Ive always headcanoned that there were two arms to Starfleet. Scientific and Military. The vast bulk of Starfleet is in its Military Arm. Though the Military Arm is most definitely not its pride and joy. Its simply a means to an end. In the past most of the ships were outdated starships that should of been decommissioned but because of the vastness of Federation space were used to fill gaps in Starfleets armada.
The Scientific Arm of Starfleet is where the brightest of the Federation go. These are officers and crewman that are going to be studying anything and everything that they come upon out there. Boldly going where no one has gone before on their 5 year missions. Making first contact and managing the most sensitive of diplomatic issues that might arise. This is also where Starfleets "Flagship" is. The Enterprise is like a giant mascot for both the fleet and for the Federation.
The Military Arm is a much more duller side of things for anyone that joined to explore new worlds. Its meant to patrol the sectors of the Federation and its borders. Its basically a governments Navy and Coast Guard in space. Theyre the first to engage enemy fleets in a war, theyre the ones executing warrants and search and seizures on illegal goods. This is also the arm that Starfleet Intelligence belongs in. The Military Arm doesnt get much notice unless theres some sort of conflict like the Dominion War because its not what everyone likes to romanticize and fantasize about. Day to day what the Military Arm does on in the background.
Except that contradicts almost everything we know about Starfleet. All 'branches' Kirk's, Picard's, and Siskos have the same protocols and procedures, the same ships, the same departments, and so on. It also directly contradicts Scotty's 'Starfleet is not a military organisation as he would have said something like 'Half of Starfleet is still a military I don't know what X is moaning about'.
There's no different 'branches', it's a exploration force that occasionally is called upon for defence. A paramilitary humanitarian armada. That's all the shows and films suggest and all there is to it.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Ive always headcanoned that there were two arms to Starfleet. Scientific and Military. The vast bulk of Starfleet is in its Military Arm. Though the Military Arm is most definitely not its pride and joy. Its simply a means to an end. In the past most of the ships were outdated starships that should of been decommissioned but because of the vastness of Federation space were used to fill gaps in Starfleets armada.
The Scientific Arm of Starfleet is where the brightest of the Federation go. These are officers and crewman that are going to be studying anything and everything that they come upon out there. Boldly going where no one has gone before on their 5 year missions. Making first contact and managing the most sensitive of diplomatic issues that might arise. This is also where Starfleets "Flagship" is. The Enterprise is like a giant mascot for both the fleet and for the Federation.
The Military Arm is a much more duller side of things for anyone that joined to explore new worlds. Its meant to patrol the sectors of the Federation and its borders. Its basically a governments Navy and Coast Guard in space. Theyre the first to engage enemy fleets in a war, theyre the ones executing warrants and search and seizures on illegal goods. This is also the arm that Starfleet Intelligence belongs in. The Military Arm doesnt get much notice unless theres some sort of conflict like the Dominion War because its not what everyone likes to romanticize and fantasize about. Day to day what the Military Arm does on in the background.
Except that contradicts almost everything we know about Starfleet. All 'branches' Kirk's, Picard's, and Siskos have the same protocols and procedures, the same ships, the same departments, and so on. It also directly contradicts Scotty's 'Starfleet is not a military organisation as he would have said something like 'Half of Starfleet is still a military I don't know what X is moaning about'.
There's no different 'branches', it's a exploration force that occasionally is called upon for defence. A paramilitary humanitarian armada. That's all the shows and films suggest and all there is to it.
First off its headcanon so its not going to fix every issue with Starfleet.
Second off in the Undiscovered Country the Admirals worry about having to "mothball" the fleet in face of the Klingons becoming non-hostile. Now why would they worry about mothballing the fleet if Starfleet is everything you claim it to be? If all they do is peacekeep and explore. Why are they scared theyll lose ships?
The characters in the shows arent even the best sources here. At one point in early TNG they talk of the Klingons joining the Federation. Are you going to start arguing that Klingons shouldnt have their own government and ships based on comments by a character in TNG now?
Starfleet can not function as solely a peacekeeping and exploration organization. Not when they admit they go to war. No matter what you argue or how you try to argue it. If Starfleet wasnt the military, it wouldnt perform the militarys duty of defending its sovereign nation/faction.
Except that contradicts almost everything we know about Starfleet. All 'branches' Kirk's, Picard's, and Siskos have the same protocols and procedures, the same ships, the same departments, and so on. It also directly contradicts Scotty's 'Starfleet is not a military organisation as he would have said something like 'Half of Starfleet is still a military I don't know what X is moaning about'.
There's no different 'branches', it's a exploration force that occasionally is called upon for defence. A paramilitary humanitarian armada. That's all the shows and films suggest and all there is to it.
First, your Scotty quote is an alternate timeline from the other shows except possibly Enterprise. (Though given how they had an episode about the crashed borg sphere that tends to get scary on how time will loop no matter what.)
And no they do not all have the same ships. Picard was not out just seeing galaxy classes. He saw oberths, mirandas, nebula. All different ships in Starfleet. So them having different jobs is justified. Voyager and DS9 Showed even more ships and varied the mix. Sisko's Defiant was intended to be a pure warship. Meaning one that did not have other duties.
And the same protocols and procedures? Kirk calls from the romulan border but it will be three hours till he gets a reply. Sisko even further away can call Earth for face to face conversations with his father. Just in the ability to get instructions versus their own authority the protocols changed. Note Janeway pointing out how all the old heroes of the Federation would be drummed out in the modern fleet.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
First off its headcanon so its not going to fix every issue with Starfleet.
Second off in the Undiscovered Country the Admirals worry about having to "mothball" the fleet in face of the Klingons becoming non-hostile. Now why would they worry about mothballing the fleet if Starfleet is everything you claim it to be? If all they do is peacekeep and explore. Why are they scared theyll lose ships?
The characters in the shows arent even the best sources here. At one point in early TNG they talk of the Klingons joining the Federation. Are you going to start arguing that Klingons shouldnt have their own government and ships based on comments by a character in TNG now?
Starfleet can not function as solely a peacekeeping and exploration organization. Not when they admit they go to war. No matter what you argue or how you try to argue it. If Starfleet wasnt the military, it wouldnt perform the militarys duty of defending its sovereign nation/faction.
Are you going to deny the Dominion War now?
It really doesn't "fix" any issues, as they are non. It really is only bickering about semantics, people want to call it a military to a) relate to it in real life (mostly service people) and b) cram it into a present day reference. They overlook that the fictional source material clearly describes Starfleet as not a military multiple times in plain dialogue - whatever you think "military" means or whatever you piece together is irrelevant, the statement is canonical and you have to extrapolate from this statement, not from somewhere else and ignore it - that's not how things work.
To the second point, the solution to the statement is adressed in the same dialogue. The exploration would be unaffected by it, meaning no the fleet isn't mothballed. It is a ludicrous statement to begin with that can only be explained by paranoid emotions by that particular Admiral who got too comfortable in his function. Because even when the Klingon war was over, what about all the other conflicts Starfleet is engaged in, all the defensive functions and finally the scientific and (mentioned) explorative functions. It is a weird statement that doesnt really make sense and is immedeatly adressed as well.
A the "going to war" thing, all the pro-military people seem like they wouldn't even read the discussion at all. Starfleet is the UFPs substitute service for a full-time military. They fight in wars. They make pew pew. Nobody is arguing against that, but that doesn't mean the anonical statements of a different societal order and a different nature of Starfleet's service is false.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Ive always headcanoned that there were two arms to Starfleet. Scientific and Military. The vast bulk of Starfleet is in its Military Arm. Though the Military Arm is most definitely not its pride and joy. Its simply a means to an end. In the past most of the ships were outdated starships that should of been decommissioned but because of the vastness of Federation space were used to fill gaps in Starfleets armada.
The Scientific Arm of Starfleet is where the brightest of the Federation go. These are officers and crewman that are going to be studying anything and everything that they come upon out there. Boldly going where no one has gone before on their 5 year missions. Making first contact and managing the most sensitive of diplomatic issues that might arise. This is also where Starfleets "Flagship" is. The Enterprise is like a giant mascot for both the fleet and for the Federation.
The Military Arm is a much more duller side of things for anyone that joined to explore new worlds. Its meant to patrol the sectors of the Federation and its borders. Its basically a governments Navy and Coast Guard in space. Theyre the first to engage enemy fleets in a war, theyre the ones executing warrants and search and seizures on illegal goods. This is also the arm that Starfleet Intelligence belongs in. The Military Arm doesnt get much notice unless theres some sort of conflict like the Dominion War because its not what everyone likes to romanticize and fantasize about. Day to day what the Military Arm does on in the background.
Except that contradicts almost everything we know about Starfleet. All 'branches' Kirk's, Picard's, and Siskos have the same protocols and procedures, the same ships, the same departments, and so on. It also directly contradicts Scotty's 'Starfleet is not a military organisation as he would have said something like 'Half of Starfleet is still a military I don't know what X is moaning about'.
