There probably are a few weird people willing to intentionally throw their individuality away, yes.
Me--if ONLY the physical enhancements were in question with NO loss of individuality and NO risk of being TRIBBLE, I might think about that aspect of it alone. But no messing with my mind under any circumstances.
the question was never really answered, but this sounds like Cooperative territory, one borg as one point had to be reminded to stay linked to Kursus, indicating that even though Huge was not a part of that borg faction, they could in fact detach themselves at will from the others without being forced to do so.
Thus, one could argue, would it be acceptable/possible to ask the Cooperative to BE borg, as long as they where NOT linked and could choose for themselves and link only as needed to help the Cooperative, other then that living like they did before a Cooperative assimilation.
Another Argument would be, after a Cooperative assimilation, could the Hive Mind hack the tech on that borg making it a Hive Mind drone.
The problem I had with Riley's actions was that she imposed her will on all of the rival factions, and it was no mere information-sharing/social network. I don't think the words "benevolent" and "abrogation of others' free will" belong in the same sentence.
But yeah, the fact that Goval (the guy that got in trouble with Crosis for detaching himself from the group) rebelled like that, and Lore's reaction suggesting Goval wasn't the first to have done that, is why I think the earlier Liberated Borg have a greater tendency towards rebellion than many of those freed post-First Contact.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
you need to remember that if it were left up to the borg collective they would turn every sentient being in the entire galaxy into a borg drone or kill any that fight back with their superior firepower and defences.
if killing every borg is committing mass genocide in your opinion then what are the borg doing.
would you not class this as galactic slavery and mass genocide on an unprecedented scale.
are you implying that any who refuse to be enslaved by the borg and stripped of their individuality or wiped out do not have the right to defend themselves.
indeed their individuality does remain but it is imprisoned deep within, unable to control their actions or live their lives as they wish or even love another of their kind, yet they have committed no crime that deserves this imprisonment and isolation.
the borg are like a virus infecting others without remorse or feelings, with a total lack of empathy they are the quintessential Sociopath.
sure they can be liberated but they can never be completely cured, almost like a addict they are only a hairs breath away from being reintegrated into the collective at any given moment and any offspring they may have after they are liberated will probably carry that same dormant infection deep within their blood.
I don't know which is more disturbing: your prejudice toward liberated Borg, or that you justify genocide with genocide.
I have no prejudice toward liberated Borg, but its like the old saying goes 'once an addict always an addict' although not quite the same the analogy still fits, once a borg always a borg, like the addict who can so easily revert so can a liberated borg so easily be reverted to the collective, did we not see just this very thing in the pve queue 'Borg Disconnected'.
there is a is difference between justifying genocide with genocide and protecting your home family and friends from and the whole population of the entire galaxy from genocide with genocide, besides which you are basically saying its ok for one person to kill another person to protect his life but it is wrong for one race to kill another race for the same protection, remember it only takes one borg queen to start the the collective again so if that means committing genocide against a race of millions of borg to protect billions and billions of lives then so be it.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
Hmmm With the way to Cooperative has been hanging out with the Ocampa.... I have to wonder if maybe there is a certain amount of willing assimilation there.
you need to remember that if it were left up to the borg collective they would turn every sentient being in the entire galaxy into a borg drone or kill any that fight back with their superior firepower and defences.
if killing every borg is committing mass genocide in your opinion then what are the borg doing.
would you not class this as galactic slavery and mass genocide on an unprecedented scale.
are you implying that any who refuse to be enslaved by the borg and stripped of their individuality or wiped out do not have the right to defend themselves.
indeed their individuality does remain but it is imprisoned deep within, unable to control their actions or live their lives as they wish or even love another of their kind, yet they have committed no crime that deserves this imprisonment and isolation.
the borg are like a virus infecting others without remorse or feelings, with a total lack of empathy they are the quintessential Sociopath.
sure they can be liberated but they can never be completely cured, almost like a addict they are only a hairs breath away from being reintegrated into the collective at any given moment and any offspring they may have after they are liberated will probably carry that same dormant infection deep within their blood.
I don't know which is more disturbing: your prejudice toward liberated Borg, or that you justify genocide with genocide.
