The floor (and maybe the walls too) -- is that... Solanae architecture there? Are those just recycled textures and models or a hint at some level of Iconian involvement?
Considering they've gone into isolation in that sphere at the end of Midnight, maybe they are represented by their servitors and the Accords are signed on a Solanae base at a neutral location?
Well, I can see a little influence in the floor design and the round doors in the second picture. But the amphitheathre in the first basically screams Starfleet to me.
With the Iconian War over, the Alliance still holds the Solanae and Jenolan Dyson Spheres. So by the 28th century, Starfleet would have had 300 years to study them and maybe incorporate some Iconian know-how into how they build starbases. That seems the most likely explanation to me.
There's really no point for the Iconians to get involved with the Temporal Accords, since they can't travel through time. (Although that would arguably make them a great neutral party in the mattter as you suggested.) But considering L'Miren said that it would likely be a millenium until the Iconians would rejoin the galaxy, I'm more inclined to believe that they're sitting on Iconia and don't want anything to do with this.
There's really no point for the Iconians to get involved with the Temporal Accords, since they can't travel through time. (Although that would arguably make them a great neutral party in the mattter as you suggested.) But considering L'Miren said that it would likely be a millenium until the Iconians would rejoin the galaxy, I'm more inclined to believe that they're sitting on Iconia and don't want anything to do with this.
On the contrary, in my opinion. True, the Iconians can't do time travel, but that doesn't mean that fledgling time traveling civilizations would not affect them. I think that alone gives them the exact reason why they would support the creation of something that would regulate the activity of time travelers. If you don't have the ability to watch over a certain domain, support those who can -- by being their host and giving them a place where they can discuss it, for example.
You may be right, though.
"Ad astra audacter eamus in alis fidelium."
-
"To boldly go to the stars on the wings of the faithful."
There's really no point for the Iconians to get involved with the Temporal Accords, since they can't travel through time. (Although that would arguably make them a great neutral party in the mattter as you suggested.) But considering L'Miren said that it would likely be a millenium until the Iconians would rejoin the galaxy, I'm more inclined to believe that they're sitting on Iconia and don't want anything to do with this.
On the contrary, in my opinion. True, the Iconians can't do time travel, but that doesn't mean that fledgling time traveling civilizations would not affect them. I think that alone gives them the exact reason why they would support the creation of something that would regulate the activity of time travelers. If you don't have the ability to watch over a certain domain, support those who can -- by being their host and giving them a place where they can discuss it, for example.
You may be right, though.
Alright, you do have a point. Upon further reflection, time travel technology is the one thing the Iconians can't guard against. So they would have an interest in other species regulating that sort of thing, maybe even enough to come out of their self-imposed exile.
I still don't expect to see an Iconian in the mission, and the architecture in the first pic looks more Starfleet to me than anything else. But maybe there'll be Herald NPC in attendance, just to observe the signing on their behalf.
The floor (and maybe the walls too) -- is that... Solanae architecture there? Are those just recycled textures and models or a hint at some level of Iconian involvement?
Considering they've gone into isolation in that sphere at the end of Midnight, maybe they are represented by their servitors and the Accords are signed on a Solanae base at a neutral location?
Don't think so, but it would've been nice if that happened. Although, when I look at the second screenshot with the transporter, the hallway leading to another room looks suspiciously from Dyson Sphere modeling. Including the shape and textures of the walls on the first and second screenshot. So I'm guessing that the Federation is using reverse-engineered Dyson/Iconian technology now... in some way.
Post edited by alchevsk1992 on
"Our history, our past, our present and our future is now forever changed. All we can do is preserve what is left and continue onwards. This is not a surrender nor defeat, we will continue the fight. This is our last hope, our last chance... for victory."
Vlasek D. Lasor - 4.19.3580 Star Trek Online: Foundry Storyline Series
I was hoping the Iconians wouldn't just be forgotten about and actually end up playing a role sometime later in the storyline, I think what would be especially cool would be meeting them again in the far future! "Hey it's me, the Other! How are things going on new Iconia, L'Miren?"
In other words, "Butterfly". Which brings us to the dawning realization (see what I did there?) that "Butterfly" had to happen to generate the right mindset for the Temporal Accords that lead to Daniels and Walker. And there's that pesky predestination again. Looked at in a different light, Walker or somebody would have interfered with using the Krenim weapon if it derailed their future. Since it was even probably necessary to their future, they didn't. So was it really pointless?
Yes, actually it was completely pointless, because anybody with even an ounce of common sense and in-universe historical knowledge ought to be able to look what always happens every single solitary timeanybody time-travels, that being a complete and utter clusterf*ck that has to be fixed at great expense in time and lives, and would therefore react like these people: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olEbwhWDYwM
But no, because somebody upstairs got a bug up his TRIBBLE that engaging in a Temporal Cold War was a brilliant idea where they could come out ahead in the end, they gleefully ignore the countless precedents saying don't f*cking touch it, and we're left picking up the pieces.
How's this for a change in the timestream: the races of this century, NOT the future and by God definitely not the past, all get together and say HELL NO to time travel. Boom, problem solved before it starts: no need for anybody to become a temporal agent because nobody's time-traveling and f*cking sh*t up. But that would require some actual competence on the part of the characters, and after seeing the TRIBBLE they pulled during the last story arc (Zapp Kagran deserves to be disemboweled for incompetence for the way he single-handedly lost the Iconian War), I think the chances of that happening are slim to none.
