I'm pretty sick of seeing this argument of "It's on them". PWE/Cryptic made a decision to release the ship in this way. That decision is -theirs-. If people don't like that decision, they are allowed that, every bit as much as you are allowed to be fine with it. This rarity is artificial. Every other Enterprise ship model can be picked up relatively easily, but the one that started it all, the one that many of us have been begging for since launch, which we were repeatedly told we would never get? That one is only available through rare drop in a limited time offer.
I think this was a serious jerk move, made jerkier by the fact that they pulled it a good while after letting people think the JJ Connie was all they were going to get. Sure, a lot of us were holding out hope, but they sure weren't about to say anything and undercut the sales of those master keys.
Funny thing is, I have the ship, and I love flying it, but you know why I have it?
Because a friend of mine, who was a lifetime sub from a long way back, lost interest in the game because of these kind of shenanigans, and so his account had acquired a decent cache of zen from his abandoned stipend, so when he heard about this, he came back to dump it on some boxes, got lucky, and gave me the ship. I have mine through the charity of one of the casualties of PWE's business practices.
You might not give a ****. That's fine, you're not obligated to. But people are allowed to be annoyed when PWE's business practices block them off from accessing game content that they've been lobbying for for years, and we're also allowed to say so if we think these practices are toxic for the game and the community in the long run.
You can cry and complain all you like, it is what it is. Again, no one is blocking anyone from buying a T6 Connie. They are in-game and they are available to everyone. Either pony up the funds to buy one or don't.
Nobody's "crying", but way to be needlessly dismissive.
When a business makes a decision that is against the best interest of its customers in order to make an extra buck, the customers have a right to complain.
Yeah, it's available. For a huge sunk cost in time and resources. A sunk cost that many casual players literally can't afford. That's the point: We think it's overpriced.
And it's also a paradigm shift. No main-universe federation cruiser (Or KDF battlecruiser, or Romulan warbird, for that matter) has ever been gated behind a lottery box before, and honestly, I do not want this to become the new standard for how regular faction ships are delivered to us in the future.
No...no you don't. Do you think you have a right to complain that a porche costs too much and is it's against the best interest of it's customer when you are NOT A CUSTOMER but just some rube who can't afford one drooling over one? This item aint for EVERYONE...it's for the premier players that either have a lot of time invested in this game or money...or both. By a lot of time, I mean actively play the game for at least one hour a day for 3 years with minimal effort put into the game. That is what is required to have BILLIONS of EC. If that ain't you...then you ain't a customer and you have zero rights to complain. And what is this WE comment? YOU think it is overpriced...in which case, YOU choose to not buy it. Those who can't afford it can't buy it. Those of us who don't want it won't buy it...and those who want it and can afford it WILL buy it and be glad that the can at all. It is not toxic to the community unless the community is already toxic. This forum is...the game community thankfully is not this forum and knows better then to be toxic players like you.
The T6 connie is not a Porche. It did not require any more engineering or higher quality of materials than any random C-store or lockbox ship. It didn't even require new art assets, which means it was -less- work for them.
Porches are expensive because of their quality and their reputation earned by the expert engineers that the company hires to design their cars. (And because you have to physically ship them across an ocean to drive them on the american continent)
I'm pretty sick of seeing this argument of "It's on them". PWE/Cryptic made a decision to release the ship in this way. That decision is -theirs-. If people don't like that decision, they are allowed that, every bit as much as you are allowed to be fine with it. This rarity is artificial. Every other Enterprise ship model can be picked up relatively easily, but the one that started it all, the one that many of us have been begging for since launch, which we were repeatedly told we would never get? That one is only available through rare drop in a limited time offer.
I think this was a serious jerk move, made jerkier by the fact that they pulled it a good while after letting people think the JJ Connie was all they were going to get. Sure, a lot of us were holding out hope, but they sure weren't about to say anything and undercut the sales of those master keys.
Funny thing is, I have the ship, and I love flying it, but you know why I have it?