There's no different 'branches', it's a exploration force that occasionally is called upon for defence. A paramilitary humanitarian armada. That's all the shows and films suggest and all there is to it.
First off its headcanon so its not going to fix every issue with Starfleet.
It dosn't fix any.
Second off in the Undiscovered Country the Admirals worry about having to "mothball" the fleet in face of the Klingons becoming non-hostile. Now why would they worry about mothballing the fleet if Starfleet is everything you claim it to be? If all they do is peacekeep and explore. Why are they scared theyll lose ships?
Because they're in the wrong. The whole point of that film is that those Admirals are trying to turn Starfleet and the Federation into something it's not.
The characters in the shows arent even the best sources here. At one point in early TNG they talk of the Klingons joining the Federation. Are you going to start arguing that Klingons shouldnt have their own government and ships based on comments by a character in TNG now?
Later events retcon earlier ones. Beyond is later than anything else it's statements are reflective of the most up to date canon.
Starfleet can not function as solely a peacekeeping and exploration organization. Not when they admit they go to war. No matter what you argue or how you try to argue it. If Starfleet wasnt the military, it wouldnt perform the militarys duty of defending its sovereign nation/faction.
Are you going to deny the Dominion War now?
Paramilitary. If you can't be bothered reading don't reply.
Except that contradicts almost everything we know about Starfleet. All 'branches' Kirk's, Picard's, and Siskos have the same protocols and procedures, the same ships, the same departments, and so on. It also directly contradicts Scotty's 'Starfleet is not a military organisation as he would have said something like 'Half of Starfleet is still a military I don't know what X is moaning about'.
There's no different 'branches', it's a exploration force that occasionally is called upon for defence. A paramilitary humanitarian armada. That's all the shows and films suggest and all there is to it.
First, your Scotty quote is an alternate timeline from the other shows except possibly Enterprise. (Though given how they had an episode about the crashed borg sphere that tends to get scary on how time will loop no matter what.)
I wish people would stop saying that. It dosn't affect everything. The incursion did not affect events that pre-dated it. The end of the Earth-Romulan War and the disbanding of MACO happened prior to the destruction of the Kelvin. It happened in both universes/timelines. Starfleet is not a military in either.
And no they do not all have the same ships. Picard was not out just seeing galaxy classes. He saw oberths, mirandas, nebula. All different ships in Starfleet. So them having different jobs is justified. Voyager and DS9 Showed even more ships and varied the mix. Sisko's Defiant was intended to be a pure warship. Meaning one that did not have other duties.
Have you seen DS9? It has many other roles, it spends a whole episode scanning the wormhole. It spends its time on colonisation duties. And, no, both 'branches' (i.e. a made up distinction) have the same ships. The Excelsior was scanning gaseous anomalies in the Beta Quadrant and Excelsior Classes were involved in the Dominion War. That's the Excelsior in both 'branches'. I could keep going with Mirandas, Akiras, Intrepids, Galaxys, Defiants etc.
And the same protocols and procedures? Kirk calls from the romulan border but it will be three hours till he gets a reply. Sisko even further away can call Earth for face to face conversations with his father. Just in the ability to get instructions versus their own authority the protocols changed. Note Janeway pointing out how all the old heroes of the Federation would be drummed out in the modern fleet.
That's changing protocols due to time periods not due to these so called 'branches' that's not even tangentially related to what anyone was talking about.
A the "going to war" thing, all the pro-military people seem like they wouldn't even read the discussion at all. Starfleet is the UFPs substitute service for a full-time military. They fight in wars. They make pew pew. Nobody is arguing against that, but that doesn't mean the anonical statements of a different societal order and a different nature of Starfleet's service is false.
It's mainly due to people not been able to google 'paramilitary' and really bad logic like 'Starfleet ships are heavily armed so are obviously military'. There's absolutely no way to claim Starfleet is a military organisation without having to put your own head-canon over direct onscreen-canon combined with massive leaps in logic and selective reading (or viewing in this case).
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Except that contradicts almost everything we know about Starfleet. All 'branches' Kirk's, Picard's, and Siskos have the same protocols and procedures, the same ships, the same departments, and so on. It also directly contradicts Scotty's 'Starfleet is not a military organisation as he would have said something like 'Half of Starfleet is still a military I don't know what X is moaning about'.
There's no different 'branches', it's a exploration force that occasionally is called upon for defence. A paramilitary humanitarian armada. That's all the shows and films suggest and all there is to it.
I wish people would stop saying that. It dosn't affect everything. The incursion did not affect events that pre-dated it. The end of the Earth-Romulan War and the disbanding of MACO happened prior to the destruction of the Kelvin. It happened in both universes/timelines. Starfleet is not a military in either.
Have you seen DS9? It has many other roles, it spends a whole episode scanning the wormhole. It spends its time on colonisation duties. And, no, both 'branches' (i.e. a made up distinction) have the same ships. The Excelsior was scanning gaseous anomalies in the Beta Quadrant and Excelsior Classes were involved in the Dominion War. That's the Excelsior in both 'branches'. I could keep going with Mirandas, Akiras, Intrepids, Galaxys, Defiants etc.
That's changing protocols due to time periods not due to these so called 'branches' that's not even tangentially related to what anyone was talking about.
Take a deep breath. I point out that YOU said Kirk, Picard, and Sisko had the same protocols and procedures. When I show they didn't you hand wave that things shift over time. Pick a stance please.
You claim they all have the same ships. But I mention how no they don't and that one such ship was envisioned as a pure warship. Bombers for the second world war were built to kill people. Didn't stop them using them to air drop food and candy to people in the lead up to the Berlin wall. So the statement of Defiant being built differently is still valid.
As for the divide in Prime and KT time lines I conceded that the events of Enterprise seem left unchanged. The only spot of contention is the borg probe left after First Contact. But the actions of the people involved now have been changed. Star Trek (2009) even stated that no matter what their fates have been changed. In the prime timeline, the Enterprise and crew found Khan and dealt with him. (Sudden thought but was that a zero body count episode?) As far as we know Admiral Marcus never made a pure warship and tried to start a war with the Klingons. All prime timeline.
So how can we say that priorities are not skewed in the KT universe? So using a quote from one of them is not valid for the opinions of people in the prime timeline.
So you wish to say that Beyond wipes all previous canon and that nothing else matters because it is the latest movie. Then lets stop quoting ToS, movies, TNG, DS9, Voyager, and the first two KT movies. Because only the latest release is valid? Is that what you are suggesting?
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Take a deep breath. I point out that YOU said Kirk, Picard, and Sisko had the same protocols and procedures. When I show they didn't you hand wave that things shift over time. Pick a stance please.
Their stances on things differ through time not through 'branches'. It's hardly unclear what I was saying.
Bombers for the second world war were built to kill people. Didn't stop them using them to air drop food and candy to people in the lead up to the Berlin wall. So the statement of Defiant being built differently is still valid.
No it's not. The defiant is an anomaly. It wouldn't be necessary to point out it was a specific warship if that was the norm.
As for the divide in Prime and KT time lines I conceded that the events of Enterprise seem left unchanged. The only spot of contention is the borg probe left after First Contact. But the actions of the people involved now have been changed. Star Trek (2009) even stated that no matter what their fates have been changed. In the prime timeline, the Enterprise and crew found Khan and dealt with him. (Sudden thought but was that a zero body count episode?) As far as we know Admiral Marcus never made a pure warship and tried to start a war with the Klingons. All prime timeline.
He didn't. Section 32 remained in the shadows even through DS9 in the PT, Marcus brought it into the open in the KT. It still dosn't change events prior to the Kelvin event.
So how can we say that priorities are not skewed in the KT universe? So using a quote from one of them is not valid for the opinions of people in the prime timeline.
Because the Marcus thing you helpfully posted shows the complete opposite. A Starfleet that would move towards militarisation. But again, I've given up citing evidence from Picard or O'Brien, or Bashir because it's all summarily ignored in favour of colloquialisms and bad logic.
So you wish to say that Beyond wipes all previous canon and that nothing else matters because it is the latest movie. Then lets stop quoting ToS, movies, TNG, DS9, Voyager, and the first two KT movies. Because only the latest release is valid? Is that what you are suggesting?
Um, no. Where there's a contradiction the newest wins out. It's how retcons work. Stop strawmanning and start reading.
Early TNG suggested that the Klingons were part of the Federation, later TNG overwrote it. Early TOS suggested Starfleet might have been military, later Trek overwrote it. The latest Trek (Beyond) outright states that starfleet is not a military organisation, a decision that was made prior to the Kelvin incident.
So between ENT and up to TUC Starfleet is not a military (as Scotty says) TNG certainly isn't according to Picard and O'Brien refutes the idea of DS9s Starfleet being a military. That's just three people, there's more examples but I'm only sticking with the three I've already mentioned. Three different eras, two different realities, several different characters, innumerable episodes with different plots all in support of a non-military Starfleet vs. people unable to look up 'paramilitary' and really bad logic (seriously, did you read the 'evidence' about military ranks being used as proof?)
