But seriously, drops and drop chance is what keeps people coming back...
It's what keeps some people coming back, mostly those who IMO are glutton for punishment. MMOs where I needed to run a dungeon 150+ times to eventually get a drop I needed (assuming no one else wanted/needed to roll for it) I uninstalled and never looked back. Just about everyone in our fleet is the same.
I must agree with valoreah. I have had my fill of guaranteed efforts resulting in random rewards. I will not bother chasing any shiny that's walled behind a RNG ever again. Same reason all of my equipment upgrades stop at MK XIV regardless of rarity, why I have never bothered with the current incarnation of the crafting system, and why I immediately discard all lockboxes. It's a cheap mechanic to inflate metrics and bolster microtransactions, and I'll have no part of it.
Did nobody of you play computer games 20-25 years ago? There's basically three basic game concepts. A game that is based around storytelling, a game that is based around skill/dexterity or a game that is based around improving chances to overcome rulesets based on "rolls" or chance. A hack&slay looter has nothing to do with microtransactions or bolstering of metrics.
In the end it's of course a matter of taste, you are free to dislike the concept of a hack&slay looter, but STO is such a game already, they only removed the loot from it and replaced it with "guaranteed success" / window shopping. You now grind currency to buy something to grind more currency.
I wished for the RNG to be removed. Rule of thumb, careful of what you wish for.
Retired. I'm now in search for that perfect space anomaly.
But seriously, drops and drop chance is what keeps people coming back...
It's what keeps some people coming back, mostly those who IMO are glutton for punishment. MMOs where I needed to run a dungeon 150+ times to eventually get a drop I needed (assuming no one else wanted/needed to roll for it) I uninstalled and never looked back. Just about everyone in our fleet is the same.
And yet it works well enough and attracts enough people that the vast majority and all the most popular MMORPG's use that very system.
And back in the day when STO had this system too with its "Tech Drops" I never had problems finding people who wanted to run the missions. Sure it dropped off a little and then leveled off, but once the reputation system was introduced its been nothing but a constant downward trend.
While it isn't for everyone clearly it does something right.(And quite frankly, all the content in the game shouldn't be for everyone.)
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid." - Q
There's a big difference between how D2 does boss loot and the old STFs. In D2 any loot you got from killing a boss was freely tradable. But in the old STF system you had to get lucky to get the drops you needed yourself.
I miss the old MMO drop mechanism (iRO had it, and sto used to) where you finish a queue (or boss NPC) and if you're lucky you get the drop. Lotta people didn't like that mechanic but it keeps you coming back. Maybe change the algorithm a little so it *can* drop a rep item (not 100% of the time) and have said rep item be random from a predetermined list of items. It would add interest to queues and not break the rep mechanic.
No thank you.
I liked them too but will never come back to STO so why talk about it?
There is a reason why they took it down. Dsthal wanted to cater to the whiners at that time and ever since this MMO listen mostly to those who whine the most. Remember how they "fixed" dilithium/marks/EC drops from the foundry or "fixed" the rate of gaining SPEC points due to DR then nerfed it to death Zombie ground battlezone and even Argala?
Who knows if peeps keep complaining long enough they might reverse it again...where is that guy who keeps writing about PvE queus being "dead"?. Long shot but realistically speaking doubtful if they will ever reverse that kind of random reward system from the past. Nice to reminisce how it was though
...My point is not that everything has to be soloable. My point is that the arbitrary static team sizes are A-- Arbitrary, and B-- Static when they don't need to be. The game can scale and there's no defensible reason why every mission shouldn't...
I don't want or need solo-versions of group missions. It shouldn't be necessary. I just want the blinking queue I want to play to pop quickly on Normal where there's no drama over optionals and fails and quit wasting my time so I can get the marks I need. Arbitrary limits on team size defeat that goal. They need to go.
The only problem with this idea is that if you reduce the amount of players required to start from10 to 5 (or 5 to 3 or whatever), you'll have the same people complaining 5 is too many.
If they design a mission that requires 5 people because you need 5 different people doing 5 different things, and it's fun to play, I have no quarrel with the limit because it's not arbitrary. If the only reason you need 5 people is because you're getting zerg rushed, that's not a good reason. There's a difference.