I have no prejudice toward liberated Borg, but its like the old saying goes 'once an addict always an addict' although not quite the same the analogy still fits, once a borg always a borg, like the addict who can so easily revert so can a liberated borg so easily be reverted to the collective, did we not see just this very thing in the pve queue 'Borg Disconnected'.
there is a is difference between justifying genocide with genocide and protecting your home family and friends from and the whole population of the entire galaxy from genocide with genocide, besides which you are basically saying its ok for one person to kill another person to protect his life but it is wrong for one race to kill another race for the same protection, remember it only takes one borg queen to start the the collective again so if that means committing genocide against a race of millions of borg to protect billions and billions of lives then so be it.
At what point do the ones who you care about find out about your monsterous actions on those you have killed to protect those you care for and they hate you for it?
that type of action to protect one by destroying another is a double edged sword, you should not become the monster you are fighting to win, thats likes saying the cheater is winning and so i must cheat to win back. there are otherways to stop the borg that do not include constant violence. for example a virus sent into the borg collective that disconnects most of the drones permanently from the collective and they can not be reassimilated because the virus is in every drone. it wont kill them at all, it wil return their individuality and give them a chance to rebuild. at this point you can choose to guide them on a better path or they end up killing each other, in any event, your actions allowed these people to be free from the collective, all without firing a shot and the virus is not harmful in any way. what these liberated drones choose to do after the fact is ultimately up to them, it is their choice at that point.
you protected those you loved by exploiting the enemys usual weak point, the support struts. knock a few of those out, cheating or not, they will crash to the ground.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
you need to remember that if it were left up to the borg collective they would turn every sentient being in the entire galaxy into a borg drone or kill any that fight back with their superior firepower and defences.
if killing every borg is committing mass genocide in your opinion then what are the borg doing.
would you not class this as galactic slavery and mass genocide on an unprecedented scale.
are you implying that any who refuse to be enslaved by the borg and stripped of their individuality or wiped out do not have the right to defend themselves.
indeed their individuality does remain but it is imprisoned deep within, unable to control their actions or live their lives as they wish or even love another of their kind, yet they have committed no crime that deserves this imprisonment and isolation.
the borg are like a virus infecting others without remorse or feelings, with a total lack of empathy they are the quintessential Sociopath.
sure they can be liberated but they can never be completely cured, almost like a addict they are only a hairs breath away from being reintegrated into the collective at any given moment and any offspring they may have after they are liberated will probably carry that same dormant infection deep within their blood.
I don't know which is more disturbing: your prejudice toward liberated Borg, or that you justify genocide with genocide.
Yes, his prejudice about a fictional species/group is truly disgusting
My thought: I find it hard to believe that Seven of nine was the only person to pursue adapting Borg tech to practical medical uses. I mean... If the person is already infused with nanites.... then Borg nanites will have greater difficulty invading. And well, Cyborg vs Cyborg combat....
Ok the stupidity this devolved to was a new speed record... prejudice against something that doesn't exist!? LOL that person must be from San Francisco.
Meanwhile another twenty thousand people have died of starvation while you've all been so passionately arguing this important and life changing subject...
you need to remember that if it were left up to the borg collective they would turn every sentient being in the entire galaxy into a borg drone or kill any that fight back with their superior firepower and defences.
if killing every borg is committing mass genocide in your opinion then what are the borg doing.
would you not class this as galactic slavery and mass genocide on an unprecedented scale.
are you implying that any who refuse to be enslaved by the borg and stripped of their individuality or wiped out do not have the right to defend themselves.
indeed their individuality does remain but it is imprisoned deep within, unable to control their actions or live their lives as they wish or even love another of their kind, yet they have committed no crime that deserves this imprisonment and isolation.
the borg are like a virus infecting others without remorse or feelings, with a total lack of empathy they are the quintessential Sociopath.
sure they can be liberated but they can never be completely cured, almost like a addict they are only a hairs breath away from being reintegrated into the collective at any given moment and any offspring they may have after they are liberated will probably carry that same dormant infection deep within their blood.
I don't know which is more disturbing: your prejudice toward liberated Borg, or that you justify genocide with genocide.