Post edited by artan42 on
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Except that contradicts almost everything we know about Starfleet. All 'branches' Kirk's, Picard's, and Siskos have the same protocols and procedures, the same ships, the same departments, and so on. It also directly contradicts Scotty's 'Starfleet is not a military organisation as he would have said something like 'Half of Starfleet is still a military I don't know what X is moaning about'.
There's no different 'branches', it's a exploration force that occasionally is called upon for defence. A paramilitary humanitarian armada. That's all the shows and films suggest and all there is to it.
I wish people would stop saying that. It dosn't affect everything. The incursion did not affect events that pre-dated it. The end of the Earth-Romulan War and the disbanding of MACO happened prior to the destruction of the Kelvin. It happened in both universes/timelines. Starfleet is not a military in either.
Have you seen DS9? It has many other roles, it spends a whole episode scanning the wormhole. It spends its time on colonisation duties. And, no, both 'branches' (i.e. a made up distinction) have the same ships. The Excelsior was scanning gaseous anomalies in the Beta Quadrant and Excelsior Classes were involved in the Dominion War. That's the Excelsior in both 'branches'. I could keep going with Mirandas, Akiras, Intrepids, Galaxys, Defiants etc.
That's changing protocols due to time periods not due to these so called 'branches' that's not even tangentially related to what anyone was talking about.
Take a deep breath. I point out that YOU said Kirk, Picard, and Sisko had the same protocols and procedures. When I show they didn't you hand wave that things shift over time. Pick a stance please.
Their stances on things differ through time not through 'branches'. It's hardly unclear what I was saying.
You claim they all have the same ships. But I mention how no they don't and that one such ship was envisioned as a pure warship.
And as there are no different branches it is immaterial. But for sake of argument I pointed out how both 'branches' use Excelsiors.
Bombers for the second world war were built to kill people. Didn't stop them using them to air drop food and candy to people in the lead up to the Berlin wall. So the statement of Defiant being built differently is still valid.
No it's not. The defiant is an anomaly. It wouldn't be necessary to point out it was a specific warship if that was the norm.
As for the divide in Prime and KT time lines I conceded that the events of Enterprise seem left unchanged. The only spot of contention is the borg probe left after First Contact. But the actions of the people involved now have been changed. Star Trek (2009) even stated that no matter what their fates have been changed. In the prime timeline, the Enterprise and crew found Khan and dealt with him. (Sudden thought but was that a zero body count episode?) As far as we know Admiral Marcus never made a pure warship and tried to start a war with the Klingons. All prime timeline.
He didn't. Section 32 remained in the shadows even through DS9 in the PT, Marcus brought it into the open in the KT. It still dosn't change events prior to the Kelvin event.
So how can we say that priorities are not skewed in the KT universe? So using a quote from one of them is not valid for the opinions of people in the prime timeline.
Because the Marcus thing you helpfully posted shows the complete opposite. A Starfleet that would move towards militarisation. But again, I've given up citing evidence from Picard or O'Brien, or Bashir because it's all summarily ignored in favour of colloquialisms and bad logic.
So you wish to say that Beyond wipes all previous canon and that nothing else matters because it is the latest movie. Then lets stop quoting ToS, movies, TNG, DS9, Voyager, and the first two KT movies. Because only the latest release is valid? Is that what you are suggesting?
Um, no. Where there's a contradiction the newest wins out. It's how retcons work. Stop strawmanning and start reading.
Early TNG suggested that the Klingons were part of the Federation, later TNG overwrote it. Early TOS suggested Starfleet might have been military, later Trek overwrote it. The latest Trek (Beyond) outright states that starfleet is not a military organisation, a decision that was made prior to the Kelvin incident.
So between ENT and up to TUC Starfleet is not a military (as Scotty says) TNG certainly isn't according to Picard and O'Brien refutes the idea of DS9s Starfleet being a military. That's just three people, there's more examples but I'm only sticking with the three I've already mentioned. Three different eras, two different realities, several different characters, innumerable episodes with different plots all in support of a non-military Starfleet vs. people unable to look up 'paramilitary' and really bad logic (seriously, did you read the 'evidence' about military ranks being used as proof?)
Small request. Can you use a different highlight color? The dark blue on the dark grey background is blurry and it is getting harder to read your responses so they can be given thought before I reply.
Thank you in advance.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
It was interesting to learn that the MACO was apparently dismantled in the Kelvin Timeline. Makes kinda sense, since we never heared from them in the later shows. (of course, retcons being the way they are, it could be equally likely they just were never shown or mentioned on-screen.)
@artan42, you really shouldn't do this blue-is-my-response-to-quote thingy. there is a way to break up quotes. But I would also advise against using that. Once you go to the point of a discussion where you do sentence or paragraph by paragraph quotes and have multiples of them per post, things get messy, people lose track, and the discussion has basically reached a dead end-cycle that will not produce any new insights and will be ignored by most readers, probably even the ones still writing new posts.
Also, blue on black is terrible to read.
Mustrum "Just trying to be helpful, not playing armchair moderator" Ridcully
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Small request. Can you use a different highlight color? The dark blue on the dark grey background is blurry and it is getting harder to read your responses so they can be given thought before I reply.
Thank you in advance.
I've split it up. @mustrumridcully0 I like to answer to every point raised. it's not always convenient to split everything up when things get longer, so when it's over a few quote boxes longer it's much easier to add responses in. I may try a different colour though if it's unreadable. Blue on black (or dark grey in this case) is fine for me to read.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Except that contradicts almost everything we know about Starfleet. All 'branches' Kirk's, Picard's, and Siskos have the same protocols and procedures, the same ships, the same departments, and so on. It also directly contradicts Scotty's 'Starfleet is not a military organisation as he would have said something like 'Half of Starfleet is still a military I don't know what X is moaning about'.
There's no different 'branches', it's a exploration force that occasionally is called upon for defence. A paramilitary humanitarian armada. That's all the shows and films suggest and all there is to it.
I wish people would stop saying that. It dosn't affect everything. The incursion did not affect events that pre-dated it. The end of the Earth-Romulan War and the disbanding of MACO happened prior to the destruction of the Kelvin. It happened in both universes/timelines. Starfleet is not a military in either.
Have you seen DS9? It has many other roles, it spends a whole episode scanning the wormhole. It spends its time on colonisation duties. And, no, both 'branches' (i.e. a made up distinction) have the same ships. The Excelsior was scanning gaseous anomalies in the Beta Quadrant and Excelsior Classes were involved in the Dominion War. That's the Excelsior in both 'branches'. I could keep going with Mirandas, Akiras, Intrepids, Galaxys, Defiants etc.
That's changing protocols due to time periods not due to these so called 'branches' that's not even tangentially related to what anyone was talking about.
Take a deep breath. I point out that YOU said Kirk, Picard, and Sisko had the same protocols and procedures. When I show they didn't you hand wave that things shift over time. Pick a stance please.
Their stances on things differ through time not through 'branches'. It's hardly unclear what I was saying.
You claim they all have the same ships. But I mention how no they don't and that one such ship was envisioned as a pure warship.
And as there are no different branches it is immaterial. But for sake of argument I pointed out how both 'branches' use Excelsiors.
Bombers for the second world war were built to kill people. Didn't stop them using them to air drop food and candy to people in the lead up to the Berlin wall. So the statement of Defiant being built differently is still valid.
No it's not. The defiant is an anomaly. It wouldn't be necessary to point out it was a specific warship if that was the norm.
As for the divide in Prime and KT time lines I conceded that the events of Enterprise seem left unchanged. The only spot of contention is the borg probe left after First Contact. But the actions of the people involved now have been changed. Star Trek (2009) even stated that no matter what their fates have been changed. In the prime timeline, the Enterprise and crew found Khan and dealt with him. (Sudden thought but was that a zero body count episode?) As far as we know Admiral Marcus never made a pure warship and tried to start a war with the Klingons. All prime timeline.
He didn't. Section 32 remained in the shadows even through DS9 in the PT, Marcus brought it into the open in the KT. It still dosn't change events prior to the Kelvin event.
So how can we say that priorities are not skewed in the KT universe? So using a quote from one of them is not valid for the opinions of people in the prime timeline.
Because the Marcus thing you helpfully posted shows the complete opposite. A Starfleet that would move towards militarisation. But again, I've given up citing evidence from Picard or O'Brien, or Bashir because it's all summarily ignored in favour of colloquialisms and bad logic.
So you wish to say that Beyond wipes all previous canon and that nothing else matters because it is the latest movie. Then lets stop quoting ToS, movies, TNG, DS9, Voyager, and the first two KT movies. Because only the latest release is valid? Is that what you are suggesting?
Um, no. Where there's a contradiction the newest wins out. It's how retcons work. Stop strawmanning and start reading.
Early TNG suggested that the Klingons were part of the Federation, later TNG overwrote it. Early TOS suggested Starfleet might have been military, later Trek overwrote it. The latest Trek (Beyond) outright states that starfleet is not a military organisation, a decision that was made prior to the Kelvin incident.
