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Should the available range of DPS across player characters be narrowed for better game balance?

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    sonsofcainsonsofcain Member Posts: 63 Arc User
    edited May 2016
    No, this is not important enough to require developer attention
    So let's say we gave NPCs the ability to Sci spam, or whatever enhancements are deemed necessary. Who is this really hurting? Not the high DPS crowd. Replace BIC with SRF. Instead of slotting 5 offensive active traits, slot two as AHH, Aux-Defense, or Energy Refreq. They can drop IPttM for Invicible. Or Sub-Warp Sheath for Desperate Repairs. To take it to the extreme, they could do all of this and then some and still sit atop to DPS mountain. But what about the lower tier players. They're probably already running mostly defensive traits. They've probably got a couple Neutroniums and a field Gen or two. What are they going to drop to survive. Or perhaps the better question is what can they afford to drop in order to actually be able to take down these improved NPCs?
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    sonsofcainsonsofcain Member Posts: 63 Arc User
    No, this is not important enough to require developer attention
    A more likely scenario is that more players would make allowances for slotting some sort of CC abilities like GW. The only way the 10% rule would make a comeback is if the the transformers got another boost to their HP, which seems to be idea that most would not advocate for.
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    whamhammer1whamhammer1 Member Posts: 2,290 Arc User
    @sophlogimo

    Whats the title of his poll/thread? You are complaing about the variance between high and low dps, not the NPC's not adapting (even if the NPC's adapted, there would still he a wide variance, guys that know how to do high damage would still do high damage, low guys would stay low).

    The wide variance has been wide for quite some time now (years), therefore, to your statement about Cryptic to sit "4-6 weeks" and wait for complainers to adapt, you arent following your own train of thought, its been more than 4-6 weeks since this "issue" arose, time for you to adapt to it (and stop complaining), find a way to increase your own capabilites, live by your own example.
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    whamhammer1whamhammer1 Member Posts: 2,290 Arc User
    The 10% rule isnt needed if one or two players have a good grav well to hold the spheres in place, and thats only once possibility to avoid needing a "10% rule".
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    tobiashirttobiashirt Member Posts: 630 Arc User
    High DPS players are high DPS players for a reason- they learn, adapt and understand how to play the game and implement those things and incorporate what they learnt into their builds.
    Low DPS players (not all low end DPS players btw) are the polar opposite,

    So capping dmg because the better player excels and the bad player doesn't, so the bad player doesn't feel as bad, is not the answer. The bad player needs to do what the good player did and learn and understand how the game works. Isn't that the goal of Federation Humanity to better one self

    ...All I hear is "git gud"
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    nephitisnephitis Member Posts: 456 Arc User
    No, the game's balance is fine as it is.
    tobiashirt wrote: »
    ...All I hear is "git gud"
    Indeed... all justified too and I will say why.
    People who complain about the gap and difference of player strength fail to realize that even if you narrow that gap it will still always exist, and people (by mental processing) will always notice that gap and find inefficiencies in their own character builds. You could narrow the damage range to 500-2000 and people would still pay attention to it... and complain.

    Where am I going with this? Well, I am not telling you to lie down flat on your back like a submissive dog and accept everything. However, I want people who complain and find damage such a major issue to come more to terms with the fact that a gap will always exist in this type of game with this type of game design. In this game damage will always be a determining factor in how you generally perform and that will not change. You can either live with it or you can find a different game that has nothing to do with damage as performance (like Tetris or Snake).

    So as mean as this may sound... yes. To anyone reading, "get good" or perhaps find something else that is more tailored to your idea of gaming.
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    dareaudareau Member Posts: 2,390 Arc User
    No, there may be some issues with that, but the devs should work on several other things first.
    nephitis wrote: »
    tobiashirt wrote: »
    ...All I hear is "git gud"
    Indeed... all justified too and I will say why.
    People who complain about the gap and difference of player strength fail to realize that even if you narrow that gap it will still always exist, and people (by mental processing) will always notice that gap and find inefficiencies in their own character builds. You could narrow the damage range to 500-2000 and people would still pay attention to it... and complain.