Yes, his prejudice about a fictional species/group is truly disgusting
Yeah, while I do not agree with his position for reasons explained above, I think it is MUCH too far to call someone, directly or indirectly, a bigot for an opinion of a fictional species, even a very strong opinion.
I think most people are mature enough to realize that the complexity of even a single real-life individual or culture is far greater than even the most elaborate fictional work and thus in a whole different category from said fictional work in terms of the consideration due them. The only reason I can think of to apply such terminology to someone's opinion of a fictional creation is in an attempt to discredit their argument on a purely emotional ("something must be wrong with the PERSON because they disagree with me!") rather than rational basis. Mind you, I DID argue rationally why he was wrong, but I think it is very wrong to use terminology that would imply someone's behavior in real life is a problem when there is no evidence to suggest it.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
you need to remember that if it were left up to the borg collective they would turn every sentient being in the entire galaxy into a borg drone or kill any that fight back with their superior firepower and defences.
if killing every borg is committing mass genocide in your opinion then what are the borg doing.
would you not class this as galactic slavery and mass genocide on an unprecedented scale.
are you implying that any who refuse to be enslaved by the borg and stripped of their individuality or wiped out do not have the right to defend themselves.
indeed their individuality does remain but it is imprisoned deep within, unable to control their actions or live their lives as they wish or even love another of their kind, yet they have committed no crime that deserves this imprisonment and isolation.
the borg are like a virus infecting others without remorse or feelings, with a total lack of empathy they are the quintessential Sociopath.
sure they can be liberated but they can never be completely cured, almost like a addict they are only a hairs breath away from being reintegrated into the collective at any given moment and any offspring they may have after they are liberated will probably carry that same dormant infection deep within their blood.
I don't know which is more disturbing: your prejudice toward liberated Borg, or that you justify genocide with genocide.
I have no prejudice toward liberated Borg, but its like the old saying goes 'once an addict always an addict' although not quite the same the analogy still fits, once a borg always a borg, like the addict who can so easily revert so can a liberated borg so easily be reverted to the collective, did we not see just this very thing in the pve queue 'Borg Disconnected'.
there is a is difference between justifying genocide with genocide and protecting your home family and friends from and the whole population of the entire galaxy from genocide with genocide, besides which you are basically saying its ok for one person to kill another person to protect his life but it is wrong for one race to kill another race for the same protection, remember it only takes one borg queen to start the the collective again so if that means committing genocide against a race of millions of borg to protect billions and billions of lives then so be it.
At what point do the ones who you care about find out about your monsterous actions on those you have killed to protect those you care for and they hate you for it?.
get real I think they would be grateful for being saved no matter the cost, self preservation is the strongest desire of any lifeform and being turned into emotionless machines like the borg is in fact a fate worse then death.
do you think john conner would feel guilty for wiping out the terminators, do you think van helsing would feel any guilt at wiping out all vampires and do you think the jewish people of 1920 to 1945 Germany would shed any tears that Adolf Hitler and the TRIBBLE party were wiped from existence.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
you need to remember that if it were left up to the borg collective they would turn every sentient being in the entire galaxy into a borg drone or kill any that fight back with their superior firepower and defences.
if killing every borg is committing mass genocide in your opinion then what are the borg doing.
would you not class this as galactic slavery and mass genocide on an unprecedented scale.
are you implying that any who refuse to be enslaved by the borg and stripped of their individuality or wiped out do not have the right to defend themselves.
indeed their individuality does remain but it is imprisoned deep within, unable to control their actions or live their lives as they wish or even love another of their kind, yet they have committed no crime that deserves this imprisonment and isolation.
the borg are like a virus infecting others without remorse or feelings, with a total lack of empathy they are the quintessential Sociopath.
sure they can be liberated but they can never be completely cured, almost like a addict they are only a hairs breath away from being reintegrated into the collective at any given moment and any offspring they may have after they are liberated will probably carry that same dormant infection deep within their blood.
I don't know which is more disturbing: your prejudice toward liberated Borg, or that you justify genocide with genocide.
