are you bold enough? are your friends-list bold enough?? (Read amendment in 1st post)

patrickngo

Back in 'the day' it was possible to level a toon from 10 to 50 doing nothing but PvP-that is, no queues, no storyline missions after level 10, just Ker'rat and Queues.

Ker'rat still has instances open at low level. Are you Bold Enough? Are your Friends??

(this goes to the console kids too)

The Challenge:
The challenge is to 'ironman' a brand new toon up to level sixty, without visiting a single rep queue, PvE mission, PvEonly battlezone, just doing Ker'rat, and queue'd PvP.

Why it's a challenge: you have to find opponents, fight opponents, and defeat them, for 96 hours of gametime minimum, at levels the remainder of the PvP community simply won't touch-becayse they level out of those ranges as fast as possible using PvE.

The Method: Once your toon is physically capable, go to Ker'rat, N'Vak or Otha. This is from where you will base when you're not visiting the bank/exchange at your faction hub of choice (or social zone of choice). You'll need to wheedle, con, talk-up or advertise your status as a PvP'er doing the Ironman Challenge of leveling an alt all the way to endgame before hitting a single reputation queue, mission, or other PvE activity.

signatories to this, pledge that they will take on any and all comers-either as teammates, or targets, that they see in the warzone maps, that they will talk up PvP as an activity, that they will adhere to the best conduct of the PvP community of old:

1. Offer help and advice to new players.
2. you will ask nothing from them-except that they either join you in a match, or face you.
3. regardless of outcome, if you get a fight, it's "GF" (Good fight) or "GG" (Good Go).
4. you will only trash-talk someone who's already on your friends-list, where it's understood by both of you to be in fun.
5. you will show courtesy to vanquished foes, and respect to those foes that are victorious over you.
6. you will have a thick skin, you will not let someone's jackhole outburst penetrate your own good humour, instead, you will slay them with a smile and a nod.
7. when someone asks "How did you doo that??" you'll tell them...without being condescending, just tell 'em how they can do it too.

The Objective:

After Delta Rising, the PvP community lost a huge portion of it's best membership, the activity has declined to a shadow of a shadow of it's former glory (which to be honest, wasn't all that glorious). rebuilding the community on PC, and building the RIGHT kind of community on Console, is critical if we ever want to see any development, or even serious balancing efforts, from Cryptic. For too long, the hobby has lain in the gutter, with 'elites' only doing private matches and general negativity (Myself included) spurring new players to avoid it at all costs. With the current state of it-an endgame that demands hundreds of hours of PvE merely to be viable at level sixty, there isn't a strong cadre of new players coming in to replace the losses the community has suffered.

The only way we have available to reverse this, is community-level action, that means taking routes neglected, including bringing in new players, reinforcing basic skills, and building from the ground up.

who will accept the challenge?

I have generated a Lethean sci. Zerosz is currently level 3. when he reaches level 10, I will move him to Ker'rat for at least 1 hour per day...that's not enough to do it by myself, but...if someone else with more time were to do it, say, representatives of the current PvP fleets and organizations, including OPvP and the known PvP fleets and groups (and the Ker'rat regulars currently in their tier sixes), that's something to build off of.

If nobody steps up, I'll drop this idea and delete the toon, but I think this is something that can really work.

Amendment!!!

Due to recent examinations and the utter lack of EC rewards (particularly for Starfleet characters) in PvP (esp. at LOW LEVEL), the following amendment to the Challenge has been debated and adopted:

Amended Rules change:

Ironman Characters are not to be restricted from using the Ker'rat/Otha daily PvE mission-that means Borg in the battlezones are legitimate targets in the absence of other players. Further, borg drops in Battlezones are acceptable supplements for both EC and Gear farming while still being within the spirit of the challenge.

This amendment applies to all factions and all characters and includes the KvK battlezone of N'Vak.

Thank you for your attention.

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adamkafei

I'll be happy if this works, I would help but the thought of creating a new toon at the moment makes me miserable.

admiralkogar

I respect what you are trying to do. For what it is worth, I also respect your investment in the KDF.

However any such pledge is not to be taken lightly. Despite my presence on the forums of late, my usual habit is to grind for my fleets, and armada allies, and to try to be around if they need me. I feel I need to protect that.