...My point is not that everything has to be soloable. My point is that the arbitrary static team sizes are A-- Arbitrary, and B-- Static when they don't need to be. The game can scale and there's no defensible reason why every mission shouldn't...
I don't want or need solo-versions of group missions. It shouldn't be necessary. I just want the blinking queue I want to play to pop quickly on Normal where there's no drama over optionals and fails and quit wasting my time so I can get the marks I need. Arbitrary limits on team size defeat that goal. They need to go.
The only problem with this idea is that if you reduce the amount of players required to start from10 to 5 (or 5 to 3 or whatever), you'll have the same people complaining 5 is too many.
If they design a mission that requires 5 people because you need 5 different people doing 5 different things, and it's fun to play, I have no quarrel with the limit because it's not arbitrary. If the only reason you need 5 people is because you're getting zerg rushed, that's not a good reason. There's a difference.
exactly this ^^
in most other mmo's, the team size for any level appropriate encounter is based on role and dps. when asked the question.. will we see a move towards specific roles, ie mmo trinity, with the new skill revamp, @borticuscryptic replied with a very clear no.. "it isnt that kind of game, never has been, never will be" the game is based on dps, with each captain being able to manage their own cc, health etc.
with all encounters being set up to last an avg time of whatnot, either by setting a timer with a wave mechanic, or directly up scaling the health pool and damage output, bluegeek is totally correct in what he is saying.. if they can scale missions to suit any number at any level, then there really is no reason why they cant apply the same scaling to end game encounters, with the required number of participants simply being governed by any dual task mechanics.
situations with required roles suck because it limits what you can do. When I do premades, we can just grab whoever and not worry about "needing" a certain class. Sure certain abilities often come in very handy, but IMO, a mission where success or failure comes down to having 3 sets of specific skills... kinda sucks. Having a guy who can tank Armek for example, that's great! But you can beat Armek without it.
in most other mmo's, the team size for any level appropriate encounter is based on role and dps. when asked the question.. will we see a move towards specific roles, ie mmo trinity, with the new skill revamp, @borticuscryptic replied with a very clear no.. "it isnt that kind of game, never has been, never will be" the game is based on dps, with each captain being able to manage their own cc, health etc.
This design decision makes sense though because of how multiplayer in this game revolves around random queues. You can't realistically expect to end up in a balanced team if a Trinity was required. To that point I agree.
I stand by my previous suggestion about adding mark sinks though. Apart from improving queue qualities, improving queue rewards while adding mark sinks that'll give you some really nice stuff would encourage queue re-runs.
I wouldn't mind additional battlezones too. Heck, even add an open BZ with high marks and XP rewards but also make them PVP zones where you can get ganked by other factions.
There's a big difference between how D2 does boss loot and the old STFs. In D2 any loot you got from killing a boss was freely tradable. But in the old STF system you had to get lucky to get the drops you needed yourself.
This is true, however, and I don't want to debate about that. There really shouldn't be any item binding in the first place, maybe aside from quest items but STO doesn't have those in the grand scheme of things. Being unable to sell and trade items is one of the biggest flaws STO has.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Any idea to nerf the already-nerfed STF rewards even further is going to make me want to play them even less. Likewise, adding back in the awful Gozer-backed system where you'd need to play the same STF thousands of times to get your shinies would be ignored, by me, no matter how good the super special drop was. Grinding out my Mk XII MACO set back in the day was obnoxious enough, especially when Gozer kept adding invisible TRIBBLE instant kill torpedoes to everything. Those of you who are espousing his ways should probably remember he got fired for a reason.
Any idea to nerf the already-nerfed STF rewards even further is going to make me want to play them even less. Likewise, adding back in the awful Gozer-backed system where you'd need to play the same STF thousands of times to get your shinies would be ignored, by me, no matter how good the super special drop was. Grinding out my Mk XII MACO set back in the day was obnoxious enough, especially when Gozer kept adding invisible TRIBBLE instant kill torpedoes to everything. Those of you who are espousing his ways should probably remember he got fired for a reason.
Gozer was never fired, he left on his own accord because he got a better offer from another company.
So no, the STF's had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with his departure, and while they were brutal that's what made them a hell of a lot of fun.
And FIY, those "invisible TRIBBLE instant kill torpedoes" are still there, they just don't hit very often with all the FAW spam going around these days.