I really don't understand the hostility.
The Temporal Accords are an attempt to get everyone on the same page and say NO to trying to change history. But since time travel is a thing in the Star Trek universe, inevitably some goon decides to cheat and change history in their favor and ignore all of the horror stories of messed up timelines. The megalomaniacs responsible assure themselves that THEY won't make those kinds of mistakes.
And since nobody in their right minds wants to let that go, sorry, we have temporal agents working to prevent those kinds of changes.
You don't have to like time travel stories. But TOS opened the genie's bottle, TNG/DS9/VOY cheerfully poked the genie every chance they got, and ENT went ahead and smashed the bottle into a million pieces. Because time travel writers assure themselves that THEY won't make the same mistakes their predecessors did. Only a few actually make it work.
Like I said, the timestream's a harsh and fickle b****.
"Unidentified vessel. This is Commander Spock, acting captain of the Federation starship enterprise. I have some familiarity with time travel. It is logical to conclude you are attempting to return to your own time using the vortex. We will attempt to assist you." Spock knows the hazards of time manipulation. Be like Spock.
Player and forumite formerly known as FEELTHETHUNDER
Agent: I'm bringing you to the future to witness the Temporal Accords' signing ceremony because of your role in history! Captain Kanril Eleya: I'm curious. What, specifically, do your files say about me? Agent: They called you a great captain who-- Kanril: No, they didn't. They called me a disruptive, disrespectful, insubordinate pain in the TRIBBLE who's good at winning battles. They also probably said I'm always armed. (pulls knife) And you're under arrest. Agent: Arrest? For what? Kanril: Well, let's see. You're from the 28th century, but this is 2410, which means you have no valid credentials. So I'm charging you with felony impersonation of an officer of the Federation Starfleet. Agent: ...You're crazy. Kanril: And that wasn't in my file? Please tell me you're resisting arrest, I need the practice. Security to the ready room. Get this moron out of my sight. XO: Temporal Investigations is going to raise hell. Kanril: Let them. Unlike that TRIBBLE I'm actually upholding the Temporal Prime Directive.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Agent: I'm bringing you to the future to witness the Temporal Accords' signing ceremony because of your role in history! Captain Kanril Eleya: I'm curious. What, specifically, do your files say about me? Agent: They called you a great captain who-- Kanril: No, they didn't. They called me a disruptive, disrespectful, insubordinate pain in the TRIBBLE who's good at winning battles. They also probably said I'm always armed. (pulls knife) And you're under arrest. Agent: Arrest? For what? Kanril: Well, let's see. You're from the 28th century, but this is 2410, which means you have no valid credentials. So I'm charging you with felony impersonation of an officer of the Federation Starfleet. Agent: ...You're crazy. Kanril: And that wasn't in my file? Please tell me you're resisting arrest, I need the practice. Security to the ready room. Get this moron out of my sight. XO: Temporal Investigations is going to raise hell. Kanril: Let them. Unlike that TRIBBLE I'm actually upholding the Temporal Prime Directive.
Here's the kicker, what if you knowing is how the future unfolds?
Agent: I'm bringing you to the future to witness the Temporal Accords' signing ceremony because of your role in history! Captain Kanril Eleya: I'm curious. What, specifically, do your files say about me? Agent: They called you a great captain who-- Kanril: No, they didn't. They called me a disruptive, disrespectful, insubordinate pain in the TRIBBLE who's good at winning battles. They also probably said I'm always armed. (pulls knife) And you're under arrest. Agent: Arrest? For what? Kanril: Well, let's see. You're from the 28th century, but this is 2410, which means you have no valid credentials. So I'm charging you with felony impersonation of an officer of the Federation Starfleet. Agent: ...You're crazy. Kanril: And that wasn't in my file? Please tell me you're resisting arrest, I need the practice. Security to the ready room. Get this moron out of my sight. XO: Temporal Investigations is going to raise hell. Kanril: Let them. Unlike that TRIBBLE I'm actually upholding the Temporal Prime Directive.
Here's the kicker, what if you knowing is how the future unfolds?
Actually, that's Eleya summarizing her file from her present day. Notice she cut him off before he actually told her anything meaningful about her future.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
If it makes you feel any better, except for "Enterprise" and the Temporal Cold War almost every Star Trek time travel plot was a quick little arc and then never mentioned again.
Oh? What about that incident where Ambassador Spock and a Romulan monster-ship got sucked into the 23rd century, resulting in an alternate timeline that persists to this day? You know, the one where Vulcan got destroyed and the 23rd-century Federation now has personal interstellar-range transporters and an immortality serum...
Huh. It was central to the founding on the new Romulan Republic, and I'm pretty sure there's a story arc about the supernova that lead to Spock's disappearance. I wonder why no time agents looked into the incident; did it somehow slip under their radar, so to speak? Or is time meddling permitted if the meddler is an involuntary time traveler?
If it makes you feel any better, except for "Enterprise" and the Temporal Cold War almost every Star Trek time travel plot was a quick little arc and then never mentioned again.