So between ENT and up to TUC Starfleet is not a military (as Scotty says) TNG certainly isn't according to Picard and O'Brien refutes the idea of DS9s Starfleet being a military. That's just three people, there's more examples but I'm only sticking with the three I've already mentioned. Three different eras, two different realities, several different characters, innumerable episodes with different plots all in support of a non-military Starfleet vs. people unable to look up 'paramilitary' and really bad logic (seriously, did you read the 'evidence' about military ranks being used as proof?)
Okay highlighting your words I can read them. Apologies for the delay.
I have looked up paramilitary and find the definition fails to support your claims. I did concede rank structure as ships even in ocean liner services use them. Though I did ask if any one of those had someone with the rank of admiral. Less as put down of the argument and a request to be amused by a fact I don't have available. (I think and admiral of cruise ships would be funny.)
So please stop saying I am still arguing a point I did say you were correct on.
My point on the head-canon of multiple specialties in Starfleet neatly fixing issues seen is we do hear in some points of marines and of them being soldiers. And in others not. In Kirk's era the ambassadors were a separate force and were given authority to summon a starship to guard wheat silos or try and have Scotty put on trial because he would not lower shields over a hostile planet. (Seriously the ambassadors of the time seem a bit naïve compared to Kirk's people.) But we do see multiple 'branches' and specialities in Starfleet. Command (Stand alone segment that you seem to enter from another branch.) Sciences which seems to be history, archaeology, as well as laboratory sciences. And clumps in medical branch. Operations which held communications, security, and engineering. So there are branches. Picard was a helmsman despite a science background. Sisko an engineer, Janeway was sciences, no real clue on Kirk. I know he served on other ships but not his lower rank function. We know they build ships with alternate primary function.
Again please note I agreed with the galaxy class being eclectic and heavily armed while carrying families because it was intended to be used beyond federation borders. Sadly it only seemed to go beyond those borders accidentally. Let me state here and for the record. I never commented of the crew fraternization because you have a point. There seems to be no rules or regulations on the matter. Though the fraternization of crew with aliens is several centimeters thick? (Never understood that one.) Back at point I am wandering. Different branches with differently focused ships would have differing priorities. Looking at Undiscovered Country I see that as the shift from the more militant guarding the border era to the more relaxed Picard peace time explorers era. An end to a cold war as it were. The question asking if it meant mothballing the fleet was not given by a conspirator and the admiral that replied seemed almost weary when he said he did not think it would affect scientific and exploration functions. The implication being they did in fact post large portions of people to just watching the border. Turning the swords into plowshares.
I have not seen Beyond. From what I am hearing on these forums I think I should though. Sounds like a good movie and probably a good Star Trek movie. The reported scene of what happened to the Macos? Sounds like a good bridge explaining why they did not exist from Enterprise till STO. Disbanded as they did not fit the needs of the time. resurrected when the need came again.
I can safely call the Starfleet a military because in many ways it really is. But its role is dynamic. Shifting priorities to fit the needs of now to protect the ideals it was founded upon. Can the military do science? Yes. Can Starfleet protect you while you perform science? Yes. The head-canon explains all of Starfleet in my opinion. It says you and I are not wrong. We are just focusing on different parts of a much larger whole.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
I have looked up paramilitary and find the definition fails to support your claims.
A paramilitary is a semi-militarized force whose organizational structure, tactics, training, subculture, and (often) function are similar to those of a professional military, and which is not included as part of a state's formal armed forces. Under the law of war, a state may incorporate a paramilitary organization or armed agency (such as a national police, a private volunteer militia) into its combatant armed forces. The other parties to a conflict have to be notified thereof.
That describes Starfleet to a T with a small exception. It becomes the armed forces rather than joins them.
I did concede rank structure as ships even in ocean liner services use them. Though I did ask if any one of those had someone with the rank of admiral. Less as put down of the argument and a request to be amused by a fact I don't have available. (I think and admiral of cruise ships would be funny.)
So please stop saying I am still arguing a point I did say you were correct on.
Was that you? I think I may have mixed up a quote somewhere. But I'm not saying you're still saying that, but rather that it's an example of the amount of stretching needed to make Starfleet into a military.
My point on the head-canon of multiple specialties in Starfleet neatly fixing issues seen is we do hear in some points of marines and of them being soldiers. And in others not.
There's no onscreen mention of Marines at all (beyond a illegible easter egg to the FSA game) but references to being soldiers come from characters using colloquialisms. When fighting in a war, even civilians can feel like soldiers. It's not even a difference in 'branches' Kirk's also claimed his authority comes from the United Earth Space Probe Agency, hardly the name of a military oversight council is it?
In Kirk's era the ambassadors were a separate force and were given authority to summon a starship to guard wheat silos or try and have Scotty put on trial because he would not lower shields over a hostile planet. (Seriously the ambassadors of the time seem a bit naïve compared to Kirk's people.)
That's true, but probably because it's the Federation diplomatic service and not Starfleets.
But we do see multiple 'branches' and specialities in Starfleet. Command (Stand alone segment that you seem to enter from another branch.) Sciences which seems to be history, archaeology, as well as laboratory sciences. And clumps in medical branch. Operations which held communications, security, and engineering. So there are branches. Picard was a helmsman despite a science background. Sisko an engineer, Janeway was sciences, no real clue on Kirk. I know he served on other ships but not his lower rank function. We know they build ships with alternate primary function.
They're departments. Branches would be similar to the corps like Starfleet Security or Starfleet Medical or Starfleet Intelligence. Different to the ship departments. But even Starfleet Security is just that, it's not Starfleet army, or the Starfleet ground troops.
Again please note I agreed with the galaxy class being eclectic and heavily armed while carrying families because it was intended to be used beyond federation borders. Sadly it only seemed to go beyond those borders accidentally.
The same goes for all Starfleet vessels though was my point. The Defiant is the single exception where it was less of a multi-role ship and more a warship Sisko took out exploring every so often.
Let me state here and for the record. I never commented of the crew fraternization because you have a point. There seems to be no rules or regulations on the matter. Though the fraternization of crew with aliens is several centimeters thick? (Never understood that one.)
Back at point I am wandering. Different branches with differently focused ships would have differing priorities. Looking at Undiscovered Country I see that as the shift from the more militant guarding the border era to the more relaxed Picard peace time explorers era. An end to a cold war as it were. The question asking if it meant mothballing the fleet was not given by a conspirator and the admiral that replied seemed almost weary when he said he did not think it would affect scientific and exploration functions. The implication being they did in fact post large portions of people to just watching the border. Turning the swords into plowshares.
That would only work if I had implied that starfleet didn't undertake defence or patrol work. That's one of my only problems with TUC that there is really no scope for the militarised Starfleet as the Organians ended the war (such as it was) back in TOS series 1. But it's what happened in DS9, you got a bunch of Starfleet officers in old TMP era ships (like the Centaur) suddenly in Dominion territory. That's not the work of a military, that's the work of a exploration fleet digging the same mothballed ships out and sending them back out on patrol.
I have not seen Beyond. From what I am hearing on these forums I think I should though. Sounds like a good movie and probably a good Star Trek movie. The reported scene of what happened to the Macos? Sounds like a good bridge explaining why they did not exist from Enterprise till STO. Disbanded as they did not fit the needs of the time. resurrected when the need came again.
It's a fantastic film. As for the MACO stuff. There's more I could have said of it that would clear up some dialogue but if you haven't seen it I will not elaborate yet.
I can safely call the Starfleet a military because in many ways it really is. But its role is dynamic. Shifting priorities to fit the needs of now to protect the ideals it was founded upon. Can the military do science? Yes. Can Starfleet protect you while you perform science? Yes. The head-canon explains all of Starfleet in my opinion. It says you and I are not wrong. We are just focusing on different parts of a much larger whole.
That's why I call it a paramilitary because it fits that definition with far less (i.e. next to no) definition beaning or leaps in logic. But the point Mustrum made says it best. Take the research capabilities away from (for example) the USN and you still have a military. Take the research capabilities away from starfleet and you no longer have Starfleet.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
That's why I call it a paramilitary because it fits that definition with far less (i.e. next to no) definition beaning or leaps in logic. But the point Mustrum made says it best. Take the research capabilities away from (for example) the USN and you still have a military. Take the research capabilities away from starfleet and you no longer have Starfleet.
Cutting this down to avoid a wall of text.*
Thank you for the color change. Much easier to read.
I think I must be countering multiple arguments at once and confusing myself on who said what. As I mentioned taking science from Starfleet still be Starfleet was a good point.
As for marines. Correct me if I am wrong but the siege of AR54(something) number escapes me at the moment. Where Sisko went to offer relief supplies to Starfleet personnel there and Nog lost his leg. I believe the men there were called marines.
Your branches versus departments argument is compelling.
I am dubious on the early episode mention of authority coming from the United Earth Space Probe Agency. Because I believe they never mentioned Starfleet or the Federation before that. So that might be one of the retcons. Another interesting question. What retcons are valid? After all the Organian treaty seemed to stop an initial war, cause a minor bit of posturing. (Two or three episodes.) Then forgotten by the time of the movies.
