Military rank: police, no check
Military Structure: Not present in Starfleet as evidenced by constant bitching about lack of protocols etc. from complainant's favourite military, no check.
Armed military grade vehicles: I raise you police tanks, no check.
Fighting in the Federation's war: Paramilitary (go google it), no check.
Looks like none of that checks out as being a duck, care to try again?
Police ranks? Not seeing a parallel there and they are paramilitary.
Lack of protocols is them carrying an idiot ball not a lack of structure. Admiral to captain to commander and down the line is structure.
Police tanks are not armed with city killing harpoon missiles. They are just armoured. so iffy comparison.
Fighting the wars. If they have not military the least they are is a militia. Which was how you got an army before standing ones were the norm.
And I joked about the platypus. . .
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Military rank: police, no check
Military Structure: Not present in Starfleet as evidenced by constant bitching about lack of protocols etc. from complainant's favourite military, no check.
Armed military grade vehicles: I raise you police tanks, no check.
Fighting in the Federation's war: Paramilitary (go google it), no check.
Looks like none of that checks out as being a duck, care to try again?
Police ranks? Not seeing a parallel there and they are paramilitary.
Lack of protocols is them carrying an idiot ball not a lack of structure. Admiral to captain to commander and down the line is structure.
Police tanks are not armed with city killing harpoon missiles. They are just armoured. so iffy comparison.
Fighting the wars. If they have not military the least they are is a militia. Which was how you got an army before standing ones were the norm.
And I joked about the platypus. . .
American police use military ranks with captains and lieutenants and what not. So basically military ranks are not specific to the military so are not evidence of something quaking like the military.
Extrapolation. Space is more dangerous than Missouri. Starfleet therefore carries weapons appropriate to its environment.
They are a paramilitary, they have the necessary equipment and training to substitute for a military if defence is called for.
I know, I was over labouring the metaphor. Nothing there was evidence of a military as all could be applied to the American police. To the police in places like Egypt even more so.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Maybe if the writers stopped making Starfleet look and behave like a military while denying that they are one, this argument would go away. Military rank and command structure? Check. Heavily armed and shielded vessels equivalent to other militaries of the time? Check. The ones to actually fight in any wars the Federation gets involved in? Check.
That waddling, quacking bird is definitely not a duck, though.
Military rank: police, no check
Military Structure: Not present in Starfleet as evidenced by constant bitching about lack of protocols etc. from complainant's favourite military, no check.
Armed military grade vehicles: I raise you police tanks, no check.
Fighting in the Federation's war: Paramilitary (go google it), no check.
Looks like none of that checks out as being a duck, care to try again?
First off, to feiqa, I said waddling, quacking bird, not egg-laying, billed creature. I know a monotreme when I see one.
As far as the "other things have some things in common with militaries, so Starfleet isn't a military" argument. Police forces are a much more recent invention than militaries, and borrowed heavily from them for structure and terminology. Sorry, still a duck. Just because geese are similar to ducks, doesn't make ducks any less ducks.
Police armored vehicles are not Abrams tanks, and they don't usually have military-grade ordinance on them. I doubt that even the most-militarized Western police force would stand up well against an actual military. Starfleet does.
Calling them a paramilitary is a non-starter when there's supposedly no military to be para- to. They could be fitting the other parts of the definition, "operating as, or in place of..." but that makes them the de facto military. They're a military when it comes to wartime, pure and simple, the rest is just semantic games by people who wrote themselves into a corner.
They do, in fact, have a command structure, as we've seen Riker take reports and dress-down subordinates, and Jellico relieve Riker of his position, not to mention Admirals come in and upset everything, not the least of which being Kirk taking command from Decker in that 2-hour sleeping pill guided heavily by the series creator. That there's a lack of protocol is the Hollywood depiction of all militaries in a nutshell. There's always way more backtalk in any movie or television military show than in the real thing in order to create drama and give actors something to do other than just do what they're told.
Still, waddling, still quacking, and it just got out of the puddle it was wading in and took flight. It's a duck.
This is an MMO, not a Star Trek episode simulator. That would make for a terrible game.
As far as the "other things have some things in common with militaries, so Starfleet isn't a military" argument. Police forces are a much more recent invention than militaries, and borrowed heavily from them for structure and terminology. Sorry, still a duck. Just because geese are similar to ducks, doesn't make ducks any less ducks.
