I know that Drain Expertise doesn't work with Plasmonic Leech anymore, but does it still affect the MACO shield's Power Conduit Link buff?
That's a rainbows and lollypops way to look at it. There will be a new meta once this balance pass goes live and those who don't conform to the new meta will still end up in the same boat they are in now. I just don't really see it changing anything for those players. I mean some of the buffs might help, but the nerfs will probably balance those buffs to a net gain of nothing.
I'm not exactly part of the meta myself. I still use a2b and am running all turrets with scatter volley, but at the same time I use plasmonic leech, I use romulan embassy consoles...etc. I use the parts of the meta I want so that I can be an effective while also changing it up enough to make it fun for me. My build never felt wrong until after this balance pass testing got going on tribble and people on the forums were celebrating the death of my build and telling me I was playing wrong.
One doesn't need to have a build that is "meta" to be able to deal damage or to do work in the game. There's plenty of ways you can deal great damage in the game and will still be able to do so even after the changes. There's always going to be stuff folks consider to be "meta" as that typically comes with the territory of mmos. I've played as a tank since before the feedback tanking was a thing and will continue to do so after because it's what I enjoy doing in game.
The changes have NEVER been about telling folks that they're playing wrong. Statements that suggest otherwise are flat out lies. The changes to some of these things was done to address the severe powercreep in game caused by several abilities in particular. In any mmo when certain items get to the point that they're the answer for everything, then you've got a problem. Leech and the Plasma exploders from the embassy have been that way for years. It was to the point that they were the only things you saw people recommending in 99% of cases. When it gets to the point of "equip this on all your builds no matter what or you're an idiot" then it's time for that item to be nerfed.
Plasma Exploders: these were nerfed once already several years ago because they were way too powerful even then. the very first time they were nerfed was due to "plasma doping" as it was called back then. Before the first pass on the consoles it used to be they could be buffed with +beam damage consoles and if you could fit 5 of them on your ship, you could essentially have 8 tactical consoles. Of course that had to be removed as it was way too powerful. The way they are currently was the next step and it did reduce the problem a good bit but it didn't go far enough. The shield bypass they did along with an explosion potentially ever single shot was still way too strong. I used the things and I admit they were still way too strong. The changes made to them on Tribble were the only way you were going to see them finally get put into a place where they're not stupidly OP.
Feedback Pulse: This one has needed nerfed for years as it should never have been allowed to get that strong to start with. When you can pretty much one shot some of the heavier ships in one go for literal millions of health as quite a few of us have seen at one point or another, you have to expect that's not intended. When a person can go into a run and do 600k or so and at least 250k of that is feedback pulse, yeah that's not intended and needs to be nerfed. No single ability on its own should ever be worth that amount of damage.
Plasmonic Leech: I'm glad to see this one get changed to being not required. Until the Infinity Box if you didn't shell out some 100m+ for the thing you were pretty much screwed in that aspect. For years folks have been harping on the Leech to the point that it got ridiculous and became another of those "if you don't use this you're an idiot" type of things. When you can equip one console and pretty much never drop below 125 in all 4 systems, that's ridiculously OP. While I don't agree with all of Spartan's logic behind the change I at least understand why they're doing it and agree it was needed. Leech has needed changes for years. This was also a major console that kept alot of folks away from playing the game or trying to improve their builds very much. why would they try when alot of the average playerbase couldn't afford it unless they dropped a good bit of cash on the game to get it. Honestly who could blame them. I may cough up a bit of cash for a ship, but for just one copy of a console, not so much.
It sucks yes to see some of the abilities you used get nerfed but overall I would rather deal with a few nerfed abilities and have a better game.
Personally I'm happy to see the plasma exploders come up some from their initial ruination. I'd really like to see their weird and misleading bonus to exotic plasma damage looked at instead of all the focus being on the damage proc. Its affects so few things while giving the impression it helps its own proc (plasma and plasma... you'd think there was some synergy there...). If that part of the console's benefits could be made more generally useful, I think the consoles could see more use without having to dial the damage back up.
