section 31

ussjohnbrown

If section 31 had to kill or target a person or group who would it be and why?

mustrumridcully0

Sela. Because she knows too many secrets, provides too much of a threat to the Republic Republic (a Federation ally), has commited too many crimes, and has escaped justice too often.

equinox976

well since they failed to kill Bashir/O'Brian following the very open breach that they caused (in addition to allowing the Dominion to remain as a potential threat) - I am unsure of how able section 31 is to actually carry out assassinations

P.S: They should have made Garak the head of Section 31 - can you imagine him being trapped by such a lame trick dreamed up by Bashir??

Sloan was inept

garaks31

s31 doesn't exist and garak is just a simple ...

equinox976

garaks31 wrote: »

s31 doesn't exist and garak is just a simple ...

Hah! Good ol'e Garak. He makes Sloane look like inspector Clouseau.

tacticalrook

OP didn't suggest or even mention the possibility of success. They simply asked if compelled, who do you suppose Section 31 would target, and why?

A safe bet would be the player's character would be the target. After all, by the time the player's character has finished the reputation grind, they have likely become the galaxy's most prolific mass-murderer.

isthisscience

Sela and similar are far too useful. They are probably allies.

Nope, they would kill the player. We have become far too powerful, close to foreign powers (inc house pegh) and have shown we don't share their ideals with our actions on ancient Iconia. We are not their agent and throw an unstable element into a critical situation. Like a Roman general returning victorious from war, we're best eliminated before we cross the rubicon

angrytarg

Whoever the f they want gone for whatever reason they want. Autonomous reactionaire militias don't need reasons ​​

nikeix

"Wait... Why'd you kill him? He was harmless."

"...for practice."

misterferengi

Was there ever any further attempts by Section 31 to eliminate Bashir in the novels/books?, Bashir was a serious threat to their organisation and directly responsible for the death of one of their agents in Sloan.

equinox976

misterferengi#8959 wrote: »

Was there ever any further attempts by Section 31 to eliminate Bashir in the novels/books?, Bashir was a serious threat to their organisation and directly responsible for the death of one of their agents in Sloan.

I've only ever seen such a thing mentioned in non-cannon books so I don't think so. I find it very strange though, because as you say him and O'Brian caused them alot of headache. Personally I think they should have let the founders die - their actions on Cardasia Prime showed them to be genocidal maniacs themselves. What's good for the goose, is good for the gander.

gradii

Section 31 does not exist.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

misterferengi

Section 31 does need to exist but as a Special/Black Ops part of Starfleet Security, a group of Security Officers assigned with doing the dirty job's Section 31 were shown to do.
Regardless of how idealistic or moralistic the Federation wants to be, they are surrounded by other powers agencies that don't play nice, so with those types of agencies, you can't play fair or by the rules as they will cut you open and leave you to bleed. So you have to have a counter agency yourself.
The only thing they kinda got wrong with Section 31 is that they designed it as a rouge agent, answerable to no one. They should be answerable to the Chief of Starfleet Security as a special off the record agency that the Federation Council and President don't know about so can deny knowledge therefore accountability like with have today.

angrytarg

misterferengi#8959 wrote: »

Section 31 does need to exist but as a Special/Black Ops part of Starfleet Security, a group of Security Officers assigned with doing the dirty job's Section 31 were shown to do.
Regardless of how idealistic or moralistic the Federation wants to be, they are surrounded by other powers agencies that don't play nice, so with those types of agencies, you can't play fair or by the rules as they will cut you open and leave you to bleed. So you have to have a counter agency yourself.
The only thing they kinda got wrong with Section 31 is that they designed it as a rouge agent, answerable to no one. They should be answerable to the Chief of Starfleet Security as a special off the record agency that the Federation Council and President don't know about so can deny knowledge therefore accountability like with have today.

You cannot defend your ideals by violating the same ideals. If you use terror to fight terror you become the terrorist, there is nothing that magically separates the deeds of the one claiming to "defend" the other so it doesn't have to resort to those methods.

S31 needs to be fought by Starfleet/UFP like any other "villian".​​

nikeix

On the other hand some of the best Star Trek stories revolve around the fact that the Federation's ideals are occasionally completely unworkable, arbitrary, and horribly destructive. The Prime Directive is pretty much a benchmark for rigid jackassery bordering on the outright genocidally murderous. And it emerges in the setting as some unassailable gospel that cannot be questioned or challenged in any form short of career-wrecking defiance. Its like the ultimate bit of anthropomorphic chauvinism: If your race doesn't have warp drive, TRIBBLE you. Not because warp drive is some obvious moral boundary, but because we have warp drive and it's the thing that makes us feel important. If your precious diversity lead your civilization to ANY OTHER PATH, meh, let them rot in their own filth. It's wrong to help them in any way.

kitsunesnout

gradii wrote: »

Section 31 does not exist.