And Starfleet is a much younger organisation than a military. It borrows borrowed heavily from them for structure and terminology
Police armored vehicles are not Abrams tanks, and they don't usually have military-grade ordinance on them. I doubt that even the most-militarized Western police force would stand up well against an actual military. Starfleet does.
Do police by and large operate in space? Do they operate in or near Klingon, Romulan, Cardassian, or Breen territory?
Calling them a paramilitary is a non-starter when there's supposedly no military to be para- to. They could be fitting the other parts of the definition, "operating as, or in place of..." but that makes them the de facto military. They're a military when it comes to wartime, pure and simple, the rest is just semantic games by people who wrote themselves into a corner.
No. They act as the Federation's military. They're still paramilitary.
They do, in fact, have a command structure, as we've seen Riker take reports and dress-down subordinates, and Jellico relieve Riker of his position, not to mention Admirals come in and upset everything, not the least of which being Kirk taking command from Decker in that 2-hour sleeping pill guided heavily by the series creator.
None of which is specifically military protocol. Hell, change the ranks and that's office protocol.
That there's a lack of protocol is the Hollywood depiction of all militaries in a nutshell. There's always way more backtalk in any movie or television military show than in the real thing in order to create drama and give actors something to do other than just do what they're told.
So? It doesn't follow modern military protocols, whether that's intention or not, it's still not quaking.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Except that it is being shown in the present and uses the language of the present, such as court-martial. What you are essentially suggesting is that people need a special dictionary that discards the existing dictionaries, just to be able to properly watch Star Trek. It doesn't work like that.
Roddenberry did create a fictional service. He worked in the air force, later police. He used ranks shared by the US Navy with other servies like the police or even the British Merchant Navy. It takes mission profiles of NASA and other research facilities and fuses them with defense, a essential service that however takes a back seat to all the other things SF does, most importantly space exploration (it is the catchphrase of the franchise). Paramilitary services around the world share that, performing a civilian function (mostly policing) with added defense responsibilities. The Academy credo is "Ex astris, scientia", we have clear as day dialogue references that it's not supposed to be a military (and no, Picard is not delusional or lying, it's exposition you need to work with creating headcanon of the many things not explained) and there are numerous examples of rather un-military procedures and protocol, including the "resign and rejoin as you wish" bit.
Starfleet is not a real service. It throws together a bunch of things, uses terminology rooted in real life but in different context (how many navy people complain about ship classification?). Starfleet doesn't have military designations for ships and avoids military terminology because they don't want to be one. To understand why Starfleet is not a nominal military but a substitute service for one you need to understand the intentions behind the writing of the UFP and the future Star Trek was meant to portray. It's really not that hard.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
I've read it and addressed it but you did not comprehend. You said that JAG doesn't have to be a military term. Well, it is. And unless it changes, you don't have an argument. But even if we went with your logic, what do you think JAG officers do in Starfleet? They administer courts-martial.
Twelve categories of people are subject to courts-martial, including military personnel, members of certain quasi-military organizations (such as Public Health Service members when serving with the armed forces), military prisoners, prisoners of war, and under very limited circumstances, certain specified categories of civilians. These individuals are subject to the military justice system regardless of where the incident in question occurred.
In other words, no matter who is on trial, a court-martial is still a military court by definition.
And yet language evolves. Military ranks were one specific to the military. The term will continue to evolve as it already is.
Your only argument against court-martial is that it was supposedly used in the trials of "two police officers and a member of the fire brigade", which you still failed to provide any sources for. This is where the part from the linked article titled "What is a court-martial?" comes in:
You are correct, I'm not digging around a landfill site digging up fossilised newspapers to scan for some bloke on the internet.
You brought up Surgeon General as a term of the British Armed Forces, and that it is supposedly used in the NHS now. However, a search indicates that it is a military specific term in the UK, while the NHS uses the term Chief Medical Officer instead.
Starfleet is an armed fleet. Therefore, it disqualifies any unarmed uniformed services as an analogy. And finally, American police doesn't have a navy.
Really? Do the American Police operate in space? Starfleet does.
Also, let me reword your point for you: 'The American Police are armed with guns. Therefore, it disqualifies any unarmed uniformed services as an analogy'.
I really don't think you understand your own argument.
We already know people have a hard time understanding that a fictional organization set hundreds of years from now on might work different than what we have today and that a society might also work on different principles than ours today.
