You put out a game that lets you play different factions, it's not going to be half-assed experience everywhere else but one group.
Except in Star Trek Online.
Because, as is pointed out with monotonous regularity, that mirrors the wider franchise. Star Wars has a villain faction that is ubiquitous and every bit as popular as the heroes - Star Trek does not. And unlike (say) Warcraft, STO does have a much bigger, wider franchise to consider. Even the Klingons were only in a small proportion of episodes. Any KDF player who expects full parity is simply being unrealistic.
It also seems to play to player preferences. I think the 5-year infographic had 12% of players with Romulan alts - despite the Roms being nakedly OP with unique abilities, the best space traits and arguably the most destructive single ship in the game.
You put out a game that lets you play different factions, it's not going to be half-assed experience everywhere else but one group.
Except in Star Trek Online.
The Neutral races in Everquest were always less prominent than the Good and Evil ones. And the agnostic choice in terms of deity was actively inferior to making the choice once cultural crafted items were introduced.
LOL, keep in mind folks, that there have been Star Trek games that had multi-faction play (Birth of the Federation, Starfleet Command, etc), yet to flesh out a more complete experience with the other factions, they put in extra effort into them and not made them to be half-assed placeholders.
How many of these games were MMOs where you make one playable character and play him the game? How in depth were these games really, for any faction?
A game like 25th Anniversary or Final Unity was basically Fed-view only. A game like Star Trek Armada had multipe factions, but they were very similar except ship special abilities, and its single player game mode had one big story line that you were kinda expected to play through, you didn't get a complete experience if you only played one faction.
I didn't play Birth of the Federation, but it seems it did have no story content at all, it's a 4X game basically and the AI Klingons will ask for peace if a war is being lost and the AI Federation will demand tribute to not start a war, so the "authenticity" of the factions is not exactly respected either. If you consider STO's attempt at depicting the Klingon as "half-assed", where leaves that Birth of the Federation?
It doesn't matter if they were MMORPGs or not, because they enabled multi-faction play and did not skimp on what that meant.
It matters quite a lot what type of game it is, how it's distributed, how it is expected to be played. These differences matter quite a lot.None of the games you mentioned were free to play. They didn't finance themselves by people buying ships, for example. You are comparing apples to oranges.
And still you willfully ignore that these games had severe shortcomings actually in their "factional" support, because they simply didn't have the depth STO has to offer, not in story telling, not in gameplay, not in graphical detail.
You're putting these games on a pedestal that they don't deserve, and you most likely never played them as long and as intensively as you did play Star Trek Online.
Star Trek Online already has more Klingon ship classes than any of the games you mentioned, and that is even if you ignore al the customization options you have.
Going by the Wiki, this game comes with 17 Raiders, 18 Raptors, 34 Battlecruisers, 10 Carriers & Flight Deck Cruisers, 16 Destroyers and 9 Support & Science Vessels belonging to the Klingon Empire Faction.
I think even among games with heavy mod support you will find it difficult to find that many distinct ships.
Yes, the Federation might have two or three times that amount. But so what? The game is still ahead of most other Star Trek games by a magnitude.
You're comparing too much to games that were a lot less involved than Star Trek Online, and focus too much on faction envy to actually appreciate the amount of KDF content this game has to offer. Don't let that the Federation gets more ships take away from the incredible fun it is to actually fly a Klingon ship into battle. Things could always be better, that is certain. But unless you think that Cryptic is actually actively avoiding earning good money (and can make a reasonable case as to why), you probably have to accept that yes, the Federation will always get more content - but as long as there is still stuff for the KDF (or the Romulan Republic), it's not bad.
The Tier 6 cross-faction packs we've seen where awesome. That we don't get faction-specific content anymore.. I think that's a bit sad, but going by what other MMOs do, it seems it is inevitable.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
In short, the franchise is going to receive exposure like never before. Again, Cryptic/PWE will be looking to promote the game at the conventions/events. I would actually argue that they pretty much HAD to take this direction - with all the focus on the franchise's roots, how could they not do this?
Sometimes you just have to accept that it can't always be about keeping the existing playerbase happy - which is all but impossible at the best of times anyway.
I'm not sure I fully understand this argument. Are you saying that Fed ships are the only thing that would appeal to potential new players? I don't really understand how having some KDF and Romulan content also included in this would do less to attract new players then having all Federation Content.
I totally agree that this seems geared toward getting 'new blood' into the game, and I ultimately support that. Bringing in new players means bringing in new potential revenue and that keeps the game alive, I'm totally on board there. What I don't understand is how having content balanced across the 3 factions would have been less appealing.
What I am saying is that they're most likely trying to appeal to a wider audience. The anniversary emphasis will be on the Original series and I would imagine new players, some who will perhaps not be entirely familiar with Trek, will likely expect to see/play in STO what they've seen in the anniversary material - the adventures of the Starship Enterprise.
Fair enough, I get what you're saying.
Perhaps you're right, and if true.. I will say I hope it works. New blood can only be good for the game, so all in all I'm hoping it works out and they get a wave of new players out of it. I personally feel that a pack that costs $130 isn't really all that appealing to people you're trying to lure into your game, but that's me. For that price I would expect some cross faction content, but again, it's opinion on my part.
Thanks for the reply, at least your theory makes some sense. I personally don't care for the approach, but hope it works out for them.
In short, the franchise is going to receive exposure like never before. Again, Cryptic/PWE will be looking to promote the game at the conventions/events. I would actually argue that they pretty much HAD to take this direction - with all the focus on the franchise's roots, how could they not do this?
Sometimes you just have to accept that it can't always be about keeping the existing playerbase happy - which is all but impossible at the best of times anyway.
I'm not sure I fully understand this argument. Are you saying that Fed ships are the only thing that would appeal to potential new players? I don't really understand how having some KDF and Romulan content also included in this would do less to attract new players then having all Federation Content.