Yes, his prejudice about a fictional species/group is truly disgusting
Yeah, while I do not agree with his position for reasons explained above, I think it is MUCH too far to call someone, directly or indirectly, a bigot for an opinion of a fictional species, even a very strong opinion.
I think most people are mature enough to realize that the complexity of even a single real-life individual or culture is far greater than even the most elaborate fictional work and thus in a whole different category from said fictional work in terms of the consideration due them. The only reason I can think of to apply such terminology to someone's opinion of a fictional creation is in an attempt to discredit their argument on a purely emotional ("something must be wrong with the PERSON because they disagree with me!") rather than rational basis. Mind you, I DID argue rationally why he was wrong, but I think it is very wrong to use terminology that would imply someone's behavior in real life is a problem when there is no evidence to suggest it.
I thought this entire thread was about fiction, and I could probably have worded that better.
I don't personally know the person I replied to, but he's probably a nice guy in real life, and I appreciate his later attempt at clarifying his views. My accusation of prejudice is not meant to be an accusation of out-of-game character, but was based on my interpretation of his opinion that liberated Borg can never fully be liberated, and would always remain a threat after liberation. I think that type of logic is dangerous, and could be applied to many other species we encounter. Are we to distrust Cardassians since they might revert to attempting to occupy Bajor? Are we to distrust Romulans because their former Empire has a history of subterfuge? Are we to distrust Vulcans because they could nerve pinch us? It's true that there might be a few bad examples among each species, but the vast majority of those people are fine. The Borg are no different. Each liberated individual will have their own distinctive struggles as they regain their individuality, but that does not mean we should distrust them collectively. Work with the liberated Borg as they struggle to adapt; don't just toss them aside as a lost cause.
It is. The word you might be looking for is "atrocity." Genocide is a specific type of atrocity, the willful seeking out and wiping out of an entire race/species from existence. Killing masses of Borg could arguably called an atrocity, but since the purpose is usually self-defense, it can't be called genocide. It would only be a proper genocide if everyone went methodically from sector to sector destroying every sphere and cube in sight as part of a grander plan to erase all traces of the Borg for no other reason but to wipe them off the face of the map.
My Foundry Mission--Name: Falling Star | Mission ID: HQIH36HAW | Faction: FED
you need to remember that if it were left up to the borg collective they would turn every sentient being in the entire galaxy into a borg drone or kill any that fight back with their superior firepower and defences.
if killing every borg is committing mass genocide in your opinion then what are the borg doing.
would you not class this as galactic slavery and mass genocide on an unprecedented scale.
are you implying that any who refuse to be enslaved by the borg and stripped of their individuality or wiped out do not have the right to defend themselves.
indeed their individuality does remain but it is imprisoned deep within, unable to control their actions or live their lives as they wish or even love another of their kind, yet they have committed no crime that deserves this imprisonment and isolation.
the borg are like a virus infecting others without remorse or feelings, with a total lack of empathy they are the quintessential Sociopath.
sure they can be liberated but they can never be completely cured, almost like a addict they are only a hairs breath away from being reintegrated into the collective at any given moment and any offspring they may have after they are liberated will probably carry that same dormant infection deep within their blood.
I don't know which is more disturbing: your prejudice toward liberated Borg, or that you justify genocide with genocide.
Yes, his prejudice about a fictional species/group is truly disgusting
Yeah, while I do not agree with his position for reasons explained above, I think it is MUCH too far to call someone, directly or indirectly, a bigot for an opinion of a fictional species, even a very strong opinion.
I think most people are mature enough to realize that the complexity of even a single real-life individual or culture is far greater than even the most elaborate fictional work and thus in a whole different category from said fictional work in terms of the consideration due them. The only reason I can think of to apply such terminology to someone's opinion of a fictional creation is in an attempt to discredit their argument on a purely emotional ("something must be wrong with the PERSON because they disagree with me!") rather than rational basis. Mind you, I DID argue rationally why he was wrong, but I think it is very wrong to use terminology that would imply someone's behavior in real life is a problem when there is no evidence to suggest it.
I thought this entire thread was about fiction, and I could probably have worded that better.