Oh? What about that incident where Ambassador Spock and a Romulan monster-ship got sucked into the 23rd century, resulting in an alternate timeline that persists to this day? You know, the one where Vulcan got destroyed and the 23rd-century Federation now has personal interstellar-range transporters and an immortality serum...
Granted, but it's also sort of implied that this occurs in an alternate universe, not just an altered timeline. There's a subtle distinction, but it's there.
Certainly no future Time Cops have appeared to suggest that this 'little' aberration affects the STO universe in any way and needs any intervention. Nobody on this side of things really has any knowledge of any historical changes wrought in what we all call the "JJVerse". All we know on this side is that Spock disappeared and that's the end of it where STO is concerned.
My character's personal timeline is not 'entangled' in any way shape or form to events unfolding in the JJVerse. So from my point of view, nothing that happens over there affects me at all. The temporal agents in the STO universe might be aware of that timeline, but they're not going to touch it because the second there is a two-way connection between the two they become interactive and 'entangled'.
Again, I'm going to defer back to the guy whom I consider to be an expert on time travel in Star Trek... Christopher L. Bennett. There are some principles that follow from his DTI novels and I believe those principles are relevant here.
The first rule of temporal intervention is 'do no harm (to the timeline)'. You absolutely do not tinker with events any more than you absolutely have to. You allow events to unfold naturally unless they're a threat to the timeline. You do not tell upstream events to downstream agents unless it's necessary to protect the timeline. You interact with downstream history as little as possible and do not interfere with major events or predestination paradoxes no matter how bad they are; if that's the way history is supposed to flow, you leave it alone. You resist the temptation to use time travel to solve a problem when there's an alternate way to do it. (Most of which the STO storyline is pretty much violating... Kal Dano told more than he should and so apparently does Captain Walker).
Why? I can point back to "Butterfly" again. Ripple effects and unintended and unforseeable consequences. If you have to make a ripple, you make it as small as possible and hope history smooths it over. You certainly do not make waves and expect that all will be well.
I don't think time travel should really be the next frontier in STO, for all of these reasons and those expressed by the likes of angrytarg and starswordc. The implication that time travel becomes commonplace is a really bad idea. But again, ENT opened the door and then brought the house down on top of it where time travel is concerned so the precedent has already been set.
If it makes you feel any better, except for "Enterprise" and the Temporal Cold War almost every Star Trek time travel plot was a quick little arc and then never mentioned again.
Oh? What about that incident where Ambassador Spock and a Romulan monster-ship got sucked into the 23rd century, resulting in an alternate timeline that persists to this day? You know, the one where Vulcan got destroyed and the 23rd-century Federation now has personal interstellar-range transporters and an immortality serum...
Granted, but it's also sort of implied that this occurs in an alternate universe, not just an altered timeline. There's a subtle distinction, but it's there.
Certainly no future Time Cops have appeared to suggest that this 'little' aberration affects the STO universe in any way and needs any intervention. Nobody on this side of things really has any knowledge of any historical changes wrought in what we all call the "JJVerse". All we know on this side is that Spock disappeared and that's the end of it where STO is concerned.
My character's personal timeline is not 'entangled' in any way shape or form to events unfolding in the JJVerse. So from my point of view, nothing that happens over there affects me at all. The temporal agents in the STO universe might be aware of that timeline, but they're not going to touch it because the second there is a two-way connection between the two they become interactive and 'entangled'.
Again, I'm going to defer back to the guy whom I consider to be an expert on time travel in Star Trek... Christopher L. Bennett. There are some principles that follow from his DTI novels and I believe those principles are relevant here.
The first rule of temporal intervention is 'do no harm (to the timeline)'. You absolutely do not tinker with events any more than you absolutely have to. You allow events to unfold naturally unless they're a threat to the timeline. You do not tell upstream events to downstream agents unless it's necessary to protect the timeline. You interact with downstream history as little as possible and do not interfere with major events or predestination paradoxes no matter how bad they are; if that's the way history is supposed to flow, you leave it alone. You resist the temptation to use time travel to solve a problem when there's an alternate way to do it. (Most of which the STO storyline is pretty much violating... Kal Dano told more than he should and so apparently does Captain Walker).
Why? I can point back to "Butterfly" again. Ripple effects and unintended and unforseeable consequences. If you have to make a ripple, you make it as small as possible and hope history smooths it over. You certainly do not make waves and expect that all will be well.
I don't think time travel should really be the next frontier in STO, for all of these reasons and those expressed by the likes of angrytarg and starswordc. The implication that time travel becomes commonplace is a really bad idea. But again, ENT opened the door and then brought the house down on top of it where time travel is concerned so the precedent has already been set.
Honestly, the biggest problem with "Butt-fly", besides it being forced on you by Captain Zapp Kagran jumping the gun on the Krenim weapon's construction and trying to zerg rush the freaking Herald Sphere (protip: human wave tactics don't work against orders-of-magnitude larger forces, especially when they have an entrenched position; that was the absolute stupidest plan in Star Trek history), was that it tried to reuse the plot of "Year of Hell" without taking into account what made the plot actually work. What made "Year of Hell" work was that the ripples all followed logically from the action made, even if the characters didn't predict the effects. The examples I can remember without looking it up on Memory Alpha:
Erasing the Rilnar at the start of that debacle caused the Krenim Imperium to collapse due to the lack of Krenim-Rilnar interbreeding adding an immunity gene to the Krenim genome (a la Neanderthals and Cro-Magnons). Also, key point, it had no effect outside the Rilnars' and Krenims' vicinity. LOGICAL.
