I don't think removing them would therefore be wise. They'd just have to include something else than 'shoot these enemies' in the objectives. Something that requires healing, tanking, targeting (add, for example, a ship that will be boarded by a NPC and which will fire at and can be killed by players but which may not be destroyed) or other things.
The DPS crowd usually seems content using their newly achieved numbers in the same old advanced content
Given the fact that the DPS community are the ones pushing the hardest for elite content, this comment makes no sense and weakens any valid argument you may have.
So yeah, it's not so much that tools were given to players. It's more that they allowed players to get new tools, something they knew would be too interesting to resist for the DPS crowd.
Or, in other words, if part of the players have no problem with spending insane amounts of money to upgrade their stuff, then giving people tools for content that does not (or only limited) exists isn't necessarily an illogical thing to do...
Sounds to me like you are saying Cryptic sold us powercreep as just a cash grab. This shouldn't make you happy. Help get rid of us from your advanced queues by providing a united front to the devs. Show that players of all types would benefit from the existence of popular elite content or stop blaming is for your problems.
been done and people hated it for some odd reason they called it "too hard"
Inform them that elite content is suppose to be hard. It is not ok for casual players to throw a temper tantrum and get their way if there is content that is too hard for them to complete. The sense of entitlement in that section of the community is huge.
The DPS crowd usually seems content using their newly achieved numbers in the same old advanced content
Given the fact that the DPS community are the ones pushing the hardest for elite content, this comment makes no sense and weakens any valid argument you may have.
So yeah, it's not so much that tools were given to players. It's more that they allowed players to get new tools, something they knew would be too interesting to resist for the DPS crowd.
Uh...what?
They didn't give you those tools because they like you so much. They gave it because they knew some would happily make use of it, regardless of whether there are Elite versions available for ISA, KASA etc.
Yes, the DPS crowd may be asking for Elite queues now. But when those weren't available, it didn't stop them from upgrading everything to the highest mk and quality available. The community has already spent money for their upgrades. Hence my comment - which was made as a reply to someone else and in a certain context you seem to ignore - that the logic of 'you don't give people tools for content that doesn't exist' is flawed, in this specific case.
I don't think removing them would therefore be wise. They'd just have to include something else than 'shoot these enemies' in the objectives. Something that requires healing, tanking, targeting (add, for example, a ship that will be boarded by a NPC and which will fire at and can be killed by players but which may not be destroyed) or other things.
Kill the game or finally give it the impulse it needs?
Move people away from the old repetitive content already.
[
This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
* If you can 1 or more pieces of gold XIV gear equipped you cannot enter a basic instance.
* If you can 4 or more pieces of gold XIV gear equipped you cannot enter an advanced instance.
Kill the game or finally give it the impulse it needs?
Move people away from the old repetitive content already.
Gotta agree with risian here, it would only help kill off the dwindling game population. Taking out popular content to force people to do things they do not find fun, even if you do, will not help the game at all.
I find it remarkable insulting how Devs cave in to pressure when players, no, PvErs had a fit when content became "difficult" briefly (if they spent less time playing A2B FAW space barbie and shouting at PvPers for wanting balance and actually learnt how to play the game they wouldn't have complained) and yet when it comes to the 6 years of new maps, balance, and PvP content (maybe a battlezone like Dyson was supposed to be) they become inexplicably deaf and have a tantrum.
* If you can 1 or more pieces of gold XIV gear equipped you cannot enter a basic instance.
* If you can 4 or more pieces of gold XIV gear equipped you cannot enter an advanced instance.
not really. I don't touch normal queues, unless its the only option (fleet alert perfect example). give me a queue with better reward, ill go in, figure out how to beat it, or someone else will and teach proper method. it will spread and those of us who can do the elites will not be in advanced most of the time unless we are training some promising up-and-coming noob with a similar mindset. reason being: rewards aren't as good.
one thing that would bring a lot of variety into the game is queues with "lives". die enough times and its over. no lengthy cooldown perhaps to keep player rage down. the results would be as follows:
limited lives would mean that a good tank would be needed so that he can generate max threat and absorb all the damage. ok damage from the tank along with max threat gen just to keep the enemies interested in him.
science toons become very important again as they would need to be keeping the tanks shields up, debuffing the TRIBBLE out of the enemy, and contributing with their modest damage when possible.
tacs would be there to pump out maximum DPS, to kill the baddies before they can wear down the tank or outlast the sci-debuffs.
yes there would still be a lot of player rage on this at first until everyone figured out their roles. then the whole system of the sci-eng-tac suddenly falls into place because DPS isn't everything.
this comes from a tac chasing dps but that's what a tac is supposed to do. BUT a true class system would be better for all.