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid." - Q
Any idea to nerf the already-nerfed STF rewards even further is going to make me want to play them even less. Likewise, adding back in the awful Gozer-backed system where you'd need to play the same STF thousands of times to get your shinies would be ignored, by me, no matter how good the super special drop was. Grinding out my Mk XII MACO set back in the day was obnoxious enough, especially when Gozer kept adding invisible TRIBBLE instant kill torpedoes to everything. Those of you who are espousing his ways should probably remember he got fired for a reason.
(...)
And FIY, those "invisible TRIBBLE instant kill torpedoes" are still there, they just don't hit very often with all the FAW spam going around these days.
Plus they were never intentional to begin with. The "invisitorp" is a stupid myth that is based on a fx-glitch. It's a TS 3 that kills and it is ridiculously beefed up for NPCs (they can take your shields down with HY and TS, player torpedoes don't even do damage to shields in the first place). It is invisible because the game uses far too many effects and animation and the game client will disable visual effects to cut down on processing time or something. For some weird reson the actual weapon effects are disabled before the other useless mumbo-jumbo, but the torpedo spread is not supposed to be invisible.
If you could see the torpedoes they'd still kill you as a torpedo spread cannot miss and you can't outrun it.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Pretty sure the invisitorps were High Yield Plasma's, at least i could counter them back in the day with the Auto Turret pre-order console.
But your right, they were never intentional.
Gozer was the only person at Cryptic who knew how to develop true and challenging endgame content.
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid." - Q
situations with required roles suck because it limits what you can do. When I do premades, we can just grab whoever and not worry about "needing" a certain class. Sure certain abilities often come in very handy, but IMO, a mission where success or failure comes down to having 3 sets of specific skills... kinda sucks. Having a guy who can tank Armek for example, that's great! But you can beat Armek without it.
sorry, i probably should have been clearer lol.. i wasn't really trying to discuss the merits or failings of trinity vs no trinity, my point was simply that there are no roles, and as bort confirmed, there never will be. this means that encounters are balanced around a damage soak over time, with maybe a few click things here and there, and the occasional timer.
with no requirement, or ability, to balance for anything other than damage/time, we are basically looking at up-scaled single player missions, designed to facilitate, or encourage players to group up.. and 5 years ago that worked, and is what every mmo did, albeit most with role mechanics, but things do change, and well, if you can't adapt, you die*
this is why i cant understand the rational behind players arguing against an idea.. any idea.. which could lead to all players being able to play any existing content, independent of poor queue population, at any time they want. and the only reason i can think of for a developer to ignore such ideas, well actually i can think of a few, but i'd like to remain optimistic and keep this post positive. all content was designed to be played.. currently much of it isn't.. something needs to be changed.
*borg when confronted with a TR-116 or non-energy based melee weapon
situations with required roles suck because it limits what you can do. When I do premades, we can just grab whoever and not worry about "needing" a certain class. Sure certain abilities often come in very handy, but IMO, a mission where success or failure comes down to having 3 sets of specific skills... kinda sucks. Having a guy who can tank Armek for example, that's great! But you can beat Armek without it.
sorry, i probably should have been clearer lol.. i wasn't really trying to discuss the merits or failings of trinity vs no trinity, my point was simply that there are no roles, and as bort confirmed, there never will be. this means that encounters are balanced around a damage soak over time, with maybe a few click things here and there, and the occasional timer.
with no requirement, or ability, to balance for anything other than damage/time, we are basically looking at up-scaled single player missions, designed to facilitate, or encourage players to group up.. and 5 years ago that worked, and is what every mmo did, albeit most with role mechanics, but things do change, and well, if you can't adapt, you die*
this is why i cant understand the rational behind players arguing against an idea.. any idea.. which could lead to all players being able to play any existing content, independent of poor queue population, at any time they want.
you say you want to encourage all players to play all STFs.... by adding role requirements?
I just can't see how that would make things more fun.... in case it slipped your mind, what do you think the purpose of the probes and nanites sphere was? Because it looked to me like the idea was to give players an incentive to use CC.
There's a big difference between how D2 does boss loot and the old STFs. In D2 any loot you got from killing a boss was freely tradable. But in the old STF system you had to get lucky to get the drops you needed yourself.
This is true, however, and I don't want to debate about that. There really shouldn't be any item binding in the first place, maybe aside from quest items but STO doesn't have those in the grand scheme of things. Being unable to sell and trade items is one of the biggest flaws STO has.