Erasing a comet to make Voyager take a different course disrupts the formation of life on several planets (Star Trek sez "Relativity? Never heard of it!") because it didn't deposit amino acids (which is not actually how it worked on Earth, by the way, though it was a credible hypothesis at the time of the show). LOGICAL.
Making Annorax's dickship erase itself reverts everything to square one because if it never existed it could never have changed history. LOGICAL, if convoluted.
Contrast "TRIBBLE$-fly". Simulations of erasing the Iconians entirely? Yeah, that I can see having dramatic effects like having Vulcans replace Klingons as the 'verse's archetypical proud warrior race. But see the logical disconnect when they actually use the doomsday weapon:
Erasing an Iconian outpost prevents the Enterprise-D and IRW Haakona from discovering it, which means the Iconians don't get alerted to our existence, which prevents Hobus, which... causes the Borg to invade ch'Rihan from the Delta Quadrant? TRIBBLE$ PULL.
Erasing the Borg transwarp conduit prevents the restored ch'Rihan from being invaded, which... causes the entire timeline to revert making Hobus to happen again, and erases the proto-Sphere Builders from history? TRIBBLE$ PULL.
I'm all right with time travel stories, as long as they're rare and the effects follow logically. "Yesterday's Enterprise" managed it, even helped explain how the Federation managed to keep the Khitomer Accords together as long as it did despite Klingon overcompensation for their shortcomings (loss of Enterprise to Romulans -> Romulans become a bogeyman, a la the Dominion). DS9 did it repeatedly and quite well, for example in "Past Tense" where, faced with the prospect of having changed a watershed event in American history, Sisko inserted himself into a dead man's role and ensured the event would play out properly. Chuck Sonnenburg theorized that, sans Gabriel Bell, the US turned into something more like the Terran Empire's precursor states, meaning a more extensive nuclear exchange in World War III, meaning maybe Zefram Cochrane got incinerated before he could invent warp drive.
Hell, even Doctor Who managed it for the most part, at least during Russell T. Davies' run (I haven't watched past the middle of new series 4).
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Honestly, the biggest problem with "Butt-fly", besides it being forced on you by Captain Zapp Kagran jumping the gun on the Krenim weapon's construction and trying to zerg rush the freaking Herald Sphere (protip: human wave tactics don't work against orders-of-magnitude larger forces, especially when they have an entrenched position; that was the absolute stupidest plan in Star Trek history),
With the benefit of absolute clarity in hindsight... Kagran is like WWI generals, derided for stupidity while actually doing pretty well the only thing possible given a ridiculously bad situation.
Kagran, ironically, seems to be the exemplar of the "time manipulation is bad" school. He would do anything - up to and including a desperate gamble with every spare ship - rather than rely on time manipulation. And after that, in Midnight, he's effectively the one arguing not to disrupt the timeline. So who's the idiot?
Contrast "TRIBBLE$-fly". Simulations of erasing the Iconians entirely? Yeah, that I can see having dramatic effects like having Vulcans replace Klingons as the 'verse's archetypical proud warrior race. But see the logical disconnect when they actually use the doomsday weapon:
Erasing an Iconian outpost prevents the Enterprise-D and IRW Haakona from discovering it, which means the Iconians don't get alerted to our existence, which prevents Hobus, which... causes the Borg to invade ch'Rihan from the Delta Quadrant? TRIBBLE$ PULL.
Erasing the Borg transwarp conduit prevents the restored ch'Rihan from being invaded, which... causes the entire timeline to revert making Hobus to happen again, and erases the proto-Sphere Builders from history? TRIBBLE$ PULL.
Whether it was writer's intention or not, someone else on these boards suggested that the reason for the Borg takeover was that - with no active Iconians to set an agenda - Hakeev and his Tal Shiar mates focussed exclusively on mucking around with Borg tech, an end up activating a transwarp gate next to Romulus; hence Borg invasion.
Now - remembering that the events of the Narada's creation are, what, a decade before STO's present? - if the transwarp gate goes down, feasibly the same crew end up poking around Iconia and disturbing the Iconians a few decades late. Since this is an eyeblink in Iconian terms, the rest unfolds much as seen. Perhaps the change in the Delta Quadrant situation means the Iconian manipulation of the Vaadwaur and war on the Krenim is different. Point is, reasons.
The Temporal Accords are an attempt to get everyone on the same page and say NO to trying to change history. But since time travel is a thing in the Star Trek universe, inevitably some goon decides to cheat and change history in their favor and ignore all of the horror stories of messed up timelines. The megalomaniacs responsible assure themselves that THEY won't make those kinds of mistakes.
And since nobody in their right minds wants to let that go, sorry, we have temporal agents working to prevent those kinds of changes.
