Essentially, thanks to having early warning via Q and winning a couple early victories, the Federation was able to adapt to the Borg instead of the other way around. All the Borg have really been shown to adapt to is directed energy weapons, and then only temporarily, whereas Starfleet altered its entire approach, philosophically and technologically. And by STO, the logical conclusion of meeting every species by attempting to conquer by force has been reached: most of the easy targets have already been assimilated and they've now antagonized multiple opponents close enough to their own level to go toe-to-toe with them.
However, this also means that, the Borg being constitutionally incapable of having any foreign policy other than "you will be assimilated", I expect (and request) their complete annihilation to take place at some point.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
so prime universe borg vs kelvin universe borg who wins?
The Borg obviously. Everybody else loses as the KT and PT Borg would be identical.
The attack on the Kelvin changed the balance of power and relationships between the Federation, Klingon Empire, and the Romulan Star Empire and probably a few minor powers. It wouldn't affect the Borg. It's not a Mirror Universe.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
That was a maturation chamber, not a birthing chamber... But absolutely, insect heirarchy is pretty much exactly what the Queen is, and how the Borg operate
That's not at all how the Borg we see in canon operate. The Queen is a moody brat vampire queen and directly controls her personal army. She verbally adresses inidividual Borg to do stuff. Current canon Borg are as far from the concept of a hive mind as you can be.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Will they destroy the Kelvin Universe? (Asking for a friend)
Yes
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
@angrytarg : LOL @ "moody brat vampire queen". Pretty much sums up how far downhill the Borg went under Berman & Braga's tenure.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
We need newer enemies rehashing the borg gets alittle boring.
Be creative make up something different for villains. Like a mad man stealing a powerful weapon and has to be stopped or other robotic lifeforms wanting to terminate Humans.
To touch on a point you made before your edit, one of the comics or novels mentioned something called a Royal Protocol, which would reconfigure an existing drone into a Queen, if the existing Queen was destroyed
That was a maturation chamber, not a birthing chamber... But absolutely, insect heirarchy is pretty much exactly what the Queen is, and how the Borg operate
That's not at all how the Borg we see in canon operate. The Queen is a moody brat vampire queen and directly controls her personal army. She verbally adresses inidividual Borg to do stuff. Current canon Borg are as far from the concept of a hive mind as you can be.
That's certainly how the Borg Queen seen in VOY has become. I think some of the issue is trying to translate a concept like the collective into something which audiences will find relatable, and not quite getting the balance right. I think her description of herself in First Contact were perfect: She is the One Who is Many. She is [an avatar of]the Collective. But, over-exposure ammended how she was handled, and Braga lost control of his creation (assuming she was his character, and not one of Ronald Moore's...)
Let them and let them stay there. The Prime Galaxy has enough problems. If the borg want to invade a different Timeline/Universe. By all means, let them. I really do not have to the time to care what's happening in the Mirror Universe, or even the Kelvin Timeline. As long as it's not a "We need you to go save the Federation in X universe" Expansion to the game. I wouldn't care if the entire Kelvin Universe got assimilated.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,167Community Moderator
Let them and let them stay there. The Prime Galaxy has enough problems. If the borg want to invade a different Timeline/Universe. By all means, let them. I really do not have to the time to care what's happening in the Mirror Universe, or even the Kelvin Timeline. As long as it's not a "We need you to go save the Federation in X universe" Expansion to the game. I wouldn't care if the entire Kelvin Universe got assimilated.
They wouldn't need to cross timelines as the Borg already exist over there.
"*sigh* I'll be honest, I'm totally sick of the Borg. They are overexposed and most writers don't really have anything constructive to add to them.
The only way I would be interested in this is if they decided to take advantage of the reboot status to do away with the whole "Queen" nonsense and stop treating them like an insect hierarchy. I would much rather they return back to being a single collective hive mind where all individuals are equal in servitude of the whole."
I agree a 100%, I hated the Borg Queen, she ruined the Borg, turned them into 1 dimesional evil, instead of the original more nuanced approach of Locutus, who promoted the idea that the goal for the Borg was to raise the standard of life for all beings, they weren't just bawahahaha evil that they became with the Borg queen, there were shades of grey. The only good thing after that was Seven of Nine and the Borg Cooperative.
And as you said, it destroyed the whole collective thing, when its clear its not a collective, but a massive group enslaved by Borg Queens.
Although to be fair its an excellent depiction of Feminism ;p
To be fair the Hugh plotline wasn't great either.
It why I go against the grain and say First Contact was the worst Star Trek movie ever.
PS: Now that I think of the Borg Queen and her non collective, collective as an analogy for modern feminism, it makes it way more interesting to me now. I just had this ephany writing this, so my perpective on the Borg has radically changed. That's the second race that is a great analogy for feminism, the other being the Drow from the Forgotten Realms.
That's not at all how the Borg we see in canon operate. The Queen is a moody brat vampire queen and directly controls her personal army. She verbally adresses inidividual Borg to do stuff. Current canon Borg are as far from the concept of a hive mind as you can be.
That's certainly how the Borg Queen seen in VOY has become. I think some of the issue is trying to translate a concept like the collective into something which audiences will find relatable, and not quite getting the balance right. I think her description of herself in First Contact were perfect: She is the One Who is Many. She is [an avatar of]the Collective. But, over-exposure ammended how she was handled, and Braga lost control of his creation (assuming she was his character, and not one of Ronald Moore's...)