Except that it is being shown in the present and uses the language of the present, such as court-martial. What you are essentially suggesting is that people need a special dictionary that discards the existing dictionaries, just to be able to properly watch Star Trek. It doesn't work like that.[/quote]
Roddenberry did create a fictional service. He worked in the air force, later police. He used ranks shared by the US Navy with other servies like the police or even the British Merchant Navy. It takes mission profiles of NASA and other research facilities and fuses them with defense, a essential service that however takes a back seat to all the other things SF does, most importantly space exploration (it is the catchphrase of the franchise). Paramilitary services around the world share that, performing a civilian function (mostly policing) with added defense responsibilities. The Academy credo is "Ex astris, scientia", we have clear as day dialogue references that it's not supposed to be a military (and no, Picard is not delusional or lying, it's exposition you need to work with creating headcanon of the many things not explained) and there are numerous examples of rather un-military procedures and protocol, including the "resign and rejoin as you wish" bit.
Starfleet is not a real service. It throws together a bunch of things, uses terminology rooted in real life but in different context (how many navy people complain about ship classification?). Starfleet doesn't have military designations for ships and avoids military terminology because they don't want to be one. To understand why Starfleet is not a nominal military but a substitute service for one you need to understand the intentions behind the writing of the UFP and the future Star Trek was meant to portray. It's really not that hard.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
When they say Starfleet isn't military I think they mean its not Starfleets primary purpose, diplomancy, discovery, humanitarian aid, science, exploration are the primary purpose, military use is a secondary reserve.
So it uses military structure because its an effective form of organization and so that its ready if violence breaks out, but its not the primary role.
When they say Starfleet isn't military I think they mean its not Starfleets primary purpose, diplomancy, discovery, humanitarian aid, science, exploration are the primary purpose, military use is a secondary reserve.
So it uses military structure because its an effective form of organization and so that its ready if violence breaks out, but its not the primary role.
Pretty much. It's a paramilitary not a military. It's a uniformed, organised, non military organisation that has the resources and equipment to be utilised as the Federation's de-facto military if war breaks out.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
When they say Starfleet isn't military I think they mean its not Starfleets primary purpose, diplomancy, discovery, humanitarian aid, science, exploration are the primary purpose, military use is a secondary reserve.
So it uses military structure because its an effective form of organization and so that its ready if violence breaks out, but its not the primary role.
Pretty much. It's a paramilitary not a military. It's a uniformed, organised, non military organisation that has the resources and equipment to be utilised as the Federation's de-facto military if war breaks out.
A defacto-military so good that six ships makes a Klingon fleet look for an excuse to excuse themselves. (DS9 Way of the Warrior pt2)
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
When they say Starfleet isn't military I think they mean its not Starfleets primary purpose, diplomancy, discovery, humanitarian aid, science, exploration are the primary purpose, military use is a secondary reserve.
So it uses military structure because its an effective form of organization and so that its ready if violence breaks out, but its not the primary role.
Pretty much. It's a paramilitary not a military. It's a uniformed, organised, non military organisation that has the resources and equipment to be utilised as the Federation's de-facto military if war breaks out.
A defacto-military so good that six ships makes a Klingon fleet look for an excuse to excuse themselves. (DS9 Way of the Warrior pt2)
Yes. Again Starfleet operates in space, dangerous space at that. Why do people assume only militaries can be well armed?
Most people on here are from America, a country where civilians can buy assault rifles for 'hunting' or 'home defence'
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
For me the "is Starfleet a military" question is inextricably linked to this: If Starfleet ISN'T a military what IS the Federation military?
It doesn't have one. It relies on its political weight, physical size, and its heavily armed paramilitary fleet.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Roddenberry did create a fictional service. He worked in the air force, later police. He used ranks shared by the US Navy with other servies like the police or even the British Merchant Navy. It takes mission profiles of NASA and other research facilities and fuses them with defense, a essential service that however takes a back seat to all the other things SF does, most importantly space exploration (it is the catchphrase of the franchise). Paramilitary services around the world share that, performing a civilian function (mostly policing) with added defense responsibilities. The Academy credo is "Ex astris, scientia", we have clear as day dialogue references that it's not supposed to be a military (and no, Picard is not delusional or lying, it's exposition you need to work with creating headcanon of the many things not explained) and there are numerous examples of rather un-military procedures and protocol, including the "resign and rejoin as you wish" bit.