Though we have been arguing the military vs. not military point for some time. I ask this. How did we get here again? The initial point was Daniels being in section 31. (And that makes me feel more justified in feeling manipulated by him.)
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Artan, youre not an authority on anything let alone someones personal headcanon. So Im going to step away from this discussion because at this point nothings going to come of it. Youre going to continue to fuss and fight with anyone with a different opinion from yours even when it has no effect on you or Star Trek or its canon. So you can continue to stomp your feet in here all you want.
First off its headcanon so its not going to fix every issue with Starfleet.
Second off in the Undiscovered Country the Admirals worry about having to "mothball" the fleet in face of the Klingons becoming non-hostile. Now why would they worry about mothballing the fleet if Starfleet is everything you claim it to be? If all they do is peacekeep and explore. Why are they scared theyll lose ships?
The characters in the shows arent even the best sources here. At one point in early TNG they talk of the Klingons joining the Federation. Are you going to start arguing that Klingons shouldnt have their own government and ships based on comments by a character in TNG now?
Starfleet can not function as solely a peacekeeping and exploration organization. Not when they admit they go to war. No matter what you argue or how you try to argue it. If Starfleet wasnt the military, it wouldnt perform the militarys duty of defending its sovereign nation/faction.
Are you going to deny the Dominion War now?
It really doesn't "fix" any issues, as they are non. It really is only bickering about semantics, people want to call it a military to a) relate to it in real life (mostly service people) and b) cram it into a present day reference. They overlook that the fictional source material clearly describes Starfleet as not a military multiple times in plain dialogue - whatever you think "military" means or whatever you piece together is irrelevant, the statement is canonical and you have to extrapolate from this statement, not from somewhere else and ignore it - that's not how things work.
To the second point, the solution to the statement is adressed in the same dialogue. The exploration would be unaffected by it, meaning no the fleet isn't mothballed. It is a ludicrous statement to begin with that can only be explained by paranoid emotions by that particular Admiral who got too comfortable in his function. Because even when the Klingon war was over, what about all the other conflicts Starfleet is engaged in, all the defensive functions and finally the scientific and (mentioned) explorative functions. It is a weird statement that doesnt really make sense and is immedeatly adressed as well.
A the "going to war" thing, all the pro-military people seem like they wouldn't even read the discussion at all. Starfleet is the UFPs substitute service for a full-time military. They fight in wars. They make pew pew. Nobody is arguing against that, but that doesn't mean the anonical statements of a different societal order and a different nature of Starfleet's service is false.
Are you daft or dont you understand the concept of headcanon?
MCCOY: How many more men must die before you two begin to act like military men instead of fools? [addressing Kirk and Spock]
A clear line of dialogue from a canon character.
'Acting like'. Unclear line of dialogue from a canon character open to much interpretation specifically relating to the behavior of a crewmember who would be, at that time, undertaking in military work, something I've never denied Starfleet (as a paramilitary) undertakes.
WORF: Fifty-two disruptor banks, twenty-seven photon torpedo bays, primary and secondary shields. PICARD: She's a predator.
Double standards? Look at all those torpedo tubes on the new Enterprise—she's a military ship.
She's massively outgunned by the Scimitar. Even if she weren't. Starfleet operates in space, in dangerous terat... I'm not going over that again. Just go read my response to the last time that came up.
SISKO: Now you listen to me, Quark, because I'm only going to say this one time. I care about Nog and every soldier under my command. Understood? Every single one.
Is Sisko a rookie?
No. It was unnecessary of me to even say rooky, keeping my response to colonialism would have sufficed.
AIDE-DE-CAMP: This briefing is classified. Ladies and Gentlemen, the C-in-C. C in C: As you were. I'll break this information down succinctly. The Klingon Empire has roughly fifty years of life left. ...For full details, I am turning this briefing over to Federation Special Envoy.
[. . .]
MILITARY AIDE: Bill, are we talking about mothballing the Starfleet?
A reserve fleet is a collection of naval vessels of all types that are fully equipped for service but are not currently needed, and thus partially or fully decommissioned. A reserve fleet is informally said to be "in mothballs" or "mothballed".
More evidence that Starfleet is a navy; therefore, a military force.
[/quote]
Wow. This one again. Starfleet is not a military. That is proven ergo previously military specific terms must now (in the future obviously) have been expanded to include non-military systems.
JAG was a good point but aide-de-camp and court martial are stretching it too far, but mothball!! Are you seriously suggesting mothball is evidence of a military? Really? Have you never mothballed your winter clothes over summer? never mothballed parts of an old computer or car? Seriously. Are you actually looking up specific military definitions for words, using them as evidence, then not bothering to look and see if they might possibly be used outside of the military?
KAMALA: Perhaps the ambassador is right. Perhaps I should remain in my quarters. PICARD: I have confidence in the self-control of my crew, Kamala, but there are guests and civilians on board.
A clear line of dialogue that Picard doesn't consider the crew of the Enterprise to be civilians.
GUL EVEK: The fact that my ship was attacked suggests that your efforts have met with limited success. They came at us with photon torpedoes and type eight phasers. Tell me, Captain, how do you suppose that a group of civilians acquired such weaponry? PICARD: I can assure you it was not through official channels. GUL EVEK: So you don't think the fact that some of the Maquis are former Starfleet officers has anything to do with it? PICARD: Starfleet does not condone the Maquis' actions in the Demilitarised Zone any more than your government would condone the paramilitary actions of Cardassian civilians.
A clear evidence that Starfleet is not a paramilitary.
You post a word with two listed meanings and present a quote that refutes one but still follows the other and declare the quote refutes both?
Richard Keith "Rick" Berman (born December 25, 1945) is an American television producer. He is best known for his work as the executive producer of several of the Star Trek series, Star Trek: The Next Generation, Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, and Star Trek: Voyager; and several of the Star Trek theatrical productions, and for succeeding Gene Roddenberry as head of the Star Trek franchise, until the cancellation of Star Trek: Enterprise in 2005.
What would he know, right?
Who cares what he does or dosn't know? It's not a canon source and is therefore automatically rejected from the debate.
The very definition of a paramilitary is "a group of civilians trained and organized in a military fashion, but which do not represent the formal forces of a sovereign power." Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan"
You've already posted a definition of the word with two separate meanings and now claim there's only one?
CHEKOV (on viewscreen): The order comes from Admiral James T. Kirk. DAVID: I knew it! I knew it! All along the military has wanted to get their han...
Pretty clear.
Yes, from a civilian unlikely to think of Starfleet as scientific establishment due to what they were doing at the time. And again, colloquialism for the armed people in starships confiscating their research.
As for marines. Correct me if I am wrong but the siege of AR54(something) number escapes me at the moment. Where Sisko went to offer relief supplies to Starfleet personnel there and Nog lost his leg. I believe the men there were called marines.
The term has never once been spoken aloud in ST. They are referred to as ground troops only. Their uniforms with the departmental stripes indicate they are regular Starfleet officers in heavy uniforms.
I am dubious on the early episode mention of authority coming from the United Earth Space Probe Agency. Because I believe they never mentioned Starfleet or the Federation before that.
So that might be one of the retcons. Another interesting question. What retcons are valid? After all the Organian treaty seemed to stop an initial war, cause a minor bit of posturing. (Two or three episodes.) Then forgotten by the time of the movies.
It's unlikely the TOS films retconned the treaty, it's more likely the Organians stopped bothering with it. Perhaps it was too much energy and they had assumed that getting both sides to stop for a bit would get them talking and end it.
Though we have been arguing the military vs. not military point for some time. I ask this. How did we get here again? The initial point was Daniels being in section 31. (And that makes me feel more justified in feeling manipulated by him.)
No idea. It may have been my comment about S31 effectively becoming the Federation's military in ID as they don't have one.
Artan, youre not an authority on anything let alone someones personal headcanon. So Im going to step away from this discussion because at this point nothings going to come of it. Youre going to continue to fuss and fight with anyone with a different opinion from yours even when it has no effect on you or Star Trek or its canon. So you can continue to stomp your feet in here all you want.
And I never claimed to be. I'm also unconcerned with personal head canon, just pointing out it contradicts the show's canon. It'd in fact be far more helpful if the people that think Starfleet is a military just say it's their headcanon instead of trying to claim it's the show's canon.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
You know Section 31 is like the Fight Club. The First and Second Rule about them is we don't talk about them.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Are you daft or dont you understand the concept of headcanon?
You shared your headcanon, I replied to it indicating that a few things you headcanon were already cleared up in canon, the rest was a open discussion. Last I checked posting ones headcanon doesn't mean it's not allowed to talk about it, but if you do not want to that's fine, but maybe you shouldn't bring it up then.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
It's unlikely the TOS films retconned the treaty, it's more likely the Organians stopped bothering with it. Perhaps it was too much energy and they had assumed that getting both sides to stop for a bit would get them talking and end it.