I'm actually surprised at this but they apparently co-wrote her. Ron Moore saw her as a literal character in her own right, not merely an anthropomorphic personification.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Essentially, thanks to having early warning via Q and winning a couple early victories, the Federation was able to adapt to the Borg instead of the other way around. All the Borg have really been shown to adapt to is directed energy weapons, and then only temporarily, whereas Starfleet altered its entire approach, philosophically and technologically. And by STO, the logical conclusion of meeting every species by attempting to conquer by force has been reached: most of the easy targets have already been assimilated and they've now antagonized multiple opponents close enough to their own level to go toe-to-toe with them.
However, this also means that, the Borg being constitutionally incapable of having any foreign policy other than "you will be assimilated", I expect (and request) their complete annihilation to take place at some point.
Unless they ar really shown to be adaptable at some point, and thye alter their approach finally.
Because I could see that some people would volunteer to be assimilated. Being part of a huge hive mind might be a fascinating experience (temporarily or permanently). But even people that might be interesting in it won't appreciate it if you force it to others that are not.
Maybe they have assimilated enough Federation citizens by now to find a solution to their problem - diplomacy instead of force.
It's also one of the reasons why I find the Borg / Federation comparisons so incredibly flawed. Yes, the Federatinon wants you as a member and will "assimilate" you. But only if you agree with their core values. You aren't forced into submission.
Yes, you can't be a member if you don't agree on these core aspects, but the Federation only works because its members do agree on a few key issues (and not even all issues - Vulcans, Andorians and Humans have pretty different cultures, but they still work together in the Federation.) Saying this is the same as the Borg is missing the whole point.
You could just as well say: "There are laws in a dictatorship and there are laws in a democracy, hence they are the same thing and they are equally good or bad".
But maybe the Borg can change. People that want to join a collective conciousness could be invited to volunartily join. Maybe the Borg could even allow people to leave the hive again. Some of them might actually become ambassadors of the hive mind.
Of course, such a change would remove the Borg as antagonist for the most part.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
That's certainly how the Borg Queen seen in VOY has become. I think some of the issue is trying to translate a concept like the collective into something which audiences will find relatable, and not quite getting the balance right. I think her description of herself in First Contact were perfect: She is the One Who is Many. She is [an avatar of]the Collective. But, over-exposure ammended how she was handled, and Braga lost control of his creation (assuming she was his character, and not one of Ronald Moore's...)
Even in FC that wasn't true. As @starswordc pointed out, Moore intented that she's a literal character. She owns the Borg as a private army and is a individual. I have several headcanon attempts to justify it, but ultimately it's a huge writing TRIBBLE up. The concept of the Borg as introduced was simply dropped and changed for dramatic effect.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
That's not at all how the Borg we see in canon operate. The Queen is a moody brat vampire queen and directly controls her personal army. She verbally adresses inidividual Borg to do stuff. Current canon Borg are as far from the concept of a hive mind as you can be.
That's certainly how the Borg Queen seen in VOY has become. I think some of the issue is trying to translate a concept like the collective into something which audiences will find relatable, and not quite getting the balance right. I think her description of herself in First Contact were perfect: She is the One Who is Many. She is [an avatar of]the Collective. But, over-exposure ammended how she was handled, and Braga lost control of his creation (assuming she was his character, and not one of Ronald Moore's...)
I'm actually surprised at this but they apparently co-wrote her. Ron Moore saw her as a literal character in her own right, not merely an anthropomorphic personification.
That is surprising, I wouldn't have said I saw any of Moore's influence in her, which is why I thought she was one of Braga's
That's certainly how the Borg Queen seen in VOY has become. I think some of the issue is trying to translate a concept like the collective into something which audiences will find relatable, and not quite getting the balance right. I think her description of herself in First Contact were perfect: She is the One Who is Many. She is [an avatar of]the Collective. But, over-exposure ammended how she was handled, and Braga lost control of his creation (assuming she was his character, and not one of Ronald Moore's...)
Even in FC that wasn't true. As @starswordc pointed out, Moore intented that she's a literal character. She owns the Borg as a private army and is a individual. I have several headcanon attempts to justify it, but ultimately it's a huge writing **** up. The concept of the Borg as introduced was simply dropped and changed for dramatic effect.
Yes, because the Collective exists within her...
To be fair, the original concept of the Borg (other than the bluegills) was of an insect-hive, and all hives have a ...: wink: I think all the material to take her in precisely that way, is in her early exchange with Data (depending on your point of view) but yeah, they really messed things up when they turned the Borg into Mad Kathy's punching bag
That's not at all how the Borg we see in canon operate. The Queen is a moody brat vampire queen and directly controls her personal army. She verbally adresses inidividual Borg to do stuff. Current canon Borg are as far from the concept of a hive mind as you can be.
That's certainly how the Borg Queen seen in VOY has become. I think some of the issue is trying to translate a concept like the collective into something which audiences will find relatable, and not quite getting the balance right. I think her description of herself in First Contact were perfect: She is the One Who is Many. She is [an avatar of]the Collective. But, over-exposure ammended how she was handled, and Braga lost control of his creation (assuming she was his character, and not one of Ronald Moore's...)
I'm actually surprised at this but they apparently co-wrote her. Ron Moore saw her as a literal character in her own right, not merely an anthropomorphic personification.
That is surprising, I wouldn't have said I saw any of Moore's influence in her, which is why I thought she was one of Braga's
Well, I am not sure you could make out an author's handwriting so easily on a single character, but I'd like to point out that one of Moore's influence on DS9 might have been the more complex characters, both for protagonists and antagonists. So it might not be a surprise that he treated the Queen as a fully fledged character.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
The real question is, how many lens flares will the Kelvinborg ship interiors have?