Starfleet is not a real service. It throws together a bunch of things, uses terminology rooted in real life but in different context (how many navy people complain about ship classification?). Starfleet doesn't have military designations for ships and avoids military terminology because they don't want to be one. To understand why Starfleet is not a nominal military but a substitute service for one you need to understand the intentions behind the writing of the UFP and the future Star Trek was meant to portray. It's really not that hard.
And both of you have to contort language to end up at a distinction without a difference. You even accept de facto military, which is a military in all but name.
"That's not a duck. It's a Teal."
Edit: I will say that it's not like any modern military, in that its first priority is not making war or preparing to make war. If that's the hang-up, then fine, but something that acts as the military in an official capacity is the military, whether it likes to call itself that or not.
Oh, and judging by responses, some people might want to look up the Duck test.
This is an MMO, not a Star Trek episode simulator. That would make for a terrible game.
And both of you have to contort language to end up at a distinction without a difference. You even accept de facto military, which is a military in all but name.
Paramilitary is not a contortion of language.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Closer to topic. I think I know why Daniels rubs people the wrong way. our 23rd cen adventures were short and he was the talking head for the last three.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
I've read it and addressed it but you did not comprehend. You said that JAG doesn't have to be a military term. Well, it is. And unless it changes, you don't have an argument. But even if we went with your logic, what do you think JAG officers do in Starfleet? They administer courts-martial.
Twelve categories of people are subject to courts-martial, including military personnel, members of certain quasi-military organizations (such as Public Health Service members when serving with the armed forces), military prisoners, prisoners of war, and under very limited circumstances, certain specified categories of civilians. These individuals are subject to the military justice system regardless of where the incident in question occurred.
In other words, no matter who is on trial, a court-martial is still a military court by definition.
And yet language evolves. Military ranks were one specific to the military. The term will continue to evolve as it already is.
Unless the terms JAG and court-martial "evolve" into different meanings, you don't have an argument because we speak the language of the present. Well, maybe you don't.
As Court Martial already has, the argument stands.
Your only argument against court-martial is that it was supposedly used in the trials of "two police officers and a member of the fire brigade", which you still failed to provide any sources for. This is where the part from the linked article titled "What is a court-martial?" comes in:
You are correct, I'm not digging around a landfill site digging up fossilised newspapers to scan for some bloke on the internet.
Then you failed to support your argument.
Oh no, I've let the internet down. I'll resign from my position as 'person on the internet'.
You brought up Surgeon General as a term of the British Armed Forces, and that it is supposedly used in the NHS now. However, a search indicates that it is a military specific term in the UK, while the NHS uses the term Chief Medical Officer instead.
Not in all trusts. Read a little further.
Nothing about a non-military use of the term Surgeon General in the UK.
I've checked it, it's wikipedia. I'm not going to teach you how to read pages outside of that site though. I'd trust you to be able to use Google yourself.
Starfleet is an armed fleet. Therefore, it disqualifies any unarmed uniformed services as an analogy. And finally, American police doesn't have a navy.
Really? Do the American Police operate in space? Starfleet does.
Water police patrol waters in water craft but they still don't have a navy.
And yet Starfleet do. It's almost like you can't grasp what a space organisation would need. Spaceships would be a good start I'm guessing, preferable lots of them.
Also, let me reword your point for you: 'The American Police are armed with guns. Therefore, it disqualifies any unarmed uniformed services as an analogy'.
I really don't think you understand your own argument.
When they say Starfleet isn't military I think they mean its not Starfleets primary purpose, diplomancy, discovery, humanitarian aid, science, exploration are the primary purpose, military use is a secondary reserve.
So it uses military structure because its an effective form of organization and so that its ready if violence breaks out, but its not the primary role.
Pretty much. It's a paramilitary not a military. It's a uniformed, organised, non military organisation that has the resources and equipment to be utilised as the Federation's de-facto military if war breaks out.
The JAG is a legal branch of Starfleet and a court-martial is a military court. They operate at all times, not just at a time of war. See TNG: "The Measure of a Man".
Captain Phillipa Louvois, a 24th century Starfleet officer. The head of the twenty-third sector office of the Judge Advocate General.
Therefore, Starfleet is a military at all times.
Nopeskiy. It means Starfleet has a procedural court at all times, nothing more.
And both of you have to contort language to end up at a distinction without a difference. You even accept de facto military, which is a military in all but name.
Paramilitary is not a contortion of language.