I sometimes wonder wether players realise that these "top 5% DPSers" aren't necessarily skilled at playing the game. They have deep pockets and know how to stack broken abilities and consoles but their combat prowess is equivalent to that of an obese cat.
I've been challenged by 100k DPSers (after laughing at their lazy FAW spam on chat) and they can't take out my t5u defiant with mk14 purple gear.
100k DPS does not equate to skill. Queues should scale in AI difficulty, NPCs given extra abilities to counter players and greater health.
That'd separate the men from the boys and more importantly, allow for various types of builds and cooperation.
I miss the mandatory "optionals" I only started after DR and it's all I ever knew, it made me get good enough to be able to turn the tide as it were so it didn't always fail, now I'd kill for an elite version of any/all of the old queues
Let me put it this way, how many PvErs are good at PvP and how many PvPers are good at PvE?
I think you'll find all PvPers even pre DR and LoR can PvE with the best of them. PvP builds also work effectively (though not as efficiently) in PvE, the reverse however...
It should be content with NPCs that fight back and actually challenge a player's skill no health sponges.
been done and people hated it for some odd reason they called it "too hard"
What you're implying has never been done before in this game. Hell naw.
Spheres were given epte, a strange version that made them go all over the place, very randomly and getting stuck in the gateway. NOT a challenge.
Invisible not avoidable one shot torps. NOT a challenge.
Mandatory optionals. Decent idea, but the objective itself was an oxymoron. Optional... but mandatory?? WTH? Not an actual challenge, general carelessness is what made things go bad.
I actually enjoyed the Sphere with EPtE scenario. Okay they sometimes got stuck, but otherwise? it broke the tired old routine that everyone had gotten FAR too used to. It made players have to actually WORK to complete the mission. Okay they weren't necessarily hard to kill once you hit them, but you did at least have to chase them. Sorry - so far as I am concerned, it was FAR, FAR better than the previous/current scenario where the flying bullseyes Spheres slowly approach the generators with no sense of urgency whatsoever and simply sit there whilst some BFAW spammer parks up and vapes them.
But no. Can't break that routine, can we? Change is always a bad thing and heavens forbid that parking up and BFAW'ing everything is taken away as the default option for a quick ISA run.
its actually the quick isa run that caused me to post this. I will not even play with filesean, squirrelytunic, or porchsong at this point for one reason: their dps has skyrocketed with everyone elses. runs with them, though fast, are boring (sorry if this is wrong to use names but I'm not exactly badmouthing them)
There are things i would welcome for the infected space queue. Maybe not the EptE for the nanite spheres, but rather something like a strong electric FBP from the transformers when fired upon when the generators are still intact.
This would at least scale back the infernal BFAW culture which haunts that queue. Who here remembers the old days with the 10% rule.
This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
There are things i would welcome for the infected space queue. Maybe not the EptE for the nanite spheres, but rather something like a strong electric FBP from the transformers when fired upon when the generators are still intact.
This would at least scale back the infernal BFAW culture which haunts that queue. Who here remembers the old days with the 10% rule.
Ouch but interesting.
However such a feedback pulse would hurt cannon users too when under CSV, but would at least be fair. In any case I would find a Feedback Pulse 3 funny, not from the transformer but rather from the (!) GATE (!). Of course only for as long as it’s healed by at least 1 transformer.
Gate Doping… man, grandma always said it’s deadly.
Post edited by peterconnorfirst on
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
I've been challenged by 100k DPSers (after laughing at their lazy FAW spam on chat) and they can't take out my t5u defiant with mk14 purple gear.
So you encountered a good PvEer in *your* arena of play and managed to defeat him?
Now you conclude dishing out decent DPS in pve takes no skill?
Unfortunately you can’t show off your pve/DPS skills as coparison just because of missing good gear?
What an awesome way to fool yourself in thinking you are better than he is.
It's an interesting point nonetheless though. I suspect that there are some players who are awesome at ISA but suck at just about anything else due to the fact that their build was created with nothing other than Borg STF's in general, and ISA in particular, in mind.
So yeah, in honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if the scenario you quote did actually occur, because there is no way that the lazy 'park and BFAW' scenario that ISA has taught so many would work as well against a player in a nimble escort.