Because a friend of mine, who was a lifetime sub from a long way back, lost interest in the game because of these kind of shenanigans, and so his account had acquired a decent cache of zen from his abandoned stipend, so when he heard about this, he came back to dump it on some boxes, got lucky, and gave me the ship. I have mine through the charity of one of the casualties of PWE's business practices.
You might not give a ****. That's fine, you're not obligated to. But people are allowed to be annoyed when PWE's business practices block them off from accessing game content that they've been lobbying for for years, and we're also allowed to say so if we think these practices are toxic for the game and the community in the long run.
You can cry and complain all you like, it is what it is. Again, no one is blocking anyone from buying a T6 Connie. They are in-game and they are available to everyone. Either pony up the funds to buy one or don't.
Nobody's "crying", but way to be needlessly dismissive.
When a business makes a decision that is against the best interest of its customers in order to make an extra buck, the customers have a right to complain.
Yeah, it's available. For a huge sunk cost in time and resources. A sunk cost that many casual players literally can't afford. That's the point: We think it's overpriced.
And it's also a paradigm shift. No main-universe federation cruiser (Or KDF battlecruiser, or Romulan warbird, for that matter) has ever been gated behind a lottery box before, and honestly, I do not want this to become the new standard for how regular faction ships are delivered to us in the future.
No...no you don't. Do you think you have a right to complain that a porche costs too much and is it's against the best interest of it's customer when you are NOT A CUSTOMER but just some rube who can't afford one drooling over one? This item aint for EVERYONE...it's for the premier players that either have a lot of time invested in this game or money...or both. By a lot of time, I mean actively play the game for at least one hour a day for 3 years with minimal effort put into the game. That is what is required to have BILLIONS of EC. If that ain't you...then you ain't a customer and you have zero rights to complain. And what is this WE comment? YOU think it is overpriced...in which case, YOU choose to not buy it. Those who can't afford it can't buy it. Those of us who don't want it won't buy it...and those who want it and can afford it WILL buy it and be glad that the can at all. It is not toxic to the community unless the community is already toxic. This forum is...the game community thankfully is not this forum and knows better then to be toxic players like you.
The T6 connie is not a Porche. It did not require any more engineering or higher quality of materials than any random C-store or lockbox ship. It didn't even require new art assets, which means it was -less- work for them.
Porches are expensive because of their quality and their reputation earned by the expert engineers that the company hires to design their cars. (And because you have to physically ship them across an ocean to drive them on the american continent)
This is a spreadsheet.
Then use oakley or rayban sunglasses as an example. Some people buy $10 sunglasses. Some can buy $300 sunglasses.
When you see "TRIBBLE" in my posts, it's because I manually typed "TRIBBLE" and censored myself.
This ship used 100% pre-existing art assets. The only dev work that went into this is the same numerical design and balancing work that goes into literally every other ship in the game. It was LESS work for the devs than any given lockbox or c-store ship.
That's incorrect. Tomas Marrone was brought in to completely revamp and improve the TOS Constitution Class ship model for Agents of Yesterday and for this promotion in particular.
It's only "premium" because they have chosen to limit its availability.
That is how collectible hobbies function.
This is less a 5 star restaurant and more like a convenience store that decided to start carrying pepsi products, but makes them 4 times as expensive as coke products because they know Pepsi is more popular with their customer base.
It's far more like Cryptic decided to mark up the price of X-Men #128 to a premium price because everyone wants that one more than issue #127.
If it does, it's because there are too many people around here willing to blindly put up with it.
This is where I see a pretty big disconnect in the point you are trying to make. You say people are blindly putting up with this terrible terrible business practice. Whereas I see people just moving their "collection" tendencies to a digital format, ala Digital Trading Cards or Marvel Contest of Champions. And this list is a pretty clear indication that the people playing this game 6 years in are not blind to the fact:
Well, I was lucky a friend of mine (thanks Scarlet!), who opened 4 or 5 RD packs, and got THREE promos from that. She kept one for herself, and gave the other 2 to myself and a friend of hers.
If I get lucky and get some myself, I'll be either giving them away, or selling HALF price.