How about a non-existent "evolution" of the military terms JAG and court-martial?
To get back to Section 31 for a moment. Since the introduction of Section 31 it has been my opinion that this explains the actions of Admiral Cartwright, Col. West, & Lt. Valeris, more so since Enterprise showed Section 31 willing to work with people from enemy nations if they percieved a gain for the Federation.
I don't think so. Unless it took a nosedive. Slone was efficient and meticulous. Cartwright and Docherty (in Insurrection) were morons. Hardly plans worthy of S31.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Dougherty in 'Insurrection' basically had the exact same assignment that Picard had in 'Journey's end', only difference was that Dougherty was an Admiral and instead of Cardassians, it was the Federation that claimed a planet this time.
Dougherty in 'Insurrection' basically had the exact same assignment that Picard had in 'Journey's end', only difference was that Dougherty was an Admiral and instead of Cardassians, it was the Federation that claimed a planet this time.
Oh please. Dougherty was a fool. "Our best minds don't know how any of it works." Well then how do you know the collector will work at all? Set up a small base on the far side of the planet and study. Bring people in for 'fitness extensions' until you know you can safely gather the stuff. And who knows. Not nuke the fountain of youth.
As for but who wants to live in the badlands? Oh I don't know a super secret base that it takes days for a ship to reach sounds pretty secure. The ships could communicate long range. So put a couple chains of repeater satellites and you can get orders and call for help as need be and keep a wary eye out for invaders. It is a ready made fortress. During a war.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
since starfleet also runs barely armed civilian craft in times of need, and minimally armed science oriented vessels and stations, i'd stay its a paramilitary that takes the place of a military when needed., AKA its a loon that dresses up like a duck.
Dougherty in 'Insurrection' basically had the exact same assignment that Picard had in 'Journey's end', only difference was that Dougherty was an Admiral and instead of Cardassians, it was the Federation that claimed a planet this time.
Oh please. Dougherty was a fool.
Everyone acted like a fool in this and the other TNG-movies. Even the Borg. I was just pointing out why Dougherty was most likely NOT part of S31.
If Starfleet doesn't consider itself to be either paramilitary or civilian, what does that leave?
Starfleet is like the Navy of the Federation. Their first priority may be exploration/science and solving domestic issues with diplomacy, but eventually, Starfleet is like the military wing of the Federation and can go full military in times of need. They also act as the Federation's police/law-enforcement.
Also, there are many Federation ships that are non-Starfleet. These ships can be specifically built for civil tasks while there are probably also several old Starfleet-ships still ending up on civil duty. It's hard to tell if the refitted Enterprise was still active part of Starfleet, or 'reserve', or even 'only' Federation when it became a training-vessel for cadets.
I would also point out the U.S. Navy has more than just combat ships. It runs cargo and support, sensor vessels, and hospital ships. Does that down grade the military branch of the U.S. down to paramilitary?
U.S. Air Force, cargo haulers, passenger craft, reconnaissance as well as weather and scientific craft. All besides bombers and fighters. Does that make them civilians?
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Please, Sloan's biggest plan failed miserably, as did the plans of the Section 31 operative on Enterprise, what happened with Cartwright fits right in. Never thought Dougherty was S31 though, no gain for the Federation in his actions, indigenous rights violations, working with war criminals, violation of the treaty with the Romulans, just too much negative backlash for an S31 op.
Slone's genocide plan failed because the Federation acted against itself. As long as he closed off the wormhole after infecting the Link it would have all worked out fine. I can't remember what happened on ENT but it was something to do with preventing Klingon Augments and it worked. If Dougherty's plan had have worked then the Federation would have had a magic drug and the only witnesses (the So'na) could be wiped out in the Dominion War so it wouldn't even have to be shared. 'indigenous rights violations'? Pales to genocide. 'Working with war criminals' John Harrison. 'Violation of the treaty with the Romulans', the same S31 that had Koval as a double agent? It's only backlash if S31 are implicated
As for @oliviaclaire you're argument's are starting to tire me. Claiming the Marquis is a paramilitary so the Federation can't be shows you don't understand what the word is. You're arguments and definitions are based on a predisposition that Starfleet is a military and working backwards from there in direct contradiction to how following evidence is supposed to work. There is evidence Starfleet is a military, however it is overridden by more evidence to the contrary. Instead you're starting with the weaker evidence for and just ignoring the evidence against because you've already appeared at your conclusion.