On the other hand I'm not thrilled to see the Plasmonic Leech growing back into the "Duh, if you have one, you WILL be equipping it" class again. That thing's been a blight on the game for years, and the only thing that's helped prior to this is the price tanking as a result of the infinity boxes. At least then everyone could afford to pay the 'console tax' this item creates.
Plasma exploders don't need to move from where they are now with the damage being dialed back up a bit. them having high damage and some of the other things they did was the main reason they got hit to start with and rightfully so.
For the leech getting a slight rebuff, it's that huge of a difference. In terms of what it gives you, we're talking roughly 6 additional power across all 4 systems, which isn't that huge of a bonus. it's nice sure but imo isn't enough to call it a "duh" console again. it's a nice little bonus now but there's alot better that can be used in its place.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
That's a rainbows and lollypops way to look at it. There will be a new meta once this balance pass goes live and those who don't conform to the new meta will still end up in the same boat they are in now.
The goal is not and never was to have no meta. Balance -- comparable performance from comparable choices -- can move towards better without be perfect. Saying "we shouldn't change anything because we can't have perfect" isn't a real compelling argument to people trying to work towards better.
I realize the goal of the balance pass isn't to have "no meta" but it's pretty clear, I think you would agree, that cryptic wants to end the current one? This balance pass is going after the most used skills, items and traits. I'm not speaking about the merit of these nerfs just that they have clearly gone after the status quo.
I'm not saying we shouldn't change anything because it won't be perfect, but I don't like seeing really heavy handed nerfs to commonly used skills and items. I just really hope a happy medium can be found. So far some of the changes I'm fine with, even those that will affect me, others not so much.
- Aceton beam and photonic shockwave have increased damage, with is good, and may result in these skills actually being used to some extend.
- Beam Overload
Personally, I would leave Beam Overload exactly where it is on the live server. A lot of people have invested into CritD mods for their beams, and I think it would help existing player investment to leave the skill where it is.
In addition, one can create a new Beam skill with exactly the functionality of the new Beam Overload, that it buffs beam weapons for a duration. The game can use additional skills, and this would be a useful one, complementary to the old Beam overload.
- Beam Fire at will:
I can see the point in adding an accuracy penality to it, however I would reduce the overall values of that penality. A lot of people have existing weapons with e.g. Dmgx3 CritD from the fleet, or CritDx4 on which they spent a lot of ressources. The new Beam Fire at will makes them less useful, and pushes them into re-creating their weapons with Acc mods, which can be costly. For the sake of player investment, and also buffing up the usefulness of Acc modifier, leave the penalty on FAW, but reduce its harshness.
- Torpedo High Yield:
There should be a stronger inclination to actually use it for a single target. According to OdenKnight, Torpedo Spread still has higher DPS on a SINGLE target than High Yield on the Holodeck, and I haven't seen any changes on tribble that seem to fix it. I would give High Yield a better selling point, e.g. fire two torps with +20% increased Dmg or whatever for High Yield One etc..
- Override Subsystem safeties
I can see the point in the Devs not wanting e.g. the Iconian set to completely automatically negate the negative effects on that skill of a random subsystem going offline.
However, right now the negative effects on Tribble are so strong and cannot be negated, which kills the skill for many people, including me. Especially in Escorts and Science vessels, think of your shields going offline in a bad moment, or being in the perfect firespot but your weapons going offline. OSS is currently the most useful espionage skill, and this change will make a lot of people simply throw it out of their build, which greatly reduces the whole selling point for espionage vessels.
My suggestion is: remove auto-removal, but allow the player to remove it with an engineering team, perhaps after one or two seconds of it being applied. In this way the player has to be active and time his skill usage, and can still suffer the negative effects if he does nothing. However, he has a chance to counter it if it is really needed. This can prevent either unnecessary deaths or the skill not being used at all, which are the current choices the player has with OSS in its current state on tribble.
- Artillery bombardment:
The skill was useless before the tribble patch, and although damage in the tribble patch was buffed, the combination of long cooldown and weak damage still makes it rather useless. Part of the problem is kinetic damage being used (which is useless as long as the shields of the target are still there), part of the problem is the low damage, part is the long cooldown. Perhaps change damage type to two Defaints firing cannon salvos instead (and renaming the skill), and increase Dmg and reduce cooldowns to be more useful.