I totally agree that this seems geared toward getting 'new blood' into the game, and I ultimately support that. Bringing in new players means bringing in new potential revenue and that keeps the game alive, I'm totally on board there. What I don't understand is how having content balanced across the 3 factions would have been less appealing.
What I am saying is that they're most likely trying to appeal to a wider audience. The anniversary emphasis will be on the Original series and I would imagine new players, some who will perhaps not be entirely familiar with Trek, will likely expect to see/play in STO what they've seen in the anniversary material - the adventures of the Starship Enterprise.
Fair enough, I get what you're saying.
Perhaps you're right, and if true.. I will say I hope it works. New blood can only be good for the game, so all in all I'm hoping it works out and they get a wave of new players out of it. I personally feel that a pack that costs $130 isn't really all that appealing to people you're trying to lure into your game, but that's me. For that price I would expect some cross faction content, but again, it's opinion on my part.
Thanks for the reply, at least your theory makes some sense. I personally don't care for the approach, but hope it works out for them.
It's not really relevant whether the pack's content is cross-faction or not. You can only play one character at a time, and you can only fly one starship at a time. If that needs to be a Federation-aligned character, so be it. It certainly doesn't matter for a newbie.
And for the expansion story content - if it's seperate content for different faction, it also means one character gets you to see only 1/3rd of the content. (and it will be actually only 1/3rd of the content you could have had if it it was single faction only, since Cryptic can't magically make 3 times the content.)
For a newbie ,that could actually sound daunting - not just having to make 1, but multiple characters, if he wants all of that.
I think the biggest problem for existing players with any new faction expansion is that the story you make for that faction requires making new characters, meaing their "mains" are left out. But for new players, that is irrelevant, they don't have a character to begin with.
Faction expansions are definitely more attractive to new players. Delta Rising was something for existing players, because it added on top of their existing characters. New players didn't benefit from it directly. The Delta Recruitment system however helped them at least to catch up a bit.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
You put out a game that lets you play different factions, it's not going to be half-assed experience everywhere else but one group.
Except in Star Trek Online.
Because, as is pointed out with monotonous regularity, that mirrors the wider franchise. Star Wars has a villain faction that is ubiquitous and every bit as popular as the heroes - Star Trek does not. And unlike (say) Warcraft, STO does have a much bigger, wider franchise to consider. Even the Klingons were only in a small proportion of episodes. Any KDF player who expects full parity is simply being unrealistic.
It also seems to play to player preferences. I think the 5-year infographic had 12% of players with Romulan alts - despite the Roms being nakedly OP with unique abilities, the best space traits and arguably the most destructive single ship in the game.
Then why have factions at all? Games with factions usually have said factions in opposition. A hero faction and a villain faction, warring nations or something that actually has a meaning in the story and gameplay.
In STO, what little inter-factional conflict there was was forgotten years ago in favor of all cross-faction content. The Romulan Republic was never even a party to it in the first place. Plotwise your faction is just an origin story, after the first part the events are exactly the same for everyone. And based on the infographics and dev comments it appears the factions aren't even that popular or profitable. What purpose does having factions in the game serve beyond arbitrarily and inequally restricting what toons are allowed to have what things? Why not just lump everyone together, make the factions officially just origin stories and let every toon have all the stuff regardless of origin story?
We're all allied in the story already, so its high time to ditch the whole faction mechanic.
LOL, keep in mind folks, that there have been Star Trek games that had multi-faction play (Birth of the Federation, Starfleet Command, etc), yet to flesh out a more complete experience with the other factions, they put in extra effort into them and not made them to be half-assed placeholders.
How many of these games were MMOs where you make one playable character and play him the game? How in depth were these games really, for any faction?
A game like 25th Anniversary or Final Unity was basically Fed-view only. A game like Star Trek Armada had multipe factions, but they were very similar except ship special abilities, and its single player game mode had one big story line that you were kinda expected to play through, you didn't get a complete experience if you only played one faction.
I didn't play Birth of the Federation, but it seems it did have no story content at all, it's a 4X game basically and the AI Klingons will ask for peace if a war is being lost and the AI Federation will demand tribute to not start a war, so the "authenticity" of the factions is not exactly respected either. If you consider STO's attempt at depicting the Klingon as "half-assed", where leaves that Birth of the Federation?
It doesn't matter if they were MMORPGs or not, because they enabled multi-faction play and did not skimp on what that meant.
It matters quite a lot what type of game it is, how it's distributed, how it is expected to be played. These differences matter quite a lot.None of the games you mentioned were free to play. They didn't finance themselves by people buying ships, for example. You are comparing apples to oranges.
And still you willfully ignore that these games had severe shortcomings actually in their "factional" support, because they simply didn't have the depth STO has to offer, not in story telling, not in gameplay, not in graphical detail.
You're putting these games on a pedestal that they don't deserve, and you most likely never played them as long and as intensively as you did play Star Trek Online.
Star Trek Online already has more Klingon ship classes than any of the games you mentioned, and that is even if you ignore al the customization options you have.
Going by the Wiki, this game comes with 17 Raiders, 18 Raptors, 34 Battlecruisers, 10 Carriers & Flight Deck Cruisers, 16 Destroyers and 9 Support & Science Vessels belonging to the Klingon Empire Faction.
I think even among games with heavy mod support you will find it difficult to find that many distinct ships.
Yes, the Federation might have two or three times that amount. But so what? The game is still ahead of most other Star Trek games by a magnitude.
You're comparing too much to games that were a lot less involved than Star Trek Online, and focus too much on faction envy to actually appreciate the amount of KDF content this game has to offer. Don't let that the Federation gets more ships take away from the incredible fun it is to actually fly a Klingon ship into battle. Things could always be better, that is certain. But unless you think that Cryptic is actually actively avoiding earning good money (and can make a reasonable case as to why), you probably have to accept that yes, the Federation will always get more content - but as long as there is still stuff for the KDF (or the Romulan Republic), it's not bad.
The Tier 6 cross-faction packs we've seen where awesome. That we don't get faction-specific content anymore.. I think that's a bit sad, but going by what other MMOs do, it seems it is inevitable.