I don't personally know the person I replied to, but he's probably a nice guy in real life, and I appreciate his later attempt at clarifying his views. My accusation of prejudice is not meant to be an accusation of out-of-game character, but was based on my interpretation of his opinion that liberated Borg can never fully be liberated, and would always remain a threat after liberation. I think that type of logic is dangerous, and could be applied to many other species we encounter. Are we to distrust Cardassians since they might revert to attempting to occupy Bajor? Are we to distrust Romulans because their former Empire has a history of subterfuge? Are we to distrust Vulcans because they could nerve pinch us? It's true that there might be a few bad examples among each species, but the vast majority of those people are fine. The Borg are no different. Each liberated individual will have their own distinctive struggles as they regain their individuality, but that does not mean we should distrust them collectively. Work with the liberated Borg as they struggle to adapt; don't just toss them aside as a lost cause.
real life or fiction I see no difference in my philosophy, just imagine we faced a real life independence day scenario, would you lay down and die for the invading alien horde or would you fight back and try to destroy every last one of those invading nasty's.
if an enemy is willing to kill to conquer then I see no reason why I should not kill the enemy to survive, sure if a nice mutually agreeable peaceful solution can be reached fine but at the end of the day if in a conflict I have to choose between me and mine over them and theirs to survive I will choose me and mine every time and I feel no shame in stating that fact.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
do you think john conner would feel guilty for wiping out the terminators,
Given the number of Terminators that he has called friends and allies.... Yes, John Conner WOULD feel bad about eradicating their race. Granted he might do it anyways, but he wouldn't be happy to do it.
real life or fiction I see no difference in my philosophy, just imagine we faced a real life independence day scenario, would you lay down and die for the invading alien horde or would you fight back and try to destroy every last one of those invading nasty's.
if an enemy is willing to kill to conquer then I see no reason why I should not kill the enemy to survive, sure if a nice mutually agreeable peaceful solution can be reached fine but at the end of the day if in a conflict I have to choose between me and mine over them and theirs to survive I will choose me and mine every time and I feel no shame in starting that fact.
Ah, but if you have the ability to disable their attack and save a few lives in the process, is that not the better option? I realize that in war bad things happen and many lives are lost, but there is also potential to do good. Don't be the same as your enemy, be better than your enemy. It is now 2410 and we've had decades to learn ways to disable Borg technologies and liberate their drones. Are we not obligated to put that knowledge to use?
real life or fiction I see no difference in my philosophy, just imagine we faced a real life independence day scenario, would you lay down and die for the invading alien horde or would you fight back and try to destroy every last one of those invading nasty's.
if an enemy is willing to kill to conquer then I see no reason why I should not kill the enemy to survive, sure if a nice mutually agreeable peaceful solution can be reached fine but at the end of the day if in a conflict I have to choose between me and mine over them and theirs to survive I will choose me and mine every time and I feel no shame in starting that fact.
Ah, but if you have the ability to disable their attack and save a few lives in the process, is that not the better option? I realize that in war bad things happen and many lives are lost, but there is also potential to do good. Don't be the same as your enemy, be better than your enemy. It is now 2410 and we've had decades to learn ways to disable Borg technologies and liberate their drones. Are we not obligated to put that knowledge to use?
IIRC the Path to 2409 explains that the Collective has started working on ways to prevent de-assimilation. Thus sometimes it just doesn't work.
you need to remember that if it were left up to the borg collective they would turn every sentient being in the entire galaxy into a borg drone or kill any that fight back with their superior firepower and defences.
if killing every borg is committing mass genocide in your opinion then what are the borg doing.
would you not class this as galactic slavery and mass genocide on an unprecedented scale.
are you implying that any who refuse to be enslaved by the borg and stripped of their individuality or wiped out do not have the right to defend themselves.
indeed their individuality does remain but it is imprisoned deep within, unable to control their actions or live their lives as they wish or even love another of their kind, yet they have committed no crime that deserves this imprisonment and isolation.
the borg are like a virus infecting others without remorse or feelings, with a total lack of empathy they are the quintessential Sociopath.
sure they can be liberated but they can never be completely cured, almost like a addict they are only a hairs breath away from being reintegrated into the collective at any given moment and any offspring they may have after they are liberated will probably carry that same dormant infection deep within their blood.