    Where am I going with this? Well, I am not telling you to lie down flat on your back like a submissive dog and accept everything. However, I want people who complain and find damage such a major issue to come more to terms with the fact that a gap will always exist in this type of game with this type of game design. In this game damage will always be a determining factor in how you generally perform and that will not change. You can either live with it or you can find a different game that has nothing to do with damage as performance (like Tetris or Snake).

    So as mean as this may sound... yes. To anyone reading, "get good" or perhaps find something else that is more tailored to your idea of gaming.

    There's a world of difference when the "scaling" is within 10% to 20% of each other ("base" of 10k, 11k = Advanced, 12k = elite), and when the scaling is on the order of 1,000% or even 10,000%. (Grav well "listed" to do 1.8k, pops off a 18k hit, that's a 1,000% bigger whack). Going from 10k to 100k is 10,000%...

    Like some of these "legitimate" 100k builds (you know, the "real" DPSers and not the "I got nannied so I can haz me a big e-peen" peeps) that claim AHoD and Reciprocity are "necessary" traits to their build - that's $60 and/or months of grinding that I don't have. Same with Kemocite I... Perhaps to the level that I might be... dissuaded... from playing "competitive" STO (Read: participating in Queues & Events) because of a distinct "Pay(Grind) 2 Win" feel and the onslaught of... negative commentary... on how my "usually" 13k sustained DPS on a big target build is "fail" for Advanced content...

    (and for those who see me parse at like 6k, yeah, I know that I'd be a lot closer to that 13k if I did silly things like stay around the transformer instead of heading over to GW a Nanite Train and then get killed / run to shed aggro or elect to "neglect" some aspect of my build to get higher engine power...)

    Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...

    To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
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    risingwolfshadowrisingwolfshadow Member Posts: 619 Arc User
    Yes! Please make solving this a #1 priority!
    A "gap" is acceptable a canyon isn't, as pointed out by @dareau.

    As a side note, my PvP build for my t5u defiant clocks about 10-15k on ISA, last time I checked. No cheese, no gimmicks, no kemocite, FAW or sprd3.
    The plasmonic leech is the only lockbox console it has but I also carry the cloak console so I don't get a massive benefit from the leech.
    However it can demolish the tac cube on its own, the gate and out-tank some cruisers out there.
    In PvP land, however, there is a big trade off.
    My build lacks the ability to 1shot people or overpower other escorts and this leads to very hairy situations that 'I myself' have to work around and compensate for.

    But with the "canyon" created by the imbalanced state of powercreep equipment combined with abilities/traits/immunities that haven't been balanced tested there isn't a trade off, there's no consequence for putting everything into maximum DPS. It's why PvP is inhospitable and PvE boring.

    There's no strategy and involved in STO now. That is the problem.
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    risingwolfshadowrisingwolfshadow Member Posts: 619 Arc User
    Yes! Please make solving this a #1 priority!
    I increasingly get the feeling that STO leans so heavily towards spacebar-mashing DPS because Gecko isn't that good at playing STO.
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    shurkhemolightshurkhemolight Member Posts: 399 Arc User
    edited May 2016
    No, this is not important enough to require developer attention
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    I am puzzled by the replies and the result so far (which, at this point, show more "No" than "Yes" votes).

    So people honestly believe that blasting through a mission within a few minutes is a fun game experience? Or that the devs should create more Elite queues that then nobody (especially not the top DPSers) queues up for?

    While i agree that power creep has gone off the charts, really look at e30 ernest's post, better/more elite content for top geared dps players.

    Nerfs aren't needed, they especially need to keep their gruby hands off of sci from now on, more content for those top lvl players is better than nerfs.

    Taking things away from players in your video game is almost always a very very bad idea.