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
To be fair, the original concept of the Borg (other than the bluegills) was of an insect-hive, and all hives have a ...: wink: I think all the material to take her in precisely that way, is in her early exchange with Data (depending on your point of view) but yeah, they really messed things up when they turned the Borg into Mad Kathy's punching bag
But the collective isn't supposed to be in her. She controls it. No metalevel here, she is a literal individual It is a sad fact they changed it around so much instead of recognizing that the Borg, introduced as "the perfect user", wasn't ever meant to be a villian but rather a plot device.
The original insect and queen concept was changed enough. Q, Who introduced the Borg as they were meant to be in Star Trek - the problem is that they simply ignored that for "Descent" in parts and completely for FC and VOY
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
That's not at all how the Borg we see in canon operate. The Queen is a moody brat vampire queen and directly controls her personal army. She verbally adresses inidividual Borg to do stuff. Current canon Borg are as far from the concept of a hive mind as you can be.
That's certainly how the Borg Queen seen in VOY has become. I think some of the issue is trying to translate a concept like the collective into something which audiences will find relatable, and not quite getting the balance right. I think her description of herself in First Contact were perfect: She is the One Who is Many. She is [an avatar of]the Collective. But, over-exposure ammended how she was handled, and Braga lost control of his creation (assuming she was his character, and not one of Ronald Moore's...)
I'm actually surprised at this but they apparently co-wrote her. Ron Moore saw her as a literal character in her own right, not merely an anthropomorphic personification.
That is surprising, I wouldn't have said I saw any of Moore's influence in her, which is why I thought she was one of Braga's
Well, I am not sure you could make out an author's handwriting so easily on a single character, but I'd like to point out that one of Moore's influence on DS9 might have been the more complex characters, both for protagonists and antagonists. So it might not be a surprise that he treated the Queen as a fully fledged character.
I admit, it was an assumption on my part... Braga created Seven of Nine and T'Pol, and I saw the Borg Queen as fitting into that catsuited-mold Perhaps he revealed the initial concept, and Moore filtered her words
That's certainly how the Borg Queen seen in VOY has become. I think some of the issue is trying to translate a concept like the collective into something which audiences will find relatable, and not quite getting the balance right. I think her description of herself in First Contact were perfect: She is the One Who is Many. She is [an avatar of]the Collective. But, over-exposure ammended how she was handled, and Braga lost control of his creation (assuming she was his character, and not one of Ronald Moore's...)
Even in FC that wasn't true. As @starswordc pointed out, Moore intented that she's a literal character. She owns the Borg as a private army and is a individual. I have several headcanon attempts to justify it, but ultimately it's a huge writing **** up. The concept of the Borg as introduced was simply dropped and changed for dramatic effect.
Honestly.... I EXPECTED this to happen. Back before DS9 was even on TV... See, the forced nature of the Borg assimilation was why I concluded that logically there was a creator of the Borg lurking in the darkness of the universe telling them what to do(if only in a vague way).
why did Q not mention it? As if Q ever gave anyone comprehensive information.... Q told people what he felt like, IF he felt like it.
To be fair, the original concept of the Borg (other than the bluegills) was of an insect-hive, and all hives have a ...: wink: I think all the material to take her in precisely that way, is in her early exchange with Data (depending on your point of view) but yeah, they really messed things up when they turned the Borg into Mad Kathy's punching bag
But the collective isn't supposed to be in her. She controls it. No metalevel here, she is a literal individual It is a sad fact they changed it around so much instead of recognizing that the Borg, introduced as "the perfect user", wasn't ever meant to be a villian but rather a plot device.
The original insect and queen concept was changed enough. Q, Who introduced the Borg as they were meant to be in Star Trek - the problem is that they simply ignored that for "Descent" in parts and completely for FC and VOY
I'm sorry I didn't reply earlier, I didn't see your post right away as I posted right after you did Absolutely, the collective is not meant to be in her, she is meant to Be Of the Collective... But they lost sight of that in VOY and started treating her like an individual...
Q, Who simply gave a look at the Borg. Riker thought that the Borg started implanting technology onto babies soon after birth (completely against the concept of the Borg simply assimilating new bodies, no need for procreation) but that unit he found the baby in, was later explained to be a maturation chamber, so it can't be taken as 100% literal, in light of future revelations about the Borg
As Picard then stated with regards his experience on a/the cube in Best of Both Worlds: "You were there all along!" So just because she wasn't seen in Q, Who, doesn't mean that she wasn't there all along too (although probably with a slightly different chassis...)
Without the Borg Queen, the Cube in First Contact would just have been 'a cube', and the crew of the Enterprise already defeated one of those with the 'sleep hack'... That's not really going to cut in on the Big Screen, so I can see why they took the decision they did in creating the Queen for a more 'audience friendly experience'
That's certainly how the Borg Queen seen in VOY has become. I think some of the issue is trying to translate a concept like the collective into something which audiences will find relatable, and not quite getting the balance right. I think her description of herself in First Contact were perfect: She is the One Who is Many. She is [an avatar of]the Collective. But, over-exposure ammended how she was handled, and Braga lost control of his creation (assuming she was his character, and not one of Ronald Moore's...)
Even in FC that wasn't true. As @starswordc pointed out, Moore intented that she's a literal character. She owns the Borg as a private army and is a individual. I have several headcanon attempts to justify it, but ultimately it's a huge writing **** up. The concept of the Borg as introduced was simply dropped and changed for dramatic effect.
Honestly.... I EXPECTED this to happen. Back before DS9 was even on TV... See, the forced nature of the Borg assimilation was why I concluded that logically there was a creator of the Borg lurking in the darkness of the universe telling them what to do(if only in a vague way).
why did Q not mention it? As if Q ever gave anyone comprehensive information.... Q told people what he felt like, IF he felt like it.
We know that the Q have rules, and that Q has been punished for breaking them. If (and this is a Big If, I admit) they have an equivalent of the Prime Directive, he may not have been able to mention it...