I don't know which is more disturbing: your prejudice toward liberated Borg, or that you justify genocide with genocide.
Yes, his prejudice about a fictional species/group is truly disgusting
Yeah, while I do not agree with his position for reasons explained above, I think it is MUCH too far to call someone, directly or indirectly, a bigot for an opinion of a fictional species, even a very strong opinion.
I think most people are mature enough to realize that the complexity of even a single real-life individual or culture is far greater than even the most elaborate fictional work and thus in a whole different category from said fictional work in terms of the consideration due them. The only reason I can think of to apply such terminology to someone's opinion of a fictional creation is in an attempt to discredit their argument on a purely emotional ("something must be wrong with the PERSON because they disagree with me!") rather than rational basis. Mind you, I DID argue rationally why he was wrong, but I think it is very wrong to use terminology that would imply someone's behavior in real life is a problem when there is no evidence to suggest it.
I thought this entire thread was about fiction, and I could probably have worded that better.
I don't personally know the person I replied to, but he's probably a nice guy in real life, and I appreciate his later attempt at clarifying his views. My accusation of prejudice is not meant to be an accusation of out-of-game character, but was based on my interpretation of his opinion that liberated Borg can never fully be liberated, and would always remain a threat after liberation. I think that type of logic is dangerous, and could be applied to many other species we encounter. Are we to distrust Cardassians since they might revert to attempting to occupy Bajor? Are we to distrust Romulans because their former Empire has a history of subterfuge? Are we to distrust Vulcans because they could nerve pinch us? It's true that there might be a few bad examples among each species, but the vast majority of those people are fine. The Borg are no different. Each liberated individual will have their own distinctive struggles as they regain their individuality, but that does not mean we should distrust them collectively. Work with the liberated Borg as they struggle to adapt; don't just toss them aside as a lost cause.
Thanks for clearing that up...I have seen the sort of personal accusations I described before from others, so it's good to know you don't stand for that.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
real life or fiction I see no difference in my philosophy, just imagine we faced a real life independence day scenario, would you lay down and die for the invading alien horde or would you fight back and try to destroy every last one of those invading nasty's.
if an enemy is willing to kill to conquer then I see no reason why I should not kill the enemy to survive, sure if a nice mutually agreeable peaceful solution can be reached fine but at the end of the day if in a conflict I have to choose between me and mine over them and theirs to survive I will choose me and mine every time and I feel no shame in starting that fact.
Ah, but if you have the ability to disable their attack and save a few lives in the process, is that not the better option? I realize that in war bad things happen and many lives are lost, but there is also potential to do good. Don't be the same as your enemy, be better than your enemy. It is now 2410 and we've had decades to learn ways to disable Borg technologies and liberate their drones. Are we not obligated to put that knowledge to use?
IIRC the Path to 2409 explains that the Collective has started working on ways to prevent de-assimilation. Thus sometimes it just doesn't work.
This tracks with the way I have approached the subject, that the Collective throws up more roadblocks with more recently freed drones (though having been in the Collective only a very short time can still sometimes counteract that).
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
real life or fiction I see no difference in my philosophy, just imagine we faced a real life independence day scenario, would you lay down and die for the invading alien horde or would you fight back and try to destroy every last one of those invading nasty's.
if an enemy is willing to kill to conquer then I see no reason why I should not kill the enemy to survive, sure if a nice mutually agreeable peaceful solution can be reached fine but at the end of the day if in a conflict I have to choose between me and mine over them and theirs to survive I will choose me and mine every time and I feel no shame in starting that fact.
Ah, but if you have the ability to disable their attack and save a few lives in the process, is that not the better option? I realize that in war bad things happen and many lives are lost, but there is also potential to do good. Don't be the same as your enemy, be better than your enemy. It is now 2410 and we've had decades to learn ways to disable Borg technologies and liberate their drones. Are we not obligated to put that knowledge to use?
I tire of this conversation if you feel so strongly about this I suggest you stop playing this game as it is almost entirely based on the premise kill or be killed, I hear there is a nice my little pony MMO that might be right up your street.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
Ah, but if you have the ability to disable their attack and save a few lives in the process, is that not the better option?