Think it’s always prudent not to generalize.
We have thousands of players in sto and I bet each is a bit different. I have also seen a lot of weird stuff where peeps basically copied top end pve builds just to explode all over the place in ISA. On other occasion I saw peeps that never PvP win against good PvPer because they had simply a much better build by luck rendereing them undefeatable by their opponent.
But after 6 years of power creep with tens of thousands of items, traits and stuff it is always the same in general. What you need is:
1) Massive knowledge what works where best in game
2) Much time to play and/or pay for the stuff you need/want
3) Lots of practice with it
Those players who invest most of the upper stuff will end up being best in game, no matter what they choose to become good at. If you forget about just 1 of those three things you are in for nasty surprises.
As a PvE weirdo who manages to dish out 130K ISA dps with cannons but has never scratched the 100k mark with beams I can quiet assure you and everybody else that ->lots of practice<- is needed to accomplish either.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
There are things i would welcome for the infected space queue. Maybe not the EptE for the nanite spheres, but rather something like a strong electric FBP from the transformers when fired upon when the generators are still intact.
This would at least scale back the infernal BFAW culture which haunts that queue. Who here remembers the old days with the 10% rule.
Ouch but interesting.
However such a feedback pulse would hurt cannon users too when under CSV, but would at least be fair. In any case I would find a Feedback Pulse 3 funny, not from the transformer but rather from the (!) GATE (!). Of course only for as long as it’s healed by at least 1 transformer.
Gate Doping… man, grandma always said it’s deadly.
Some new npc-abilities which can't be countered by conventional means would be nice(e.g. killing nakuhl clone ships with emit unstable warp bubble). There are a ton of boff abilities which could be revived that way.
Sadly cryptic has to be careful though, remember the introduction of the Voth? There were a number of people complaining about the sci spam the Voth dished out. It was a good challenge and many liked it but it was the ones that couldn't cope that made the most noise.
ISE should be monster play! How hilarious would that be! Players zipping about as Borg coordinating and countering the BFAW spam with scramble sensors (did I just solve the monotony of BFAW DPSers by suggesting the Devs give scramble sensors for the Borg?).
A bit like PvPers did with the 5 a2b FAWtard teams in arena a few years ago. It was a hilarious sight watching a team accidentally take out their teammates.
Perhaps, to keep things interesting, they should add some randomisation to these missions. They already did that with Korfez Elite and other missions have some random components in them as well.
Add random elements to ISA and ISE: have a cube or tac cube warp in at random spots and at different times and launch a surprise attack (combined with the anti-FAW measures so you wouldn't be able to just keep pressing spacebar to deal with the surprise). Have other random enemies like the Undine or the Tal Shiar with their love for Borg tech show up.
Add random other objectives, like protecting a ship that will be boarded by a NPC to retrieve data or an important person who's been assimilated etc. In short, make the mission less predictable. Beside adding some challenge, it would also keep things interesting when replaying the mission.
While I would not mind changes to ISA(E) or the Borg STF in general which would prohibit players from using their overpowered builds to *cheat* through (gate doping/camping) I highly question any changes to the basic mechanic of the fight.
When I look at the shows most of the core aspects of the Borg have been implemented rather well when it comes to fighting them in STO. Considering how voyager fought them with future tech in the shows finale I also don’t really mind the player’s theoretical (and practical) OPness (when their builds are strong enough) over them. I mean the federation investigates, the borg only assimilate. And on each encounter the federation was victorious in the end. It’s exactly the same thing we do when tinkering out the best game builds possible under the continuous influx of new stuff.
However I really must point out that there is a reason why players favor fighting the borg. It’s because they are the way they are. If it would be taken away from them (us) the results would be that they would be as unpopular to engage like a lot of other NPC enemies.
What makes me wonder though is why all those peeps around here asking the Borg STFs to be changed don’t use the multiple other enemies/maps around to give themselves a good time?
Post edited by peterconnorfirst on
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
I can only agree and repeat what I said elsewhere:
We need Elites for the rest of the queues. ISE, KSE, CSE, CCE etc...
This would go a long way in making end-game content somewhat proportioned to the "pew pew" at our disposal.
Powercreep is, IMO, a good thing overall. It provides the playerbase a sense of progress. At the same time, however, you need the content to put all this potential to good use. STO suffers from a severe lack of this kind of content.