That's incorrect. Tomas Marrone was brought in to completely revamp and improve the TOS Constitution Class ship model for Agents of Yesterday and for this promotion in particular.
Which is being sold in the C-store for $5, or as part of both Temporal Agent packs. So they were already making money off of it.
There are plenty of things I want but cannot afford, and none of it makes me a "victim" of anything unfair. Such is life. Rarity achieved by arbitrary restriction of supply or % chance is no less valid than any other.
That's incorrect. Tomas Marrone was brought in to completely revamp and improve the TOS Constitution Class ship model for Agents of Yesterday and for this promotion in particular.
Which is being sold in the C-store for $5, or as part of both Temporal Agent packs. So they were already making money off of it.
That is however assuming that they actually make sufficient money to justify their cost with the low tier ships. It's basically a loss leader to get you a taste for the real, Tier 6 variant. The Tier 6 variant that also comes with a lot of customization options because you can mix parts with the Tier 2 variant.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
.... Whereas I see people just moving their "collection" tendencies to a digital format, ala Digital Trading Cards or Marvel Contest of Champions. ....
^ This is exactly what is happening. There were all kinds of vendors at the Star Trek Mission NY convention selling "digital" Star Trek items, like digital trading cards and such.
I'm far enough away from the project now to drop this fun little "epic fail" of my own career. This year my company (and me in particular) got to pitch and make a proposal to develop a mobile app for Star Trek digital trading cards. It was one of the coolest projects I ever pitched. It pretty much brought together almost every interest I have in one fell swoop and plugged it directly into my day to day job.
We didn't get the project. And it's good to know that other competitors have taken the idea and done something with it. (Though the company I pitched to hasn't moved on their idea yet).
It was really fascinating because I learned a lot about how the Star Trek license CAN work for a company (not saying this is how it works for Cryptic, because the products are vastly different, but still it was amazing and awesome to peek behind the curtain so to speak). And it was the first meeting EVER where I got to answer questions about hosting and data management as well as which episode Quatloos appeared in!
I really wish we had gotten a chance to move forward with that.
/sigh
But yeah, the whole concept of the product was going to hinge on rarity. And what people would do to chase rarity. Just like real live trading cards. There are so many similarities with this topic of discussion.
Oh and about restaurants...line chefs at pf changs makes the same as a line chef at gary dankos...if you think the person making your food is more skilled at a high end restaurant, you are a fool. If you want that, you need to go to small family owned restaurants where the owner is the chef and they make the food directly.
Or if you believe Chuck Nice on Star Talk radio ads, you just need to order from Blue Apron and cook it yourself following their instructions!
It's not the amount of money or time that really makes this kind of thing a scummy business practice guys. It's the RNG nature of it. When you buy something from the C-Store, even something expensive, you get what you pay for. But with these insidious gamble boxes you end up spending much more than it's apparent price to get it. The RNG nature of it also often blinds people to how much more they are paying for it as well. Basically this is a mechanism designed to inflate the price of items by ludicrous amounts without alerting the player to what's being done to them. It is disgusting, unsavory, and should be illegal. Especially in a game where customers are underage as often as they're adults with income.
It's not the amount of money or time that really makes this kind of thing a scummy business practice guys. It's the RNG nature of it. When you buy something from the C-Store, even something expensive, you get what you pay for. But with these insidious gamble boxes you end up spending much more than it's apparent price to get it. The RNG nature of it also often blinds people to how much more they are paying for it as well. Basically this is a mechanism designed to inflate the price of items by ludicrous amounts without alerting the player to what's being done to them. It is disgusting, unsavory, and should be illegal. Especially in a game where customers are underage as often as they're adults with income.
Please tell me how that underage customer is making online payments? There's got to be an adult in the loop.
This is a good example of theory vs practice. In theory, it's RNG gambling of the sort you describe; in practice the structure of the game means it doesn't have to be.
Firstly, gamble items are totally peripheral to the game. If you want to grief yourself going for them, it's a choice, but it's not like there aren't plenty of alternatives.