You don't have to like time travel stories. But TOS opened the genie's bottle, TNG/DS9/VOY cheerfully poked the genie every chance they got, and ENT went ahead and smashed the bottle into a million pieces. Because time travel writers assure themselves that THEY won't make the same mistakes their predecessors did. Only a few actually make it work.
Like I said, the timestream's a harsh and fickle b****.
To quote Miles O'Brian. 'I HATE TEMPORAL MECHANICS!'
In all seriousness though, because this is a feature episode should i play this one now or wait? I've gotten to the iconian war and while i normally wouldn't want to play things out of order... if we're being ganked out of time it won't cause nearly so many narrative snarls will it? It'd just be a case of 'uh... er... forget we said anything about things you haven't done yet.'
I thought the news report said Time and Tide was now live. When I login I find nothing.
When I say nothing I mean the episode itself. I found the new outfits in the Lobi store and the new lockbox is in the dilithium store. But I don't see the episode. If the episode is not live then the news report title is misleading.
Edit: Found it. Not where I expected. I was looking for it in the missions list under Future Perfect, should have remembered they would put it up in the featured episodes before moving it down to its place in the missions list.
I am not the slightest bit surprised by anything in that mission, i already called it out in a previous thread: "Suspicions" that Noye was likely to turn on everyone because he found out about the records from clauda and it tore him up and a possible connection to the sphere builders. paste from that thread:
Noye was okay until he lost his wife, temporal mechanics corrected as if she never existed, im guessing after reading the logs from the temperal core he realized he lost someone close to him and it has made him bitter, secretive, manipulative and possibly even cruel. all the wrong features you want in a man who is going to do an annorax. find his wife in time and everything else be damned, correct it and possibly get the old imperium back, or annorax himself.
if it goes this route, this re-hash, i called it first
Dont underestimate the power of greed, love and selffishness. Noye knows the mechanics of time travel all too well, he only needs a ship and some delusional crew members and hes off on a journey that would cause nothing but trouble. He could be the key to the spherebuilders and possibly how they behave in the timestream. the information he may have gathered could of been the first step in these people understanding what goes on in the galaxy.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
[*] Erasing an Iconian outpost prevents the Enterprise-D and IRW Haakona from discovering it, which means the Iconians don't get alerted to our existence, which prevents Hobus, which... causes the Borg to invade ch'Rihan from the Delta Quadrant? TRIBBLE$ PULL.
It was actually worse than that. If it had been erasing an outpost, that might have made at least a little sense. The plan was to cause a meteor strike to take out the archaeological site and prevent discovery of the Iconians... which we cause to happen by erasing an asteroid from the timeline???
Barely plausible, if you employ lots of handwaving, smoke, and mirrors to explain it. Not a great premise.
The Temporal Accords are an attempt to get everyone on the same page and say NO to trying to change history. But since time travel is a thing in the Star Trek universe, inevitably some goon decides to cheat and change history in their favor and ignore all of the horror stories of messed up timelines. The megalomaniacs responsible assure themselves that THEY won't make those kinds of mistakes.
And since nobody in their right minds wants to let that go, sorry, we have temporal agents working to prevent those kinds of changes.
You don't have to like time travel stories. But TOS opened the genie's bottle, TNG/DS9/VOY cheerfully poked the genie every chance they got, and ENT went ahead and smashed the bottle into a million pieces. Because time travel writers assure themselves that THEY won't make the same mistakes their predecessors did. Only a few actually make it work.
Like I said, the timestream's a harsh and fickle b****.
To quote Miles O'Brian. 'I HATE TEMPORAL MECHANICS!'
In all seriousness though, because this is a feature episode should i play this one now or wait? I've gotten to the iconian war and while i normally wouldn't want to play things out of order... if we're being ganked out of time it won't cause nearly so many narrative snarls will it? It'd just be a case of 'uh... er... forget we said anything about things you haven't done yet.'
Assuming Cryptic runs true to form, the FE will have a special weekly reward that you only get if you play the mission during that week. They'll release additional rewards the following two weeks, including a new weekly reward.
If you want the special weekly rewards, you have to play it during the release weeks. Otherwise, you can wait and play it when it comes up in your mission log. The weekly rewards are once per account, so you only need to play them on one character.
Called it! I had a feeling that Noye would eventually discover what happened to Clauda and that would make him finally snap.
But the fact that he also lost his unborn child too... yeah, that was a table-flipper.
Hearing his accusations in Time and Tide, I actually took the time (no pun intended), and went back to run Butterfly again to see what exactly happened:
The first incursion that got things all messed up, with Romulus (and probably a huge chunk of Romulan space) ending up being completely assimilated, was done based on Krenim researcher Jelen's projections.
Then, at one point, we beamed down to an ex-Tal Shiar facility to recover any temporal records the Borg had. Based on that downloaded data, it was Noye who suggested a new target to undo the damage: the transwarp gateway in Romulus orbit. In my opinion, the erasure of the Tuterians was a direct result of Noye's actions.
We needed a solution against the Iconians. The Krenim agreed, and even though it was dangerous and the results were unpredictable, we went ahead with the plan anyway.
"We all knew the risks." - Clauda
Rewind far enough and true, we gave them the resources, we needed the weapon. But he ran the numbers for the incursion that wiped out the Tuterians.