You put out a multifaction game.
You need to support that multifaction game.
And are you serious on the ships in STO? There are huge gaps in the KDF & Rom lineup. Because the list of playable ships and ship releases have always been lopsided.
There has not been a KDF & Rom SCI Vessel since the DSD of early 2014. Before the DSD, the Veranus was the KDF SCI Vessel. From December 2012. There still is no KDF & Rom SCI Vessel at T6. How many do the Feds have at T6? The KDF was the original faction in STO with a Carrier. Where is that KDF, Romulan Carrier at T6? Etc, etc, etc.
Again, you put out a multifaction game.
You need to support that multifaction game.
Because what's going on in this circus is lopsided comedy.
The logic that other factions don't sell doesn't hold water when you don't make anything for them to begin with. It's the same old circular logic.. we don't make KDF/Romulan stuff because it doesn't sell.. and players don't play those factions because they don't make anything for them.
This to me is one of Cryptic's major faults. Play it safe, go with what you know sells and call it a day.
And it's not just factions, look at PvP and exploration just as few other examples. True that they are trying to bring exploration back, but it shows that when they release something, then it gradually lowers in popularity, provide no investment to match new and other content being released, then proceed to, in this case, just remove it.
KDF and Romulans don't sell well, so forget them, stick with Feds...they sell well.
I understand Cryptic is a very small studio and in all fairness they probably need to stick with 'keeping it safe' and go with what they know works and sells well. I doubt they can afford to have this expansion fail.
Retired. I'm now in search for that perfect space anomaly.
I'm seeing all this new info about all this Temporal related things, here, here with the 2 different Temporal Agent Packs.
Everything in there is Fed-centric. So nothing for KDF & Romulan Republic players? No Klingon, Romulan ships, uniforms... nothing? That is worse than the already lopsided Delta Pack. At least the Delta Pack threw in token KDF & RRW ships. This pack? Jack & S--t.
Why would there be a KDF/Romulan temporal stuff? This is FED centric storyline and perhaps in the future the KDF and Romulan got reduced to state of de-evolution of a targ or even just a bacteria
They do. Just not at equal levels. Which causes the friction. It sucks. It's worked for 6 years though so I think you've got a very big uphill climb to be a catalyst for change. I wish you the best. I do. I myself was once aligned with the crusade. But I don't have the energy for it these days. I play my Romulan a lot. Mothballed my Nausicaan. I just can't let faction strife be the measuring stick for my enjoyment of the game.
They do. Just not at equal levels. Which causes the friction. It sucks. It's worked for 6 years though so I think you've got a very big uphill climb to be a catalyst for change. I wish you the best. I do. I myself was once aligned with the crusade. But I don't have the energy for it these days. I play my Romulan a lot. Mothballed my Nausicaan. I just can't let faction strife be the measuring stick for my enjoyment of the game.
But I understand your points.
Pretty much this. And I think it's better to say that the whole franchise, on a deeper level, is actually HUMAN-biased. And why not? WE'RE human, you know, just playing Romulan and Klingon characters. Humans are easier to relate to and write for when you happen to BE one. This bias did get brought up in Star Trek VI. And yes, there's a definite Federation slant in this game, but..........................SO WHAT?
I play two Romulans to my one Federation character, and I love em all. I fly a pretty good ship (T6 Tactical Command Warbird, and all the bells and whistles that come with it) on my primary and I'm pretty satisfied with it. It certainly keeps up with the pack, and it's very much set up the way I want it. It's not like there's a dearth of goodies for KDF and Romulan characters, LOOK at the ships available. There's quite a few awesome warbirds (ALWAYS been the icon of a Romulan) and battlecruisers to choose from, some with different slants than others. So come on! YES, the KDF and Romulans aren't equal to the Federation in terms of in-game content, but they are FAR from irrelevant.
LOL, keep in mind folks, that there have been Star Trek games that had multi-faction play (Birth of the Federation, Starfleet Command, etc), yet to flesh out a more complete experience with the other factions, they put in extra effort into them and not made them to be half-assed placeholders.
How many of these games were MMOs where you make one playable character and play him the game? How in depth were these games really, for any faction?
A game like 25th Anniversary or Final Unity was basically Fed-view only. A game like Star Trek Armada had multipe factions, but they were very similar except ship special abilities, and its single player game mode had one big story line that you were kinda expected to play through, you didn't get a complete experience if you only played one faction.
I didn't play Birth of the Federation, but it seems it did have no story content at all, it's a 4X game basically and the AI Klingons will ask for peace if a war is being lost and the AI Federation will demand tribute to not start a war, so the "authenticity" of the factions is not exactly respected either. If you consider STO's attempt at depicting the Klingon as "half-assed", where leaves that Birth of the Federation?
It doesn't matter if they were MMORPGs or not, because they enabled multi-faction play and did not skimp on what that meant.
It matters quite a lot what type of game it is, how it's distributed, how it is expected to be played. These differences matter quite a lot.None of the games you mentioned were free to play. They didn't finance themselves by people buying ships, for example. You are comparing apples to oranges.
And still you willfully ignore that these games had severe shortcomings actually in their "factional" support, because they simply didn't have the depth STO has to offer, not in story telling, not in gameplay, not in graphical detail.
You're putting these games on a pedestal that they don't deserve, and you most likely never played them as long and as intensively as you did play Star Trek Online.
Star Trek Online already has more Klingon ship classes than any of the games you mentioned, and that is even if you ignore al the customization options you have.
Going by the Wiki, this game comes with 17 Raiders, 18 Raptors, 34 Battlecruisers, 10 Carriers & Flight Deck Cruisers, 16 Destroyers and 9 Support & Science Vessels belonging to the Klingon Empire Faction.
I think even among games with heavy mod support you will find it difficult to find that many distinct ships.
Yes, the Federation might have two or three times that amount. But so what? The game is still ahead of most other Star Trek games by a magnitude.
