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Kelvin Timeline Question Re: New Vulcan

thelunarboythelunarboy Member Posts: 412 Arc User
in Ten Forward
I was wondering about this the other day. Seeing as Ambassador Spock is aware that the Kelvin timeline has been skewed by Nero and his own actions and interactions and that events in the 24th & 25th century will not unfold the same as they have in the Prime timeline... what if it turned out that the planet Spock identified for Vulcan colonization was in actual fact the same world that will become New Romulus in the prime timeline?

I know that's not what actually happened, but I think it might be fun to speculate.

Also does anyone quite know how Pon Farr works in the new timeline. In its original concept wasn't a connection to the planet (beyond cultural requirement and need for secrecy) required?

Has this been retconned (if it was an accurate assessment of what happened), and if not, does it mean that Vulcans will have to find a way to survive its effects until their bodies adapt acclimatize to a new environment... or is it possible that rather than just finding a bog standard M class planet, the Vulcans needed to find/terraform a planet to match Vulvans properties as closely as possible?

Comments

  • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan
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         Member Posts: 37,284 Arc User
    considering tuvok managed his pon farr just fine several hundred thousand lightyears from vulcan, i'd say planetary environment means nothing​​
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  • thelunarboythelunarboy Member Posts: 412 Arc User
    edited August 2016
    shadowfang240 wrote: »
    considering tuvok managed his pon farr just fine several hundred thousand lightyears from vulcan, i'd say planetary environment means nothing​​

    Yes that's true, so I guess we must assume some leeway for the interpretation I think was given in TOS. Although the environment Paris programmed for him on the holodeck was actually set on Vulcan, was it not? Perhaps that's how the throughly modern Vulcan gets around the geography issue. ;)

    And he managed to avoid turning into a salamander, too. ;)

    (Not a conflation, obviously... just a reference to another infamous instance where a previously established idea was overlooked (but then Voyager was hardly the first to do that)).
  • thelunarboythelunarboy Member Posts: 412 Arc User
    edited August 2016

    argh quoted myself instead of editing.
  • marcusdkanemarcusdkane Member Posts: 7,439 Arc User
    thelunarboy wrote: »
    I was wondering about this the other day. Seeing as Ambassador Spock is aware that the Kelvin timeline has been skewed by Nero and his own actions and interactions and that events in the 24th & 25th century will not unfold the same as they have in the Prime timeline... what if it turned out that the planet Spock identified for Vulcan colonization was in actual fact the same world that will become New Romulus in the prime timeline?

    I know that's not what actually happened, but I think it might be fun to speculate.

    Also does anyone quite know how Pon Farr works in the new timeline. In its original concept wasn't a connection to the planet (beyond cultural requirement and need for secrecy) required?

    Has this been retconned (if it was an accurate assessment of what happened), and if not, does it mean that Vulcans will have to find a way to survive its effects until their bodies adapt acclimatize to a new environment... or is it possible that rather than just finding a bog standard M class planet, the Vulcans needed to find/terraform a planet to match Vulvans properties as closely as possible?
    I don't think so... I think Spock needed to return to Vulcan during his Pon Farr, because that was where T'Pring was... You might be thinking of the connection his regenerated body had to the Genesis Planet, which was aging him as rapidly as itself...

    It would be funny if New Vulcan was indeed Dewa III, but I suspect it would be somewhere in Federation space B)

  • thelunarboythelunarboy Member Posts: 412 Arc User
    marcusdkane wrote: »
    I don't think so... I think Spock needed to return to Vulcan during his Pon Farr, because that was where T'Pring was... You might be thinking of the connection his regenerated body had to the Genesis Planet, which was aging him as rapidly as itself...

    Possibly... but I seem to remember it being a matter of contention over the years... specifically over Spock saying he had to return home and alluding to salmon etc... but I'm of course aware later canon has moved on and superseded the idea. Apparently it is indeed now more or less accepted that Spock's meaning is more allegorical than a literal parallel and that he must simply be where "Vulcan women are".

    I do find this understanding to make far more sense.
    It would be funny if New Vulcan was indeed Dewa III, but I suspect it would be somewhere in Federation space B)

    It isn't Dewa III, sadly (I'd have found the symmetry, irony and poetry of the idea a nice twist). I checked up and they settled on Simon-316 (they had a close shave and nearly ended up on Ceti Alpha V only dissuaded after Spock mind-melded with the council and they realised what a bad idea that would be).