In my opinion Noye is refusing to accept his responsibility and does the next best thing instead: casting blame.
I should be a-Noye-d by him (ba-dum-tss), but I can't. I just feel sorry for his loss and that he can't move on.
It's like... blaming the weapon's manufacturer for your friendly fire with a phaser pistol; just a quick bad example.
Either way, I think the Annorax should have been decommissioned and destroyed... or at least sent to a classified location where it could be taken apart and mothballed. Keeping it intact and docked, tucked away at Kyana Station, ready for launch, was a mistake.
Okay, ranting over XXD
MOVING ON!
New Khitomer was amazing! Personally, I think the Alliance designers took some hints from the Solanae dyson spheres when they built that huuuuge ring! I dropped my jaw at that. ^^
Walker's little "crash course" about what we were walking into in the 29th century was very interesting The Alliance expanding to eventually create a Galactic Union... WOW!
And then the Amphitheathre... O.O The people in there were a lot different from their 25th century counterparts. Romulans in the Federation? Possibly Klingons too? Friendly Tholians? A Breen officer that actually bothered to talk to us? The characters in there showed me a very colorful and detailed picture, overall.
Here's why I think the Klingons joined the Federation as well: the fellow we meet in the amphitheatre identifies our "from-when-point" from our uniform, just from a glance! Maybe he just paid attention in history class, but I think it was a bit more than that.
edit: On second playthrough I noticed that the Klingon NPC had "Federation Embassador" over his head. Little me... so blind! I was so busy with what they had to say! XXD
The Na'kuhl... not cool, still blaming us. Fighting their ships out in space around the New Khitomer Ring felt refreshing. Hope to see what else they've got up their sleeves in the future -- and that we can finally get through their thick skull and talk some sense into them!!
And Noye's attack... Like I mentioned above, I think he is casting blame.
We're in over our heads now. The Na'kuhl, Noye and the Sphere Builders/Tuterians... Things got hairy with the Iconians, true, but with the battlefield now including time itself, we really need to keep our heads down.
I hope the crew of the Pastak can track down the KIV Annorax somehow.
All in all, it was good to see the consequences of our actions back in the Iconian War, as they finally begin to unfold.
Kudos for the developers for the new visuals, scenes, cutscenes and animations; for the writers for the good episode; for the voice actors for the talent.
*thumbs-up*
Sorry for the long post, have your imagination insert a Hierarchy space-potato here! ^^
Post edited by kelettes on
"Ad astra audacter eamus in alis fidelium."
-
"To boldly go to the stars on the wings of the faithful."
Comments
With the Iconian War over, the Alliance still holds the Solanae and Jenolan Dyson Spheres. So by the 28th century, Starfleet would have had 300 years to study them and maybe incorporate some Iconian know-how into how they build starbases. That seems the most likely explanation to me.
There's really no point for the Iconians to get involved with the Temporal Accords, since they can't travel through time. (Although that would arguably make them a great neutral party in the mattter as you suggested.) But considering L'Miren said that it would likely be a millenium until the Iconians would rejoin the galaxy, I'm more inclined to believe that they're sitting on Iconia and don't want anything to do with this.
You may be right, though.
-
"To boldly go to the stars on the wings of the faithful."
I still don't expect to see an Iconian in the mission, and the architecture in the first pic looks more Starfleet to me than anything else. But maybe there'll be Herald NPC in attendance, just to observe the signing on their behalf.
Player and forumite formerly known as FEELTHETHUNDER
Expatriot Might Characters in EXILE
Don't think so, but it would've been nice if that happened. Although, when I look at the second screenshot with the transporter, the hallway leading to another room looks suspiciously from Dyson Sphere modeling. Including the shape and textures of the walls on the first and second screenshot. So I'm guessing that the Federation is using reverse-engineered Dyson/Iconian technology now... in some way.
"Our history, our past, our present and our future is now forever changed. All we can do is preserve what is left and continue onwards. This is not a surrender nor defeat, we will continue the fight. This is our last hope, our last chance... for victory."
Vlasek D. Lasor - 4.19.3580
Star Trek Online: Foundry Storyline Series
I really don't understand the hostility.
The Temporal Accords are an attempt to get everyone on the same page and say NO to trying to change history. But since time travel is a thing in the Star Trek universe, inevitably some goon decides to cheat and change history in their favor and ignore all of the horror stories of messed up timelines. The megalomaniacs responsible assure themselves that THEY won't make those kinds of mistakes.
And since nobody in their right minds wants to let that go, sorry, we have temporal agents working to prevent those kinds of changes.
You don't have to like time travel stories. But TOS opened the genie's bottle, TNG/DS9/VOY cheerfully poked the genie every chance they got, and ENT went ahead and smashed the bottle into a million pieces. Because time travel writers assure themselves that THEY won't make the same mistakes their predecessors did. Only a few actually make it work.
Like I said, the timestream's a harsh and fickle b****.
Player and forumite formerly known as FEELTHETHUNDER
Expatriot Might Characters in EXILE
Agent: I'm bringing you to the future to witness the Temporal Accords' signing ceremony because of your role in history!
Captain Kanril Eleya: I'm curious. What, specifically, do your files say about me?