Maybe because having only an Elite Queue has also kept people away as they cannot learn in a Normal or Advanced Korfez. Stupid decision.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Korfez (or FEZ) runs are called out almost as often as ISA runs in the DPS channels. Maybe the "Elite" tag is why it isn't being run in public queues as often.
Also, the lack of a Normal or Advanced may turn-off players since they don't have a chance to practice before heading into an Elite. I for one avoided this queue for a long time just because of that (I did not want to run in blind and affect the team).
Comments
I don't think removing them would therefore be wise. They'd just have to include something else than 'shoot these enemies' in the objectives. Something that requires healing, tanking, targeting (add, for example, a ship that will be boarded by a NPC and which will fire at and can be killed by players but which may not be destroyed) or other things.
been done and people hated it for some odd reason they called it "too hard"
Given the fact that the DPS community are the ones pushing the hardest for elite content, this comment makes no sense and weakens any valid argument you may have.
Uh...what?
Sounds to me like you are saying Cryptic sold us powercreep as just a cash grab. This shouldn't make you happy. Help get rid of us from your advanced queues by providing a united front to the devs. Show that players of all types would benefit from the existence of popular elite content or stop blaming is for your problems.
Inform them that elite content is suppose to be hard. It is not ok for casual players to throw a temper tantrum and get their way if there is content that is too hard for them to complete. The sense of entitlement in that section of the community is huge.
They didn't give you those tools because they like you so much. They gave it because they knew some would happily make use of it, regardless of whether there are Elite versions available for ISA, KASA etc.
Yes, the DPS crowd may be asking for Elite queues now. But when those weren't available, it didn't stop them from upgrading everything to the highest mk and quality available. The community has already spent money for their upgrades. Hence my comment - which was made as a reply to someone else and in a certain context you seem to ignore - that the logic of 'you don't give people tools for content that doesn't exist' is flawed, in this specific case.
Kill the game or finally give it the impulse it needs?
Move people away from the old repetitive content already.
[
* If you can 1 or more pieces of gold XIV gear equipped you cannot enter a basic instance.
* If you can 4 or more pieces of gold XIV gear equipped you cannot enter an advanced instance.
Gotta agree with risian here, it would only help kill off the dwindling game population. Taking out popular content to force people to do things they do not find fun, even if you do, will not help the game at all.
not really. I don't touch normal queues, unless its the only option (fleet alert perfect example). give me a queue with better reward, ill go in, figure out how to beat it, or someone else will and teach proper method. it will spread and those of us who can do the elites will not be in advanced most of the time unless we are training some promising up-and-coming noob with a similar mindset. reason being: rewards aren't as good.
one thing that would bring a lot of variety into the game is queues with "lives". die enough times and its over. no lengthy cooldown perhaps to keep player rage down. the results would be as follows:
limited lives would mean that a good tank would be needed so that he can generate max threat and absorb all the damage. ok damage from the tank along with max threat gen just to keep the enemies interested in him.
science toons become very important again as they would need to be keeping the tanks shields up, debuffing the TRIBBLE out of the enemy, and contributing with their modest damage when possible.
tacs would be there to pump out maximum DPS, to kill the baddies before they can wear down the tank or outlast the sci-debuffs.
yes there would still be a lot of player rage on this at first until everyone figured out their roles. then the whole system of the sci-eng-tac suddenly falls into place because DPS isn't everything.
this comes from a tac chasing dps but that's what a tac is supposed to do. BUT a true class system would be better for all.
They have deep pockets and know how to stack broken abilities and consoles but their combat prowess is equivalent to that of an obese cat.
I've been challenged by 100k DPSers (after laughing at their lazy FAW spam on chat) and they can't take out my t5u defiant with mk14 purple gear.
100k DPS does not equate to skill.
Queues should scale in AI difficulty, NPCs given extra abilities to counter players and greater health.
That'd separate the men from the boys and more importantly, allow for various types of builds and cooperation.
So you encountered a good PvEer in *your* arena of play and managed to defeat him?
Now you conclude dishing out decent DPS in pve takes no skill?
Unfortunately you can’t show off your pve/DPS skills as coparison just because of missing good gear?
What an awesome way to fool yourself in thinking you are better than he is.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
I think you'll find all PvPers even pre DR and LoR can PvE with the best of them.
PvP builds also work effectively (though not as efficiently) in PvE, the reverse however...
