Warp, your view is, well, warped by your willful misinterpretation of the data.
We were shown, both on the TV episode and in-game, that the Kobali virus cannot infect living tissue. (That's one of the reasons why a Kobali was able to wander freely through Voyager without infecting anyone aboard. It's also why they have to wait until a Vaadwaur cryotube fails before converting the late Vaad inside to Kobali.) Nothing is done "forcibly", as has been repeatedly pointed out, save in the sense that a virus "forcibly" infects tissue - in which case you might as well be calling for the eradication of the bacteria responsible for the decay process in dead organic beings, because the bacteria "forcibly invade" the corpse.
Your argument is inaccurate and specious. And I suspect that you know this.
Warp, your view is, well, warped by your willful misinterpretation of the data.
We were shown, both on the TV episode and in-game, that the Kobali virus cannot infect living tissue. (That's one of the reasons why a Kobali was able to wander freely through Voyager without infecting anyone aboard. It's also why they have to wait until a Vaadwaur cryotube fails before converting the late Vaad inside to Kobali.) Nothing is done "forcibly", as has been repeatedly pointed out, save in the sense that a virus "forcibly" infects tissue - in which case you might as well be calling for the eradication of the bacteria responsible for the decay process in dead organic beings, because the bacteria "forcibly invade" the corpse.
Your argument is inaccurate and specious. And I suspect that you know this.
I'm not interested in debating fictional definitions of "living tissue." A person who can be revived with his mind intact is not dead.
Except that, no individual has ever been revived by the Kobali with the mind intact. Harry and Lyndsey had fragmentary memories and simply didn't realize that it was only bits and pieces until they had time to adjust.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Warp, your personal, rather quirky definition of "alive" is also irrelevant. The corpses being taken by the Kobali cannot be brought back by any science known to the Federation, the Klingon Empire, the Romulan Republic, or even the rather advanced medical sciences of the Vidiians. They're dead. At worst, their seizure might be "graverobbing", assuming the bodies are actually buried first, but in most cases it seems to be more along the lines of "scavenging". In neither case is "kidnapping" involved. Nor is anyone "brainwashed", something that can be done only to an unwilling living consciousness (and tends not to be terribly successful in the long rung), nor is anything done "forcibly" (else they wouldn't even have procedures to rescue the young who've run off, they'd just keep them restrained).
Your contentions fail basic tests of both logic and canon.
Warp, your view is, well, warped by your willful misinterpretation of the data.
We were shown, both on the TV episode and in-game, that the Kobali virus cannot infect living tissue. (That's one of the reasons why a Kobali was able to wander freely through Voyager without infecting anyone aboard. It's also why they have to wait until a Vaadwaur cryotube fails before converting the late Vaad inside to Kobali.) Nothing is done "forcibly", as has been repeatedly pointed out, save in the sense that a virus "forcibly" infects tissue - in which case you might as well be calling for the eradication of the bacteria responsible for the decay process in dead organic beings, because the bacteria "forcibly invade" the corpse.
Your argument is inaccurate and specious. And I suspect that you know this.
I'm not interested in debating fictional definitions of "living tissue." A person who can be revived with his mind intact is not dead.
But their minds aren't intact. Sure, they retain fragmentary memories of their past life, but those fade very quickly. They aren't the person they were before, mentally or even physiologically. Their entire neural structure is fundamentally different from before.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
Tell that to Jetlya 35 years after she became Kobali and we meet here again in 2410. Seems she retained some pretty good 'fragments' years afterwards.
Post edited by ltminns on
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Warp, your view is, well, warped by your willful misinterpretation of the data.
We were shown, both on the TV episode and in-game, that the Kobali virus cannot infect living tissue. (That's one of the reasons why a Kobali was able to wander freely through Voyager without infecting anyone aboard. It's also why they have to wait until a Vaadwaur cryotube fails before converting the late Vaad inside to Kobali.) Nothing is done "forcibly", as has been repeatedly pointed out, save in the sense that a virus "forcibly" infects tissue - in which case you might as well be calling for the eradication of the bacteria responsible for the decay process in dead organic beings, because the bacteria "forcibly invade" the corpse.
Your argument is inaccurate and specious. And I suspect that you know this.
I'm not interested in debating fictional definitions of "living tissue." A person who can be revived with his mind intact is not dead.
But their minds aren't intact. Sure, they retain fragmentary memories of their past life, but those fade very quickly. They aren't the person they were before, mentally or even physiologically. Their entire neural structure is fundamentally different from before.
And in most cases, such as the dozens or hundreds of Vaadwaur who were converted in STO.... They just don't remember anything.
Warp, your view is, well, warped by your willful misinterpretation of the data.
We were shown, both on the TV episode and in-game, that the Kobali virus cannot infect living tissue. (That's one of the reasons why a Kobali was able to wander freely through Voyager without infecting anyone aboard. It's also why they have to wait until a Vaadwaur cryotube fails before converting the late Vaad inside to Kobali.) Nothing is done "forcibly", as has been repeatedly pointed out, save in the sense that a virus "forcibly" infects tissue - in which case you might as well be calling for the eradication of the bacteria responsible for the decay process in dead organic beings, because the bacteria "forcibly invade" the corpse.