    I put the idea up mainly for speculative fun. What might happen in terms of unification or diplomacy further down the line.

  • marcusdkanemarcusdkane Member Posts: 7,439 Arc User
    edited August 2016
    thelunarboy wrote: »
    marcusdkane wrote: »
    I don't think so... I think Spock needed to return to Vulcan during his Pon Farr, because that was where T'Pring was... You might be thinking of the connection his regenerated body had to the Genesis Planet, which was aging him as rapidly as itself...

    Possibly... but I seem to remember it being a matter of contention over the years... specifically over Spock saying he had to return home and alluding to salmon etc... but I'm of course aware later canon has moved on and superseded the idea. Apparently it is indeed now more or less accepted that Spock's meaning is more allegorical than a literal parallel and that he must simply be where "Vulcan women are".

    I do find this understanding to make far more sense.
    I think part of the problem with regards Trek Canon, was there were times, when they were literally just making it up as they went, and without thought to if it might become a relavent point in the future (such as Spock's psychic awareness of the destruction of a starship with an all-Vulcan crew) so I think any interpretations of TOS canon, needs to be tempered through the filter of TNG/DS-9/Voy and if it still holds true by that standard...

    I find the notion that a Vulcan would have to mate with a specific person, frankly, illogical, as reproduction is reproduction regardless of the parties involved. It could be that psychic bonds between the betrothed guide the compulsion, but equally, that could just be a way of showing monogamy. Afterall, in Voyager, Tuvok was able to 'find relief' with a holographic facsimile of his wife (and the notion of monogamy was clearly very important to him in his debate with Paris) which would suggest that there is no true biological or mental compulsion to a specific individual, beyond one's own morals. That Saavik was able to assist the regenerated Spock suggests two more possibilities with regards the mechanics of the betrothal: Either Spock's original fight with Kirk broke his connection to T'Pring (and the Doctor did say that the Vulcan brain was capable of effectively lobotomising itself for self-preservation) or the regeneration by the Genesis Effect acted as a 'reset' where there was then no 'partner bond' (which would also suggest that the biological urge is not partner-specific)
    thelunarboy wrote: »
    It would be funny if New Vulcan was indeed Dewa III, but I suspect it would be somewhere in Federation space B)

    It isn't Dewa III, sadly (I'd have found the symmetry, irony and poetry of the idea a nice twist). I checked up and they settled on Simon-316 (they had a close shave and nearly ended up on Ceti Alpha V only dissuaded after Spock mind-melded with the council and they realised what a bad idea that would be).

    I put the idea up mainly for speculative fun. What might happen in terms of unification or diplomacy further down the line.
    Don't forget, Simon-316 is a non-canon revelation, and could easily be ignored in the future ;) Personally speaking, I don't think that the destruction of Vulcan would assist with unification, afterall, the Romulans left Vulcan so they could stay true to the old ways. I can't see the Romulan Empire allowing a 'dissident minority' to set up shop in their backyard... Also, with the Vulcans being a small enough number to be considered an endangered species, the majority advantage would well and truly be with the Romulans... B)
  • thelunarboythelunarboy Member Posts: 412 Arc User
    marcusdkane wrote: »
    Don't forget, Simon-316 is a non-canon revelation, and could easily be ignored in the future ;) Personally speaking, I don't think that the destruction of Vulcan would assist with unification, afterall, the Romulans left Vulcan so they could stay true to the old ways. I can't see the Romulan Empire allowing a 'dissident minority' to set up shop in their backyard... Also, with the Vulcans being a small enough number to be considered an endangered species, the majority advantage would well and truly be with the Romulans... B)

    That's not quite the angle I was coming from... I meant simply that what if having stumbled upon Dewa III by logical progression/accident, the Vulcans settled and as they excavated and developed the planet, began to become aware of the planets historical importance to the Romulans.

    I think it would add some interesting tension - would the Romulans of the the KT invade on the basis of historical claim and proximity to their own borders?

    I'd like to see a KT story where some Vulcans become aware of the Mintakans and out of a sense of self preservation, use logic to justify breaking the Priime Directive... and pull a Battlestar Galactica ("hey those proto-vulcans are compatible with us, lets save our own species by raising them up and integrating them into our society"). We know that Tuvok has used logic in a similar fashion, so there is a preedent... and I think it would make a great ethical Trek story that nods back to both TOS and TNG.
    marcusdkane wrote: »
    I think part of the problem with regards Trek Canon, was there were times, when they were literally just making it up as they went, and without thought to if it might become a relavent point in the future (such as Spock's psychic awareness of the destruction of a starship with an all-Vulcan crew) so I think any interpretations of TOS canon, needs to be tempered through the filter of TNG/DS-9/Voy and if it still holds true by that standard...