We exist, just a humble, misunderstood science branch since the early days of the Federation studying the long-term ecological effects of industrial contamination of water ice below 32F on all member worlds and, *long scientific rambling continues due to my science captains background in such topics* *flash*



I do however wonder if we'll ever get to do anything more with S31, it's been a long time since we've seen you know who, aside from him being at the Krenim outpost for a bit without any dialogue.

angrytarg

nikeix wrote: »

On the other hand some of the best Star Trek stories revolve around the fact that the Federation's ideals are occasionally completely unworkable, arbitrary, and horribly destructive. The Prime Directive is pretty much a benchmark for rigid jackassery bordering on the outright genocidally murderous. And it emerges in the setting as some unassailable gospel that cannot be questioned or challenged in any form short of career-wrecking defiance. Its like the ultimate bit of anthropomorphic chauvinism: If your race doesn't have warp drive, TRIBBLE you. Not because warp drive is some obvious moral boundary, but because we have warp drive and it's the thing that makes us feel important. If your precious diversity lead your civilization to ANY OTHER PATH, meh, let them rot in their own filth. It's wrong to help them in any way.

To be fair, the prime directive excuse wasn't as bad before VOY completely ridiculed it. Moral dilemma is appreciated and of course shows that not everything works out the way you once thought. But praising S31 for "doing what needs to be done" is not a dilemma, it's simply giving in to fears and paranoia, taking the easy way out.​​

misterferengi

angrytarg wrote: »

misterferengi#8959 wrote: »

Section 31 does need to exist but as a Special/Black Ops part of Starfleet Security, a group of Security Officers assigned with doing the dirty job's Section 31 were shown to do.
Regardless of how idealistic or moralistic the Federation wants to be, they are surrounded by other powers agencies that don't play nice, so with those types of agencies, you can't play fair or by the rules as they will cut you open and leave you to bleed. So you have to have a counter agency yourself.
The only thing they kinda got wrong with Section 31 is that they designed it as a rouge agent, answerable to no one. They should be answerable to the Chief of Starfleet Security as a special off the record agency that the Federation Council and President don't know about so can deny knowledge therefore accountability like with have today.

You cannot defend your ideals by violating the same ideals. If you use terror to fight terror you become the terrorist, there is nothing that magically separates the deeds of the one claiming to "defend" the other so it doesn't have to resort to those methods.

S31 needs to be fought by Starfleet/UFP like any other "villian".​​

Then the Federation cannot exist as the Obsidian Order and Tal Shiar would cripple the Federation with its ruthlessness. I can't see a Starfleet Security playing by the rules doing much to stop them. Section 31 doesn't have to go into their territory and act the same, but when it comes to tracking down these spies and agents at home they should be able to be a little more unrestricted in there methods than the clean cut Starfleet Security Officer who won't step on civil liberties even when lives are at stake or the security of the entire Federation for fear of breaking the Prime Directive.
Section 31 doesn't have to be the villains, its just security being allowed to get those nice clean uniforms dirty when being polite doesn't work.

jros83

Section 31 is a joke anyway because depending on the writer, it's either a shadow ops group, or a group of evil intent. You can't debate the merits of a thing when that thing, by design, has no set quality to it. In one series, novel or episode Section 31 is "doing what it must, but they're not bad." In another, "Section 31 is nothing but murderous thugs who must be stopped at all costs!" a-la the "Kirk Cabal."

Section 31 is a plot device, and nothing more.

nikeix

I frequently find section 31 reassuring... it's good to know that there are still some human beings left in the setting, because most Starfleet officers behave like some sort of genetically domesticated serenely lotus-eating offshoot. Although it does seem like right around the rank of Admiral you finally get to go back to being self-promoting empire-building predatory jerks like we have on this planet.

I HATE that Section 31 is supposedly so invisible -- it makes all other responsible entities idiots and that's just bad writing. I'd find them a thousand times more useful as a known and feared cipher, a black box more akin to the current day NSA where you know they're there and you know what they're for, you just don't really know what they're doing on a day to day basis. Once in a while you see some couriers hand delivering data packets to the Office of the President, and sometimes you here rumors that something went down so quietly no one knows who did it but it could be, you know, them. Maybe.

angrytarg

misterferengi#8959 wrote: »

Then the Federation cannot exist as the Obsidian Order and Tal Shiar would cripple the Federation with its ruthlessness. I can't see a Starfleet Security playing by the rules doing much to stop them. Section 31 doesn't have to go into their territory and act the same, but when it comes to tracking down these spies and agents at home they should be able to be a little more unrestricted in there methods than the clean cut Starfleet Security Officer who won't step on civil liberties even when lives are at stake or the security of the entire Federation for fear of breaking the Prime Directive.
Section 31 doesn't have to be the villains, its just security being allowed to get those nice clean uniforms dirty when being polite doesn't work.