Don't make any plans to delete the toon just yet ... I have filled all my character slots, but I do have a few toons still sitting at 'day one' in the tutorial, and I want a day or two to kick this around in my head.

I also have some questions about some of the details, such as for example, what ship limits are we looking at? Specifically of interest is this; the ship access and selections for KDF and Roms are story based at low levels, where the UFP options are based on rank only. Are we suggesting that you stick with your starter ship? Or do we rely on C-Store, and Account wide unlocks or Fleet ship purchases? If we do the unlocks, etc, how do we maintain the spirit of chivalry that I sense you are going for?
Thoughts?

Another question is as regards equipping yourself beyond the ship itself. What about Duty Officers? Fleet gear? Bridge Officers? Consoles? C-Store Consoles? Event consoles? You get the idea. Some of the Boff selection is gained through the Doff system, but if I read you correctly, the Doff system is off limits, and Admiralty also?

I suspect you can accept missions as long as you do not actually do them, so for example the current episode can be grandfathered in at level 10+ for the Ironman toon to complete later? (need me some Nausicaan ship gear)

As far as qualifications, I feel I am reasonably competent at PVE, but only mediocre at PVP compared to the truly dedicated, which means I am not the best teacher for that. I do have a little experience trying to teach teamwork, but again, I have never been hardcore. So! If you are reaching out to new blood to regenerate the PVP community, do you think we should give more thought to who is going to play mentor to the kids who show up excited and then get crushed by experienced players? I get splattered all the time by my own Fleet's better PVP players, and I just roll with it. I have seen many others who can't take a lot of that ...

Maybe a dumb question; How about solo/team challenges like at the Cracked Planetoid?

Do you have a start date in mind? How do you feel if someone brings a toon from each faction, alternating, to provide more challenge opportunities? My heart says KDF, but my brain says be flexible.

I know this isn't a statement of commitment, but I am at least interested, and I can say for sure I'd like to see you succeed, so I will give it serious thought, and I hope the questions weren't to annoying. I hope by asking them it will give others viewing this more to chew on, and maybe help them feel better about committing.

I was considering creating a Gamma Fleet in my KDF Armada that encouraged PVP, so thanks for taking the effort to try to do something for the community. Whatever I decide for myself, I salute you!

Qapla!

admiralkogar

adamkafei wrote: »

I'll be happy if this works, I would help but the thought of creating a new toon at the moment makes me miserable.

So if you don't mind my asking ... why does that make you miserable? I would love more character slots, but I am maxed out. All mine have a theme, so I don't want to delete any. I guess that is part of what makes it fun for me. So not that it is any of my business, but I am curious about your reasoning, if you wouldn't mind sharing?

Also, the above idea is growing on me ...

Qapla!

admiralkogar

patrickngo wrote: »

(snip)

If nobody steps up, I'll drop this idea and delete the toon, but I think this is something that can really work.

I will ask around. My best PVPrs have been away , but I am liking this idea the more I think about it.

Qapla!

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adamkafei

admiralkogar wrote: »

adamkafei wrote: »

I'll be happy if this works, I would help but the thought of creating a new toon at the moment makes me miserable.

So if you don't mind my asking ... why does that make you miserable? I would love more character slots, but I am maxed out. All mine have a theme, so I don't want to delete any. I guess that is part of what makes it fun for me. So not that it is any of my business, but I am curious about your reasoning, if you wouldn't mind sharing?

It's a combination of factors to be honest, I've done every profession-ship class combo over the years although this would be a good excuse to create a new sci-escort which I've kinda wanted to do on and off, though I get the feeling new players wouldn't enjoy SNB+Scan+EPtW+CRF+HYT and maybe a tractor beam... Another factor largely unrelated to this but that I can't dismiss is certain story arcs which even in this set up eventually need playing and of course I went and made a character for AoY which only exacerbates the problem.

Now I've gone and somewhat talked myself into it, what I will do when I have a system running which is capable of playing the game is to make my fleet aware of this, I may well end up joining in, if I don't talk myself back out of it.

admiralkogar

patrickngo wrote: »

admiralkogar wrote: »

I respect what you are trying to do. For what it is worth, I also respect your investment in the KDF.

However any such pledge is not to be taken lightly. Despite my presence on the forums of late, my usual habit is to grind for my fleets, and armada allies, and to try to be around if they need me. I feel I need to protect that.