As the old adage goes; Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day - Teach a man to fish, and he eats for a lifetime...
Perhaps Q was bound by rules preventing him from specifically telling Picard and Co all about the Borg... But if he were to simply move the Enterprise, and they take scans and make observations of what they encounter*, well, that isn't telling them all about the Borg, is it
*which just so happens, accidentally on purpose of course, to be a Borg cube...
Sadly, the introduction of the Queen was largely due to the "Khaaaaan!!!" effect, where the writers keep trying to copy the Wrath of Khan with each new movie. Unfortunately they keep missing the point by introducing brand new villains that nobody cares about, instead of drawing on their roster of past villains. Another part of this was Patrick Stewarts insistence that he wanted to have more of an action hero role, getting into fist fights with the villains despite it being totally out of character for Picard.
This situation isn't even limited to the Borg, each of the TNG movies has tried to go with a foe for the hero to fight and banter with. Since the start of the TNG-era of movies we have been bombarded by one throw away villain after another; Soran, Borg Queen, Ru'afo, Shinzon, Nero, Khan 2.0, Krall... chances are pretty good the next movie will probably have another one as well.
The really sad part is that it didn't have to come to this. For example, imagine how ST: Nemesis would have been if Sela had been the villain instead of a nobody like Shinzon. Her past history with the cast would have made for a much more compelling drama, complete with her half-human nature being a source of tension among her allies. It would have even tied much better into the Data-B4 subplot. Data's goal has never really been to become human, but rather to be a part of a family/community. Tasha Yar was his first romantic partner, which would mean that killing Sela would be like killing the last remnant of Tasha. The B4 subplot would also tie into the whole family dynamic, as Sela has been personally thwarted by Data multiple times and using "family" to strike against him would be in keeping with the Romulans.
Sadly, the introduction of the Queen was largely due to the "Khaaaaan!!!" effect, where the writers keep trying to copy the Wrath of Khan with each new movie. Unfortunately they keep missing the point by introducing brand new villains that nobody cares about, instead of drawing on their roster of past villains. Another part of this was Patrick Stewarts insistence that he wanted to have more of an action hero role, getting into fist fights with the villains despite it being totally out of character for Picard.
This situation isn't even limited to the Borg, each of the TNG movies has tried to go with a foe for the hero to fight and banter with. Since the start of the TNG-era of movies we have been bombarded by one throw away villain after another; Soran, Borg Queen, Ru'afo, Shinzon, Nero, Khan 2.0, Krall... chances are pretty good the next movie will probably have another one as well.
The really sad part is that it didn't have to come to this. For example, imagine how ST: Nemesis would have been if Sela had been the villain instead of a nobody like Shinzon. Her past history with the cast would have made for a much more compelling drama, complete with her half-human nature being a source of tension among her allies. It would have even tied much better into the Data-B4 subplot. Data's goal has never really been to become human, but rather to be a part of a family/community. Tasha Yar was his first romantic partner, which would mean that killing Sela would be like killing the last remnant of Tasha. The B4 subplot would also tie into the whole family dynamic, as Sela has been personally thwarted by Data multiple times and using "family" to strike against him would be in keeping with the Romulans.
No one cared about Khan until Wrath of Khan either... No one cared about David Marcus until he got knifed by a Klingon, protecting Saavik and Spock...
I agree that having Sela in Nemesis would have worked nicely for Star Trek fans who know who she is, but for a brand-new sit-down audience, she would have been just another new face on the screen, like Donatra was... Donatra was a more-than-compelling character in her solo appearance, so I don't think that a new villain is necessarily a bad thing if they stand up to the needs of the plot. Shinzon served that plot, because he was a clone of Picard, and what Picard saw in Shinzon (or rather wanted to see in Shinzon, was the sense of familial continuation he lost when his brother and nephew died. I agree, Sela would have been perfectly adequate, but so was what we were given, IMHO...
Sadly, the introduction of the Queen was largely due to the "Khaaaaan!!!" effect, where the writers keep trying to copy the Wrath of Khan with each new movie. Unfortunately they keep missing the point by introducing brand new villains that nobody cares about, instead of drawing on their roster of past villains. Another part of this was Patrick Stewarts insistence that he wanted to have more of an action hero role, getting into fist fights with the villains despite it being totally out of character for Picard.
This situation isn't even limited to the Borg, each of the TNG movies has tried to go with a foe for the hero to fight and banter with. Since the start of the TNG-era of movies we have been bombarded by one throw away villain after another; Soran, Borg Queen, Ru'afo, Shinzon, Nero, Khan 2.0, Krall... chances are pretty good the next movie will probably have another one as well.
The really sad part is that it didn't have to come to this. For example, imagine how ST: Nemesis would have been if Sela had been the villain instead of a nobody like Shinzon. Her past history with the cast would have made for a much more compelling drama, complete with her half-human nature being a source of tension among her allies. It would have even tied much better into the Data-B4 subplot. Data's goal has never really been to become human, but rather to be a part of a family/community. Tasha Yar was his first romantic partner, which would mean that killing Sela would be like killing the last remnant of Tasha. The B4 subplot would also tie into the whole family dynamic, as Sela has been personally thwarted by Data multiple times and using "family" to strike against him would be in keeping with the Romulans.
No one cared about Khan until Wrath of Khan either... No one cared about David Marcus until he got knifed by a Klingon, protecting Saavik and Spock...