And worst of all, you're not even fun. Internet arguments are not serious. They might even have people grasping for straws, which they do (the JAG thing is a good point, but changing definitions do and are happening). I don't mind finding evidence for fun things (like the Borg vs. Empire thread in Ten Forward because it's fun watching TV or films you enjoy, but to ask for some form of evidence for anecdotes as though this was real life is boring, especially for those of us who do that sort of thing in their day job.
So until the next 'The Federation is da military wherez muh Space Marines!!!11one!!' thread pops up I just bother with the S31 bits now, sorry.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Slone's genocide plan failed because the Federation acted against itself. As long as he closed off the wormhole after infecting the Link it would have all worked out fine. I can't remember what happened on ENT but it was something to do with preventing Klingon Augments and it worked. If Dougherty's plan had have worked then the Federation would have had a magic drug and the only witnesses (the So'na) could be wiped out in the Dominion War so it wouldn't even have to be shared. 'indigenous rights violations'? Pales to genocide. 'Working with war criminals' John Harrison. 'Violation of the treaty with the Romulans', the same S31 that had Koval as a double agent? It's only backlash if S31 are implicated
Sloane I can let go. His plan did seem to have an very high chance of succeeding. His mistake was underestimating Starfleet officers.
Ent was supposed to be a way to curb the Klingon aggression by introducing fear. The augment process dropped in with a virus was working. They stopped the augment part but not the smooth the foreheads part and thus that plan actually did work.
Dougherty's plan was unbelievably STUPID! I am not defending the Baku as a species, nor am I calling their world paradise. And yes they had a wonderful effect there. One worthy of collecting. They were effectively using dynamite and a bulldozer to collect flower nectar. Maybe the sona'a were right and they had a process that worked. But Dougherty has zero proof of that. They don't know why the thermietic radiation cause rejuvenation. And they don't understand how the collector was going to pull the right mix of the stuff into a container. Therefore the mission as done was idiotic. Based on the other two missions where it worked or would have worked. This smells of run for glory not a victory.
Apologies if I sound rough. But the one part I hate is when people say Doughtery was right. Minored with how evil the baku were for denying anyone else the wonders of their planet. They are so selfish. No one asked them. If you want to make sandwiches. I am not selfish for not giving you the bread in my apartment to make them, if you never asked. And it does not give you the right to dynamite my apartment for it.
Answer a few questions. How long do the youth particles last in storage?
When if ever will the rings recover to make more of those particles?
If you answer they won't to the second question. Then you traded an infinite resource for a finite one. Now pick who lives a long time because of that.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Comments
Police ranks? Not seeing a parallel there and they are paramilitary.
Lack of protocols is them carrying an idiot ball not a lack of structure. Admiral to captain to commander and down the line is structure.
Police tanks are not armed with city killing harpoon missiles. They are just armoured. so iffy comparison.
Fighting the wars. If they have not military the least they are is a militia. Which was how you got an army before standing ones were the norm.
And I joked about the platypus. . .
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
American police use military ranks with captains and lieutenants and what not. So basically military ranks are not specific to the military so are not evidence of something quaking like the military.
Extrapolation. Space is more dangerous than Missouri. Starfleet therefore carries weapons appropriate to its environment.
They are a paramilitary, they have the necessary equipment and training to substitute for a military if defence is called for.
I know, I was over labouring the metaphor. Nothing there was evidence of a military as all could be applied to the American police. To the police in places like Egypt even more so.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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First off, to feiqa, I said waddling, quacking bird, not egg-laying, billed creature. I know a monotreme when I see one.
As far as the "other things have some things in common with militaries, so Starfleet isn't a military" argument. Police forces are a much more recent invention than militaries, and borrowed heavily from them for structure and terminology. Sorry, still a duck. Just because geese are similar to ducks, doesn't make ducks any less ducks.
Police armored vehicles are not Abrams tanks, and they don't usually have military-grade ordinance on them. I doubt that even the most-militarized Western police force would stand up well against an actual military. Starfleet does.
Calling them a paramilitary is a non-starter when there's supposedly no military to be para- to. They could be fitting the other parts of the definition, "operating as, or in place of..." but that makes them the de facto military. They're a military when it comes to wartime, pure and simple, the rest is just semantic games by people who wrote themselves into a corner.