I like the binding concept STO uses. Things got crazy in D2 when every item could be resold no matter how often you used it.
situations with required roles suck because it limits what you can do. When I do premades, we can just grab whoever and not worry about "needing" a certain class. Sure certain abilities often come in very handy, but IMO, a mission where success or failure comes down to having 3 sets of specific skills... kinda sucks. Having a guy who can tank Armek for example, that's great! But you can beat Armek without it.
sorry, i probably should have been clearer lol.. i wasn't really trying to discuss the merits or failings of trinity vs no trinity, my point was simply that there are no roles, and as bort confirmed, there never will be. this means that encounters are balanced around a damage soak over time, with maybe a few click things here and there, and the occasional timer.
with no requirement, or ability, to balance for anything other than damage/time, we are basically looking at up-scaled single player missions, designed to facilitate, or encourage players to group up.. and 5 years ago that worked, and is what every mmo did, albeit most with role mechanics, but things do change, and well, if you can't adapt, you die*
this is why i cant understand the rational behind players arguing against an idea.. any idea.. which could lead to all players being able to play any existing content, independent of poor queue population, at any time they want.
you say you want to encourage all players to play all STFs.... by adding role requirements?
I just can't see how that would make things more fun.... in case it slipped your mind, what do you think the purpose of the probes and nanites sphere was? Because it looked to me like the idea was to give players an incentive to use CC.
There's a big difference between how D2 does boss loot and the old STFs. In D2 any loot you got from killing a boss was freely tradable. But in the old STF system you had to get lucky to get the drops you needed yourself.
This is true, however, and I don't want to debate about that. There really shouldn't be any item binding in the first place, maybe aside from quest items but STO doesn't have those in the grand scheme of things. Being unable to sell and trade items is one of the biggest flaws STO has.
I like the binding concept STO uses. Things got crazy in D2 when every item could be resold no matter how often you used it.
do some people just pick a few words at random from someones post, then string them together into something they find objectionable and then create an argument against that?
please read the 1st paragraph again, and then explain to me how you managed to get "i want set roles in the encounters" from it. to save you some time, a quick word from the author.. "that isn't what i was saying" my point was - end game encounters are just up-scaled missions, and because there is no role requirements, there is no sensible reason why they shouldn't allow us to queue up for it with less than 5 players if we wish. and that i cant understand why players would argue against that idea.
also, making them more fun, how exactly would you define or quantify fun in this regard, and how would they implement more fun? they are what they are, so i think the points being discussed fall under -
1) how can they make them more attractive to players?
2) how can they make them more accessible to players?
and from cryptics perspective, as they are constantly inside a planned development cycle, the reality will probably mean that, whatever they decide to do, if anything, will be limited to tweaking and shuffling, rather than any radical changes.
Most of the queues are dead because the missions themselves are not very much fun. Cryptic sold us an insane amount of power creep post Delta Rising, allowing a very small percentage of the player base to speed run or solo a lot of team content.
Cryptic's solution to a problem which they caused is to put a time gate in all new pve content. No one likes a mission where you have to sit around for a set amount of time and do repetitive task so those new queues never get played after people max out their reputation and get the gear they want.
The solution is for them to take a step back, see which queues are popular and try to create new content with that formula in mind. Give us objectives to complete instead of timers. They need to realize that speed runs have been a part of all games and should be used as a tool to keep things interesting not as something they need to stop.
I would also like to see them allow us to start all private queues with any number of players, up to the limit of course. If they remove the timers which just create false difficulty, attempting to solo or two man content is very fun and challenging. It isn't something that people would do all the time and remove people from the queues because it just flat out takes longer and is a horrible reward for time and effort spent. If I was dumb enough to go try to solo HSE, I should be easily allowed to fail without having to find 4 people to warp out for me.
In short, give people the tools to have fun and your game will be popular and full of players. Try to limit and control the way people play, you will find yourself out of a job.
I disagree, the queues are fine and many of them are actually fun.
But the problem is the rewards simply aren't there, there's no real sense of accomplishment or character progression from playing them, which is a core aspect of an MMORPG.
Back in the day before the Reputation system, having a full set of Elite Honor Guard/MACO/Omega gear actually meant something and was a symbol of achievement.