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    sonsofcainsonsofcain Member Posts: 63 Arc User
    No, this is not important enough to require developer attention
    No cheese, no gimmicks, no kemocite, FAW or sprd3 . . . . The plasmonic leech is the only lockbox console it has but I also carry the cloak console so I don't get a massive benefit from the leech.

    So let me get this straight. You've essentially given the PvP stamp-of-approval for running the absolute best console in the game, save for torp builds, but everything else is a gimmick?

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    nephitisnephitis Member Posts: 456 Arc User
    No, the game's balance is fine as it is.
    dareau wrote: »
    There's a world of difference when the "scaling" is within 10% to 20% of each other ("base" of 10k, 11k = Advanced, 12k = elite), and when the scaling is on the order of 1,000% or even 10,000%. (Grav well "listed" to do 1.8k, pops off a 18k hit, that's a 1,000% bigger whack). Going from 10k to 100k is 10,000%...

    Like some of these "legitimate" 100k builds (you know, the "real" DPSers and not the "I got nannied so I can haz me a big e-peen" peeps) that claim AHoD and Reciprocity are "necessary" traits to their build - that's $60 and/or months of grinding that I don't have. Same with Kemocite I... Perhaps to the level that I might be... dissuaded... from playing "competitive" STO (Read: participating in Queues & Events) because of a distinct "Pay(Grind) 2 Win" feel and the onslaught of... negative commentary... on how my "usually" 13k sustained DPS on a big target build is "fail" for Advanced content...

    (and for those who see me parse at like 6k, yeah, I know that I'd be a lot closer to that 13k if I did silly things like stay around the transformer instead of heading over to GW a Nanite Train and then get killed / run to shed aggro or elect to "neglect" some aspect of my build to get higher engine power...)
    And I will say it again. The definition of world's apart, large and small are irrelevant. The difference is always there. People will always notice that difference and find that their builds are not always up to par with other builds. People will always see the advantage in other builds and disadvantage in their own builds... and they will always ask for fair play. A more narrow gap is not fair play. Fair play is when everyone has the same number of chess pieces and equal number and equal size of grids to traverse.

    And that $60 dollar may be why they might have a stronger character/ship than you. They just invested more time, effort, learning, research and money into their gaming. You said it yourself, you do not have time for it... and by all means then do not force yourself to playing the game and putting effort and resources into the game that you do not feel comfortable with. At the same time, do not ask the players who actually do that to play and invest in this game at the same level as you. I am not saying that their level is higher and yours is lower. Your levels of gaming are just different and perhaps just respect and accept that.

    It is like going to the gym and seeing all the fit and strong looking men and women in there, and realizing that you yourself do not have the time, energy, resources and knowledge to do what they do... so instead you want to force the gym to reduce the amount of weights, limit how they can exercise and limit the number of hours they can exercise so that everyone is on equal platform.
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    You are missing the point. If everybody gets good, the problem becomes worse.
    Do you even see the flawed idea there? Narrowing the gap or even removing the gap entirely (if it were possible) would practically make everyone "good" as you point it out. At least on a mechanical level as far as equipment, traits and abilities goes etc. Right now we have a variety of builds and distinct differences (even if some builds are more favored than others) because the gap is as wide as it is.

    I am mostly shrugging at these threads and I will tell you why. Despite the few exceptions I have yet to see somebody from this DPS minority to really speak up about these issues. Yeah, they may not want to indiscriminate themselves but the point is. So far it's just one perspective and I consider this level of feedback perhaps a bit entitled and spoiled. It's not wrong and it's not stupid. Is it constructive criticism? Sometimes and sometimes not, but more often I personally see it more as plain complaining and whining than good arguments. Some of the things to get more "DPS"... and yes that is what we are talking about now, is not so difficult to achieve. I have posted some very decent and easy-to-get builds that I think can do more than people perhaps initially thought or expected. It just takes one to get off one's butt.