Secondly, you *know* you're wasting money on a game. That again is a choice. Unlike casinos, there's no chance to win a real reward or even anything that can be traded for real cash (laid out in the TOS).
Thirdly, STO operates trade mechanisms - part of the game - which make it possible to get rare items without, personally, gambling. Yes, someone had to; but the economy of the game is such that it balances out. If Cryptic really wanted to troll, they'd make gamble packs bind on pickup.
Is it a crude mechanism to increase takings? Possibly. But Cryptic's experience would appear to be that the gamble-items are a major part of their revenue, which could not easily be replaced by C-store sales; I presume that as a mechanism it's a very efficient way to exploit the so-called "whales" (read: people with substantial disposable income but limited time) so they fund the game the rest of us play at a very low cost.
Holy ****...did hartz actually say that they are making money for dev time off a 5 dollar c store item?!? Umm...yeah....
I was unaware that a $130 c-store pack doesn't make money.
Actually, it's not and is likely the root of the whole T6 Connie argument.
Now, before I explain, I should make clear that the following is opinion. I don't have sales numbers for Cryptic, I don't have 'inside information' I'm just a player basing my opinions on what I have seen (or not seen) in game. That being said..
Cryptic is a business, we all know that. They don't do things for free, and the point of Agents of Yesterday was to generate revenue, either directly (selling packs) or indirectly (attracting new players that would eventually spend.) But the point was to make money. The C-Store pack absolutely did not seem to be a big seller. I hardly ever see any of these ships around ESD with the exception of the T6 Temporal Ships that are moderately common. When I was leveling my AOY character, it was very noticeable how few of the C-Store pack ships I saw. I believe most players did exactly what I did and just reclaimed T2-T5 ships that they already owned from previous purchase and give away promotions for their AOY characters instead of buying new ships.
It's my personal belief that they sold far less of these packs then they estimated, and that's probably because people just aren't interested in buying low tier ships that you use for a couple missions and then never use again.
This unexpected shortfall was countered in part by the Kelvin Lock Box. The Kelvin Connie and the Vengeance are ships that generated interest and the result is quite clear, they're everywhere. This box likely helped offset the shortfall, but again probably didn't actually make all that much since the Vengeance seems to be the more popular ship and a lot of people did what I did and got one for a grand total of $0 by just using EC that they already had. I'm sure they made some money, but probably didn't break the bank..
Now comes this promotion. They had to put something that people REALLY wanted into a pack to generate money. It's my personal belief that lack of sales of the AOY Packs are the exact reason you're seeing the T6 Connie in a promotion like it is. I understand, this is nothing but conjecture, and obviously there will be differing opinions. To me though, when I saw the T6 Connie promo I just said to myself "that's how they're going to make up the lack of sales.. got it."
Just out of sheer curiosity, is there any significant difference in performance between the T6 TOS Connie and the Kelvin Connie? Because I've been hearing a lot of different things about both of them and I'd like to get some accurate info on them, preferably from someone who owns them both. I have the Kelvin Connie and would like to get the T6 TOS Connie as well, if possible.
Apologies if this has already been addressed in a different thread; please point me to the appropriate thread if applicable.
Oh, OK. I've never used any of the Jem'Hadar ships so I have no experience with the bug ship. Right now all I have is my KT Connie which I gradually saved up the EC for by just grinding and selling some crafted items, materials, and R&D promo boxes. I'm pretty satisfied with it but I've been curious as to how the T6 TOS Connie compares with it.
Comments
The T6 connie is not a Porche. It did not require any more engineering or higher quality of materials than any random C-store or lockbox ship. It didn't even require new art assets, which means it was -less- work for them.
Porches are expensive because of their quality and their reputation earned by the expert engineers that the company hires to design their cars. (And because you have to physically ship them across an ocean to drive them on the american continent)
This is a spreadsheet.
That's incorrect. Tomas Marrone was brought in to completely revamp and improve the TOS Constitution Class ship model for Agents of Yesterday and for this promotion in particular.
That is how collectible hobbies function.
It's far more like Cryptic decided to mark up the price of X-Men #128 to a premium price because everyone wants that one more than issue #127.