    I find the notion that a Vulcan would have to mate with a specific person, frankly, illogical, as reproduction is reproduction regardless of the parties involved. It could be that psychic bonds between the betrothed guide the compulsion, but equally, that could just be a way of showing monogamy. Afterall, in Voyager, Tuvok was able to 'find relief' with a holographic facsimile of his wife (and the notion of monogamy was clearly very important to him in his debate with Paris) which would suggest that there is no true biological or mental compulsion to a specific individual, beyond one's own morals. That Saavik was able to assist the regenerated Spock suggests two more possibilities with regards the mechanics of the betrothal: Either Spock's original fight with Kirk broke his connection to T'Pring (and the Doctor did say that the Vulcan brain was capable of effectively lobotomising itself for self-preservation) or the regeneration by the Genesis Effect acted as a 'reset' where there was then no 'partner bond' (which would also suggest that the biological urge is not partner-specific)

    I think the Pon Farr is itself an illogical process (because it is the culmination of repressed emotions expressing themselves for reproductive purpose) and it was Tuvok's personal integrity that compelled him not to be unfaithful (IIRC weren't alternatives mooted?). As you say, his own morals.

    I think perhaps the act of murderous combat satiates the fever in a similar way to mating itself.
  • marcusdkanemarcusdkane Member Posts: 7,439 Arc User
    thelunarboy wrote: »
    marcusdkane wrote: »
    Don't forget, Simon-316 is a non-canon revelation, and could easily be ignored in the future ;) Personally speaking, I don't think that the destruction of Vulcan would assist with unification, afterall, the Romulans left Vulcan so they could stay true to the old ways. I can't see the Romulan Empire allowing a 'dissident minority' to set up shop in their backyard... Also, with the Vulcans being a small enough number to be considered an endangered species, the majority advantage would well and truly be with the Romulans... B)

    That's not quite the angle I was coming from... I meant simply that what if having stumbled upon Dewa III by logical progression/accident, the Vulcans settled and as they excavated and developed the planet, began to become aware of the planets historical importance to the Romulans.

    I think it would add some interesting tension - would the Romulans of the the KT invade on the basis of historical claim and proximity to their own borders?

    I'd like to see a KT story where some Vulcans become aware of the Mintakans and out of a sense of self preservation, use logic to justify breaking the Priime Directive... and pull a Battlestar Galactica ("hey those proto-vulcans are compatible with us, lets save our own species by raising them up and integrating them into our society"). We know that Tuvok has used logic in a similar fashion, so there is a preedent... and I think it would make a great ethical Trek story that nods back to both TOS and TNG.
    marcusdkane wrote: »
    I think part of the problem with regards Trek Canon, was there were times, when they were literally just making it up as they went, and without thought to if it might become a relavent point in the future (such as Spock's psychic awareness of the destruction of a starship with an all-Vulcan crew) so I think any interpretations of TOS canon, needs to be tempered through the filter of TNG/DS-9/Voy and if it still holds true by that standard...

    I find the notion that a Vulcan would have to mate with a specific person, frankly, illogical, as reproduction is reproduction regardless of the parties involved. It could be that psychic bonds between the betrothed guide the compulsion, but equally, that could just be a way of showing monogamy. Afterall, in Voyager, Tuvok was able to 'find relief' with a holographic facsimile of his wife (and the notion of monogamy was clearly very important to him in his debate with Paris) which would suggest that there is no true biological or mental compulsion to a specific individual, beyond one's own morals. That Saavik was able to assist the regenerated Spock suggests two more possibilities with regards the mechanics of the betrothal: Either Spock's original fight with Kirk broke his connection to T'Pring (and the Doctor did say that the Vulcan brain was capable of effectively lobotomising itself for self-preservation) or the regeneration by the Genesis Effect acted as a 'reset' where there was then no 'partner bond' (which would also suggest that the biological urge is not partner-specific)

    I think the Pon Farr is itself an illogical process (because it is the culmination of repressed emotions expressing themselves for reproductive purpose) and it was Tuvok's personal integrity that compelled him not to be unfaithful (IIRC weren't alternatives mooted?). As you say, his own morals.