But unfortunately Cryptic caved to the self-entitled whiners who wanted the same shinies but were completely unwilling to put in the effort and now any monkey that farms ISA can get it.
Heck... STF gear isn't even a reward anymore... its something you have to "buy" and it costs a lot of dilithium.
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid." - Q
All cryptic needs to do to fix their queues is take a look at STO's predecessor, which has healthy queues despite having a mere fraction of STO's population.
Meet Champions Online.
CO's queues usually pop in less than a minute, and you really only have something of a wait during the late hours. There's a daily quest for completing 3 simple queues, which rotate in fairly often, and another daily quest for completing a more elaborate queued event which rotates once per week.
Simple? bwwhahaaahaaa!!!! Okay some of them are. But you go fight Gravitar and then tell me you'd expect random PUGs to live....
Actually part of why queues are still active in CO is the way the rewards work. Some of them reward marks, but the real prizes are often random drops. For example, Gravitar's costume parts.... But also they often reward the equivalent of EC.
The way rampage rewards work were part of what convinced me to quit CO and move on to a game where I don't have to gamble for a tiny chance to progress. STO actually rewards me for my effort every time I succeed at a queue. I make progress towards my goal every time.
You want to know what killed the queues? THE BREACH.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
I have another solution. Introduce new unique epic quality space and ground sets that have a very small probability to drop from a certain set of queues. For example:
epic mk xiv deflector
-> 0,1% chance to drop from any normal Borg space queue
-> 1% chance to drop from any advanced Borg space queue
-> 1,5% chance to drop from any elite Borg space queue
epic mk xiv impulse engine
-> Undine space queues (same chances for normal/advanced/elite as above)
epic mk xiv warp/singularity core
-> Vaadwaur space queues (same chances for normal/advanced/elite as above)
epic mk xiv shield
-> Terran space queues (same chances for normal/advanced/elite as above)
The same could be applied to ground queues. I guarantee you. With a random drop reward system like this the queues would be full again.
I agree. Make it like the old STFs pre-rep, adapted to the new situation.
Rep gear at mk xii space and ground is available the current way. Mk XIII or Mk XIV elite or "veteran" gear with buffed up stats should be available from playing the queues only, and each one of them. Veteran Omega ground gear available from Borg ground, weapon, armour and shield, same for space. Veteran dyson gear (would need a ground queue), Iconian and so on.
And yes, you may not get it running hundreds of those, some get it at their third run - that's a game. RNG, item drops. Deal with it. It's fun to try to get it and if it isn't the game isn't fun to you, take a break.
TRIBBLE that. That original system was total garbage and when Cryptic did away with it, I was happy. There was literally nothing good with that old drop system.
Someone understands! I guess I'm not the only person who wasn't stupidly lucky with salvage back in the day.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
I have another solution. Introduce new unique epic quality space and ground sets that have a very small probability to drop from a certain set of queues. For example:
epic mk xiv deflector
-> 0,1% chance to drop from any normal Borg space queue
-> 1% chance to drop from any advanced Borg space queue
-> 1,5% chance to drop from any elite Borg space queue
epic mk xiv impulse engine
-> Undine space queues (same chances for normal/advanced/elite as above)
epic mk xiv warp/singularity core
-> Vaadwaur space queues (same chances for normal/advanced/elite as above)
epic mk xiv shield
-> Terran space queues (same chances for normal/advanced/elite as above)
The same could be applied to ground queues. I guarantee you. With a random drop reward system like this the queues would be full again.
I agree. Make it like the old STFs pre-rep, adapted to the new situation.
Rep gear at mk xii space and ground is available the current way. Mk XIII or Mk XIV elite or "veteran" gear with buffed up stats should be available from playing the queues only, and each one of them. Veteran Omega ground gear available from Borg ground, weapon, armour and shield, same for space. Veteran dyson gear (would need a ground queue), Iconian and so on.
And yes, you may not get it running hundreds of those, some get it at their third run - that's a game. RNG, item drops. Deal with it. It's fun to try to get it and if it isn't the game isn't fun to you, take a break.
TRIBBLE that. That original system was total garbage and when Cryptic did away with it, I was happy. There was literally nothing good with that old drop system.
Someone understands! I guess I'm not the only person who wasn't stupidly lucky with salvage back in the day.