Agent: They called you a great captain who--
Kanril: No, they didn't. They called me a disruptive, disrespectful, insubordinate pain in the TRIBBLE who's good at winning battles. They also probably said I'm always armed. (pulls knife) And you're under arrest.
Agent: Arrest? For what?
Kanril: Well, let's see. You're from the 28th century, but this is 2410, which means you have no valid credentials. So I'm charging you with felony impersonation of an officer of the Federation Starfleet.
Agent: ...You're crazy.
Kanril: And that wasn't in my file? Please tell me you're resisting arrest, I need the practice. Security to the ready room. Get this moron out of my sight.
XO: Temporal Investigations is going to raise hell.
Kanril: Let them. Unlike that TRIBBLE I'm actually upholding the Temporal Prime Directive.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Here's the kicker, what if you knowing is how the future unfolds?
Actually, that's Eleya summarizing her file from her present day. Notice she cut him off before he actually told her anything meaningful about her future.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Granted, but it's also sort of implied that this occurs in an alternate universe, not just an altered timeline. There's a subtle distinction, but it's there.
Certainly no future Time Cops have appeared to suggest that this 'little' aberration affects the STO universe in any way and needs any intervention. Nobody on this side of things really has any knowledge of any historical changes wrought in what we all call the "JJVerse". All we know on this side is that Spock disappeared and that's the end of it where STO is concerned.
My character's personal timeline is not 'entangled' in any way shape or form to events unfolding in the JJVerse. So from my point of view, nothing that happens over there affects me at all. The temporal agents in the STO universe might be aware of that timeline, but they're not going to touch it because the second there is a two-way connection between the two they become interactive and 'entangled'.
Again, I'm going to defer back to the guy whom I consider to be an expert on time travel in Star Trek... Christopher L. Bennett. There are some principles that follow from his DTI novels and I believe those principles are relevant here.
The first rule of temporal intervention is 'do no harm (to the timeline)'. You absolutely do not tinker with events any more than you absolutely have to. You allow events to unfold naturally unless they're a threat to the timeline. You do not tell upstream events to downstream agents unless it's necessary to protect the timeline. You interact with downstream history as little as possible and do not interfere with major events or predestination paradoxes no matter how bad they are; if that's the way history is supposed to flow, you leave it alone. You resist the temptation to use time travel to solve a problem when there's an alternate way to do it. (Most of which the STO storyline is pretty much violating... Kal Dano told more than he should and so apparently does Captain Walker).
Why? I can point back to "Butterfly" again. Ripple effects and unintended and unforseeable consequences. If you have to make a ripple, you make it as small as possible and hope history smooths it over. You certainly do not make waves and expect that all will be well.
I don't think time travel should really be the next frontier in STO, for all of these reasons and those expressed by the likes of angrytarg and starswordc. The implication that time travel becomes commonplace is a really bad idea. But again, ENT opened the door and then brought the house down on top of it where time travel is concerned so the precedent has already been set.
Honestly, the biggest problem with "Butt-fly", besides it being forced on you by Captain Zapp Kagran jumping the gun on the Krenim weapon's construction and trying to zerg rush the freaking Herald Sphere (protip: human wave tactics don't work against orders-of-magnitude larger forces, especially when they have an entrenched position; that was the absolute stupidest plan in Star Trek history), was that it tried to reuse the plot of "Year of Hell" without taking into account what made the plot actually work. What made "Year of Hell" work was that the ripples all followed logically from the action made, even if the characters didn't predict the effects. The examples I can remember without looking it up on Memory Alpha:
Contrast "TRIBBLE$-fly". Simulations of erasing the Iconians entirely? Yeah, that I can see having dramatic effects like having Vulcans replace Klingons as the 'verse's archetypical proud warrior race. But see the logical disconnect when they actually use the doomsday weapon:
I'm all right with time travel stories, as long as they're rare and the effects follow logically. "Yesterday's Enterprise" managed it, even helped explain how the Federation managed to keep the Khitomer Accords together as long as it did despite Klingon overcompensation for their shortcomings (loss of Enterprise to Romulans -> Romulans become a bogeyman, a la the Dominion). DS9 did it repeatedly and quite well, for example in "Past Tense" where, faced with the prospect of having changed a watershed event in American history, Sisko inserted himself into a dead man's role and ensured the event would play out properly. Chuck Sonnenburg theorized that, sans Gabriel Bell, the US turned into something more like the Terran Empire's precursor states, meaning a more extensive nuclear exchange in World War III, meaning maybe Zefram Cochrane got incinerated before he could invent warp drive.
Hell, even Doctor Who managed it for the most part, at least during Russell T. Davies' run (I haven't watched past the middle of new series 4).
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
With the benefit of absolute clarity in hindsight... Kagran is like WWI generals, derided for stupidity while actually doing pretty well the only thing possible given a ridiculously bad situation.
Kagran, ironically, seems to be the exemplar of the "time manipulation is bad" school. He would do anything - up to and including a desperate gamble with every spare ship - rather than rely on time manipulation. And after that, in Midnight, he's effectively the one arguing not to disrupt the timeline. So who's the idiot?