If you have a foolproof(key word) way of doing so without increasing(key word) the level of danger to your own crew, sure. But if you wind up getting some of your own people killed by trying to rescue drones rather than just destroying the cube when you had that option, you just caused unnecessary deaths. And you should not be willing to send a single one of your crew on a drone rescuing mission that you would not be willing to send your own father/mother/brother/sister/son/daughter on, because each person under your command is someone else's father/mother/brother/sister/son/daughter.
You can buy a Borg BOFF, and I THINK there may still be a way to earn a free one in one of the ground STF's.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
It is now 2410 and we've had decades to learn ways to disable Borg technologies and liberate their drones. Are we not obligated to put that knowledge to use?
Yeah this sums up the approach of my character in a nutshell.
Also people arguing for why it's not possible & how it's risky/not worth it - remember that others may have a bit different "headcanon" for their character & crew. If say someone has a "headcanon" of their character working with the Cooperative directly, then it'd make even more sense for liberation to be a priority than a destruction. And while that person's "headcanon" may be irrelevant to you; they may feel that way about yours, especially if you go & get disrespectful by claiming 'but my is the only truth'. However, I am so not getting into debate 'zomg canon' not even 'headcanon' here, as canon-thumpers who use it in rather weird ways to justify their own viewpoints over everyone are... weeeeird. It was... interesting discussion until people started to dismiss other people's opinions or even tell what other people's crew should or shouldn't do, because... reasons.
That being said, happy holidays all.
[10:20] Your Lunge deals 4798 (2580) Physical Damage(Critical) to Tosk of Borg.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator "bIghojchugh DaneH, Dumev pagh. bIghojqangbe'chugh, DuQaHlaH pagh." "Learn lots. Don't judge. Laugh for no reason. Be nice. Seek happiness."~Day[9] "Your fun isn't wrong."~LaughingTrendy
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The problem I had with Riley's actions was that she imposed her will on all of the rival factions, and it was no mere information-sharing/social network. I don't think the words "benevolent" and "abrogation of others' free will" belong in the same sentence.
But yeah, the fact that Goval (the guy that got in trouble with Crosis for detaching himself from the group) rebelled like that, and Lore's reaction suggesting Goval wasn't the first to have done that, is why I think the earlier Liberated Borg have a greater tendency towards rebellion than many of those freed post-First Contact.
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YOUR FUZZY CUTENESS WILL BE ADDED TO OUR OWN
I have no prejudice toward liberated Borg, but its like the old saying goes 'once an addict always an addict' although not quite the same the analogy still fits, once a borg always a borg, like the addict who can so easily revert so can a liberated borg so easily be reverted to the collective, did we not see just this very thing in the pve queue 'Borg Disconnected'.
there is a is difference between justifying genocide with genocide and protecting your home family and friends from and the whole population of the entire galaxy from genocide with genocide, besides which you are basically saying its ok for one person to kill another person to protect his life but it is wrong for one race to kill another race for the same protection, remember it only takes one borg queen to start the the collective again so if that means committing genocide against a race of millions of borg to protect billions and billions of lives then so be it.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
My character Tsin'xing
At what point do the ones who you care about find out about your monsterous actions on those you have killed to protect those you care for and they hate you for it?
that type of action to protect one by destroying another is a double edged sword, you should not become the monster you are fighting to win, thats likes saying the cheater is winning and so i must cheat to win back. there are otherways to stop the borg that do not include constant violence. for example a virus sent into the borg collective that disconnects most of the drones permanently from the collective and they can not be reassimilated because the virus is in every drone. it wont kill them at all, it wil return their individuality and give them a chance to rebuild. at this point you can choose to guide them on a better path or they end up killing each other, in any event, your actions allowed these people to be free from the collective, all without firing a shot and the virus is not harmful in any way. what these liberated drones choose to do after the fact is ultimately up to them, it is their choice at that point.
you protected those you loved by exploiting the enemys usual weak point, the support struts. knock a few of those out, cheating or not, they will crash to the ground.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Yes, his prejudice about a fictional species/group is truly disgusting
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
My character Tsin'xing
Meanwhile another twenty thousand people have died of starvation while you've all been so passionately arguing this important and life changing subject...