They do, in fact, have a command structure, as we've seen Riker take reports and dress-down subordinates, and Jellico relieve Riker of his position, not to mention Admirals come in and upset everything, not the least of which being Kirk taking command from Decker in that 2-hour sleeping pill guided heavily by the series creator. That there's a lack of protocol is the Hollywood depiction of all militaries in a nutshell. There's always way more backtalk in any movie or television military show than in the real thing in order to create drama and give actors something to do other than just do what they're told.
Still, waddling, still quacking, and it just got out of the puddle it was wading in and took flight. It's a duck.
And Starfleet is a much younger organisation than a military. It borrows borrowed heavily from them for structure and terminology
Do police by and large operate in space? Do they operate in or near Klingon, Romulan, Cardassian, or Breen territory?
No. They act as the Federation's military. They're still paramilitary.
None of which is specifically military protocol. Hell, change the ranks and that's office protocol.
So? It doesn't follow modern military protocols, whether that's intention or not, it's still not quaking.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Roddenberry did create a fictional service. He worked in the air force, later police. He used ranks shared by the US Navy with other servies like the police or even the British Merchant Navy. It takes mission profiles of NASA and other research facilities and fuses them with defense, a essential service that however takes a back seat to all the other things SF does, most importantly space exploration (it is the catchphrase of the franchise). Paramilitary services around the world share that, performing a civilian function (mostly policing) with added defense responsibilities. The Academy credo is "Ex astris, scientia", we have clear as day dialogue references that it's not supposed to be a military (and no, Picard is not delusional or lying, it's exposition you need to work with creating headcanon of the many things not explained) and there are numerous examples of rather un-military procedures and protocol, including the "resign and rejoin as you wish" bit.
Starfleet is not a real service. It throws together a bunch of things, uses terminology rooted in real life but in different context (how many navy people complain about ship classification?). Starfleet doesn't have military designations for ships and avoids military terminology because they don't want to be one. To understand why Starfleet is not a nominal military but a substitute service for one you need to understand the intentions behind the writing of the UFP and the future Star Trek was meant to portray. It's really not that hard.
And about quaky ducks: http://www.whatbird.com/browse/objs/all/birds_na_147/20/bodyshape/303/duck-like
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And yet language evolves. Military ranks were one specific to the military. The term will continue to evolve as it already is.
You are correct, I'm not digging around a landfill site digging up fossilised newspapers to scan for some bloke on the internet.
Not in all trusts. Read a little further.
Really? Do the American Police operate in space? Starfleet does.
Also, let me reword your point for you: 'The American Police are armed with guns. Therefore, it disqualifies any unarmed uniformed services as an analogy'.
I really don't think you understand your own argument.
Except that it is being shown in the present and uses the language of the present, such as court-martial. What you are essentially suggesting is that people need a special dictionary that discards the existing dictionaries, just to be able to properly watch Star Trek. It doesn't work like that.[/quote]
Targ puts it better than I do.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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So it uses military structure because its an effective form of organization and so that its ready if violence breaks out, but its not the primary role.
Pretty much. It's a paramilitary not a military. It's a uniformed, organised, non military organisation that has the resources and equipment to be utilised as the Federation's de-facto military if war breaks out.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
A defacto-military so good that six ships makes a Klingon fleet look for an excuse to excuse themselves. (DS9 Way of the Warrior pt2)
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Yes. Again Starfleet operates in space, dangerous space at that. Why do people assume only militaries can be well armed?
Most people on here are from America, a country where civilians can buy assault rifles for 'hunting' or 'home defence'
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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My character Tsin'xing
It doesn't have one. It relies on its political weight, physical size, and its heavily armed paramilitary fleet.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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And both of you have to contort language to end up at a distinction without a difference. You even accept de facto military, which is a military in all but name.
"That's not a duck. It's a Teal."
Edit: I will say that it's not like any modern military, in that its first priority is not making war or preparing to make war. If that's the hang-up, then fine, but something that acts as the military in an official capacity is the military, whether it likes to call itself that or not.
Oh, and judging by responses, some people might want to look up the Duck test.
Paramilitary is not a contortion of language.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
I don't think so. Unless it took a nosedive. Slone was efficient and meticulous. Cartwright and Docherty (in Insurrection) were morons. Hardly plans worthy of S31.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Dougherty in 'Insurrection' basically had the exact same assignment that Picard had in 'Journey's end', only difference was that Dougherty was an Admiral and instead of Cardassians, it was the Federation that claimed a planet this time.