Don't make any plans to delete the toon just yet ... I have filled all my character slots, but I do have a few toons still sitting at 'day one' in the tutorial, and I want a day or two to kick this around in my head.

I also have some questions about some of the details, such as for example, what ship limits are we looking at? Specifically of interest is this; the ship access and selections for KDF and Roms are story based at low levels, where the UFP options are based on rank only. Are we suggesting that you stick with your starter ship? Or do we rely on C-Store, and Account wide unlocks or Fleet ship purchases? If we do the unlocks, etc, how do we maintain the spirit of chivalry that I sense you are going for?
Thoughts?

For the critical lower levels, your choices do tend to be either 'free' or C-store, and the T1-T4 ships in the C-store are mostly balanced. Fleet vessels become an issue at T5, as do Lobi and event ships (though the Kamarag's a nice ride, the Ironman kind of locks it out-along with the Ambassador.) The root of the challenge is developing skills independent of special equipment, so there is something of a question about equipment limits. (one of the debates that nearly killed Vanilla before Delta finished it off). SOME equipment is widely available, however-plas Leech can be purchased on the Exchange, for example. and it's difficult to gear a new toon without doing PvE, so that is also a consideration.

so...here's what I think...

C-store unlocks are fine. Lobi...eh...we'll have to work that out. Event ships? again, something to work out if/and/when someone reaches 50 through pure pvp (from 10, because 10 is about when you get your initial cadre of boffs and can be considered 'through the tutorial'.) Mirror ships are fine at Level 40 and above, fleet ships?

Addressed thusly:

Ironman toons only buy what they have earned from the exchange, or fleet stores. this means, essentially, that after you finish your tutorial, the only EC available to your Ironman toon, the only Fleet Credits, are to be earned through PvP. ditto for crafting materials, etc. etc. This a 'Theme toon'-this character will earn everything only through fighting against other players. If he can't craft it, he can't have it for crafted items. since, by definition, all rep gear is done through PvE, as is all event ships, those end up off the table until you hit level sixty.

because if you've gotten from 10 to 60 without doing rep grinding in PvE, your skillz should be badass enough that the gloves can well and truly come off, because you have taken all comers including geardoes who try to buy their wins through grind and zen-conversion.

*special note: KDF players should watch for "Test of Mettle", this unlocks free options for ship availability, and typically happens at 10, unless there's an XP event going on.

Another question is as regards equipping yourself beyond the ship itself. What about Duty Officers? Fleet gear? Bridge Officers? Consoles? C-Store Consoles? Event consoles? You get the idea. Some of the Boff selection is gained through the Doff system, but if I read you correctly, the Doff system is off limits, and Admiralty also?

Duty officer limits as follows; Can you earn it through PvP and PvP alone,without tapping your other toons? (applies to EC purchases on the exchange, or dilithium-to-zen-to-doffpack buys only) Standard, ordinary grinding of duty officers (again) must be done only with the resources available from that toon's own efforts-which do not include PvE after level 10. IOW if you earned that much fighting Arenas and C&H and Ker'rat matches, maybe with the wrappers, and you saved that hard on that toon?

You've earned it, but be sure to let your opponents know what you have and how you got it. (so no, the doffing system isn't off-limits, it's a core part of the game, and really, it's impossible to ban people from doing it.)

I suspect you can accept missions as long as you do not actually do them, so for example the current episode can be grandfathered in at level 10+ for the Ironman toon to complete later? (need me some Nausicaan ship gear)

As far as qualifications, I feel I am reasonably competent at PVE, but only mediocre at PVP compared to the truly dedicated, which means I am not the best teacher for that. I do have a little experience trying to teach teamwork, but again, I have never been hardcore. So! If you are reaching out to new blood to regenerate the PVP community, do you think we should give more thought to who is going to play mentor to the kids who show up excited and then get crushed by experienced players? I get splattered all the time by my own Fleet's better PVP players, and I just roll with it. I have seen many others who can't take a lot of that ...

Great thing about it, is that if you commit to it, you'll GET good...and find your PvE on other toons improving as well. (I routinely pull aggro off of self-proclaimed DPS gods in PvE...in a bird of prey. sometimes at levels below sixty.)

Maybe a dumb question; How about solo/team challenges like at the Cracked Planetoid?