You're comparing too much to games that were a lot less involved than Star Trek Online, and focus too much on faction envy to actually appreciate the amount of KDF content this game has to offer. Don't let that the Federation gets more ships take away from the incredible fun it is to actually fly a Klingon ship into battle. Things could always be better, that is certain. But unless you think that Cryptic is actually actively avoiding earning good money (and can make a reasonable case as to why), you probably have to accept that yes, the Federation will always get more content - but as long as there is still stuff for the KDF (or the Romulan Republic), it's not bad.
The Tier 6 cross-faction packs we've seen where awesome. That we don't get faction-specific content anymore.. I think that's a bit sad, but going by what other MMOs do, it seems it is inevitable.
You put out a multifaction game.
You need to support that multifaction game.
Why? Why do yu need to do this, if your numbers show you that it's not a good investment?
This isn't a question of morals or ethics. It's just a business decision. This isn't like someone having a child and then deciding to abandon it. It's just a frigging game.
What advantage do you get out of this if Cryptic started to put out KDF or Romulan content like crazy, but it doesn't make them the money, and they have to scale down?
Your problem is two-fold:
1) You think there is an ethical requirement to support particular factions just because they are there. It's not.
2) You think think that Cryptic can somehow live from goodwill and doesn't need to consider business concerns.
And are you serious on the ships in STO? There are huge gaps in the KDF & Rom lineup. Because the list of playable ships and ship releases have always been lopsided.
So what? The lopsidedness is already part of the canon of this game. It is probably so inherent in it that anything that any game company could possibly do when making a game, it will still be reflected in the community interests.
The canon contains
Federation side: NX-01, Constitution, Excelsior, Consitution Refit, Oberth, Galaxy (including alternate future retrofit), Ambassador, Defiant, Miranda, Akira, Intrepid and Nova (plus a bunch of kitbashes, a bunch of shuttles and a few space stations)
Klingon Side: Raptor, Bird of Prey, K'Tinga, D7, Vor'Cha, Neg'Var (plus one shuttle perhaps?)
Romulan Side: Bird of Prey, Warbird, D7, Science Vessel and/or Shuttle.
That's where pretty much every Star Trek game so far could start off with. Ship lopsidedness is already pre-installed by the setting.
TOS canon consists of what - 2 Romulan episodes and 3-4 Klingon episodes? Out of 3 seasons that always involves at least the Human Captain, his Vulcan Science Officer, and his Human Medical Officer.
That is the basis of where you recruit Star Trek fans. Sure you get Klingon enthusiasts and Romulan enthusiasts and all that as part of that deal. But you can bet most of them didn't turn the show on to see a Klingon or Romulan doing KLingon or Romulan things on Klingon or Romulan starships. (If that's what they expected, TNG and VOY would have been a lot less successful.)
Again, you put out a multifaction game.
You need to support that multifaction game.
Because what's going on in this circus is lopsided comedy.
And I repeat, no, you don't. You need to ensure that your game works profitable and you can retain or gain players. If the majority of the demand is for Fed content, then that's what you support. You don't try to chase some crazy ideal and sacrifice your business goals on the alter of faction balance. You are practical about it.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
LOL, keep in mind folks, that there have been Star Trek games that had multi-faction play (Birth of the Federation, Starfleet Command, etc), yet to flesh out a more complete experience with the other factions, they put in extra effort into them and not made them to be half-assed placeholders.
How many of these games were MMOs where you make one playable character and play him the game? How in depth were these games really, for any faction?
A game like 25th Anniversary or Final Unity was basically Fed-view only. A game like Star Trek Armada had multipe factions, but they were very similar except ship special abilities, and its single player game mode had one big story line that you were kinda expected to play through, you didn't get a complete experience if you only played one faction.
I didn't play Birth of the Federation, but it seems it did have no story content at all, it's a 4X game basically and the AI Klingons will ask for peace if a war is being lost and the AI Federation will demand tribute to not start a war, so the "authenticity" of the factions is not exactly respected either. If you consider STO's attempt at depicting the Klingon as "half-assed", where leaves that Birth of the Federation?
It doesn't matter if they were MMORPGs or not, because they enabled multi-faction play and did not skimp on what that meant.
It matters quite a lot what type of game it is, how it's distributed, how it is expected to be played. These differences matter quite a lot.None of the games you mentioned were free to play. They didn't finance themselves by people buying ships, for example. You are comparing apples to oranges.
And still you willfully ignore that these games had severe shortcomings actually in their "factional" support, because they simply didn't have the depth STO has to offer, not in story telling, not in gameplay, not in graphical detail.
You're putting these games on a pedestal that they don't deserve, and you most likely never played them as long and as intensively as you did play Star Trek Online.
Star Trek Online already has more Klingon ship classes than any of the games you mentioned, and that is even if you ignore al the customization options you have.
Going by the Wiki, this game comes with 17 Raiders, 18 Raptors, 34 Battlecruisers, 10 Carriers & Flight Deck Cruisers, 16 Destroyers and 9 Support & Science Vessels belonging to the Klingon Empire Faction.
I think even among games with heavy mod support you will find it difficult to find that many distinct ships.
Yes, the Federation might have two or three times that amount. But so what? The game is still ahead of most other Star Trek games by a magnitude.
You're comparing too much to games that were a lot less involved than Star Trek Online, and focus too much on faction envy to actually appreciate the amount of KDF content this game has to offer. Don't let that the Federation gets more ships take away from the incredible fun it is to actually fly a Klingon ship into battle. Things could always be better, that is certain. But unless you think that Cryptic is actually actively avoiding earning good money (and can make a reasonable case as to why), you probably have to accept that yes, the Federation will always get more content - but as long as there is still stuff for the KDF (or the Romulan Republic), it's not bad.
The Tier 6 cross-faction packs we've seen where awesome. That we don't get faction-specific content anymore.. I think that's a bit sad, but going by what other MMOs do, it seems it is inevitable.
You put out a multifaction game.
You need to support that multifaction game.
Why? Why do yu need to do this, if your numbers show you that it's not a good investment?