I wasn't either, it took me 4 months to get my first completed ground set and costume unlock.
But the euphoria when I got that final drop was well worth the wait.
Buying gear for a glorified store brings absolutely no satisfaction whatsoever.
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid." - Q
I like the binding concept STO uses. Things got crazy in D2 when every item could be resold no matter how often you used it.
Nobody says there can't be fine tuning. There could be some sort of degradation of stats taking place if you trade an item after you used it - it's still good but not as good as if you'd found it yourself. But if we only go with absolutes I'd prefer a D2 free-tradeable-loot system to an overrestrictive binding of items. I'd be okay with adding a "used" status/mod to items like I suggested before but it doesn't really need that. Over time the market will change, more and more items will appear but Cryptic would also have to supply more items in the first place.
The main difference is Diablo II has a loot system generating literally infinite amounts of loot. Items have a drop rarity which influences the number of boni they carry. All of these boni have a range and then there's a lot of base items in the first place. You can find a blue ("uncommon"/magic) short sword or pair of boots with one or two modifiers in a range, like "x% faster attack speed, +x% damage against enemy y" or "x% faster running, x% chance to find magic items". With only those two boni and the range you can get a large number of items already. Now add a level of rarity, more mods that literally influence every aspect of your character from hitpoints, hitchance, minimum damage, maximum damage, health regeneration, faster caste rate, walking speed over life and mana leech or unique abilities not inherent to your class and a lot more and you have a huge amount of loot with only those two types of items. And now look at how many boots and short swords there are in addition to all the other weapon and item types.
STO on the other hoof is literally like playing with Duplos in comparison. Items only come with set modifiers, rarity influences how many mods but never more than four. [acc] always adds the same amount and we have rather limited item variety in the first place and it'll become even less since they want to merge consoles under the new skill system. Of course ou cannot translate loot systems 1:1 like this, but STO is severly lacking.
(...)
Buying gear for a glorified store brings absolutely no satisfaction whatsoever.
This. Of course it is nice once youcan affort the stuff and you have your build finalized, but afterwards you're done. With a D2-esque loot system you always fine tune and make the best out of what you get and maybe at one point you complete your dream set, but the next run maybe gives you another item that'll even improve certain spects further.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
There's a big difference between how D2 does boss loot and the old STFs. In D2 any loot you got from killing a boss was freely tradable. But in the old STF system you had to get lucky to get the drops you needed yourself.
This is true, however, and I don't want to debate about that. There really shouldn't be any item binding in the first place, maybe aside from quest items but STO doesn't have those in the grand scheme of things. Being unable to sell and trade items is one of the biggest flaws STO has.
I like the binding concept STO uses. Things got crazy in D2 when every item could be resold no matter how often you used it.
Ehh, one could make any hypothetical new 'Tech' tradable, kind of like ship or pet boxes before you open them up.
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
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I wished for the RNG to be removed. Rule of thumb, careful of what you wish for.
And yet it works well enough and attracts enough people that the vast majority and all the most popular MMORPG's use that very system.
And back in the day when STO had this system too with its "Tech Drops" I never had problems finding people who wanted to run the missions. Sure it dropped off a little and then leveled off, but once the reputation system was introduced its been nothing but a constant downward trend.
While it isn't for everyone clearly it does something right.(And quite frankly, all the content in the game shouldn't be for everyone.)
Possibly something to do with there being no alternative for obtaining rep gear at the time. Not exactly a ringing endorsement.
My character Tsin'xing
I liked them too but will never come back to STO so why talk about it?
There is a reason why they took it down. Dsthal wanted to cater to the whiners at that time and ever since this MMO listen mostly to those who whine the most. Remember how they "fixed" dilithium/marks/EC drops from the foundry or "fixed" the rate of gaining SPEC points due to DR then nerfed it to death Zombie ground battlezone and even Argala?