Duelling in Ker'rat is encouraged. It lets others witness the fight. Private queues are discouraged, because it's too easy to 'cheat' things by arranging a thrown match. (as was a common practice in 2012 for people grinding FM for their fleets, and thus the reason PvP rewards were gutted by the devs to their current status.)

Do you have a start date in mind? How do you feel if someone brings a toon from each faction, alternating, to provide more challenge opportunities? My heart says KDF, but my brain says be flexible.

If you want to bring three, bring three. one of each, or four, if you count AoY/TOS toons as a separate faction. It's a one-toon minimum, not a maximum, and with Ker'rat being as it is, someone will often find it's good to have a toon for every flavour just to keep the action going. Being the guy who keeps the action going runs right to the spirit of the challenge.

I know this isn't a statement of commitment, but I am at least interested, and I can say for sure I'd like to see you succeed, so I will give it serious thought, and I hope the questions weren't to annoying. I hope by asking them it will give others viewing this more to chew on, and maybe help them feel better about committing.

I was considering creating a Gamma Fleet in my KDF Armada that encouraged PVP, so thanks for taking the effort to try to do something for the community. Whatever I decide for myself, I salute you!

Qapla!

Well, I hope you commit. I'm going to give it a month before 'go or quit' time, so by december 6, we'll either have players sign up, or I'll drop the idea entirely. In the intervening time, if people have suggestions-I'm open to them, so long as they serve the spirit of the challenge-which is to build up 'good' experiences for new players and build a new cadre of skilled PvP'ers through that most critical of all teaching methods;

Actual experience. We need to show the new guys that it's fun, that it's do-able, and that they're not going to be rollerstomped just for showing up to a match.

Plus, it's a truer test of "Skills" in build and flying than running the newest hotness and ganking noobies in Ker'rat's level 60 playing field.

"Ironman" is meant to set an example. (kinda why I want to foster a certain conduct), it's about building up a community of players that are confident, competent, and a community that is friendly and open to casuals by establishing a culture in the game. You don't have to be "The BEstest" when you start-we teach each other, we help build cameraderie, connection, and investment, set a standard, you might say.

cryptic can't do it for us-we have to do it for ourselves...but if we do it, and we succeed, we might be able to turn their attitude around, and get things like leaderboards, and matchmaking, and new maps and new modes-all that development this end of STO hasn't gotten for six years.

we might even convince them that we're not a bunch of spawncamping douchebags looking to gank helpless noobs for our own petty egoes, that PvP is a worthy activity, worthy of attention, of development, of cultivation.

but it's up to us.

I am very close to jumping onboard. I want to re-read the suggested limits. Also, if you do a 'private' match but bring one or more 'seconds' to bear witness, does that mitigate cracked planetoid? It isn't a sticking point, I am just tightening up my understanding.

Ultimately, you are correct in that it is up to us, whatever happens. I'll get my Ferrasan to level 10, and make a hard choice then. I'd say I'm 75% likely at this point.

Qapla!

admiralkogar

adamkafei wrote: »

admiralkogar wrote: »

adamkafei wrote: »

I'll be happy if this works, I would help but the thought of creating a new toon at the moment makes me miserable.

So if you don't mind my asking ... why does that make you miserable? I would love more character slots, but I am maxed out. All mine have a theme, so I don't want to delete any. I guess that is part of what makes it fun for me. So not that it is any of my business, but I am curious about your reasoning, if you wouldn't mind sharing?

It's a combination of factors to be honest, I've done every profession-ship class combo over the years although this would be a good excuse to create a new sci-escort which I've kinda wanted to do on and off, though I get the feeling new players wouldn't enjoy SNB+Scan+EPtW+CRF+HYT and maybe a tractor beam... Another factor largely unrelated to this but that I can't dismiss is certain story arcs which even in this set up eventually need playing and of course I went and made a character for AoY which only exacerbates the problem.

Now I've gone and somewhat talked myself into it, what I will do when I have a system running which is capable of playing the game is to make my fleet aware of this, I may well end up joining in, if I don't talk myself back out of it.

Thanks for sharing. I believe this idea has merit. I'm going to work my Ferasan to level 10, and then probably do this.

Qapla!

admiralkogar

Well I am picking a Fed to level to 10, so I can have them ready also. I'm inching to 90% likely.