Your argument is inaccurate and specious. And I suspect that you know this.
I'm not interested in debating fictional definitions of "living tissue." A person who can be revived with his mind intact is not dead.
But their minds aren't intact. Sure, they retain fragmentary memories of their past life, but those fade very quickly. They aren't the person they were before, mentally or even physiologically. Their entire neural structure is fundamentally different from before.
Their minds WERE intact, before being subverted by the Kobali. And Lyndsay Ballard shows your very quickly is two years, even just to the point where she stopped being loyal to the Voyager crew. She still has the memories in STO, decades later. "Fragmentary" is Kobali propaganda.
Yes, they aren't the person they were before...but they were at first. That's exactly why it's wrong.
Warp, your view is, well, warped by your willful misinterpretation of the data.
We were shown, both on the TV episode and in-game, that the Kobali virus cannot infect living tissue. (That's one of the reasons why a Kobali was able to wander freely through Voyager without infecting anyone aboard. It's also why they have to wait until a Vaadwaur cryotube fails before converting the late Vaad inside to Kobali.) Nothing is done "forcibly", as has been repeatedly pointed out, save in the sense that a virus "forcibly" infects tissue - in which case you might as well be calling for the eradication of the bacteria responsible for the decay process in dead organic beings, because the bacteria "forcibly invade" the corpse.
Your argument is inaccurate and specious. And I suspect that you know this.
I'm not interested in debating fictional definitions of "living tissue." A person who can be revived with his mind intact is not dead.
But their minds aren't intact. Sure, they retain fragmentary memories of their past life, but those fade very quickly. They aren't the person they were before, mentally or even physiologically. Their entire neural structure is fundamentally different from before.
And in most cases, such as the dozens or hundreds of Vaadwaur who were converted in STO.... They just don't remember anything.
It's been ages since I played Delta Rising but what I remember most clearly about it is that the reasons why we helped the Kobali were two-fold. First, they were a valuable ally in the war against the Vaadwaur, who--as @azrael605 pointed out--were on a campaign hell-bent on subjugating or destroying everyone in the Delta Quadrant. Secondly, the Vaadwaur had created something that was going to exterminate the Kobali for good. So these factors far outweighed whatever moral qualms there were to be had in enabling the Kobali in their grave robbing.
My Foundry Mission--Name: Falling Star | Mission ID: HQIH36HAW | Faction: FED
Warp, your view is, well, warped by your willful misinterpretation of the data.
We were shown, both on the TV episode and in-game, that the Kobali virus cannot infect living tissue. (That's one of the reasons why a Kobali was able to wander freely through Voyager without infecting anyone aboard. It's also why they have to wait until a Vaadwaur cryotube fails before converting the late Vaad inside to Kobali.) Nothing is done "forcibly", as has been repeatedly pointed out, save in the sense that a virus "forcibly" infects tissue - in which case you might as well be calling for the eradication of the bacteria responsible for the decay process in dead organic beings, because the bacteria "forcibly invade" the corpse.
Your argument is inaccurate and specious. And I suspect that you know this.
It would be "forcibly" against the wishes of the deceased's family and probably their beliefs. The dead don't care about what happens to their body, but their family and their Will have something to say about it. I seriously doubt that the Kobali cared about getting the permission of the deceased's family considering how the Kobali consider it a great honour. Of course, that could change after the war with the Vaadwaur.
The dead care when they suddenly come back to life and find themselves corrupted into an alien.
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid." - Q
My solution to the Kobali problem doesn't stray into the "final" one that some in this thread seem to opt for. I believe the way forward is to set up a donor scheme whereby Federation citizens offer their DNA for cloning upon death and allow Kobali scientists to use inanimate clones as a template/framework to grow new Kobali. Using this method allows families the right to grieve a body without fear of desecration and you could sell it to individuals with the Kobali's justification as a positive promotional point.
I think some people are being a bit "overly Darwinian" in their analysis. Even the harsh application of the founding ideology behind the Prime Directive seen in Enterprise's "Dear Doctor" doesn't suggest that biology is the only legitimate driving force in determining a species existence - if the Valakians had been able to develop warp drive themselves and negotiate or discover a technology to prevent their mutation driven disease, then it wouldn't be an issue. Technology is not a cheat - for those who are strict adherents to natural selection being the only force at work, it is a hypocrisy to claim that it is (what if humans had not discovered irrigation or refrigeration or antibiotics etc - would we have survived in sufficient number to become dominant in the face of other predatory species and natural disasters?)
Therefore, surely the Kobali solution while pretty much in bad taste as far as human other species sensibilities go... does satisfy the requirements of natural selection (merely that something was preventing or challenging their survival and they found a way to circumvent it).