This isn't a question of morals or ethics. It's just a business decision. This isn't like someone having a child and then deciding to abandon it. It's just a frigging game.
Well, you don't have to do it. But if you're not going to, why keep the game multifaction?
The storyline has us all completely working together in everything anyway. There hasn't been new faction-specific story content in years. Just get rid of the factions if they're not profitable and merge us all into one.
It wouldn't stop all the complaining (this is the internet, nothing will stop the complaining), but at least there would be less "X got a new toy, I want it too" going around.
I can understand not wanting to make 11 Romulan & Klingon ships, if the sales figures say they're not profitable. I don't understand not selling the 11 Fed ships they already made to everyone willing to part with the $$$.
LOL, keep in mind folks, that there have been Star Trek games that had multi-faction play (Birth of the Federation, Starfleet Command, etc), yet to flesh out a more complete experience with the other factions, they put in extra effort into them and not made them to be half-assed placeholders.
How many of these games were MMOs where you make one playable character and play him the game? How in depth were these games really, for any faction?
A game like 25th Anniversary or Final Unity was basically Fed-view only. A game like Star Trek Armada had multipe factions, but they were very similar except ship special abilities, and its single player game mode had one big story line that you were kinda expected to play through, you didn't get a complete experience if you only played one faction.
I didn't play Birth of the Federation, but it seems it did have no story content at all, it's a 4X game basically and the AI Klingons will ask for peace if a war is being lost and the AI Federation will demand tribute to not start a war, so the "authenticity" of the factions is not exactly respected either. If you consider STO's attempt at depicting the Klingon as "half-assed", where leaves that Birth of the Federation?
It doesn't matter if they were MMORPGs or not, because they enabled multi-faction play and did not skimp on what that meant.
It matters quite a lot what type of game it is, how it's distributed, how it is expected to be played. These differences matter quite a lot.None of the games you mentioned were free to play. They didn't finance themselves by people buying ships, for example. You are comparing apples to oranges.
And still you willfully ignore that these games had severe shortcomings actually in their "factional" support, because they simply didn't have the depth STO has to offer, not in story telling, not in gameplay, not in graphical detail.
You're putting these games on a pedestal that they don't deserve, and you most likely never played them as long and as intensively as you did play Star Trek Online.
Star Trek Online already has more Klingon ship classes than any of the games you mentioned, and that is even if you ignore al the customization options you have.
Going by the Wiki, this game comes with 17 Raiders, 18 Raptors, 34 Battlecruisers, 10 Carriers & Flight Deck Cruisers, 16 Destroyers and 9 Support & Science Vessels belonging to the Klingon Empire Faction.
I think even among games with heavy mod support you will find it difficult to find that many distinct ships.
Yes, the Federation might have two or three times that amount. But so what? The game is still ahead of most other Star Trek games by a magnitude.
You're comparing too much to games that were a lot less involved than Star Trek Online, and focus too much on faction envy to actually appreciate the amount of KDF content this game has to offer. Don't let that the Federation gets more ships take away from the incredible fun it is to actually fly a Klingon ship into battle. Things could always be better, that is certain. But unless you think that Cryptic is actually actively avoiding earning good money (and can make a reasonable case as to why), you probably have to accept that yes, the Federation will always get more content - but as long as there is still stuff for the KDF (or the Romulan Republic), it's not bad.
The Tier 6 cross-faction packs we've seen where awesome. That we don't get faction-specific content anymore.. I think that's a bit sad, but going by what other MMOs do, it seems it is inevitable.
You put out a multifaction game.
You need to support that multifaction game.
Why? Why do yu need to do this, if your numbers show you that it's not a good investment?
This isn't a question of morals or ethics. It's just a business decision. This isn't like someone having a child and then deciding to abandon it. It's just a frigging game.
Well, you don't have to do it. But if you're not going to, why keep the game multifaction?
The storyline has us all completely working together in everything anyway. There hasn't been new faction-specific story content in years. Just get rid of the factions if they're not profitable and merge us all into one.
It wouldn't stop all the complaining (this is the internet, nothing will stop the complaining), but at least there would be less "X got a new toy, I want it too" going around.
I can understand not wanting to make 11 Romulan & Klingon ships, if the sales figures say they're not profitable. I don't understand not selling the 11 Fed ships they already made to everyone willing to part with the $$$.
Because removing the faction system also is not something done with the snip of a finger. It will require making changes. ARe they worth doing? Maybe, maybe not. Just because something was not done yet doesn't mean it won't be done eventually.
But regarding the TOS expansion - I think that's one of the typical fundamentalist forum things. People believe there are countless of KDF or ROM only players out there, e.g. people that don't have Fed characters, or never play or buy anything for them. I think that's already wrong.
And even accounting for the ones that exist, even if they were large - the characters-by-faction numbers Cryptic puts out tells us that they are still a minority.
And even if they suddenly gave Klingons and Romulan access to the full suite of Federation ships, what is there to be gained for the KDF/ROM only players? They still don't get actual ships that fit their faction. They still don't get story content for that faction.
So even if Cryptic removed any faction restrictions, it does help the cause of the people that scream the loudest exactly nothing. The people that benefit the most are actually the people that already get all the advantages, because they finally don't need to bother with "stupid" KDF or ROM characters and fleets and what not and just take the KDF/ROM ships they like and play them on their Fed toon.
How much will it actually help to allow Cryptic to make more KDF or Romulan ships? Probably not all that much. The players that are really eager to play such ships probably already have their Rom or KDF alts.
So overall, it's not a change that can be made for free by the flick of a switch, and it's most likely not actually going to benefit the people that are worried the most. It could still be something worth doing at some point, but maybe not worth doing at all cost over the expense of all the other countless things that STO could benefit from.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
This thread has made me ponder something... Why do KDF/Rom players so often hate things written for them? I don't personally experience that problem, but I often hear it discussed on the forum. One thing that occurred to me is that it's an application of the old rose-tinted glasses thing. People see what they want to when they remember things from the TV show.