This is where I see a pretty big disconnect in the point you are trying to make. You say people are blindly putting up with this terrible terrible business practice. Whereas I see people just moving their "collection" tendencies to a digital format, ala Digital Trading Cards or Marvel Contest of Champions. And this list is a pretty clear indication that the people playing this game 6 years in are not blind to the fact:
• Cardassian Galor Class Cruiser
• Risian Luxury Cruiser
• Undine Dromias Bio-Cruiser
• Voth Bastion Flight-Deck Cruiser
• Voth Bulwark Dreadnought Cruiser
• Breen Chel Grett Warship
• Elachi S'golth Escort
• Hirogen Hunter Heavy Escort
• Jem'Hadar Attack Ship
• Jem'Hadar Heavy Escort Carrier
• Risian corvette
• Tal Shiar Adapted Destroyer
• Undine Nicor Bio-Warship
• Xindi-Reptilian Contortrix Escort
• Elachi Monbosh Battleship
• Ferengi D'Kora Marauder
• Hirogen Apex Heavy Battlecruiser
• Tal Shiar Adapted Battle Cruiser
• Tholian Orb Weaver
• Voth Palisade Science Vessel
• Breen Plesh Brek Heavy Raider
• Advanced Obelisk Carrier
• Jem'Hadar Dreadnought Carrier
• Tholian Recluse Carrier
• Xindi-Aquatic Narcine Dreadnought Carrier
• Benthan Assault Cruiser (T6)
• Kobali Samsar Cruiser (T6)
• Vaadwaur Astika Heavy Battlecruiser (T6)
• Zahl Heavy Cruiser (T6)
• Na'kuhl Acheros Battlecruiser (T6)
• Ferengi Nagus Marauder (T6)
• Hazari Destroyer (T6)
• Vaadwaur Manasa Assault Escort (T6)
• Jem'Hadar Strike Ship (T6)
• Jem'Hadar Recon Ship (T6)
• Xindi-Insectoid Olaen Heavy Escort Carrier (T6)
• Ferengi Nandi Warship (T6)
• Krenim Imperium Warship (T6)
• Vorgon Xyfius Heavy Escort (T6)
• Herald Quas Flight Deck Cruiser (T6)
• Elachi Sheshar Dreadnought Cruiser (T6)
• Tholian Tarantula Dreadnought Cruiser (T6)
• Xindi-Primate Ateleth Dreadnought Cruiser (T6)
• Krenim Annorax Science Dreadnought (T6)
• Breen Rezreth Dreadnought Cruiser T6)
• Paradox Temporal Dreadnought (T6)
• Temporal Dreadnought Cruiser (T6)
• Herald Baltim Heavy Raider (T6)
• Na'kuhl Tadaari Raider (T6)
• Temporal Raider (T6)
• Breen Sarr Theln Carrier (T6)
• Herald Vonph Dreadnought Carrier (T6)
• Krenim Science Vessel (T6)
• Na'kuhl Daemosh Science Vessel (T6)
• Temporal Multi-Mission Science Vessel (T6)
This is the state of the game. For better and for worse.
If I get lucky and get some myself, I'll be either giving them away, or selling HALF price.
Which is being sold in the C-store for $5, or as part of both Temporal Agent packs. So they were already making money off of it.
That is however assuming that they actually make sufficient money to justify their cost with the low tier ships. It's basically a loss leader to get you a taste for the real, Tier 6 variant. The Tier 6 variant that also comes with a lot of customization options because you can mix parts with the Tier 2 variant.
I was unaware that a $130 c-store pack doesn't make money.
I'm far enough away from the project now to drop this fun little "epic fail" of my own career. This year my company (and me in particular) got to pitch and make a proposal to develop a mobile app for Star Trek digital trading cards. It was one of the coolest projects I ever pitched. It pretty much brought together almost every interest I have in one fell swoop and plugged it directly into my day to day job.
We didn't get the project. And it's good to know that other competitors have taken the idea and done something with it. (Though the company I pitched to hasn't moved on their idea yet).