    I think perhaps the act of murderous combat satiates the fever in a similar way to mating itself.
    I agree, it is, but equally, so is the salmon's practices, but then again, Nature can be funny with the hoops it makes us jump through... I forget where I read it, but something I'd read, was that the seven year cycle coincided with either the orbit of Vulcan, or low points in Vulcan's suns output, meaning there was less ambient radiation. It was an interesting notion, but if examined too deeply, I think it would fall apart, as Vulcans can (and presumeably do) mate at times other than the Pon Farr, so not all children would be conceived during that period of low radiation, meaning that some would be out of aynch with that cycle...

    Paris suggested the use of the holodeck, which Tuvok considered distasteful, until I believe Paris suggested a holographic recreation of Tuvok's wife...
  • trygvar13trygvar13 Member Posts: 697 Arc User
    That's an interesting idea. Especially since we know from STO that the Vulcans did indeed visit Dewa III in the past. They even left the sword of S'harien there.
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  • themetalstickmanthemetalstickman Member Posts: 1,010 Arc User
    azrael605 wrote: »
    Actually there were 2 vulcans that underwent pon farr on Voyager. Tuvok and the vulcan engineer (name escapes me presently) who wanted to mate with B'lanna. I've always felt that the main reasons why Spock had to return to Vulcan in TOS was because of T'Pring and because he refused to give McCoy any information which could have helped.

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  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,473 Arc User
    Also, during Spock's own pon farr experience, until Kirk went ahead and diverted to Vulcan anyway Spock was about ready to make Christine Chapel's wildest fantasies come true... (Of course, he immediately veered the conversation away from that once he realized he was going to get home in time, but this suggests that the major compulsion effect in pon farr is that the Vulcan concerned must mate, while an individual might feel a deep-seated, psychologically-based need to mate with one specific person. Spock wanted to fulfill his needs with T'Pring, because the two of them had been bonded since childhood, but was about to overcome his personal aversions in order to secure Christine's assistance.)​​
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  • ashrod63ashrod63 Member Posts: 384 Arc User
    That's assuming of course there even is a Dewa III in the Kelvin Timeline, the movie Kelvin Timeline of course as opposed to the STO Kelvin Timeline.

    Canon is a nightmare, so are temporal mechanics. If as Daniels says the Klingons were chosen as the Sphere Builder's proxies in the Kelvin Timeline, then why in Star Trek Beyond is there a reference to the Xindi War? Was this a remnant of the previous timeline like future Janeway in the Voyager finale? My head hurts.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 58,670 Community Moderator
    edited August 2016
    ashrod63 wrote: »
    That's assuming of course there even is a Dewa III in the Kelvin Timeline, the movie Kelvin Timeline of course as opposed to the STO Kelvin Timeline.

    Canon is a nightmare, so are temporal mechanics. If as Daniels says the Klingons were chosen as the Sphere Builder's proxies in the Kelvin Timeline, then why in Star Trek Beyond is there a reference to the Xindi War? Was this a remnant of the previous timeline like future Janeway in the Voyager finale? My head hurts.

    Because the events of Enterprise still took place even in the Kelvin Timeline. Up until the Narada destroyed the Kelvin, everything was the same as in the Prime Universe. So the Xindi Conflict and the Earth-Romulan War took place just as it did in the Prime Universe.

    There is a model of the NX-01 on Admiral Marcus' desk in Into Darkness.
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  • nikeixnikeix Member Posts: 3,972 Arc User
    ashrod63 wrote: »
    Canon is a nightmare, so are temporal mechanics. If as Daniels says the Klingons were chosen as the Sphere Builder's proxies in the Kelvin Timeline, then why in Star Trek Beyond is there a reference to the Xindi War? Was this a remnant of the previous timeline like future Janeway in the Voyager finale? My head hurts.

    I'm going with "Because there's no universe where STO dictates canon to Paramount". The water flows only one direction and it's downhill.
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    azrael605 wrote: »
    Well not exactly the same rattler. According to recent statements from Simon Pegg it works more like DC's Flashpoint story. Meaning the Narada incursion caused shockwaves that travelled both ways through time and caused changes. So going back to Flashpoint after Barry went back and saved his mother it changed what happened one night in Gotham years earlier resulting in Bruce Wayne dying, Thomas Wayne becoming Batman, & Martha Wayne becoming The Joker. This is why there are small differences like the viewscreen style and such.