Who knows if peeps keep complaining long enough they might reverse it again...where is that guy who keeps writing about PvE queus being "dead"?. Long shot but realistically speaking doubtful if they will ever reverse that kind of random reward system from the past. Nice to reminisce how it was though
If they design a mission that requires 5 people because you need 5 different people doing 5 different things, and it's fun to play, I have no quarrel with the limit because it's not arbitrary. If the only reason you need 5 people is because you're getting zerg rushed, that's not a good reason. There's a difference.
exactly this ^^
in most other mmo's, the team size for any level appropriate encounter is based on role and dps. when asked the question.. will we see a move towards specific roles, ie mmo trinity, with the new skill revamp, @borticuscryptic replied with a very clear no.. "it isnt that kind of game, never has been, never will be" the game is based on dps, with each captain being able to manage their own cc, health etc.
with all encounters being set up to last an avg time of whatnot, either by setting a timer with a wave mechanic, or directly up scaling the health pool and damage output, bluegeek is totally correct in what he is saying.. if they can scale missions to suit any number at any level, then there really is no reason why they cant apply the same scaling to end game encounters, with the required number of participants simply being governed by any dual task mechanics.
My character Tsin'xing
This design decision makes sense though because of how multiplayer in this game revolves around random queues. You can't realistically expect to end up in a balanced team if a Trinity was required. To that point I agree.
I stand by my previous suggestion about adding mark sinks though. Apart from improving queue qualities, improving queue rewards while adding mark sinks that'll give you some really nice stuff would encourage queue re-runs.
I wouldn't mind additional battlezones too. Heck, even add an open BZ with high marks and XP rewards but also make them PVP zones where you can get ganked by other factions.
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This is true, however, and I don't want to debate about that. There really shouldn't be any item binding in the first place, maybe aside from quest items but STO doesn't have those in the grand scheme of things. Being unable to sell and trade items is one of the biggest flaws STO has.
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Gozer was never fired, he left on his own accord because he got a better offer from another company.
So no, the STF's had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with his departure, and while they were brutal that's what made them a hell of a lot of fun.
And FIY, those "invisible TRIBBLE instant kill torpedoes" are still there, they just don't hit very often with all the FAW spam going around these days.
Plus they were never intentional to begin with. The "invisitorp" is a stupid myth that is based on a fx-glitch. It's a TS 3 that kills and it is ridiculously beefed up for NPCs (they can take your shields down with HY and TS, player torpedoes don't even do damage to shields in the first place). It is invisible because the game uses far too many effects and animation and the game client will disable visual effects to cut down on processing time or something. For some weird reson the actual weapon effects are disabled before the other useless mumbo-jumbo, but the torpedo spread is not supposed to be invisible.
If you could see the torpedoes they'd still kill you as a torpedo spread cannot miss and you can't outrun it.
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But your right, they were never intentional.
Gozer was the only person at Cryptic who knew how to develop true and challenging endgame content.
sorry, i probably should have been clearer lol.. i wasn't really trying to discuss the merits or failings of trinity vs no trinity, my point was simply that there are no roles, and as bort confirmed, there never will be. this means that encounters are balanced around a damage soak over time, with maybe a few click things here and there, and the occasional timer.
with no requirement, or ability, to balance for anything other than damage/time, we are basically looking at up-scaled single player missions, designed to facilitate, or encourage players to group up.. and 5 years ago that worked, and is what every mmo did, albeit most with role mechanics, but things do change, and well, if you can't adapt, you die*
this is why i cant understand the rational behind players arguing against an idea.. any idea.. which could lead to all players being able to play any existing content, independent of poor queue population, at any time they want. and the only reason i can think of for a developer to ignore such ideas, well actually i can think of a few, but i'd like to remain optimistic and keep this post positive. all content was designed to be played.. currently much of it isn't.. something needs to be changed.
*borg when confronted with a TR-116 or non-energy based melee weapon
I just can't see how that would make things more fun.... in case it slipped your mind, what do you think the purpose of the probes and nanites sphere was? Because it looked to me like the idea was to give players an incentive to use CC. I like the binding concept STO uses. Things got crazy in D2 when every item could be resold no matter how often you used it.
My character Tsin'xing
do some people just pick a few words at random from someones post, then string them together into something they find objectionable and then create an argument against that?
please read the 1st paragraph again, and then explain to me how you managed to get "i want set roles in the encounters" from it. to save you some time, a quick word from the author.. "that isn't what i was saying" my point was - end game encounters are just up-scaled missions, and because there is no role requirements, there is no sensible reason why they shouldn't allow us to queue up for it with less than 5 players if we wish. and that i cant understand why players would argue against that idea.
also, making them more fun, how exactly would you define or quantify fun in this regard, and how would they implement more fun? they are what they are, so i think the points being discussed fall under -
1) how can they make them more attractive to players?