Qapla!

usskentucky

I think this is a good idea and would consider it. It's the 90+ hours of gameplay that seems a bit much. According to arc I haven't played that much in the last two years total. And I play A LOT--too much. Maybe let players play through all of the episodes to get the gear and skill points? Won't it still take months to get from 50 to 60? And isn't that commitment what you are looking for? Again, I like the idea of creating a path to 60 that requires pure skill, just not the idea of leveling a toon for 3 years.

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usskentucky

So you want to level from 10-50 without using resources from other toons?

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admiralkogar

patrickngo wrote: »

usskentucky wrote: »

So you want to level from 10-50 without using resources from other toons?

yes. with some caveats-like account-bound ships being accessible (but only at the appropriate tier, and mostly to allow for variety at each tier level.)

so basically "Ships yeah, but not EC, Dilithium, crafted goods, (lobi/event)consoles, or marks". It's actually taking an intentional handicap, since it's wide-open for anyone who isn't playing as an "ironman" PvP'er-the idea is to build your SKILL while giving newbies a CHANCE-it's really really easy to have overwhelming levels of advantage if you start funnelling in stuff from your maxed crafting toon, or giving a huge bank-account boost from that toon you've had accumulating EC since 2011, or dilithium transfer from your dilithium 'mule'-which again, kinda defeats the intent. If you're following the Ironman way, having access to a c-store ship from another toon shouldn't be that big of an advantage, ditto at forty-to-fifty-something with using a mirror ship, because you're still having to fit out only with what you can acquire off the Ironman alone. iow that which he (or she, or it) has the ability to craft, buy on the exchange with winnings alone, etc.

in theory, at least, being able to beat someone who's got full access to all the cheeze with what amounts to whatever you can scrounge or save up for (without doing lots of PvE) means that on the toons you HAVE access to those resources, you'll be a holy terror. (again, skill development) likewise, while in the handicapped state, you'll be (if you're good) able to hold your own without gear dependency against most casuals who haven't been tutored by you yet-but not so much that it's unfair to them.

Means that people that might've walked away dejected because they just "Don't have the time to grind that much" will come back, because they can get a fair match, while you're getting more challenging fights than you were cruising the same 10 people in Ker'rat-60 or unlimited class Opvp.

it's kind of a "how to lure them in and hook them before they notice" strategy.

Full disclosure, I have a LOT of C-Store ships unlocked for low levels. I also have access to nearly any Mirror ship on the Fed side just because we have a member who dumps them in piles into the Fleet bank, like he is Santa Claus. I also have a habit of lumping my Zen into master keys in my account bank from time to time and I occasionally get lucky.

So account/Fleet bank maybe should be off limits to the Ironman toon? For ships and gear both?

For clarification, and with respect to an honor system, you did say that Account unlocked C-Store are OK. Is that so, even if you have a huge selection? I remind you that the consoles that come with those ships are a big part of what makes them worth getting. What about ships that get unlocked during the challenge, as a result of normal purchasing for the account, but which then become available to the Ironman toon? Seems to be a little grey area there.

Fleet ships, which I think are generally better pound for pound than any others, can be gotten for a little less than a million dilithium if you include the price of the modules, an amount which I believe I can get using the Doff missions, if it was just me. It would take awhile, no doubt! However you said the Doff system was OK to use, which is one reason I am asking. If I understood you correctly, then IF you can't get that much dilithium on the Ironman toon then you can't get the Fleet ship, but if you can do it, then knock yourself out?

Thanks for putting your time in. I'm to about 95% sure I'm going to be in on this now.

Qapla!

admiralkogar

OK, I have three toons I am looking at, and may bring all three. It depends on what level the Rom faction toon ends up at before Ker'rat. I need to avoid bonus EXp weekends till I level them

Oh yeah, once the pledge is finalized for official sign up, count me in. I will do this!

Qapla!

usskentucky

I find this forum convoluted and have trouble getting things to post. Do you suppose you could create a webpage or info graphic that plainly spell out the terms and conditions? Also, how about a set of fleets for people to join, something indicative of the challenge?

admiralkogar

usskentucky wrote: »

I find this forum convoluted and have trouble getting things to post. Do you suppose you could create a webpage or info graphic that plainly spell out the terms and conditions? Also, how about a set of fleets for people to join, something indicative of the challenge?