Artan, youre not an authority on anything let alone someones personal headcanon. So Im going to step away from this discussion because at this point nothings going to come of it. Youre going to continue to fuss and fight with anyone with a different opinion from yours even when it has no effect on you or Star Trek or its canon. So you can continue to stomp your feet in here all you want.
And I never claimed to be. I'm also unconcerned with personal head canon, just pointing out it contradicts the show's canon. It'd in fact be far more helpful if the people that think Starfleet is a military just say it's their headcanon instead of trying to claim it's the show's canon.
If we are going meta to the show instead of treating the Federation and Starfleet as entities. I would say the problem is multiple writers with differing views. Just the difference in the prime directive is subjective between shows. (And often writers on the same show.) Where at certain points science takes a back seat to adventure. So to does the nature of Starfleet. For every episode where a captain has stood up and been a military commander and considered the Starfleet to be a military, there are others that denounce that very concept. Bad writing is what I had hoped to avoid commenting on because it sits right next to good writing. I approve and applaud Scotty in into Darkness. And cringe at him saying it next to the firing tubes on the side of his peaceful vessel. Saying they are explorers not military while carrying a 36 tube broadside is cringe worthy. Because it is overkill for a research vessel. And no space is not that dangerous or they would use this firepower more often just to do their survey missions. I put that as a plot hole from a man with no sense of scope or scale. Like seeing worlds destroyed in the sky as though they were moons and not light years away and likely not even a dot in the sky. I think that might be my problem with the military vs not in that scene. The ship is too overgunned (Yet never fires) And someone thinks they need a more pure warship?
As to the idea if s31 being the military of the federation. . I do not think so. They do not seem to fit the profile. Starfleet herself fits the profile better. (IE overt ships and weapons and standing on the line in a battle when called.) S31 fit the profile for CIA black ops more than a military. (Clandestine dirty work no one wants to do at all. As was noted. Everyone seems horrified by the genocidal virus they put out. But not enough to stop it.)
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
A sudden concern on my post. I am not restarting the Starfleet is a military line of discussion.
I am saying that if you hold the pattern for what one should be it fits better than a different organization. Like which is more like baseball. Basket ball or cricket?
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Cool, which one? You don't have to give me a title. But a synopsis and I can find it myself and watch it, please.
Sorry, I've just looked it up myself and it was from Friendship One, i.e. a probe that predates TOS. Still, the idea of UESPA was still knocking about in the heads of the writers so it can be assumed it hadn't been retconned out. It also appeared on the Ent B's dedication plaque.
If we are going meta to the show instead of treating the Federation and Starfleet as entities. I would say the problem is multiple writers with differing views. Just the difference in the prime directive is subjective between shows. (And often writers on the same show.) Where at certain points science takes a back seat to adventure. So to does the nature of Starfleet. For every episode where a captain has stood up and been a military commander and considered the Starfleet to be a military, there are others that denounce that very concept.
Well yes, but that inconsistency is still why paramilitary fits but military dosn't. Nobody has ever come out with phrasing as clear as Scotty in Beyond saying it is a military.
Bad writing is what I had hoped to avoid commenting on because it sits right next to good writing. I approve and applaud Scotty in into Darkness. And cringe at him saying it next to the firing tubes on the side of his peaceful vessel. Saying they are explorers not military while carrying a 36 tube broadside is cringe worthy. Because it is overkill for a research vessel. And no space is not that dangerous or they would use this firepower more often just to do their survey missions. I put that as a plot hole from a man with no sense of scope or scale. Like seeing worlds destroyed in the sky as though they were moons and not light years away and likely not even a dot in the sky. I think that might be my problem with the military vs not in that scene. The ship is too overgunned (Yet never fires) And someone thinks they need a more pure warship?
We'll have to agree to disagree there. I think they're armed in perfect equilibrium to the territory they operate in.
As to the idea if s31 being the military of the federation. . I do not think so. They do not seem to fit the profile. Starfleet herself fits the profile better. (IE overt ships and weapons and standing on the line in a battle when called.) S31 fit the profile for CIA black ops more than a military. (Clandestine dirty work no one wants to do at all. As was noted. Everyone seems horrified by the genocidal virus they put out. But not enough to stop it.)
Only in ID was my point. Marcus was building his own ships. Prior to that S31 commandeered Starfleet ships and personnel.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
There is headcanon and there is 'Canonheads'. They are not equivalent by any means.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Only in ID was my point. Marcus was building his own ships. Prior to that S31 commandeered Starfleet ships and personnel.
Ah, fair point. Reminds me of the stealth fighter. There were a number built long before congress knew about them. Then it became a serious issue for congress as they wanted to know why the 'first strike' weapons were made. And it seemed to find an excuse to scrap the lot of them and send men to prison. Marcus could have sold rank and file S31 people on the idea that it was a skunkworks and the ships and weapons were meant to be a deterrence rather than used to start and finish a war. Though the way Marcus offhandedly mentioned section 31 as though he was intimate with them. It begs the question of were they a covert intelligence agency in KT or a covert design shop? Ala Skunkworks.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
It begs the question of were they a covert intelligence agency in KT or a covert design shop? Ala Skunkworks.
They could be both.
The USA seems to have dozens of 3-letter agencies that do some form of undercover/espionage/sabotage/counter-esponiage/recon stuff, but other countries can do with a lot less, and let's face it - in TV shows or movies, they only add as many as they see fit, and a lot of people and organization need to double duty.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
It begs the question of were they a covert intelligence agency in KT or a covert design shop? Ala Skunkworks.
The indications we got through DS9 were that S31 received support from Starfleets uppers and from the Federations uppers. They were sanctioned and acted as the Federations intelligence agency in a similar way to what Starfleet Intelligence did for Starfleet. That is also how they acted in ENT. Going by the hints in 'Inquisition' they posses at least one cloaked Federation vessel so it's not really a stretch to imagine they design their own equipment. In the KT it seems they are officially being funded to produce ships. Marcus has his own Starbase and a model of the Dreadnought Class on his desk.
Kirk relieved Scotty just to conduct a military operation because you know, Starfleet's purpose is "exploration".
Aaaaand we're done. I've said before Starfleet is a paramilitary, part of it's mission is to act as a military. You're not even bothering to read the opposing arguments before replying. So I'll either continue the S31 discussion with others or move back to the military argument if you can come back having ready my posts. Good day .
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
you know, this topic is supposed to be about daniels being section 31...how about we stop with the off-topic nonsense and get back to that?
Pros:
A pattern to keep the Federation as top dog no matter what seems in keeping with S31's methods.
He seems one of the major ones actually steering events as opposed to making surgical fixes. (Captain Walker tries to remove temporal anomalies. Daniels seems to be trying to make specific ones.)
He is cagy of his own faction backers.
Cons:
He does not keep being a time traveler secret very well.
He seems to lack most of the smooth control seen in others of the section.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Unlikely. S31 are fanatical in their devotion to the Federation. Even to the point of attempting genocide for it. Daniels, if he was S31, would likely be using time travel to strengthen the Federation's position rather than simply protecting the timeline.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Comments
Except that contradicts almost everything we know about Starfleet. All 'branches' Kirk's, Picard's, and Siskos have the same protocols and procedures, the same ships, the same departments, and so on. It also directly contradicts Scotty's 'Starfleet is not a military organisation as he would have said something like 'Half of Starfleet is still a military I don't know what X is moaning about'.
There's no different 'branches', it's a exploration force that occasionally is called upon for defence. A paramilitary humanitarian armada. That's all the shows and films suggest and all there is to it.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
First off its headcanon so its not going to fix every issue with Starfleet.
Second off in the Undiscovered Country the Admirals worry about having to "mothball" the fleet in face of the Klingons becoming non-hostile. Now why would they worry about mothballing the fleet if Starfleet is everything you claim it to be? If all they do is peacekeep and explore. Why are they scared theyll lose ships?
The characters in the shows arent even the best sources here. At one point in early TNG they talk of the Klingons joining the Federation. Are you going to start arguing that Klingons shouldnt have their own government and ships based on comments by a character in TNG now?
Starfleet can not function as solely a peacekeeping and exploration organization. Not when they admit they go to war. No matter what you argue or how you try to argue it. If Starfleet wasnt the military, it wouldnt perform the militarys duty of defending its sovereign nation/faction.
Are you going to deny the Dominion War now?
First, your Scotty quote is an alternate timeline from the other shows except possibly Enterprise. (Though given how they had an episode about the crashed borg sphere that tends to get scary on how time will loop no matter what.)
And no they do not all have the same ships. Picard was not out just seeing galaxy classes. He saw oberths, mirandas, nebula. All different ships in Starfleet. So them having different jobs is justified. Voyager and DS9 Showed even more ships and varied the mix. Sisko's Defiant was intended to be a pure warship. Meaning one that did not have other duties.