- In general, a lot of the command and espionage skills are rather useless, and one should re-evaluate them, perhaps in a separate balance round.
- Plasmonic Leech:
The Devs seem to be valuing energy system increases differently from the player.
Dev: "This console gives you +2 to all your subsystem power levels. +2! Isn't that great?"
Player: "Em, no."
The point is: Increases in subsystem power level ARE BEING FELT by the player only if they are much larger. +2 doesn't make a difference how the ship feels. +20 or +30 much more so. Putting the old Plasmonic leech on a ship had a very recognizable effect. +6 to all subsystem power not so much, to the point that players will throw the Leech out of their build and replace it with something differently. In this case, existing player investment was changed from: "very useful" to "not worth using at all". As I said, players and devs may evaluate that usefulness differently.
I can see that the old leech was "too strong", however the new leech, even after upgrading it to 7.5 all subsystem power, still feels "too weak". Perhaps +10 or +15 might be a good compromise and balance to old values. One can now use it with the Maco shield, but one has to be careful not to create a new "Must have" here: "Oh, if you want subsystem power, you "must have" leech + maco shield". So I'd vote for the leech being increased in usefulness a bit higher than it is currently on tribble (+7.5).
- In general, I can suggest to the Devs to start some new chars and level them up on tribble to level 60, and in the process intentionally do some stupid things new players tend to do: use rainbow builds, slot a +polaron damage resistance console and then fight enemies with disruptor damage, use all of your science slots on a science ship with + shield regen consoles instead of epg or use all control consoles and then only use drain skills etc..
In this way one can see how "robust" these balance changes are to players doing stupid things. Right now, the game is very forgiving to such early-game errors. It is "easy to play, hard to master". I think it should be tested how much this statement remains after the balance changes.
Also, to see the overall effect on random PUG STFs on both normal and advanced, a lot more testing will need to be done, I don't think the effects can be judged already.
A zero cost way for Cryptic to finance and expand the foundry
Comments
Ok Now
4 x Spiral Wave Disruptor Beams
5 mins PVP 1vs1
autofire
800 hits
no proc !!!!
Combatlog
RAW TEXT
https://nopaste.me/view/3a53a039
Complete Log To Download
http://www.file-upload.net/download-12390455/Combatlog_2017-03-22_10-00-00.Log.html
Sorry for the first part of the log its german but only few seconds after this i have run the client in english !
and them being changed to per-shot is also what made turret builds barely-competitive
utterly destroying one type of build in the process of balancing another is NOT and NEVER WILL BE acceptable
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
They can let the damage and make only the chanche to trigger(plasmaproc) once per cycle.I can't see the sense that a science console make more damage then a tac console...
But i loved this chance:
The healing proc found on Shield-Repairing and Hull-Repairing Weapon Signature Amplifiers and Nullifiers once again has a 2.5% chance to proc.
They still do not have a lockout.
With this you can tank a lot of more
Maybe if the worth of an entire build depends of the behavior of the tertiary effect from a console, it's not a robust build type?
That, or it's hyperbole that it's been 'utterly destroyed'. Was such a build even ever more than a curiosity? Don't you still gain the general advantage of trading damage for firing arc?
^ Agreed
The new values for the proc damage seem to be about half of what they are on Holodeck, so if they're per cyle and half strength, that's what, 1/10 of the current efficacy? Assuming that approximation, that takes my main's 20k-30k down to 2-3k. Which seems fine for a tertiary effect, on top of +/- Th, sci stats, and buffs to plasma exotic.
More along the lines of 'making this single meta less universally attractive means more players will be able to feel that their builds are useful, or at least that experimenting is not a detriment'. How is this equating to "your fun is wrong?" I've only adopted the meta myself because the kind of fun I want to be having and kinds of things I want to try are considered wrong, or at least inefficient.
I've seen a lot of people come and go because of how unbalanced and broken things currently are on Holodeck. I'm excited not only for the diversity we will see in builds, but also for the new players with fully tricked out builds that get vaped before they can even activate a power because they don't have all of the inside knowledge about what actually works as indicated in-game, what doesn't, and what's overpowered. It will be nice to not have to explain to these new players that they aren't dumb, so that they don't give up and leave.