They made the Romulans Overpowered as hell and it only attracted 13% of the player base... i don't think the logic is entirely circular because if people had an actual interest in other factions they would play them or atleast more people would. The extremely skewed ratios do not exist simply because the KDF and ROM'S have less stuff they would almost certainly exist either way, to what degree is more the matter to debate.
They threw an entire expansion at the Romulans and gave them a nice selection of ships and stuff to start them out, the fact that development did not continue as heavily afterwards is very simple. Not enough people played them.
So I don't really agree with the argument that nobody plays them because they don't have as many ships, it doesn't really hold water. It may affect player numbers some but not to THIS degree. Just how much incentive would they need to vastly increase KDF and ROM player numbers? With the exception of science ships everything they get is atleast slightly better then FED equivalents generally much more so. Fact is, people like the Federation best for any numbers reasons and that's just the way it is.
I agree with you. I am a casual player, I have a lifetime subscription, but my Fed Captain just hit 58 last night. I mean, I have a level 6 or whatever Romulan, but it's not lack of ships, I just grew up thinking of them and Klingons as villains or something. I even really like the looks of the Romulan ships, but when it comes to buying them...well, I got the Romulan whatever collector pack, because that's my own mental disability, so if there's a tier 6 in there, that's what I will be flying if I ever get around to or feel like playing that character, very unlikely given the new Captain I will be making as a Temporal Agent or whatever, which I won't even do if I can just take my carefully crafted Captain in there instead.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Because there are fanbases for Klingons and Romulans who would like to play as those groups.
To everyone that feels the factions are not balanced ... and feels that a lot can be done to make them more balanced ...
You are right. You are absolutely right.
Unfortunately, it's not me you need to convince. And for that I'm sorry.
But I am looking forward to playing this new expansion because TOS era stuff is something I really dig. I do truly wish you well on the push to get more Klingon stuff and more Romulan stuff. Because more of that stuff would be fun for me too.
Unless I can play as a First Federation character I will shun this Expansion. How dare they have something Federation based and not have the FIRST of all the Federations.
Those Klingon and Romulan Missions are not good because they are not written in the tlhIngan Hol or Rihanh doaege.
Hurump Hurump.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Unless I can play as a First Federation character I will shun this Expansion. How dare they have something Federation based and not have the FIRST of all the Federations.
Those Klingon and Romulan Missions are not good because they are not written in the tlhIngan Hol or Rihanh doaege.
Hurump Hurump.
Hell yeah! Second best post in this entire thread! (After my own of course)
Besides, I think Cryptic would be the ultimate uber fail if they did make it only for FED's. Have the feeling the Romulan and KDF player base is larger then they say. I never believe half the player information they release. It changes on a random base.
gecko flat out stated in the p1 podcast that its only TOS starfleet in the new expansion faction..
This thread has made me ponder something... Why do KDF/Rom players so often hate things written for them? I don't personally experience that problem, but I often hear it discussed on the forum. One thing that occurred to me is that it's an application of the old rose-tinted glasses thing. People see what they want to when they remember things from the TV show.
Because it isn't written for them. It's written for the Federation and then has random "Qapla'"s added to it. And they don't even do that much for Roms.
Remember the mission "Operation Cooperation Conspiracy" where Republic Intelligence wants to run a false flag operation on the Hazari and Benthans to convince them to work together better? You'd probably expect the following general responses:
Traditional Fed Character: "We shouldn't be doing this kind of thing to our allies because we're the good guys."
Traditional Klingon Character: "This trickery is dishonorable."
Traditional Romulan Character: "Brilliant! An ingenious plan!" (Since they're the culture with the reputation for sneaky black ops.)
Possibly some neutral-ish responses for nontraditional characters, like KDF aliens or Unificationist Roms and Remans.
But all we really got was the Fed response, across all characters.
And the irritating thing to me is that in previous and succeeding missions they have bothered with that kind of thing, even species by species: Bajorans get a unique dialog option when dealing with Rugan Skyl in "Surface Tension" (you get to tell him to "sit down and shut up, ya racist SOB", which made me lol), and telepathic species can try to mind-read Sela in "Uneasy Allies" but have her no-sell it. And the Klingon-specific leveling missions are extremely well-done; the problem there is there isn't enough support for KDF aliens (why is a Gorn blathering in Klingon?).
Note that I also hold Foundry writers to this. If I play a KDF mission and there aren't non-Klingonesque responses, that's an automatic minus-1 point in my review.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Comments
Because, as is pointed out with monotonous regularity, that mirrors the wider franchise. Star Wars has a villain faction that is ubiquitous and every bit as popular as the heroes - Star Trek does not. And unlike (say) Warcraft, STO does have a much bigger, wider franchise to consider. Even the Klingons were only in a small proportion of episodes. Any KDF player who expects full parity is simply being unrealistic.
It also seems to play to player preferences. I think the 5-year infographic had 12% of players with Romulan alts - despite the Roms being nakedly OP with unique abilities, the best space traits and arguably the most destructive single ship in the game.
The Neutral races in Everquest were always less prominent than the Good and Evil ones. And the agnostic choice in terms of deity was actively inferior to making the choice once cultural crafted items were introduced.
And still you willfully ignore that these games had severe shortcomings actually in their "factional" support, because they simply didn't have the depth STO has to offer, not in story telling, not in gameplay, not in graphical detail.
You're putting these games on a pedestal that they don't deserve, and you most likely never played them as long and as intensively as you did play Star Trek Online.
Star Trek Online already has more Klingon ship classes than any of the games you mentioned, and that is even if you ignore al the customization options you have.
Going by the Wiki, this game comes with 17 Raiders, 18 Raptors, 34 Battlecruisers, 10 Carriers & Flight Deck Cruisers, 16 Destroyers and 9 Support & Science Vessels belonging to the Klingon Empire Faction.
I think even among games with heavy mod support you will find it difficult to find that many distinct ships.