And the same protocols and procedures? Kirk calls from the romulan border but it will be three hours till he gets a reply. Sisko even further away can call Earth for face to face conversations with his father. Just in the ability to get instructions versus their own authority the protocols changed. Note Janeway pointing out how all the old heroes of the Federation would be drummed out in the modern fleet.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
It really doesn't "fix" any issues, as they are non. It really is only bickering about semantics, people want to call it a military to a) relate to it in real life (mostly service people) and b) cram it into a present day reference. They overlook that the fictional source material clearly describes Starfleet as not a military multiple times in plain dialogue - whatever you think "military" means or whatever you piece together is irrelevant, the statement is canonical and you have to extrapolate from this statement, not from somewhere else and ignore it - that's not how things work.
To the second point, the solution to the statement is adressed in the same dialogue. The exploration would be unaffected by it, meaning no the fleet isn't mothballed. It is a ludicrous statement to begin with that can only be explained by paranoid emotions by that particular Admiral who got too comfortable in his function. Because even when the Klingon war was over, what about all the other conflicts Starfleet is engaged in, all the defensive functions and finally the scientific and (mentioned) explorative functions. It is a weird statement that doesnt really make sense and is immedeatly adressed as well.
A the "going to war" thing, all the pro-military people seem like they wouldn't even read the discussion at all. Starfleet is the UFPs substitute service for a full-time military. They fight in wars. They make pew pew. Nobody is arguing against that, but that doesn't mean the anonical statements of a different societal order and a different nature of Starfleet's service is false.
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
It's mainly due to people not been able to google 'paramilitary' and really bad logic like 'Starfleet ships are heavily armed so are obviously military'. There's absolutely no way to claim Starfleet is a military organisation without having to put your own head-canon over direct onscreen-canon combined with massive leaps in logic and selective reading (or viewing in this case).
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Take a deep breath. I point out that YOU said Kirk, Picard, and Sisko had the same protocols and procedures. When I show they didn't you hand wave that things shift over time. Pick a stance please.
You claim they all have the same ships. But I mention how no they don't and that one such ship was envisioned as a pure warship. Bombers for the second world war were built to kill people. Didn't stop them using them to air drop food and candy to people in the lead up to the Berlin wall. So the statement of Defiant being built differently is still valid.
As for the divide in Prime and KT time lines I conceded that the events of Enterprise seem left unchanged. The only spot of contention is the borg probe left after First Contact. But the actions of the people involved now have been changed. Star Trek (2009) even stated that no matter what their fates have been changed. In the prime timeline, the Enterprise and crew found Khan and dealt with him. (Sudden thought but was that a zero body count episode?) As far as we know Admiral Marcus never made a pure warship and tried to start a war with the Klingons. All prime timeline.
So how can we say that priorities are not skewed in the KT universe? So using a quote from one of them is not valid for the opinions of people in the prime timeline.
So you wish to say that Beyond wipes all previous canon and that nothing else matters because it is the latest movie. Then lets stop quoting ToS, movies, TNG, DS9, Voyager, and the first two KT movies. Because only the latest release is valid? Is that what you are suggesting?
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Their stances on things differ through time not through 'branches'. It's hardly unclear what I was saying.
And as there are no different branches it is immaterial. But for sake of argument I pointed out how both 'branches' use Excelsiors.
No it's not. The defiant is an anomaly. It wouldn't be necessary to point out it was a specific warship if that was the norm.
He didn't. Section 32 remained in the shadows even through DS9 in the PT, Marcus brought it into the open in the KT. It still dosn't change events prior to the Kelvin event.
Because the Marcus thing you helpfully posted shows the complete opposite. A Starfleet that would move towards militarisation. But again, I've given up citing evidence from Picard or O'Brien, or Bashir because it's all summarily ignored in favour of colloquialisms and bad logic.
Um, no. Where there's a contradiction the newest wins out. It's how retcons work. Stop strawmanning and start reading.
Early TNG suggested that the Klingons were part of the Federation, later TNG overwrote it. Early TOS suggested Starfleet might have been military, later Trek overwrote it. The latest Trek (Beyond) outright states that starfleet is not a military organisation, a decision that was made prior to the Kelvin incident.
So between ENT and up to TUC Starfleet is not a military (as Scotty says) TNG certainly isn't according to Picard and O'Brien refutes the idea of DS9s Starfleet being a military. That's just three people, there's more examples but I'm only sticking with the three I've already mentioned. Three different eras, two different realities, several different characters, innumerable episodes with different plots all in support of a non-military Starfleet vs. people unable to look up 'paramilitary' and really bad logic (seriously, did you read the 'evidence' about military ranks being used as proof?)
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Small request. Can you use a different highlight color? The dark blue on the dark grey background is blurry and it is getting harder to read your responses so they can be given thought before I reply.
Thank you in advance.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
@artan42, you really shouldn't do this blue-is-my-response-to-quote thingy. there is a way to break up quotes. But I would also advise against using that. Once you go to the point of a discussion where you do sentence or paragraph by paragraph quotes and have multiples of them per post, things get messy, people lose track, and the discussion has basically reached a dead end-cycle that will not produce any new insights and will be ignored by most readers, probably even the ones still writing new posts.
Also, blue on black is terrible to read.
Mustrum "Just trying to be helpful, not playing armchair moderator" Ridcully
I've split it up. @mustrumridcully0 I like to answer to every point raised. it's not always convenient to split everything up when things get longer, so when it's over a few quote boxes longer it's much easier to add responses in. I may try a different colour though if it's unreadable. Blue on black (or dark grey in this case) is fine for me to read.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Okay highlighting your words I can read them. Apologies for the delay.
I have looked up paramilitary and find the definition fails to support your claims. I did concede rank structure as ships even in ocean liner services use them. Though I did ask if any one of those had someone with the rank of admiral. Less as put down of the argument and a request to be amused by a fact I don't have available. (I think and admiral of cruise ships would be funny.)
So please stop saying I am still arguing a point I did say you were correct on.
My point on the head-canon of multiple specialties in Starfleet neatly fixing issues seen is we do hear in some points of marines and of them being soldiers. And in others not. In Kirk's era the ambassadors were a separate force and were given authority to summon a starship to guard wheat silos or try and have Scotty put on trial because he would not lower shields over a hostile planet. (Seriously the ambassadors of the time seem a bit naïve compared to Kirk's people.) But we do see multiple 'branches' and specialities in Starfleet. Command (Stand alone segment that you seem to enter from another branch.) Sciences which seems to be history, archaeology, as well as laboratory sciences. And clumps in medical branch. Operations which held communications, security, and engineering. So there are branches. Picard was a helmsman despite a science background. Sisko an engineer, Janeway was sciences, no real clue on Kirk. I know he served on other ships but not his lower rank function. We know they build ships with alternate primary function.
Again please note I agreed with the galaxy class being eclectic and heavily armed while carrying families because it was intended to be used beyond federation borders. Sadly it only seemed to go beyond those borders accidentally. Let me state here and for the record. I never commented of the crew fraternization because you have a point. There seems to be no rules or regulations on the matter. Though the fraternization of crew with aliens is several centimeters thick? (Never understood that one.) Back at point I am wandering. Different branches with differently focused ships would have differing priorities. Looking at Undiscovered Country I see that as the shift from the more militant guarding the border era to the more relaxed Picard peace time explorers era. An end to a cold war as it were. The question asking if it meant mothballing the fleet was not given by a conspirator and the admiral that replied seemed almost weary when he said he did not think it would affect scientific and exploration functions. The implication being they did in fact post large portions of people to just watching the border. Turning the swords into plowshares.
I have not seen Beyond. From what I am hearing on these forums I think I should though. Sounds like a good movie and probably a good Star Trek movie. The reported scene of what happened to the Macos? Sounds like a good bridge explaining why they did not exist from Enterprise till STO. Disbanded as they did not fit the needs of the time. resurrected when the need came again.
I can safely call the Starfleet a military because in many ways it really is. But its role is dynamic. Shifting priorities to fit the needs of now to protect the ideals it was founded upon. Can the military do science? Yes. Can Starfleet protect you while you perform science? Yes. The head-canon explains all of Starfleet in my opinion. It says you and I are not wrong. We are just focusing on different parts of a much larger whole.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
That describes Starfleet to a T with a small exception. It becomes the armed forces rather than joins them.
Was that you? I think I may have mixed up a quote somewhere. But I'm not saying you're still saying that, but rather that it's an example of the amount of stretching needed to make Starfleet into a military.
There's no onscreen mention of Marines at all (beyond a illegible easter egg to the FSA game) but references to being soldiers come from characters using colloquialisms. When fighting in a war, even civilians can feel like soldiers. It's not even a difference in 'branches' Kirk's also claimed his authority comes from the United Earth Space Probe Agency, hardly the name of a military oversight council is it?
That's true, but probably because it's the Federation diplomatic service and not Starfleets.
They're departments. Branches would be similar to the corps like Starfleet Security or Starfleet Medical or Starfleet Intelligence. Different to the ship departments. But even Starfleet Security is just that, it's not Starfleet army, or the Starfleet ground troops.