There are at least three federate agencies dealing with this. UFP Security, Starfleet Security and Starfleet Intelligence in addition to the federate memberstates agencies. They did quite well "defending the federation" before S31 was conceived.​​

jros83

angrytarg wrote: »

misterferengi#8959 wrote: »

Then the Federation cannot exist as the Obsidian Order and Tal Shiar would cripple the Federation with its ruthlessness. I can't see a Starfleet Security playing by the rules doing much to stop them. Section 31 doesn't have to go into their territory and act the same, but when it comes to tracking down these spies and agents at home they should be able to be a little more unrestricted in there methods than the clean cut Starfleet Security Officer who won't step on civil liberties even when lives are at stake or the security of the entire Federation for fear of breaking the Prime Directive.
Section 31 doesn't have to be the villains, its just security being allowed to get those nice clean uniforms dirty when being polite doesn't work.

There are at least three federate agencies dealing with this. UFP Security, Starfleet Security and Starfleet Intelligence in addition to the federate memberstates agencies. They did quite well "defending the federation" before S31 was conceived.​​

Section 31 predates the UFP.

It was established the moment Starfleet was established.

So your argument is flawed at the end there.

And no, just because you might possibly hate Enterprise, doesn't mean Enterprise magically does not exist and anything mentioned in it has disappeared.

angrytarg

jros83 wrote: »

Section 31 predates the UFP.

It was established the moment Starfleet was established.

So your argument is flawed at the end there.

S31 was introduced in DS9. ENT retcons don't count, by the time the stuff was written there was no S31.​​

legendarylycan

crashdragon wrote: »

gradii wrote: »

Section 31 does not exist.

That's right, it does not exist. Like tax refunds and honest politicians.

a lot of peopel get tax refunds...but i'll give you honest politicians - you'd be far more likely to find a unicorn than one of those (i was going to put bigfoot at first, but there is actually a possibility of that existing, however slim...no one's ever presented evidence of any kind relating to unicorn sightings, however)​​

jros83

angrytarg wrote: »

jros83 wrote: »

Section 31 predates the UFP.

It was established the moment Starfleet was established.

So your argument is flawed at the end there.

S31 was introduced in DS9. ENT retcons don't count, by the time the stuff was written there was no S31.​​

Wrong.

ENT counts. Not liking ENT means nothing. Canon is not dictated by your personal feelings.

jros83

jros83 wrote: »

angrytarg wrote: »

misterferengi#8959 wrote: »

Then the Federation cannot exist as the Obsidian Order and Tal Shiar would cripple the Federation with its ruthlessness. I can't see a Starfleet Security playing by the rules doing much to stop them. Section 31 doesn't have to go into their territory and act the same, but when it comes to tracking down these spies and agents at home they should be able to be a little more unrestricted in there methods than the clean cut Starfleet Security Officer who won't step on civil liberties even when lives are at stake or the security of the entire Federation for fear of breaking the Prime Directive.
Section 31 doesn't have to be the villains, its just security being allowed to get those nice clean uniforms dirty when being polite doesn't work.

There are at least three federate agencies dealing with this. UFP Security, Starfleet Security and Starfleet Intelligence in addition to the federate memberstates agencies. They did quite well "defending the federation" before S31 was conceived.​​

Section 31 predates the UFP.

It was established the moment Starfleet was established.

So your argument is flawed at the end there.

And no, just because you might possibly hate Enterprise, doesn't mean Enterprise magically does not exist and anything mentioned in it has disappeared.

jros83

Of course you can argue all you want. I however have nothing more to say on the matter.

angrytarg

jros83 wrote: »

Wrong.

ENT counts. Not liking ENT means nothing. Canon is not dictated by your personal feelings.

When the authors wrote everything prior to the DS9 episode that introduced S31 it didn't exist. The Federation countered all threats without S31, as such it wasn't necessary to violate their principles to uphold them. This is precisely why retcons don't work because they undermine previous works.​​

jros83

Don't care what you think works well or not. It's not up to you. Sucks doesn't it.

You don't like ENT. You don't like the concept of S31. That's the limit of your opinion. And you're welcome to it, just don't expect me to believe it's based on anything more substantial and credible.

By the way, I type to people a certain way, but take me with a grain of salt.

nikeix

Stories were told about the Federation managing to defend itself from the types of threats you're pointing at prior to Section 31 being ret-conned into long-standing existence.

I think narratively Section 31 serves an important function, one that actually embraces its all over the map presentation: that the Federation, hundreds of worlds and scores of major species DOES NOT exist in a state of consensus. No matter how bad it's dumbed down for the TV audience, its too big to always be of one mind. Section 31 can be a necessary evil and it can be a pack of blood-soaked thugs, but in any form at least its a dissenting voice.