Whether it was writer's intention or not, someone else on these boards suggested that the reason for the Borg takeover was that - with no active Iconians to set an agenda - Hakeev and his Tal Shiar mates focussed exclusively on mucking around with Borg tech, an end up activating a transwarp gate next to Romulus; hence Borg invasion.
Now - remembering that the events of the Narada's creation are, what, a decade before STO's present? - if the transwarp gate goes down, feasibly the same crew end up poking around Iconia and disturbing the Iconians a few decades late. Since this is an eyeblink in Iconian terms, the rest unfolds much as seen. Perhaps the change in the Delta Quadrant situation means the Iconian manipulation of the Vaadwaur and war on the Krenim is different. Point is, reasons.
To quote Miles O'Brian. 'I HATE TEMPORAL MECHANICS!'
In all seriousness though, because this is a feature episode should i play this one now or wait? I've gotten to the iconian war and while i normally wouldn't want to play things out of order... if we're being ganked out of time it won't cause nearly so many narrative snarls will it? It'd just be a case of 'uh... er... forget we said anything about things you haven't done yet.'
When I say nothing I mean the episode itself. I found the new outfits in the Lobi store and the new lockbox is in the dilithium store. But I don't see the episode. If the episode is not live then the news report title is misleading.
Edit: Found it. Not where I expected. I was looking for it in the missions list under Future Perfect, should have remembered they would put it up in the featured episodes before moving it down to its place in the missions list.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Yep, seems all the major factions fold into the Federation eventually...
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
It was actually worse than that. If it had been erasing an outpost, that might have made at least a little sense. The plan was to cause a meteor strike to take out the archaeological site and prevent discovery of the Iconians... which we cause to happen by erasing an asteroid from the timeline???
Barely plausible, if you employ lots of handwaving, smoke, and mirrors to explain it. Not a great premise.
Assuming Cryptic runs true to form, the FE will have a special weekly reward that you only get if you play the mission during that week. They'll release additional rewards the following two weeks, including a new weekly reward.
If you want the special weekly rewards, you have to play it during the release weeks. Otherwise, you can wait and play it when it comes up in your mission log. The weekly rewards are once per account, so you only need to play them on one character.
TL;DR ALERT XXD
But the fact that he also lost his unborn child too... yeah, that was a table-flipper.
Hearing his accusations in Time and Tide, I actually took the time (no pun intended), and went back to run Butterfly again to see what exactly happened:
The first incursion that got things all messed up, with Romulus (and probably a huge chunk of Romulan space) ending up being completely assimilated, was done based on Krenim researcher Jelen's projections.
Then, at one point, we beamed down to an ex-Tal Shiar facility to recover any temporal records the Borg had. Based on that downloaded data, it was Noye who suggested a new target to undo the damage: the transwarp gateway in Romulus orbit. In my opinion, the erasure of the Tuterians was a direct result of Noye's actions.
We needed a solution against the Iconians. The Krenim agreed, and even though it was dangerous and the results were unpredictable, we went ahead with the plan anyway.
"We all knew the risks." - Clauda
Rewind far enough and true, we gave them the resources, we needed the weapon. But he ran the numbers for the incursion that wiped out the Tuterians.
In my opinion Noye is refusing to accept his responsibility and does the next best thing instead: casting blame.
I should be a-Noye-d by him (ba-dum-tss), but I can't. I just feel sorry for his loss and that he can't move on.
It's like... blaming the weapon's manufacturer for your friendly fire with a phaser pistol; just a quick bad example.
Either way, I think the Annorax should have been decommissioned and destroyed... or at least sent to a classified location where it could be taken apart and mothballed. Keeping it intact and docked, tucked away at Kyana Station, ready for launch, was a mistake.
Okay, ranting over XXD
MOVING ON!
New Khitomer was amazing!
Walker's little "crash course" about what we were walking into in the 29th century was very interesting
And then the Amphitheathre... O.O The people in there were a lot different from their 25th century counterparts. Romulans in the Federation? Possibly Klingons too? Friendly Tholians? A Breen officer that actually bothered to talk to us? The characters in there showed me a very colorful and detailed picture, overall.
Here's why I think the Klingons joined the Federation as well: the fellow we meet in the amphitheatre identifies our "from-when-point" from our uniform, just from a glance! Maybe he just paid attention in history class, but I think it was a bit more than that.
edit: On second playthrough I noticed that the Klingon NPC had "Federation Embassador" over his head. Little me... so blind! I was so busy with what they had to say! XXD
The Na'kuhl... not cool, still blaming us. Fighting their ships out in space around the New Khitomer Ring felt refreshing.
And Noye's attack... Like I mentioned above, I think he is casting blame.
We're in over our heads now. The Na'kuhl, Noye and the Sphere Builders/Tuterians... Things got hairy with the Iconians, true, but with the battlefield now including time itself, we really need to keep our heads down.
I hope the crew of the Pastak can track down the KIV Annorax somehow.
All in all, it was good to see the consequences of our actions back in the Iconian War, as they finally begin to unfold.
Kudos for the developers for the new visuals, scenes, cutscenes and animations; for the writers for the good episode; for the voice actors for the talent.
*thumbs-up*
Sorry for the long post, have your imagination insert a Hierarchy space-potato here! ^^
-
"To boldly go to the stars on the wings of the faithful."