I agree that having Sela in Nemesis would have worked nicely for Star Trek fans who know who she is, but for a brand-new sit-down audience, she would have been just another new face on the screen, like Donatra was... Donatra was a more-than-compelling character in her solo appearance, so I don't think that a new villain is necessarily a bad thing if they stand up to the needs of the plot. Shinzon served that plot, because he was a clone of Picard, and what Picard saw in Shinzon (or rather wanted to see in Shinzon, was the sense of familial continuation he lost when his brother and nephew died. I agree, Sela would have been perfectly adequate, but so was what we were given, IMHO...
Yeah, essentially including Sela would have the same problem for the casual moviegoer audience as using B'etor and Lursa in Generations. Considering I was five when TNG wrapped, I didn't have any damn clue who they were when I rented the movie from Netflix. I just saw a couple Klingon chicks who needed to loosen their corsets a few notches so their brains would get more oxygen. :P
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
That's certainly how the Borg Queen seen in VOY has become. I think some of the issue is trying to translate a concept like the collective into something which audiences will find relatable, and not quite getting the balance right. I think her description of herself in First Contact were perfect: She is the One Who is Many. She is [an avatar of]the Collective. But, over-exposure ammended how she was handled, and Braga lost control of his creation (assuming she was his character, and not one of Ronald Moore's...)
Even in FC that wasn't true. As @starswordc pointed out, Moore intented that she's a literal character. She owns the Borg as a private army and is a individual. I have several headcanon attempts to justify it, but ultimately it's a huge writing **** up. The concept of the Borg as introduced was simply dropped and changed for dramatic effect.
Honestly.... I EXPECTED this to happen. Back before DS9 was even on TV... See, the forced nature of the Borg assimilation was why I concluded that logically there was a creator of the Borg lurking in the darkness of the universe telling them what to do(if only in a vague way).
why did Q not mention it? As if Q ever gave anyone comprehensive information.... Q told people what he felt like, IF he felt like it.
We know that the Q have rules, and that Q has been punished for breaking them. If (and this is a Big If, I admit) they have an equivalent of the Prime Directive, he may not have been able to mention it...
As the old adage goes; Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day - Teach a man to fish, and he eats for a lifetime...
Perhaps Q was bound by rules preventing him from specifically telling Picard and Co all about the Borg... But if he were to simply move the Enterprise, and they take scans and make observations of what they encounter*, well, that isn't telling them all about the Borg, is it
*which just so happens, accidentally on purpose of course, to be a Borg cube...
Well, we do know that the Q DO have some rules like that, but not what they are.
I'm sorry I didn't reply earlier, I didn't see your post right away as I posted right after you did Absolutely, the collective is not meant to be in her, she is meant to Be Of the Collective... But they lost sight of that in VOY and started treating her like an individual...
Q, Who simply gave a look at the Borg. Riker thought that the Borg started implanting technology onto babies soon after birth (completely against the concept of the Borg simply assimilating new bodies, no need for procreation) but that unit he found the baby in, was later explained to be a maturation chamber, so it can't be taken as 100% literal, in light of future revelations about the Borg
As Picard then stated with regards his experience on a/the cube in Best of Both Worlds: "You were there all along!" So just because she wasn't seen in Q, Who, doesn't mean that she wasn't there all along too (although probably with a slightly different chassis...)
Without the Borg Queen, the Cube in First Contact would just have been 'a cube', and the crew of the Enterprise already defeated one of those with the 'sleep hack'... That's not really going to cut in on the Big Screen, so I can see why they took the decision they did in creating the Queen for a more 'audience friendly experience'
I completely disagree. In my opinion there's no explanation for anything but a misconception of The Borg (singular). Originally it was a plot device, a parable. A humanoid species that became so dependant on technology they not only sacrificed their individual lives but their whole existence was based around the collection/assimilation of technology (no people were assimilated back then) was completely in-line with the technosceptical tone Star Trek had from the very beginning. The futility of resistance was also two fold - literally because The Borg was a entity that could be overcome by weapons and violence and figuratively because Humanity was and still is on that course to seek ways to fuse with machines. It was a glimpse at a possible future of humanity and a dearly needed cautionary note for the Federation and mankind provided by Q.
The creation of Locutus was something unique. Had the Queen been there, Locutus would be pointless. His name means literally "He Who Talks" and his purpose was rather well established. Having the Queen makes the whole plot of Best of Both Worlds obsolete. Of course all of this was retconned later, but if you watch Q,Who or BoBW the Borg Queen doesn't exist. It's not true at this point as it wasn't written this way. What happened later was the writers confused the popularity of the Borg episodes with the desire or necessity to make them a villian with actual evil motivation. So they created the Queen who is as emotional as you can get who has a personal vendetta first with Picard, later with Janeway - if we're honest, as @lordrezon already said, Star Trek is extremely uncreative when it comes to "villians" - literally every single Star Trek movie, with the exception of 1 and 4, is a revenge story and they're not really good at it. It's always a villian nobody heard of, driven by blind hatred that of course leads ultimately to their doom.
The Queen was probably necessary to make FC work, but the choice to make The Borg into a villian was wrong from the get go. The concept doesn't work and ultimately ruined a good sci-fi story in favour of having another action movie.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Destiny trilogy did what I thought was a fairly nice job of book-ending the borg, showing their origins and roots both technologically and psychologically, and also FINALLY put a stake in their heart so the novels could actually MOVE ON.
I'm sorry I didn't reply earlier, I didn't see your post right away as I posted right after you did Absolutely, the collective is not meant to be in her, she is meant to Be Of the Collective... But they lost sight of that in VOY and started treating her like an individual...
Q, Who simply gave a look at the Borg. Riker thought that the Borg started implanting technology onto babies soon after birth (completely against the concept of the Borg simply assimilating new bodies, no need for procreation) but that unit he found the baby in, was later explained to be a maturation chamber, so it can't be taken as 100% literal, in light of future revelations about the Borg
As Picard then stated with regards his experience on a/the cube in Best of Both Worlds: "You were there all along!" So just because she wasn't seen in Q, Who, doesn't mean that she wasn't there all along too (although probably with a slightly different chassis...)