The same goes for all Starfleet vessels though was my point. The Defiant is the single exception where it was less of a multi-role ship and more a warship Sisko took out exploring every so often.
I don't think I made that point
That would only work if I had implied that starfleet didn't undertake defence or patrol work. That's one of my only problems with TUC that there is really no scope for the militarised Starfleet as the Organians ended the war (such as it was) back in TOS series 1. But it's what happened in DS9, you got a bunch of Starfleet officers in old TMP era ships (like the Centaur) suddenly in Dominion territory. That's not the work of a military, that's the work of a exploration fleet digging the same mothballed ships out and sending them back out on patrol.
It's a fantastic film. As for the MACO stuff. There's more I could have said of it that would clear up some dialogue but if you haven't seen it I will not elaborate yet.
That's why I call it a paramilitary because it fits that definition with far less (i.e. next to no) definition beaning or leaps in logic. But the point Mustrum made says it best. Take the research capabilities away from (for example) the USN and you still have a military. Take the research capabilities away from starfleet and you no longer have Starfleet.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Cutting this down to avoid a wall of text.*
Thank you for the color change. Much easier to read.
I think I must be countering multiple arguments at once and confusing myself on who said what. As I mentioned taking science from Starfleet still be Starfleet was a good point.
As for marines. Correct me if I am wrong but the siege of AR54(something) number escapes me at the moment. Where Sisko went to offer relief supplies to Starfleet personnel there and Nog lost his leg. I believe the men there were called marines.
Your branches versus departments argument is compelling.
I am dubious on the early episode mention of authority coming from the United Earth Space Probe Agency. Because I believe they never mentioned Starfleet or the Federation before that. So that might be one of the retcons. Another interesting question. What retcons are valid? After all the Organian treaty seemed to stop an initial war, cause a minor bit of posturing. (Two or three episodes.) Then forgotten by the time of the movies.
Though we have been arguing the military vs. not military point for some time. I ask this. How did we get here again? The initial point was Daniels being in section 31. (And that makes me feel more justified in feeling manipulated by him.)
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Are you daft or dont you understand the concept of headcanon?
'Acting like'. Unclear line of dialogue from a canon character open to much interpretation specifically relating to the behavior of a crewmember who would be, at that time, undertaking in military work, something I've never denied Starfleet (as a paramilitary) undertakes.
Yes. What of it? He attempts to order Scotty to sign and when he refuses he accepts his resignation. I don't see what you're point is.
She's massively outgunned by the Scimitar. Even if she weren't. Starfleet operates in space, in dangerous terat... I'm not going over that again. Just go read my response to the last time that came up.
No. It was unnecessary of me to even say rooky, keeping my response to colonialism would have sufficed.
More evidence that Starfleet is a navy; therefore, a military force.
[/quote]
Wow. This one again. Starfleet is not a military. That is proven ergo previously military specific terms must now (in the future obviously) have been expanded to include non-military systems.
JAG was a good point but aide-de-camp and court martial are stretching it too far, but mothball!! Are you seriously suggesting mothball is evidence of a military? Really? Have you never mothballed your winter clothes over summer? never mothballed parts of an old computer or car? Seriously. Are you actually looking up specific military definitions for words, using them as evidence, then not bothering to look and see if they might possibly be used outside of the military?
Correct. And? Civilian is commonly used to mean 'person outside our sphere'. Another example of you ignoring non-military definitions of words.
Ditto.
You post a word with two listed meanings and present a quote that refutes one but still follows the other and declare the quote refutes both?
Who cares what he does or dosn't know? It's not a canon source and is therefore automatically rejected from the debate.
You've already posted a definition of the word with two separate meanings and now claim there's only one?
Yes, from a civilian unlikely to think of Starfleet as scientific establishment due to what they were doing at the time. And again, colloquialism for the armed people in starships confiscating their research.
The term has never once been spoken aloud in ST. They are referred to as ground troops only. Their uniforms with the departmental stripes indicate they are regular Starfleet officers in heavy uniforms.
It's brought up again in VOY.
It's unlikely the TOS films retconned the treaty, it's more likely the Organians stopped bothering with it. Perhaps it was too much energy and they had assumed that getting both sides to stop for a bit would get them talking and end it.
No idea. It may have been my comment about S31 effectively becoming the Federation's military in ID as they don't have one.
And I never claimed to be. I'm also unconcerned with personal head canon, just pointing out it contradicts the show's canon. It'd in fact be far more helpful if the people that think Starfleet is a military just say it's their headcanon instead of trying to claim it's the show's canon.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
You shared your headcanon, I replied to it indicating that a few things you headcanon were already cleared up in canon, the rest was a open discussion. Last I checked posting ones headcanon doesn't mean it's not allowed to talk about it, but if you do not want to that's fine, but maybe you shouldn't bring it up then.
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Cool, which one? You don't have to give me a title. But a synopsis and I can find it myself and watch it, please.
Fair point.
If we are going meta to the show instead of treating the Federation and Starfleet as entities. I would say the problem is multiple writers with differing views. Just the difference in the prime directive is subjective between shows. (And often writers on the same show.) Where at certain points science takes a back seat to adventure. So to does the nature of Starfleet. For every episode where a captain has stood up and been a military commander and considered the Starfleet to be a military, there are others that denounce that very concept. Bad writing is what I had hoped to avoid commenting on because it sits right next to good writing. I approve and applaud Scotty in into Darkness. And cringe at him saying it next to the firing tubes on the side of his peaceful vessel. Saying they are explorers not military while carrying a 36 tube broadside is cringe worthy. Because it is overkill for a research vessel. And no space is not that dangerous or they would use this firepower more often just to do their survey missions. I put that as a plot hole from a man with no sense of scope or scale. Like seeing worlds destroyed in the sky as though they were moons and not light years away and likely not even a dot in the sky. I think that might be my problem with the military vs not in that scene. The ship is too overgunned (Yet never fires) And someone thinks they need a more pure warship?
As to the idea if s31 being the military of the federation. . I do not think so. They do not seem to fit the profile. Starfleet herself fits the profile better. (IE overt ships and weapons and standing on the line in a battle when called.) S31 fit the profile for CIA black ops more than a military. (Clandestine dirty work no one wants to do at all. As was noted. Everyone seems horrified by the genocidal virus they put out. But not enough to stop it.)
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
I am saying that if you hold the pattern for what one should be it fits better than a different organization. Like which is more like baseball. Basket ball or cricket?
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Sorry, I've just looked it up myself and it was from Friendship One, i.e. a probe that predates TOS. Still, the idea of UESPA was still knocking about in the heads of the writers so it can be assumed it hadn't been retconned out. It also appeared on the Ent B's dedication plaque.
Well yes, but that inconsistency is still why paramilitary fits but military dosn't. Nobody has ever come out with phrasing as clear as Scotty in Beyond saying it is a military.
We'll have to agree to disagree there. I think they're armed in perfect equilibrium to the territory they operate in.
Only in ID was my point. Marcus was building his own ships. Prior to that S31 commandeered Starfleet ships and personnel.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
I can agree to disagreeing.
Ah, fair point. Reminds me of the stealth fighter. There were a number built long before congress knew about them. Then it became a serious issue for congress as they wanted to know why the 'first strike' weapons were made. And it seemed to find an excuse to scrap the lot of them and send men to prison. Marcus could have sold rank and file S31 people on the idea that it was a skunkworks and the ships and weapons were meant to be a deterrence rather than used to start and finish a war. Though the way Marcus offhandedly mentioned section 31 as though he was intimate with them. It begs the question of were they a covert intelligence agency in KT or a covert design shop? Ala Skunkworks.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
The USA seems to have dozens of 3-letter agencies that do some form of undercover/espionage/sabotage/counter-esponiage/recon stuff, but other countries can do with a lot less, and let's face it - in TV shows or movies, they only add as many as they see fit, and a lot of people and organization need to double duty.
The indications we got through DS9 were that S31 received support from Starfleets uppers and from the Federations uppers. They were sanctioned and acted as the Federations intelligence agency in a similar way to what Starfleet Intelligence did for Starfleet. That is also how they acted in ENT. Going by the hints in 'Inquisition' they posses at least one cloaked Federation vessel so it's not really a stretch to imagine they design their own equipment. In the KT it seems they are officially being funded to produce ships. Marcus has his own Starbase and a model of the Dreadnought Class on his desk.
Aaaaand we're done. I've said before Starfleet is a paramilitary, part of it's mission is to act as a military. You're not even bothering to read the opposing arguments before replying. So I'll either continue the S31 discussion with others or move back to the military argument if you can come back having ready my posts. Good day
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Pros:
A pattern to keep the Federation as top dog no matter what seems in keeping with S31's methods.
He seems one of the major ones actually steering events as opposed to making surgical fixes. (Captain Walker tries to remove temporal anomalies. Daniels seems to be trying to make specific ones.)
He is cagy of his own faction backers.
Cons:
He does not keep being a time traveler secret very well.
He seems to lack most of the smooth control seen in others of the section.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!