Yes, the Federation might have two or three times that amount. But so what? The game is still ahead of most other Star Trek games by a magnitude.
You're comparing too much to games that were a lot less involved than Star Trek Online, and focus too much on faction envy to actually appreciate the amount of KDF content this game has to offer. Don't let that the Federation gets more ships take away from the incredible fun it is to actually fly a Klingon ship into battle. Things could always be better, that is certain. But unless you think that Cryptic is actually actively avoiding earning good money (and can make a reasonable case as to why), you probably have to accept that yes, the Federation will always get more content - but as long as there is still stuff for the KDF (or the Romulan Republic), it's not bad.
The Tier 6 cross-faction packs we've seen where awesome. That we don't get faction-specific content anymore.. I think that's a bit sad, but going by what other MMOs do, it seems it is inevitable.
Fair enough, I get what you're saying.
Perhaps you're right, and if true.. I will say I hope it works. New blood can only be good for the game, so all in all I'm hoping it works out and they get a wave of new players out of it. I personally feel that a pack that costs $130 isn't really all that appealing to people you're trying to lure into your game, but that's me. For that price I would expect some cross faction content, but again, it's opinion on my part.
Thanks for the reply, at least your theory makes some sense. I personally don't care for the approach, but hope it works out for them.
And for the expansion story content - if it's seperate content for different faction, it also means one character gets you to see only 1/3rd of the content. (and it will be actually only 1/3rd of the content you could have had if it it was single faction only, since Cryptic can't magically make 3 times the content.)
For a newbie ,that could actually sound daunting - not just having to make 1, but multiple characters, if he wants all of that.
I think the biggest problem for existing players with any new faction expansion is that the story you make for that faction requires making new characters, meaing their "mains" are left out. But for new players, that is irrelevant, they don't have a character to begin with.
Faction expansions are definitely more attractive to new players. Delta Rising was something for existing players, because it added on top of their existing characters. New players didn't benefit from it directly. The Delta Recruitment system however helped them at least to catch up a bit.
In STO, what little inter-factional conflict there was was forgotten years ago in favor of all cross-faction content. The Romulan Republic was never even a party to it in the first place. Plotwise your faction is just an origin story, after the first part the events are exactly the same for everyone. And based on the infographics and dev comments it appears the factions aren't even that popular or profitable. What purpose does having factions in the game serve beyond arbitrarily and inequally restricting what toons are allowed to have what things? Why not just lump everyone together, make the factions officially just origin stories and let every toon have all the stuff regardless of origin story?
We're all allied in the story already, so its high time to ditch the whole faction mechanic.
You put out a multifaction game.
You need to support that multifaction game.
And are you serious on the ships in STO? There are huge gaps in the KDF & Rom lineup. Because the list of playable ships and ship releases have always been lopsided.
There has not been a KDF & Rom SCI Vessel since the DSD of early 2014. Before the DSD, the Veranus was the KDF SCI Vessel. From December 2012. There still is no KDF & Rom SCI Vessel at T6. How many do the Feds have at T6? The KDF was the original faction in STO with a Carrier. Where is that KDF, Romulan Carrier at T6? Etc, etc, etc.
Again, you put out a multifaction game.
You need to support that multifaction game.
Because what's going on in this circus is lopsided comedy.
This to me is one of Cryptic's major faults. Play it safe, go with what you know sells and call it a day.
And it's not just factions, look at PvP and exploration just as few other examples. True that they are trying to bring exploration back, but it shows that when they release something, then it gradually lowers in popularity, provide no investment to match new and other content being released, then proceed to, in this case, just remove it.
KDF and Romulans don't sell well, so forget them, stick with Feds...they sell well.
I understand Cryptic is a very small studio and in all fairness they probably need to stick with 'keeping it safe' and go with what they know works and sells well. I doubt they can afford to have this expansion fail.
Why would there be a KDF/Romulan temporal stuff? This is FED centric storyline and perhaps in the future the KDF and Romulan got reduced to state of de-evolution of a targ or even just a bacteria
The Sisko informs me that Deep Space 9 was The Prophets based. The Federation just happened to be there to bear witness!
And 50% of Voyager was Maquis based.
They do. Just not at equal levels. Which causes the friction. It sucks. It's worked for 6 years though so I think you've got a very big uphill climb to be a catalyst for change. I wish you the best. I do. I myself was once aligned with the crusade. But I don't have the energy for it these days. I play my Romulan a lot. Mothballed my Nausicaan. I just can't let faction strife be the measuring stick for my enjoyment of the game.
But I understand your points.
Pretty much this. And I think it's better to say that the whole franchise, on a deeper level, is actually HUMAN-biased. And why not? WE'RE human, you know, just playing Romulan and Klingon characters. Humans are easier to relate to and write for when you happen to BE one.
I play two Romulans to my one Federation character, and I love em all. I fly a pretty good ship (T6 Tactical Command Warbird, and all the bells and whistles that come with it) on my primary and I'm pretty satisfied with it. It certainly keeps up with the pack, and it's very much set up the way I want it. It's not like there's a dearth of goodies for KDF and Romulan characters, LOOK at the ships available. There's quite a few awesome warbirds (ALWAYS been the icon of a Romulan) and battlecruisers to choose from, some with different slants than others. So come on! YES, the KDF and Romulans aren't equal to the Federation in terms of in-game content, but they are FAR from irrelevant.
People are so melodramatic, exaggerating the TRIBBLE out of everything.
Why? Why do yu need to do this, if your numbers show you that it's not a good investment?
This isn't a question of morals or ethics. It's just a business decision. This isn't like someone having a child and then deciding to abandon it. It's just a frigging game.
What advantage do you get out of this if Cryptic started to put out KDF or Romulan content like crazy, but it doesn't make them the money, and they have to scale down?
Your problem is two-fold:
1) You think there is an ethical requirement to support particular factions just because they are there. It's not.
2) You think think that Cryptic can somehow live from goodwill and doesn't need to consider business concerns.