Without the Borg Queen, the Cube in First Contact would just have been 'a cube', and the crew of the Enterprise already defeated one of those with the 'sleep hack'... That's not really going to cut in on the Big Screen, so I can see why they took the decision they did in creating the Queen for a more 'audience friendly experience'
I completely disagree. In my opinion there's no explanation for anything but a misconception of The Borg (singular). Originally it was a plot device, a parable. A humanoid species that became so dependant on technology they not only sacrificed their individual lives but their whole existence was based around the collection/assimilation of technology (no people were assimilated back then) was completely in-line with the technosceptical tone Star Trek had from the very beginning. The futility of resistance was also two fold - literally because The Borg was a entity that could be overcome by weapons and violence and figuratively because Humanity was and still is on that course to seek ways to fuse with machines. It was a glimpse at a possible future of humanity and a dearly needed cautionary note for the Federation and mankind provided by Q.
And that's your prerogative to disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that subsequent episodes/film featuring the Borg, clarified and explained things about the Borg which were not fully understood by Picard and co at the time; ie Baby Borg... Not a lifeform generated by procreation, but what was quite likely taken from an expectant mother when she was assimilated... Recall the episode of VOY when they introduced the Borg kids and the maturation chambers...
Now with regard the boldened section, I agree with you completely.
The creation of Locutus was something unique. Had the Queen been there, Locutus would be pointless. His name means literally "He Who Talks" and his purpose was rather well established. Having the Queen makes the whole plot of Best of Both Worlds obsolete.
You're completely missing the point of Locutus' existence. Locutus was created to bridge the gap between Humanity and the Borg. To be the Collective's 'Terran Ambassador'... Resistance is futile... That's the threat. But in actuality, we know that resistance is not futile... If the Collective loses more resources than it gains in an assimilation sortie, then logically, that would need addressing and remedying. So the Collective did what the US Military did with Uncle Sam and Captain America: It created a posterboy. An example of why joining the Collective is something to be embraced, not feared...
The Queen cannot serve as an ambassador to other would-be drones, because to them, she is the face of the enemy, so an intermediary, someone (or rather an avatar/extension of the Collective, from that culture, not solely from the Collective) is needed to speak for the Collective, ergo, He Who Speaks... A friendly, well-known respected face, ie the captain of the Federation's flagship... The existence of Locutus sends the message: He likes being assimilated, you will too!! Resistance is futile, so don't make it hard on yourself...
This was why the Queen (or rather the Collective speaking through her) was so angry when Picard thought that she wanted him as a counterpart and snapped that he flattered himself. That was not merely a defensive retort, it was a statement of denial and correction because he was wrong... Because he had forgotten his purpose as Locutus... Because his Human mind attributed values and motivations to an alien Collective*, rather than comprehending and recalling that he had been its posterboy. Nothing more, nothing less... Just because Picard (or Riker) says something, does not automatically make it so (no pun intended) because they can be unreliable narrators...
Of course all of this was retconned later, but if you watch Q,Who or BoBW the Borg Queen doesn't exist. It's not true at this point as it wasn't written this way.
Exactly, and because it was retconned, we have to then view those first encounters with a different perspective: Baby Borg's 'crib' becomes/always was a maturation chamber, etc...
What happened later was the writers confused the popularity of the Borg episodes with the desire or necessity to make them a villian with actual evil motivation.
if we're honest, as @lordrezon already said, Star Trek is extremely uncreative when it comes to "villians" - literally every single Star Trek movie, with the exception of 1 and 4, is a revenge story and they're not really good at it. It's always a villian nobody heard of, driven by blind hatred that of course leads ultimately to their doom.
Which could really, be said about many, if not most, movie villains...
The Queen was probably necessary to make FC work, but the choice to make The Borg into a villian was wrong from the get go. The concept doesn't work and ultimately ruined a good sci-fi story in favour of having another action movie.
I agree, it was the wrong choice to make, but I don't think it ruined the story... That my interpretation of the story had to change, on the other hoof, is a different matter altogether...
*And which I just thought, might even create an avatar in the Queen in an attempt to ease a person's moments before assimilation. She said herself that she had overseen the assimilate of millions... Why personally oversee something so mundane? But if she was there as a 'comfort drone', a friendly face, a soft voice and a soothing touch, that would possibly have a soothing effect on a panicking abductee, and a moment of kindness would do a lot to quiet the mind and thus smooth the process... I've always admitted, I was immediately captivated and enthralled by the Borg Queen. What if that was always intended to be one of her Avatar's purposes...?
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Essentially, thanks to having early warning via Q and winning a couple early victories, the Federation was able to adapt to the Borg instead of the other way around. All the Borg have really been shown to adapt to is directed energy weapons, and then only temporarily, whereas Starfleet altered its entire approach, philosophically and technologically. And by STO, the logical conclusion of meeting every species by attempting to conquer by force has been reached: most of the easy targets have already been assimilated and they've now antagonized multiple opponents close enough to their own level to go toe-to-toe with them.
However, this also means that, the Borg being constitutionally incapable of having any foreign policy other than "you will be assimilated", I expect (and request) their complete annihilation to take place at some point.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
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The Borg obviously. Everybody else loses as the KT and PT Borg would be identical.