Very nicely put. Not everyone is going to agree with all the changes but people will adapt. Change is a part of life (and gaming).
Since you brought up the word "broken" - I just came out of a CCA on Holodeck that made me shake my head (not the first time to be sure). Two of the players parsed well over 200K each. It was over in 22 seconds. Four people out of the queue barely had time to get into the match and it was over. I was lucky I managed to get what I did. The others? Probably AFK bans. Broken? Yeah...kinda.
I hope in the end we heavy EPG users won't get gimped too much. I think we're pretty close to a good level of overall DPS. It takes a fair amount of build specialization to get these builds right, so I hope we don't go too far down the ladder.
| USS Curiosity - Pathfinder | USS Rift - Eternal |
The Science Ship Build Thread - Share your Sci Ship builds here!
Why exactly are you on the fence? Weak as heck?
I agree with you. There is a lot of shield penetration, arguably too much. You can really see it in PvP. The problem IMO isn't from a single console or ability, but when all these consoles and abilities get stacked on each other. Another option for the embassy consoles could be to only allow one per ship. That would, of course, cause other problems though. People looking to increase or lower threat wouldn't be able to stack the consoles for that or for their sci stats. Lowering their damage does seems to be the best solution considering the alternatives.
That's a rainbows and lollypops way to look at it. There will be a new meta once this balance pass goes live and those who don't conform to the new meta will still end up in the same boat they are in now. I just don't really see it changing anything for those players. I mean some of the buffs might help, but the nerfs will probably balance those buffs to a net gain of nothing.
I'm not exactly part of the meta myself. I still use a2b and am running all turrets with scatter volley, but at the same time I use plasmonic leech, I use romulan embassy consoles...etc. I use the parts of the meta I want so that I can be an effective while also changing it up enough to make it fun for me. My build never felt wrong until after this balance pass testing got going on tribble and people on the forums were celebrating the death of my build and telling me I was playing wrong.
It's actually pretty good for my chosen direction in Science (EPG). On a non Temporal build though, it's a bit "peaky" since you technically get to use it only for one round of sci abilities (due to CDs). So getting the timing right is absolutely needed. But it is tough to line-up all those sci CDs on how fast ISAs run in Tribble (sub 2-minute). A Temporal build may get a few more shots in via Entropic Redistribution and Channeled Deconstruction in addition to the usual Sci damage abilities.
Part of why I am on the fence regarding this is that it's really going to push Sci captains into more Sci-heavy ships. I can see how that can be a problem down the line for that class.
| USS Curiosity - Pathfinder | USS Rift - Eternal |
The Science Ship Build Thread - Share your Sci Ship builds here!
Well darn, forum ate my first response, it seems.
Rainbows and lollipops as it may be, I'll take that over the alternative
How many players now (and an entire career, to some degree) are told that they're playing wrong if they don't adopt at least some parts of the meta? Is that not as bad for the game as a whole as when a single archetype gets adjusted in the kind of rebalancing that should be more routine?
The goal is not and never was to have no meta. Balance -- comparable performance from comparable choices -- can move towards better without be perfect. Saying "we shouldn't change anything because we can't have perfect" isn't a real compelling argument to people trying to work towards better.
Personally I'm happy to see the plasma exploders come up some from their initial ruination. I'd really like to see their weird and misleading bonus to exotic plasma damage looked at instead of all the focus being on the damage proc. Its affects so few things while giving the impression it helps its own proc (plasma and plasma... you'd think there was some synergy there...). If that part of the console's benefits could be made more generally useful, I think the consoles could see more use without having to dial the damage back up.
On the other hand I'm not thrilled to see the Plasmonic Leech growing back into the "Duh, if you have one, you WILL be equipping it" class again. That thing's been a blight on the game for years, and the only thing that's helped prior to this is the price tanking as a result of the infinity boxes. At least then everyone could afford to pay the 'console tax' this item creates.
I know that Drain Expertise doesn't work with Plasmonic Leech anymore, but does it still affect the MACO shield's Power Conduit Link buff?