Phelps can "bowl" pretty well. Especially today, given the date.
its actually the quick isa run that caused me to post this. I will not even play with filesean, squirrelytunic, or porchsong at this point for one reason: their dps has skyrocketed with everyone elses. runs with them, though fast, are boring (sorry if this is wrong to use names but I'm not exactly badmouthing them)
This would at least scale back the infernal BFAW culture which haunts that queue. Who here remembers the old days with the 10% rule.
Ouch but interesting.
However such a feedback pulse would hurt cannon users too when under CSV, but would at least be fair. In any case I would find a Feedback Pulse 3 funny, not from the transformer but rather from the (!) GATE (!). Of course only for as long as it’s healed by at least 1 transformer.
Gate Doping… man, grandma always said it’s deadly.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
Think it’s always prudent not to generalize.
We have thousands of players in sto and I bet each is a bit different. I have also seen a lot of weird stuff where peeps basically copied top end pve builds just to explode all over the place in ISA. On other occasion I saw peeps that never PvP win against good PvPer because they had simply a much better build by luck rendereing them undefeatable by their opponent.
But after 6 years of power creep with tens of thousands of items, traits and stuff it is always the same in general. What you need is:
1) Massive knowledge what works where best in game
2) Much time to play and/or pay for the stuff you need/want
3) Lots of practice with it
Those players who invest most of the upper stuff will end up being best in game, no matter what they choose to become good at. If you forget about just 1 of those three things you are in for nasty surprises.
As a PvE weirdo who manages to dish out 130K ISA dps with cannons but has never scratched the 100k mark with beams I can quiet assure you and everybody else that ->lots of practice<- is needed to accomplish either.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
I can support this as an addition to ISE. :-)
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
ISE should be monster play! How hilarious would that be! Players zipping about as Borg coordinating and countering the BFAW spam with scramble sensors (did I just solve the monotony of BFAW DPSers by suggesting the Devs give scramble sensors for the Borg?).
A bit like PvPers did with the 5 a2b FAWtard teams in arena a few years ago. It was a hilarious sight watching a team accidentally take out their teammates.
Add random elements to ISA and ISE: have a cube or tac cube warp in at random spots and at different times and launch a surprise attack (combined with the anti-FAW measures so you wouldn't be able to just keep pressing spacebar to deal with the surprise). Have other random enemies like the Undine or the Tal Shiar with their love for Borg tech show up.
Add random other objectives, like protecting a ship that will be boarded by a NPC to retrieve data or an important person who's been assimilated etc. In short, make the mission less predictable. Beside adding some challenge, it would also keep things interesting when replaying the mission.
That’s a solid question here.
While I would not mind changes to ISA(E) or the Borg STF in general which would prohibit players from using their overpowered builds to *cheat* through (gate doping/camping) I highly question any changes to the basic mechanic of the fight.
When I look at the shows most of the core aspects of the Borg have been implemented rather well when it comes to fighting them in STO. Considering how voyager fought them with future tech in the shows finale I also don’t really mind the player’s theoretical (and practical) OPness (when their builds are strong enough) over them. I mean the federation investigates, the borg only assimilate. And on each encounter the federation was victorious in the end. It’s exactly the same thing we do when tinkering out the best game builds possible under the continuous influx of new stuff.
However I really must point out that there is a reason why players favor fighting the borg. It’s because they are the way they are. If it would be taken away from them (us) the results would be that they would be as unpopular to engage like a lot of other NPC enemies.
What makes me wonder though is why all those peeps around here asking the Borg STFs to be changed don’t use the multiple other enemies/maps around to give themselves a good time?
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
We need Elites for the rest of the queues. ISE, KSE, CSE, CCE etc...
This would go a long way in making end-game content somewhat proportioned to the "pew pew" at our disposal.
Powercreep is, IMO, a good thing overall. It provides the playerbase a sense of progress. At the same time, however, you need the content to put all this potential to good use. STO suffers from a severe lack of this kind of content.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Korfez (or FEZ) runs are called out almost as often as ISA runs in the DPS channels. Maybe the "Elite" tag is why it isn't being run in public queues as often.
Also, the lack of a Normal or Advanced may turn-off players since they don't have a chance to practice before heading into an Elite. I for one avoided this queue for a long time just because of that (I did not want to run in blind and affect the team).
| USS Curiosity - Pathfinder | USS Rift - Eternal |
The Science Ship Build Thread - Share your Sci Ship builds here!