The attack on the Kelvin changed the balance of power and relationships between the Federation, Klingon Empire, and the Romulan Star Empire and probably a few minor powers. It wouldn't affect the Borg. It's not a Mirror Universe.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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That's not at all how the Borg we see in canon operate. The Queen is a moody brat vampire queen and directly controls her personal army. She verbally adresses inidividual Borg to do stuff. Current canon Borg are as far from the concept of a hive mind as you can be.
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— Sabaton, "Great War"
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They wouldn't need to cross timelines as the Borg already exist over there.
The only way I would be interested in this is if they decided to take advantage of the reboot status to do away with the whole "Queen" nonsense and stop treating them like an insect hierarchy. I would much rather they return back to being a single collective hive mind where all individuals are equal in servitude of the whole."
I agree a 100%, I hated the Borg Queen, she ruined the Borg, turned them into 1 dimesional evil, instead of the original more nuanced approach of Locutus, who promoted the idea that the goal for the Borg was to raise the standard of life for all beings, they weren't just bawahahaha evil that they became with the Borg queen, there were shades of grey. The only good thing after that was Seven of Nine and the Borg Cooperative.
And as you said, it destroyed the whole collective thing, when its clear its not a collective, but a massive group enslaved by Borg Queens.
Although to be fair its an excellent depiction of Feminism ;p
To be fair the Hugh plotline wasn't great either.
It why I go against the grain and say First Contact was the worst Star Trek movie ever.
PS: Now that I think of the Borg Queen and her non collective, collective as an analogy for modern feminism, it makes it way more interesting to me now. I just had this ephany writing this, so my perpective on the Borg has radically changed. That's the second race that is a great analogy for feminism, the other being the Drow from the Forgotten Realms.
I'm actually surprised at this but they apparently co-wrote her. Ron Moore saw her as a literal character in her own right, not merely an anthropomorphic personification.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
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Unless they ar really shown to be adaptable at some point, and thye alter their approach finally.
Because I could see that some people would volunteer to be assimilated. Being part of a huge hive mind might be a fascinating experience (temporarily or permanently). But even people that might be interesting in it won't appreciate it if you force it to others that are not.
Maybe they have assimilated enough Federation citizens by now to find a solution to their problem - diplomacy instead of force.
It's also one of the reasons why I find the Borg / Federation comparisons so incredibly flawed. Yes, the Federatinon wants you as a member and will "assimilate" you. But only if you agree with their core values. You aren't forced into submission.
Yes, you can't be a member if you don't agree on these core aspects, but the Federation only works because its members do agree on a few key issues (and not even all issues - Vulcans, Andorians and Humans have pretty different cultures, but they still work together in the Federation.) Saying this is the same as the Borg is missing the whole point.
You could just as well say: "There are laws in a dictatorship and there are laws in a democracy, hence they are the same thing and they are equally good or bad".
But maybe the Borg can change. People that want to join a collective conciousness could be invited to volunartily join. Maybe the Borg could even allow people to leave the hive again. Some of them might actually become ambassadors of the hive mind.
Of course, such a change would remove the Borg as antagonist for the most part.
Even in FC that wasn't true. As @starswordc pointed out, Moore intented that she's a literal character. She owns the Borg as a private army and is a individual. I have several headcanon attempts to justify it, but ultimately it's a huge writing TRIBBLE up. The concept of the Borg as introduced was simply dropped and changed for dramatic effect.
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To be fair, the original concept of the Borg (other than the bluegills) was of an insect-hive, and all hives have a ...: wink: I think all the material to take her in precisely that way, is in her early exchange with Data (depending on your point of view) but yeah, they really messed things up when they turned the Borg into Mad Kathy's punching bag
Well, I am not sure you could make out an author's handwriting so easily on a single character, but I'd like to point out that one of Moore's influence on DS9 might have been the more complex characters, both for protagonists and antagonists. So it might not be a surprise that he treated the Queen as a fully fledged character.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
But the collective isn't supposed to be in her. She controls it. No metalevel here, she is a literal individual
The original insect and queen concept was changed enough. Q, Who introduced the Borg as they were meant to be in Star Trek - the problem is that they simply ignored that for "Descent" in parts and completely for FC and VOY
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why did Q not mention it? As if Q ever gave anyone comprehensive information.... Q told people what he felt like, IF he felt like it.
My character Tsin'xing
I'm sorry I didn't reply earlier, I didn't see your post right away as I posted right after you did
Q, Who simply gave a look at the Borg. Riker thought that the Borg started implanting technology onto babies soon after birth (completely against the concept of the Borg simply assimilating new bodies, no need for procreation) but that unit he found the baby in, was later explained to be a maturation chamber, so it can't be taken as 100% literal, in light of future revelations about the Borg
As Picard then stated with regards his experience on a/the cube in Best of Both Worlds: "You were there all along!" So just because she wasn't seen in Q, Who, doesn't mean that she wasn't there all along too (although probably with a slightly different chassis...)
Without the Borg Queen, the Cube in First Contact would just have been 'a cube', and the crew of the Enterprise already defeated one of those with the 'sleep hack'... That's not really going to cut in on the Big Screen, so I can see why they took the decision they did in creating the Queen for a more 'audience friendly experience'
As the old adage goes; Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day - Teach a man to fish, and he eats for a lifetime...
Perhaps Q was bound by rules preventing him from specifically telling Picard and Co all about the Borg... But if he were to simply move the Enterprise, and they take scans and make observations of what they encounter*, well, that isn't telling them all about the Borg, is it
*which just so happens, accidentally on purpose of course, to be a Borg cube...
This situation isn't even limited to the Borg, each of the TNG movies has tried to go with a foe for the hero to fight and banter with. Since the start of the TNG-era of movies we have been bombarded by one throw away villain after another; Soran, Borg Queen, Ru'afo, Shinzon, Nero, Khan 2.0, Krall... chances are pretty good the next movie will probably have another one as well.