Oh please. Dougherty was a fool. "Our best minds don't know how any of it works." Well then how do you know the collector will work at all? Set up a small base on the far side of the planet and study. Bring people in for 'fitness extensions' until you know you can safely gather the stuff. And who knows. Not nuke the fountain of youth.
As for but who wants to live in the badlands? Oh I don't know a super secret base that it takes days for a ship to reach sounds pretty secure. The ships could communicate long range. So put a couple chains of repeater satellites and you can get orders and call for help as need be and keep a wary eye out for invaders. It is a ready made fortress. During a war.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Everyone acted like a fool in this and the other TNG-movies. Even the Borg. I was just pointing out why Dougherty was most likely NOT part of S31.
Starfleet is like the Navy of the Federation. Their first priority may be exploration/science and solving domestic issues with diplomacy, but eventually, Starfleet is like the military wing of the Federation and can go full military in times of need. They also act as the Federation's police/law-enforcement.
Also, there are many Federation ships that are non-Starfleet. These ships can be specifically built for civil tasks while there are probably also several old Starfleet-ships still ending up on civil duty. It's hard to tell if the refitted Enterprise was still active part of Starfleet, or 'reserve', or even 'only' Federation when it became a training-vessel for cadets.
U.S. Air Force, cargo haulers, passenger craft, reconnaissance as well as weather and scientific craft. All besides bombers and fighters. Does that make them civilians?
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Slone's genocide plan failed because the Federation acted against itself. As long as he closed off the wormhole after infecting the Link it would have all worked out fine. I can't remember what happened on ENT but it was something to do with preventing Klingon Augments and it worked. If Dougherty's plan had have worked then the Federation would have had a magic drug and the only witnesses (the So'na) could be wiped out in the Dominion War so it wouldn't even have to be shared. 'indigenous rights violations'? Pales to genocide. 'Working with war criminals' John Harrison. 'Violation of the treaty with the Romulans', the same S31 that had Koval as a double agent? It's only backlash if S31 are implicated
As for @oliviaclaire you're argument's are starting to tire me. Claiming the Marquis is a paramilitary so the Federation can't be shows you don't understand what the word is. You're arguments and definitions are based on a predisposition that Starfleet is a military and working backwards from there in direct contradiction to how following evidence is supposed to work. There is evidence Starfleet is a military, however it is overridden by more evidence to the contrary. Instead you're starting with the weaker evidence for and just ignoring the evidence against because you've already appeared at your conclusion.
And worst of all, you're not even fun. Internet arguments are not serious. They might even have people grasping for straws, which they do (the JAG thing is a good point, but changing definitions do and are happening). I don't mind finding evidence for fun things (like the Borg vs. Empire thread in Ten Forward because it's fun watching TV or films you enjoy, but to ask for some form of evidence for anecdotes as though this was real life is boring, especially for those of us who do that sort of thing in their day job.
So until the next 'The Federation is da military wherez muh Space Marines!!!11one!!' thread pops up I just bother with the S31 bits now, sorry.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Sloane I can let go. His plan did seem to have an very high chance of succeeding. His mistake was underestimating Starfleet officers.
Ent was supposed to be a way to curb the Klingon aggression by introducing fear. The augment process dropped in with a virus was working. They stopped the augment part but not the smooth the foreheads part and thus that plan actually did work.
Dougherty's plan was unbelievably STUPID! I am not defending the Baku as a species, nor am I calling their world paradise. And yes they had a wonderful effect there. One worthy of collecting. They were effectively using dynamite and a bulldozer to collect flower nectar. Maybe the sona'a were right and they had a process that worked. But Dougherty has zero proof of that. They don't know why the thermietic radiation cause rejuvenation. And they don't understand how the collector was going to pull the right mix of the stuff into a container. Therefore the mission as done was idiotic. Based on the other two missions where it worked or would have worked. This smells of run for glory not a victory.
Apologies if I sound rough. But the one part I hate is when people say Doughtery was right. Minored with how evil the baku were for denying anyone else the wonders of their planet. They are so selfish. No one asked them. If you want to make sandwiches. I am not selfish for not giving you the bread in my apartment to make them, if you never asked. And it does not give you the right to dynamite my apartment for it.
Answer a few questions. How long do the youth particles last in storage?
When if ever will the rings recover to make more of those particles?
If you answer they won't to the second question. Then you traded an infinite resource for a finite one. Now pick who lives a long time because of that.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.