Commanding Officer: Captain Pyotr Ramonovich Amosov
Dedication Plaque: "Nil Intentatum Reliquit"
One doesn't need to have a build that is "meta" to be able to deal damage or to do work in the game. There's plenty of ways you can deal great damage in the game and will still be able to do so even after the changes. There's always going to be stuff folks consider to be "meta" as that typically comes with the territory of mmos. I've played as a tank since before the feedback tanking was a thing and will continue to do so after because it's what I enjoy doing in game.
The changes have NEVER been about telling folks that they're playing wrong. Statements that suggest otherwise are flat out lies. The changes to some of these things was done to address the severe powercreep in game caused by several abilities in particular. In any mmo when certain items get to the point that they're the answer for everything, then you've got a problem. Leech and the Plasma exploders from the embassy have been that way for years. It was to the point that they were the only things you saw people recommending in 99% of cases. When it gets to the point of "equip this on all your builds no matter what or you're an idiot" then it's time for that item to be nerfed.
Plasma Exploders: these were nerfed once already several years ago because they were way too powerful even then. the very first time they were nerfed was due to "plasma doping" as it was called back then. Before the first pass on the consoles it used to be they could be buffed with +beam damage consoles and if you could fit 5 of them on your ship, you could essentially have 8 tactical consoles. Of course that had to be removed as it was way too powerful. The way they are currently was the next step and it did reduce the problem a good bit but it didn't go far enough. The shield bypass they did along with an explosion potentially ever single shot was still way too strong. I used the things and I admit they were still way too strong. The changes made to them on Tribble were the only way you were going to see them finally get put into a place where they're not stupidly OP.
Feedback Pulse: This one has needed nerfed for years as it should never have been allowed to get that strong to start with. When you can pretty much one shot some of the heavier ships in one go for literal millions of health as quite a few of us have seen at one point or another, you have to expect that's not intended. When a person can go into a run and do 600k or so and at least 250k of that is feedback pulse, yeah that's not intended and needs to be nerfed. No single ability on its own should ever be worth that amount of damage.
Plasmonic Leech: I'm glad to see this one get changed to being not required. Until the Infinity Box if you didn't shell out some 100m+ for the thing you were pretty much screwed in that aspect. For years folks have been harping on the Leech to the point that it got ridiculous and became another of those "if you don't use this you're an idiot" type of things. When you can equip one console and pretty much never drop below 125 in all 4 systems, that's ridiculously OP. While I don't agree with all of Spartan's logic behind the change I at least understand why they're doing it and agree it was needed. Leech has needed changes for years. This was also a major console that kept alot of folks away from playing the game or trying to improve their builds very much. why would they try when alot of the average playerbase couldn't afford it unless they dropped a good bit of cash on the game to get it. Honestly who could blame them. I may cough up a bit of cash for a ship, but for just one copy of a console, not so much.
It sucks yes to see some of the abilities you used get nerfed but overall I would rather deal with a few nerfed abilities and have a better game.
Plasma exploders don't need to move from where they are now with the damage being dialed back up a bit. them having high damage and some of the other things they did was the main reason they got hit to start with and rightfully so.
For the leech getting a slight rebuff, it's that huge of a difference. In terms of what it gives you, we're talking roughly 6 additional power across all 4 systems, which isn't that huge of a bonus. it's nice sure but imo isn't enough to call it a "duh" console again. it's a nice little bonus now but there's alot better that can be used in its place.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
I realize the goal of the balance pass isn't to have "no meta" but it's pretty clear, I think you would agree, that cryptic wants to end the current one? This balance pass is going after the most used skills, items and traits. I'm not speaking about the merit of these nerfs just that they have clearly gone after the status quo.
I'm not saying we shouldn't change anything because it won't be perfect, but I don't like seeing really heavy handed nerfs to commonly used skills and items. I just really hope a happy medium can be found. So far some of the changes I'm fine with, even those that will affect me, others not so much.
- Beam Overload
Personally, I would leave Beam Overload exactly where it is on the live server. A lot of people have invested into CritD mods for their beams, and I think it would help existing player investment to leave the skill where it is.
In addition, one can create a new Beam skill with exactly the functionality of the new Beam Overload, that it buffs beam weapons for a duration. The game can use additional skills, and this would be a useful one, complementary to the old Beam overload.