    I see players post here asking for advice and help, and do you know why? It is because they acknowledge that they may not have enough knowledge to achieve a better build with the least resources invested, so instead they turn to the forums because they have are hungry for that knowledge. They want to learn and they did so because they got off their butts. If they have more questions they return. If they want things faster than what their time allows they may spend some money. Whatever they did and whichever way they chose to walk they nonetheless took that extra step and that is all what may be needed.

    When I see players not being able to destroy things as fast and as efficient as I do... I do not care. I may giggle but it is not to make fun of them. It is because I know I was there once and to see how far I have pushed my own interest in this game to this level and see these results is rewarding. I don't complain or whine because these low DPS players are allowed to play that way and they are allowed to learn. Everyone has been there and everyone will be there. In the same way I hope that people will allow me to play the way I want in the way the game allows without complaining that I have learned too much, invested too much effort, time and knowledge, and spent too much money in this game. That's like a big slap in the face and I find it disrespectful and a lack of humility.

    If you find that some members of the DPS community disrespect your way and your level of gaming then you should do what you would do in real life. You tell them to treat you the way they want to be treated. You tell them to back off in a civil way and accept that you are where you are because you are either learning or because you just want to be there and like it. Or you just ignore their comments altogether. I honestly don't even read the chat and parsing info that some people may post. I think people would feel so much more healthy playing STO if they just ignored the bad things that people say and just play the game the way they want, and didn't pay so much attention to all the differences in builds.
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    risingwolfshadowrisingwolfshadow Member Posts: 619 Arc User
    edited May 2016
    Yes! Please make solving this a #1 priority!
    Lol DPSers are not the "top players" of STO.

    @sonsofcain Seeing as everyone either carries a plasmonic leech or uses immunities and zhal and I don't, the leech barely factors into it as I'm a console down anyway because of the cloak console (t5u defiant). Not only that everyone uses CritD/Pen weapons with EPtW2/3 or A2B and I still use an Accx3 DBB and 2 fleet DHCs.
    I'm not even going to mention the sci spam that's regularly thrown around in PvP that makes my build useless.
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    shurkhemolightshurkhemolight Member Posts: 399 Arc User
    edited May 2016
    No, this is not important enough to require developer attention
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    I am puzzled by the replies and the result so far (which, at this point, show more "No" than "Yes" votes).

    So people honestly believe that blasting through a mission within a few minutes is a fun game experience? Or that the devs should create more Elite queues that then nobody (especially not the top DPSers) queues up for?

    While i agree that power creep has gone off the charts, really look at e30 ernest's post, better/more elite content for top geared dps players.

    Nerfs aren't needed, they especially need to keep their gruby hands off of sci from now on, more content for those top lvl players is better than nerfs.

    Taking things away from players in your video game is almost always a very very bad idea.

    "Narrowing the gap" could have been done in different ways, "taking away" would just be one of them. Another one could be, for instance, a console or set that is easy to get and makes anyone who equips it get to a minimum of X dps (say, 20k) without increasing anyone'd dps who is beyond that minimum, and then plan the missions with that minimum X in mind.

    But the poll has shot that general notion down. As there apparently has been another vote that sais "we can only talk about this is in this thread", we have shifted to finding other solutions for that problem, preferably solutions that give everyone what they want.

    I believe a battle value (BV) system, driven by data of past performance of that player character with that ship, could do that. Players get a BV computed, the total BV of the team is calculated, then compared to the map's BV difficulty, and the rewards uon completion are then assigned according to that relation.

    While i understand what your trying to get at here, A) The console you mention will never happen unless Cryptic can sell it for profit on the Z-store. B) A battle value system,? you honestly feel that with all the stability and bug issues in this game that Cryptic is even remotely capable of patching such a system without it being a trainwreck.?

    I dont.

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    e30erneste30ernest Member Posts: 1,794 Arc User
    No, there may be some issues with that, but the devs should work on several other things first.
    Lol DPSers are not the "top players" of STO.

    Neither are PVP'ers.