2) how can they make them more accessible to players?
and from cryptics perspective, as they are constantly inside a planned development cycle, the reality will probably mean that, whatever they decide to do, if anything, will be limited to tweaking and shuffling, rather than any radical changes.
My character Tsin'xing
Cryptic's solution to a problem which they caused is to put a time gate in all new pve content. No one likes a mission where you have to sit around for a set amount of time and do repetitive task so those new queues never get played after people max out their reputation and get the gear they want.
The solution is for them to take a step back, see which queues are popular and try to create new content with that formula in mind. Give us objectives to complete instead of timers. They need to realize that speed runs have been a part of all games and should be used as a tool to keep things interesting not as something they need to stop.
I would also like to see them allow us to start all private queues with any number of players, up to the limit of course. If they remove the timers which just create false difficulty, attempting to solo or two man content is very fun and challenging. It isn't something that people would do all the time and remove people from the queues because it just flat out takes longer and is a horrible reward for time and effort spent. If I was dumb enough to go try to solo HSE, I should be easily allowed to fail without having to find 4 people to warp out for me.
In short, give people the tools to have fun and your game will be popular and full of players. Try to limit and control the way people play, you will find yourself out of a job.
But the problem is the rewards simply aren't there, there's no real sense of accomplishment or character progression from playing them, which is a core aspect of an MMORPG.
Back in the day before the Reputation system, having a full set of Elite Honor Guard/MACO/Omega gear actually meant something and was a symbol of achievement.
But unfortunately Cryptic caved to the self-entitled whiners who wanted the same shinies but were completely unwilling to put in the effort and now any monkey that farms ISA can get it.
Heck... STF gear isn't even a reward anymore... its something you have to "buy" and it costs a lot of dilithium.
The way rampage rewards work were part of what convinced me to quit CO and move on to a game where I don't have to gamble for a tiny chance to progress. STO actually rewards me for my effort every time I succeed at a queue. I make progress towards my goal every time.
You want to know what killed the queues? THE BREACH.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
Someone understands! I guess I'm not the only person who wasn't stupidly lucky with salvage back in the day.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
I wasn't either, it took me 4 months to get my first completed ground set and costume unlock.
But the euphoria when I got that final drop was well worth the wait.
Buying gear for a glorified store brings absolutely no satisfaction whatsoever.
Nobody says there can't be fine tuning. There could be some sort of degradation of stats taking place if you trade an item after you used it - it's still good but not as good as if you'd found it yourself. But if we only go with absolutes I'd prefer a D2 free-tradeable-loot system to an overrestrictive binding of items. I'd be okay with adding a "used" status/mod to items like I suggested before but it doesn't really need that. Over time the market will change, more and more items will appear but Cryptic would also have to supply more items in the first place.
The main difference is Diablo II has a loot system generating literally infinite amounts of loot. Items have a drop rarity which influences the number of boni they carry. All of these boni have a range and then there's a lot of base items in the first place. You can find a blue ("uncommon"/magic) short sword or pair of boots with one or two modifiers in a range, like "x% faster attack speed, +x% damage against enemy y" or "x% faster running, x% chance to find magic items". With only those two boni and the range you can get a large number of items already. Now add a level of rarity, more mods that literally influence every aspect of your character from hitpoints, hitchance, minimum damage, maximum damage, health regeneration, faster caste rate, walking speed over life and mana leech or unique abilities not inherent to your class and a lot more and you have a huge amount of loot with only those two types of items. And now look at how many boots and short swords there are in addition to all the other weapon and item types.
STO on the other hoof is literally like playing with Duplos in comparison. Items only come with set modifiers, rarity influences how many mods but never more than four. [acc] always adds the same amount and we have rather limited item variety in the first place and it'll become even less since they want to merge consoles under the new skill system. Of course ou cannot translate loot systems 1:1 like this, but STO is severly lacking.
This. Of course it is nice once youcan affort the stuff and you have your build finalized, but afterwards you're done. With a D2-esque loot system you always fine tune and make the best out of what you get and maybe at one point you complete your dream set, but the next run maybe gives you another item that'll even improve certain spects further.
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Ehh, one could make any hypothetical new 'Tech' tradable, kind of like ship or pet boxes before you open them up.
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.