- Beam Fire at will:
I can see the point in adding an accuracy penality to it, however I would reduce the overall values of that penality. A lot of people have existing weapons with e.g. Dmgx3 CritD from the fleet, or CritDx4 on which they spent a lot of ressources. The new Beam Fire at will makes them less useful, and pushes them into re-creating their weapons with Acc mods, which can be costly. For the sake of player investment, and also buffing up the usefulness of Acc modifier, leave the penalty on FAW, but reduce its harshness.
- Torpedo High Yield:
There should be a stronger inclination to actually use it for a single target. According to OdenKnight, Torpedo Spread still has higher DPS on a SINGLE target than High Yield on the Holodeck, and I haven't seen any changes on tribble that seem to fix it. I would give High Yield a better selling point, e.g. fire two torps with +20% increased Dmg or whatever for High Yield One etc..
- Override Subsystem safeties
I can see the point in the Devs not wanting e.g. the Iconian set to completely automatically negate the negative effects on that skill of a random subsystem going offline.
However, right now the negative effects on Tribble are so strong and cannot be negated, which kills the skill for many people, including me. Especially in Escorts and Science vessels, think of your shields going offline in a bad moment, or being in the perfect firespot but your weapons going offline. OSS is currently the most useful espionage skill, and this change will make a lot of people simply throw it out of their build, which greatly reduces the whole selling point for espionage vessels.
My suggestion is: remove auto-removal, but allow the player to remove it with an engineering team, perhaps after one or two seconds of it being applied. In this way the player has to be active and time his skill usage, and can still suffer the negative effects if he does nothing. However, he has a chance to counter it if it is really needed. This can prevent either unnecessary deaths or the skill not being used at all, which are the current choices the player has with OSS in its current state on tribble.
- Artillery bombardment:
The skill was useless before the tribble patch, and although damage in the tribble patch was buffed, the combination of long cooldown and weak damage still makes it rather useless. Part of the problem is kinetic damage being used (which is useless as long as the shields of the target are still there), part of the problem is the low damage, part is the long cooldown. Perhaps change damage type to two Defaints firing cannon salvos instead (and renaming the skill), and increase Dmg and reduce cooldowns to be more useful.
- In general, a lot of the command and espionage skills are rather useless, and one should re-evaluate them, perhaps in a separate balance round.
- Plasmonic Leech:
The Devs seem to be valuing energy system increases differently from the player.
Dev: "This console gives you +2 to all your subsystem power levels. +2! Isn't that great?"
Player: "Em, no."
The point is: Increases in subsystem power level ARE BEING FELT by the player only if they are much larger. +2 doesn't make a difference how the ship feels. +20 or +30 much more so. Putting the old Plasmonic leech on a ship had a very recognizable effect. +6 to all subsystem power not so much, to the point that players will throw the Leech out of their build and replace it with something differently. In this case, existing player investment was changed from: "very useful" to "not worth using at all". As I said, players and devs may evaluate that usefulness differently.
I can see that the old leech was "too strong", however the new leech, even after upgrading it to 7.5 all subsystem power, still feels "too weak". Perhaps +10 or +15 might be a good compromise and balance to old values. One can now use it with the Maco shield, but one has to be careful not to create a new "Must have" here: "Oh, if you want subsystem power, you "must have" leech + maco shield". So I'd vote for the leech being increased in usefulness a bit higher than it is currently on tribble (+7.5).
- In general, I can suggest to the Devs to start some new chars and level them up on tribble to level 60, and in the process intentionally do some stupid things new players tend to do: use rainbow builds, slot a +polaron damage resistance console and then fight enemies with disruptor damage, use all of your science slots on a science ship with + shield regen consoles instead of epg or use all control consoles and then only use drain skills etc..
In this way one can see how "robust" these balance changes are to players doing stupid things. Right now, the game is very forgiving to such early-game errors. It is "easy to play, hard to master". I think it should be tested how much this statement remains after the balance changes.
Also, to see the overall effect on random PUG STFs on both normal and advanced, a lot more testing will need to be done, I don't think the effects can be judged already.
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline#/discussion/1247522/foundry-sunset-april-11th-2019/p15
Look at my post about a Foundry Ship
BRING BACK THE FOUNDRY!