    The viewscreen window predates the Kelvin ripples or no ripples. The windowless NX still sits in between the widowed Franklin and Kelvin.​​
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  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    Ripples don't go around things like that.

    I don't even see the need for the ripple stuff anyway. There is nothing about the Kelvin that doesn't follow fine along from ENT.
    The only reason it would not is if you obsessed over nacelle exhausts and other embarising little nitpicks like that.
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    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
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  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    edited August 2016
    artan42 wrote: »
    Ripples don't go around things like that.

    I don't even see the need for the ripple stuff anyway. There is nothing about the Kelvin that doesn't follow fine along from ENT.
    The only reason it would not is if you obsessed over nacelle exhausts and other embarising little nitpicks like that.

    It feels to me that it's inevitable that the Kelvin Timeline will have a different past as well as a different future. That doesn't mean everything gets to be retconned. But the reason for it is - time travel is already happening within the timeline, and if certain persons are not in the right places at the right time, they won't make those time travels, and alter or preserve history (as demanded by the plot).

    Who will stop the Devidians in the 19th century? Will there still be an Android head there?
    There is no guarantee the future still contains a Picard or a Data that will find the Devidian "base". Maybe someone else does, maybe it largely ends the same way, but maybe it will be different.


    But my default assumption would still be that everything is mostly the same in the past - and since we see the NX-01 on that table, I think the Franklin is part of both timelines. Stylistic differences do not really matter. The Klingons may have gotten a canon explanation in Enterprise why they do look different between shows, but other races - like the Andorians or the Trill - got none. We still assume they are the same species.
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  • thelunarboythelunarboy Member Posts: 412 Arc User
    mustrumridcully0 wrote: »
    It feels to me that it's inevitable that the Kelvin Timeline will have a different past as well as a different future. That doesn't mean everything gets to be retconned. But the reason for it is - time travel is already happening within the timeline, and if certain persons are not in the right places at the right time, they won't make those time travels, and alter or preserve history (as demanded by the plot).

    Who will stop the Devidians in the 19th century? Will there still be an Android head there?
    There is no guarantee the future still contains a Picard or a Data that will find the Devidian "base". Maybe someone else does, maybe it largely ends the same way, but maybe it will be different.

    That's a really good point.


    ENT: Shockwave
    ENT: Regeneration
    ENT: Carpenter Street
    ENT: Azati Prime
    ENT: E2
    ENT: Storm Front
    ENT: Zero Hour
    TOS: Tomorrow is Yesterday:
    TOS: The City on the Edge of Forever
    TOS: Assignment Earth
    TOS: All Our Yesterdays
    Star Trek: The Voyage Home
    TNG: Captain's Holiday
    TNG: A Matter of Time (not in episode's events but implied by way of what Rasmussen was doing)
    TNG: Time's Arrow
    TNG: All Good Things (if Picard's travel to the very beginnings of Earth had any effect)
    DS9: Past Tense
    DS9: Little Green Men
    DS9: Accession
    DS9: Children of Time
    DS9: Time's Orphan
    VOY: Death Wish
    VOY: Future's End
    Star Trek: First Contact

    All these stories (I think I have them in more or less the right order from a pre Star Trek (2009) linear perspective), feature events where a character/characters have passed from before the timeline of the Kelvin incident, to beyond it (or vice versa). We should probably include episodes where characters have been in stasis and interacted with future people as well. So of course any change in events in their destination or point of origin post Kelvin, will alter how events occurred in a pre Kelvin timeline.

    And those are just the ones we know about.



  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,473 Arc User
    "People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually, from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint - it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly... timey-wimey... stuff."​​
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  • farmallmfarmallm Member Posts: 4,630 Arc User
    They should go to Pem'jem. That is a Vulcan planet.
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  • ashrod63ashrod63 Member Posts: 384 Arc User
    nikeix wrote: »
    ashrod63 wrote: »
    Canon is a nightmare, so are temporal mechanics. If as Daniels says the Klingons were chosen as the Sphere Builder's proxies in the Kelvin Timeline, then why in Star Trek Beyond is there a reference to the Xindi War? Was this a remnant of the previous timeline like future Janeway in the Voyager finale? My head hurts.

    I'm going with "Because there's no universe where STO dictates canon to Paramount". The water flows only one direction and it's downhill.

    Clearly it wasn't flowing in either direction. If they are going to use the universe you think somebody at Paramount would be approving the scrpt and fact checking it against the upcoming novie.

    Paramount don't need dictation, but STO does.
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