    Everyone knows that Space Barbie rules all!
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    risingwolfshadowrisingwolfshadow Member Posts: 619 Arc User
    Yes! Please make solving this a #1 priority!
    Space barbie is truth! Space barbie is life!!
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    e30erneste30ernest Member Posts: 1,794 Arc User
    No, there may be some issues with that, but the devs should work on several other things first.
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    True! What's your cute per second?

    Higher than yours. :tongue:
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    snoggymack22snoggymack22 Member Posts: 7,084 Arc User
    No, this is not important enough to require developer attention
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    A week or two ago, I was in a pugged HOSA. Most members of the team were not good, which became clear after about a minute of fighting the queensguard fleet. So one captain left. With four people, it became really tough and intense, yet we kept our nerves and finally succeeded - and I was happy that my Jupiter class fleet carrier did not explode a single time. It was tough, it really felt like a battle whose outcome was far from certain (because it was), and that was fun.

    This ... this is almost a completely different issue. If this is what you find to be fun, nothing in this thread really will help you find more of that. What you're looking for, however, can be achieved. In fact it can be achieved in the queues right now. Or with friends and fleetmates. What you need is an ALTS-only queue. You're looking to fly with undergeared alts.

    This makes a lot more sense. And is something I really think you could and/or should start a channel and even a forum movement to capitalize on.

    Many people have undergeared alts. And many people have some issues about what to do with them. Because by the very nature of them being undergeared alts, they don't put the same amount of time into the gear/build/performance. You run into theme builds more. You definitely run into lower DPS, and people flying builds/ship combinations that aren't powered by muscle memory.

    I ran an ISA last night on my romulan in a pilot warbird. We failed both optionals. I didn't parse it, but the DPS for everyone was strange and had to be poor overall. The weird thing about it was, there was coordination of a sort. The spheres were kept away from the transformer. And people even seemed to be working under the 10% rule to an extent.

    But in the second transformer, some spheres leaked through. And because the damage was split between spheres and the objectives, we failed the second optional by about 10 seconds.

    Still the way this fight went, you would have loved it. It was intense. From go.

    If that's what you're looking for, then BV and adjusting the NPCs and all of that, won't get you the action you crave. You need to fly with people in less optimized setups. And that's out there already. There are a ton of people running with undergeared alts. I think if you were to work with some people to set up a channel like Star Trek Battles, but for undergeared alts, you might find more instances of the kind of intense crazy fights you crave. You're looking to fly in bad PUGs to up your action and intensity. And that's out there. Less so after 11.5 unfortunately. But it is out there. In fact much of what you're pushing forward in this thread is likely to have the opposite effect as it further differentiates players based on DPS metrics and you're trying to tap into the much more chaotic randomness of PUGging.

    One of the reasons many of us still PUG frequently is because you get those random few where everything goes wrong. And that can be very very fun.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    spiritwalker1969spiritwalker1969 Member Posts: 406 Arc User
    No, the game's balance is fine as it is.
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    Sure they could. It is a relatively simple concept that has no direct interactions with other parts of the game other than taking data from them as input.

    You also however do have to consider the impact that adding several sets of additional calculations to each queue would have, remember that to carry out these calculations correctly the server may be required to handle the data in a different manner to satisfy it's own logic protocols than you or I would if applying this to a tabletop game.

    The next hurdle to implementation would be to consider how many alterations to the code would be required - remember it may not be as simple to implement as just adding an instruction to "handicap" each player, this could in theory run to several hundred lines of code which would need altered, debugged and corrected before it even was ready to test. You would then have to consider where the data was held, I doubt that there would be sufficient physical RAM to hold the required data for each player and to maintain other game functions so we would be looking at virtual RAM which introduces a whole plethora of IO requests to the hard drive.

    Whilst not dismissing the idea, I would caution that stating that there would be no direct interactions with other parts of the game does not equate to will not have an impact on them. The additional calculations and IO interactions would undoubtedly have some impact in terms of CPU time and drive access which would affect other parts of the game - remember that unlike a tabletop game where you have the luxury of making your calculations before each turn for example, the server has to do everything almost simultaneously.
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