So what? The lopsidedness is already part of the canon of this game. It is probably so inherent in it that anything that any game company could possibly do when making a game, it will still be reflected in the community interests.
The canon contains
Federation side: NX-01, Constitution, Excelsior, Consitution Refit, Oberth, Galaxy (including alternate future retrofit), Ambassador, Defiant, Miranda, Akira, Intrepid and Nova (plus a bunch of kitbashes, a bunch of shuttles and a few space stations)
Klingon Side: Raptor, Bird of Prey, K'Tinga, D7, Vor'Cha, Neg'Var (plus one shuttle perhaps?)
Romulan Side: Bird of Prey, Warbird, D7, Science Vessel and/or Shuttle.
That's where pretty much every Star Trek game so far could start off with. Ship lopsidedness is already pre-installed by the setting.
TOS canon consists of what - 2 Romulan episodes and 3-4 Klingon episodes? Out of 3 seasons that always involves at least the Human Captain, his Vulcan Science Officer, and his Human Medical Officer.
That is the basis of where you recruit Star Trek fans. Sure you get Klingon enthusiasts and Romulan enthusiasts and all that as part of that deal. But you can bet most of them didn't turn the show on to see a Klingon or Romulan doing KLingon or Romulan things on Klingon or Romulan starships. (If that's what they expected, TNG and VOY would have been a lot less successful.)
And I repeat, no, you don't. You need to ensure that your game works profitable and you can retain or gain players. If the majority of the demand is for Fed content, then that's what you support. You don't try to chase some crazy ideal and sacrifice your business goals on the alter of faction balance. You are practical about it.
The storyline has us all completely working together in everything anyway. There hasn't been new faction-specific story content in years. Just get rid of the factions if they're not profitable and merge us all into one.
It wouldn't stop all the complaining (this is the internet, nothing will stop the complaining), but at least there would be less "X got a new toy, I want it too" going around.
I can understand not wanting to make 11 Romulan & Klingon ships, if the sales figures say they're not profitable. I don't understand not selling the 11 Fed ships they already made to everyone willing to part with the $$$.
But regarding the TOS expansion - I think that's one of the typical fundamentalist forum things. People believe there are countless of KDF or ROM only players out there, e.g. people that don't have Fed characters, or never play or buy anything for them. I think that's already wrong.
And even accounting for the ones that exist, even if they were large - the characters-by-faction numbers Cryptic puts out tells us that they are still a minority.
And even if they suddenly gave Klingons and Romulan access to the full suite of Federation ships, what is there to be gained for the KDF/ROM only players? They still don't get actual ships that fit their faction. They still don't get story content for that faction.
So even if Cryptic removed any faction restrictions, it does help the cause of the people that scream the loudest exactly nothing. The people that benefit the most are actually the people that already get all the advantages, because they finally don't need to bother with "stupid" KDF or ROM characters and fleets and what not and just take the KDF/ROM ships they like and play them on their Fed toon.
How much will it actually help to allow Cryptic to make more KDF or Romulan ships? Probably not all that much. The players that are really eager to play such ships probably already have their Rom or KDF alts.
So overall, it's not a change that can be made for free by the flick of a switch, and it's most likely not actually going to benefit the people that are worried the most. It could still be something worth doing at some point, but maybe not worth doing at all cost over the expense of all the other countless things that STO could benefit from.
My character Tsin'xing
I agree with you. I am a casual player, I have a lifetime subscription, but my Fed Captain just hit 58 last night. I mean, I have a level 6 or whatever Romulan, but it's not lack of ships, I just grew up thinking of them and Klingons as villains or something. I even really like the looks of the Romulan ships, but when it comes to buying them...well, I got the Romulan whatever collector pack, because that's my own mental disability, so if there's a tier 6 in there, that's what I will be flying if I ever get around to or feel like playing that character, very unlikely given the new Captain I will be making as a Temporal Agent or whatever, which I won't even do if I can just take my carefully crafted Captain in there instead.
actually, you can now...sort of
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
To everyone that feels the factions are not balanced ... and feels that a lot can be done to make them more balanced ...
You are right. You are absolutely right.
Unfortunately, it's not me you need to convince. And for that I'm sorry.
But I am looking forward to playing this new expansion because TOS era stuff is something I really dig. I do truly wish you well on the push to get more Klingon stuff and more Romulan stuff. Because more of that stuff would be fun for me too.
Those Klingon and Romulan Missions are not good because they are not written in the tlhIngan Hol or Rihanh doaege.
Hurump Hurump.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Hell yeah! Second best post in this entire thread! (After my own of course)
gecko flat out stated in the p1 podcast that its only TOS starfleet in the new expansion faction..
Because it isn't written for them. It's written for the Federation and then has random "Qapla'"s added to it. And they don't even do that much for Roms.
Remember the mission "Operation Cooperation Conspiracy" where Republic Intelligence wants to run a false flag operation on the Hazari and Benthans to convince them to work together better? You'd probably expect the following general responses:
- Traditional Fed Character: "We shouldn't be doing this kind of thing to our allies because we're the good guys."
- Traditional Klingon Character: "This trickery is dishonorable."
- Traditional Romulan Character: "Brilliant! An ingenious plan!" (Since they're the culture with the reputation for sneaky black ops.)
- Possibly some neutral-ish responses for nontraditional characters, like KDF aliens or Unificationist Roms and Remans.
But all we really got was the Fed response, across all characters.And the irritating thing to me is that in previous and succeeding missions they have bothered with that kind of thing, even species by species: Bajorans get a unique dialog option when dealing with Rugan Skyl in "Surface Tension" (you get to tell him to "sit down and shut up, ya racist SOB", which made me lol), and telepathic species can try to mind-read Sela in "Uneasy Allies" but have her no-sell it. And the Klingon-specific leveling missions are extremely well-done; the problem there is there isn't enough support for KDF aliens (why is a Gorn blathering in Klingon?).
Note that I also hold Foundry writers to this. If I play a KDF mission and there aren't non-Klingonesque responses, that's an automatic minus-1 point in my review.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'