If the Kobali were completely unprincipled, they could find a world inhabited by a primitive species and interfere in its cultural development - grooming the race they encountered to accept/incorporate the technological recycling of its dead into its belief system... and if the Federation made first contact at that point, there'd be nothing they could do.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
It's more likely that there's an out-of-universe explanation. Aka 'bad writing'. Much like episodes such as Threshold... episodes which had significant implications that were completely ignored in the rest of the series/franchise.
I choose to ignore such things. If the writers cannot be bothered to explain such inconsistencies, why should I, or we as the audience, care about them?
because if people continue being apathetic about those inconsistencies, it gives the writers carte blanche to continue making them in future productions
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
That's ok. Then I'll simply stop watching those future productions.
Edit: anyway, the point was: I refuse to take evidence from badly written episodes like that Neelix-revival episode serious, because they make no sense.
Those things, that are never followed up upon nor explained in any way really shouldn't be used in discussions.
Although I guess the same could be said for the whole Kobali thing to a certain extent. But at least the encounter with the Kobali didn't have serious implications later on as they were quickly left behind. It's of course different with Seven.
If the writers didn't care about this method in later episodes then they should have left it out entirely. You cannot say anything sensible about it if the writers themselves don't bother with it making sense.
By the kobali harvesting vaadwaur dead, and not so dead in their stasis chambers
The vaadwaur have a legitamate right to go to war against the kobali
and by interfering in this conflict that does not involve the fedration
th fedration is breaking th prime directive.....again
It's been ages since I played Delta Rising but what I remember most clearly about it is that the reasons why we helped the Kobali were two-fold. First, they were a valuable ally in the war against the Vaadwaur, who--as @azrael605 pointed out--were on a campaign hell-bent on subjugating or destroying everyone in the Delta Quadrant. Secondly, the Vaadwaur had created something that was going to exterminate the Kobali for good. So these factors far outweighed whatever moral qualms there were to be had in enabling the Kobali in their grave robbing.
Yeah, and one thing that caught my attention is that despite hundreds of new Kobali created from Vaadwaur, none of these new Kobali objected to fighting their "own kind".... But Keten.... Keten immediately tried to escape.
Comments
My character Tsin'xing
We were shown, both on the TV episode and in-game, that the Kobali virus cannot infect living tissue. (That's one of the reasons why a Kobali was able to wander freely through Voyager without infecting anyone aboard. It's also why they have to wait until a Vaadwaur cryotube fails before converting the late Vaad inside to Kobali.) Nothing is done "forcibly", as has been repeatedly pointed out, save in the sense that a virus "forcibly" infects tissue - in which case you might as well be calling for the eradication of the bacteria responsible for the decay process in dead organic beings, because the bacteria "forcibly invade" the corpse.
Your argument is inaccurate and specious. And I suspect that you know this.
I'm not interested in debating fictional definitions of "living tissue." A person who can be revived with his mind intact is not dead.
My character Tsin'xing
it is called PERMANENT for a reason, because it can't be repaired by ANY means short of divine (or Q) intervention
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Your contentions fail basic tests of both logic and canon.
But their minds aren't intact. Sure, they retain fragmentary memories of their past life, but those fade very quickly. They aren't the person they were before, mentally or even physiologically. Their entire neural structure is fundamentally different from before.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I dare you to do better.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Yet she herself admits, she's not the same person.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I dare you to do better.
My character Tsin'xing
Yes, they aren't the person they were before...but they were at first. That's exactly why it's wrong. How do you know that? Because they said so?
We have SEEN it happen twice. They remember.
It would be "forcibly" against the wishes of the deceased's family and probably their beliefs. The dead don't care about what happens to their body, but their family and their Will have something to say about it. I seriously doubt that the Kobali cared about getting the permission of the deceased's family considering how the Kobali consider it a great honour. Of course, that could change after the war with the Vaadwaur.
^^ 100% Agreed.
I remember how they never used that method on other people like lt. Carey...
Or the countless other crewmen who died after Seven's arrival.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
I choose to ignore such things. If the writers cannot be bothered to explain such inconsistencies, why should I, or we as the audience, care about them?
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Edit: anyway, the point was: I refuse to take evidence from badly written episodes like that Neelix-revival episode serious, because they make no sense.
Those things, that are never followed up upon nor explained in any way really shouldn't be used in discussions.
If the writers didn't care about this method in later episodes then they should have left it out entirely. You cannot say anything sensible about it if the writers themselves don't bother with it making sense.
By the kobali harvesting vaadwaur dead, and not so dead in their stasis chambers
The vaadwaur have a legitamate right to go to war against the kobali
and by interfering in this conflict that does not involve the fedration
th fedration is breaking th prime directive.....again
Should we also revive the whole "dev's hate he Galaxy class" while we are at it?
Yeah, I thought we were done with this as well. At least worffan101 isn't at the helm this time.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I dare you to do better.
My character Tsin'xing
free Harry Kim