It was really fascinating because I learned a lot about how the Star Trek license CAN work for a company (not saying this is how it works for Cryptic, because the products are vastly different, but still it was amazing and awesome to peek behind the curtain so to speak). And it was the first meeting EVER where I got to answer questions about hosting and data management as well as which episode Quatloos appeared in!
I really wish we had gotten a chance to move forward with that.
/sigh
But yeah, the whole concept of the product was going to hinge on rarity. And what people would do to chase rarity. Just like real live trading cards. There are so many similarities with this topic of discussion.
Or if you believe Chuck Nice on Star Talk radio ads, you just need to order from Blue Apron and cook it yourself following their instructions!
Please tell me how that underage customer is making online payments? There's got to be an adult in the loop.
This is a good example of theory vs practice. In theory, it's RNG gambling of the sort you describe; in practice the structure of the game means it doesn't have to be.
Firstly, gamble items are totally peripheral to the game. If you want to grief yourself going for them, it's a choice, but it's not like there aren't plenty of alternatives.
Secondly, you *know* you're wasting money on a game. That again is a choice. Unlike casinos, there's no chance to win a real reward or even anything that can be traded for real cash (laid out in the TOS).
Thirdly, STO operates trade mechanisms - part of the game - which make it possible to get rare items without, personally, gambling. Yes, someone had to; but the economy of the game is such that it balances out. If Cryptic really wanted to troll, they'd make gamble packs bind on pickup.
Is it a crude mechanism to increase takings? Possibly. But Cryptic's experience would appear to be that the gamble-items are a major part of their revenue, which could not easily be replaced by C-store sales; I presume that as a mechanism it's a very efficient way to exploit the so-called "whales" (read: people with substantial disposable income but limited time) so they fund the game the rest of us play at a very low cost.
Actually, it's not and is likely the root of the whole T6 Connie argument.
Now, before I explain, I should make clear that the following is opinion. I don't have sales numbers for Cryptic, I don't have 'inside information' I'm just a player basing my opinions on what I have seen (or not seen) in game. That being said..
Cryptic is a business, we all know that. They don't do things for free, and the point of Agents of Yesterday was to generate revenue, either directly (selling packs) or indirectly (attracting new players that would eventually spend.) But the point was to make money. The C-Store pack absolutely did not seem to be a big seller. I hardly ever see any of these ships around ESD with the exception of the T6 Temporal Ships that are moderately common. When I was leveling my AOY character, it was very noticeable how few of the C-Store pack ships I saw. I believe most players did exactly what I did and just reclaimed T2-T5 ships that they already owned from previous purchase and give away promotions for their AOY characters instead of buying new ships.
It's my personal belief that they sold far less of these packs then they estimated, and that's probably because people just aren't interested in buying low tier ships that you use for a couple missions and then never use again.
This unexpected shortfall was countered in part by the Kelvin Lock Box. The Kelvin Connie and the Vengeance are ships that generated interest and the result is quite clear, they're everywhere. This box likely helped offset the shortfall, but again probably didn't actually make all that much since the Vengeance seems to be the more popular ship and a lot of people did what I did and got one for a grand total of $0 by just using EC that they already had. I'm sure they made some money, but probably didn't break the bank..
Now comes this promotion. They had to put something that people REALLY wanted into a pack to generate money. It's my personal belief that lack of sales of the AOY Packs are the exact reason you're seeing the T6 Connie in a promotion like it is. I understand, this is nothing but conjecture, and obviously there will be differing opinions. To me though, when I saw the T6 Connie promo I just said to myself "that's how they're going to make up the lack of sales.. got it."
As bitter as some people have been that didn't want to go this established route I can understand Cryptic not running this promo ever again.
I hope that's what the bitter people wanted, seems self defeating to me.
That said, I believe the T6 Sovereign release will use a similar method as people have been clamoring for that as well.
I hope the bitter people are nicer about that one, but I won't hold my breath.
Should have gotten the T6 Connie while they can.
Apologies if this has already been addressed in a different thread; please point me to the appropriate thread if applicable.
I have both.
They are correctly priced.