I have a feeling we will have to organize a bit .... I don't want to jump out and look like a glory hound, but I was going to make a wing (gamma Fleet) for each of my Armadas that was pvp friendly. I postponed that because the new update was coming, but I could put them together as focal points.

A couple of things though. My Armada activity is pretty low these days, so it might be a better idea to leave the new Fleets independent for a long while, and maybe attach them to an Armada later. Low activity Fleets aren't usually a big draw, and bored people tend to leave, or forget to log on. We don't need that.

I am working on making the Armadas more active, but yeah, I lost all momentum with new blood awhile back, and the old blood got pulled away by real life (military/family), and other forms of entertainment. (Other MMOs, can you believe it? Three of my Senior command are playing them now !)

We will make this easier.

Qapla!

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admiralkogar

admiralkogar wrote: »

usskentucky wrote: »

I find this forum convoluted and have trouble getting things to post. Do you suppose you could create a webpage or info graphic that plainly spell out the terms and conditions? Also, how about a set of fleets for people to join, something indicative of the challenge?

I have a feeling we will have to organize a bit .... I don't want to jump out and look like a glory hound, but I was going to make a wing (gamma Fleet) for each of my Armadas that was pvp friendly. I postponed that because the new update was coming, but I could put them together as focal points.

A couple of things though. My Armada activity is pretty low these days, so it might be a better idea to leave the new Fleets independent for a long while, and maybe attach them to an Armada later. Low activity Fleets aren't usually a big draw, and bored people tend to leave, or forget to log on. We don't need that.

I am working on making the Armadas more active, but yeah, I lost all momentum with new blood awhile back, and the old blood got pulled away by real life (military/family), and other forms of entertainment. (Other MMOs, can you believe it? Three of my Senior command are playing them now !)

We will make this easier.

Qapla!

My progress will be slow for a few days. I will be working 18 hr days at work over the weekend, and I will need to sleep sometime. I will still move forward leveling toons. I'll make a couple Fleets at some point and if we don't use them, no big.

Qapla!

admiralkogar

Maybe a channel would be a good place to start?

Qapla!

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legendarylycan

why not just use the old V-PvP channel if it hasn't been deleted? of course, someone would have to dig up @voporak and have him turn over administrative control of the channel to someone else, unless he wants to come back to STO for another shot at PvP revival​​

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admiralkogar

patrickngo wrote: »

shadowfang240 wrote: »

why not just use the old V-PvP channel if it hasn't been deleted? of course, someone would have to dig up @voporak and have him turn over administrative control of the channel to someone else, unless he wants to come back to STO for another shot at PvP revival​​

considering that I did rely a lot on the ideas behind Vanilla when I formulated this, might be a good idea to see if he's around and maybe willing to give it a shot.

I'll hold off, but I have a channel that my Armadas don't use much. Maybe it would work in a pinch. I think this idea you guys have is probably better though.

Qapla!

gaalom

This actually sounds like fun, a break from the grind at end game, but one thing. How do you get past the Episode blocks that trigger the first important promotion you get. For the Romulans its khitomer, and for the KDF its the fall of the House of Torg. Not sure what it was for the Feds cant remember.

legendarylycan

you can't remember because the federation doesn't have a mission like that; it's why they have no issues with double XP events in the way KDF and RR players do​​

gaalom

Do you guys know of a work around for this on the KDF end?

admiralkogar

gaalom wrote: »

Do you guys know of a work around for this on the KDF end?

First off, don't do the bonus exp weekend. That way it doesn't make things worse for you.

Secondly, try to only do the crucial missions to get clear of the story. I think you can get freed up at level 10/Khitomer/Torg both if you are careful. I am trying to confirm this with a Rom, and a KDF at this time. I will be glad to share what I find out.

My only hang up in getting back quickly on this is that I am working 18 hours a day split shifts for the weekend, so I have to fit sleep and food in there. I'l keep inching forward.

Oh yeah, I have an advantage in that I have a ship for each faction, and each tier already unlocked on my account. Patrickngo was saying he didn't mind if we used that option, but if I am the only one who has it, I would feel it was a tad dishonorable in that case.

Keep the faith!

Qapla!

Maybe we can make the level requirement 11 or 12 ? We can kick it around at least.

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