The really sad part is that it didn't have to come to this. For example, imagine how ST: Nemesis would have been if Sela had been the villain instead of a nobody like Shinzon. Her past history with the cast would have made for a much more compelling drama, complete with her half-human nature being a source of tension among her allies. It would have even tied much better into the Data-B4 subplot. Data's goal has never really been to become human, but rather to be a part of a family/community. Tasha Yar was his first romantic partner, which would mean that killing Sela would be like killing the last remnant of Tasha. The B4 subplot would also tie into the whole family dynamic, as Sela has been personally thwarted by Data multiple times and using "family" to strike against him would be in keeping with the Romulans.
I agree that having Sela in Nemesis would have worked nicely for Star Trek fans who know who she is, but for a brand-new sit-down audience, she would have been just another new face on the screen, like Donatra was... Donatra was a more-than-compelling character in her solo appearance, so I don't think that a new villain is necessarily a bad thing if they stand up to the needs of the plot. Shinzon served that plot, because he was a clone of Picard, and what Picard saw in Shinzon (or rather wanted to see in Shinzon, was the sense of familial continuation he lost when his brother and nephew died. I agree, Sela would have been perfectly adequate, but so was what we were given, IMHO...
Yeah, essentially including Sela would have the same problem for the casual moviegoer audience as using B'etor and Lursa in Generations. Considering I was five when TNG wrapped, I didn't have any damn clue who they were when I rented the movie from Netflix. I just saw a couple Klingon chicks who needed to loosen their corsets a few notches so their brains would get more oxygen. :P
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
My character Tsin'xing
I completely disagree. In my opinion there's no explanation for anything but a misconception of The Borg (singular). Originally it was a plot device, a parable. A humanoid species that became so dependant on technology they not only sacrificed their individual lives but their whole existence was based around the collection/assimilation of technology (no people were assimilated back then) was completely in-line with the technosceptical tone Star Trek had from the very beginning. The futility of resistance was also two fold - literally because The Borg was a entity that could be overcome by weapons and violence and figuratively because Humanity was and still is on that course to seek ways to fuse with machines. It was a glimpse at a possible future of humanity and a dearly needed cautionary note for the Federation and mankind provided by Q.
The creation of Locutus was something unique. Had the Queen been there, Locutus would be pointless. His name means literally "He Who Talks" and his purpose was rather well established. Having the Queen makes the whole plot of Best of Both Worlds obsolete. Of course all of this was retconned later, but if you watch Q,Who or BoBW the Borg Queen doesn't exist. It's not true at this point as it wasn't written this way. What happened later was the writers confused the popularity of the Borg episodes with the desire or necessity to make them a villian with actual evil motivation. So they created the Queen who is as emotional as you can get who has a personal vendetta first with Picard, later with Janeway - if we're honest, as @lordrezon already said, Star Trek is extremely uncreative when it comes to "villians" - literally every single Star Trek movie, with the exception of 1 and 4, is a revenge story and they're not really good at it. It's always a villian nobody heard of, driven by blind hatred that of course leads ultimately to their doom.
The Queen was probably necessary to make FC work, but the choice to make The Borg into a villian was wrong from the get go. The concept doesn't work and ultimately ruined a good sci-fi story in favour of having another action movie.
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Now with regard the boldened section, I agree with you completely.
You're completely missing the point of Locutus' existence. Locutus was created to bridge the gap between Humanity and the Borg. To be the Collective's 'Terran Ambassador'... Resistance is futile... That's the threat. But in actuality, we know that resistance is not futile... If the Collective loses more resources than it gains in an assimilation sortie, then logically, that would need addressing and remedying. So the Collective did what the US Military did with Uncle Sam and Captain America: It created a posterboy. An example of why joining the Collective is something to be embraced, not feared...
The Queen cannot serve as an ambassador to other would-be drones, because to them, she is the face of the enemy, so an intermediary, someone (or rather an avatar/extension of the Collective, from that culture, not solely from the Collective) is needed to speak for the Collective, ergo, He Who Speaks... A friendly, well-known respected face, ie the captain of the Federation's flagship... The existence of Locutus sends the message: He likes being assimilated, you will too!! Resistance is futile, so don't make it hard on yourself...
This was why the Queen (or rather the Collective speaking through her) was so angry when Picard thought that she wanted him as a counterpart and snapped that he flattered himself. That was not merely a defensive retort, it was a statement of denial and correction because he was wrong... Because he had forgotten his purpose as Locutus... Because his Human mind attributed values and motivations to an alien Collective*, rather than comprehending and recalling that he had been its posterboy. Nothing more, nothing less... Just because Picard (or Riker) says something, does not automatically make it so (no pun intended) because they can be unreliable narrators...
Exactly, and because it was retconned, we have to then view those first encounters with a different perspective: Baby Borg's 'crib' becomes/always was a maturation chamber, etc...
Precisely...
Indeed... As a character/muse/plot device, she 'jumped the shark'...
Which could really, be said about many, if not most, movie villains...
I agree, it was the wrong choice to make, but I don't think it ruined the story... That my interpretation of the story had to change, on the other hoof, is a different matter altogether...
*And which I just thought, might even create an avatar in the Queen in an attempt to ease a person's moments before assimilation. She said herself that she had overseen the assimilate of millions... Why personally oversee something so mundane? But if she was there as a 'comfort drone', a friendly face, a soft voice and a soothing touch, that would possibly have a soothing effect on a panicking abductee, and a moment of kindness would do a lot to quiet the mind and thus smooth the process... I've always admitted, I was immediately captivated and enthralled by the Borg Queen. What if that was always intended to be one of her Avatar's purposes...?