Yeah, while I do not agree with his position for reasons explained above, I think it is MUCH too far to call someone, directly or indirectly, a bigot for an opinion of a fictional species, even a very strong opinion.
I think most people are mature enough to realize that the complexity of even a single real-life individual or culture is far greater than even the most elaborate fictional work and thus in a whole different category from said fictional work in terms of the consideration due them. The only reason I can think of to apply such terminology to someone's opinion of a fictional creation is in an attempt to discredit their argument on a purely emotional ("something must be wrong with the PERSON because they disagree with me!") rather than rational basis. Mind you, I DID argue rationally why he was wrong, but I think it is very wrong to use terminology that would imply someone's behavior in real life is a problem when there is no evidence to suggest it.
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Wow Picard is a really bad shot! LOL
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
get real I think they would be grateful for being saved no matter the cost, self preservation is the strongest desire of any lifeform and being turned into emotionless machines like the borg is in fact a fate worse then death.
do you think john conner would feel guilty for wiping out the terminators, do you think van helsing would feel any guilt at wiping out all vampires and do you think the jewish people of 1920 to 1945 Germany would shed any tears that Adolf Hitler and the TRIBBLE party were wiped from existence.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
I thought this entire thread was about fiction, and I could probably have worded that better.
I don't personally know the person I replied to, but he's probably a nice guy in real life, and I appreciate his later attempt at clarifying his views. My accusation of prejudice is not meant to be an accusation of out-of-game character, but was based on my interpretation of his opinion that liberated Borg can never fully be liberated, and would always remain a threat after liberation. I think that type of logic is dangerous, and could be applied to many other species we encounter. Are we to distrust Cardassians since they might revert to attempting to occupy Bajor? Are we to distrust Romulans because their former Empire has a history of subterfuge? Are we to distrust Vulcans because they could nerve pinch us? It's true that there might be a few bad examples among each species, but the vast majority of those people are fine. The Borg are no different. Each liberated individual will have their own distinctive struggles as they regain their individuality, but that does not mean we should distrust them collectively. Work with the liberated Borg as they struggle to adapt; don't just toss them aside as a lost cause.
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It is. The word you might be looking for is "atrocity." Genocide is a specific type of atrocity, the willful seeking out and wiping out of an entire race/species from existence. Killing masses of Borg could arguably called an atrocity, but since the purpose is usually self-defense, it can't be called genocide. It would only be a proper genocide if everyone went methodically from sector to sector destroying every sphere and cube in sight as part of a grander plan to erase all traces of the Borg for no other reason but to wipe them off the face of the map.
real life or fiction I see no difference in my philosophy, just imagine we faced a real life independence day scenario, would you lay down and die for the invading alien horde or would you fight back and try to destroy every last one of those invading nasty's.
if an enemy is willing to kill to conquer then I see no reason why I should not kill the enemy to survive, sure if a nice mutually agreeable peaceful solution can be reached fine but at the end of the day if in a conflict I have to choose between me and mine over them and theirs to survive I will choose me and mine every time and I feel no shame in stating that fact.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
My character Tsin'xing
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<Keybind Tour the Galaxy> <Fleet / Armada Management> <Currency Exchange> <Other STO Links>
My character Tsin'xing
Thanks for clearing that up...I have seen the sort of personal accusations I described before from others, so it's good to know you don't stand for that.
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This tracks with the way I have approached the subject, that the Collective throws up more roadblocks with more recently freed drones (though having been in the Collective only a very short time can still sometimes counteract that).
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I tire of this conversation if you feel so strongly about this I suggest you stop playing this game as it is almost entirely based on the premise kill or be killed, I hear there is a nice my little pony MMO that might be right up your street.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
If you have a foolproof(key word) way of doing so without increasing(key word) the level of danger to your own crew, sure. But if you wind up getting some of your own people killed by trying to rescue drones rather than just destroying the cube when you had that option, you just caused unnecessary deaths. And you should not be willing to send a single one of your crew on a drone rescuing mission that you would not be willing to send your own father/mother/brother/sister/son/daughter on, because each person under your command is someone else's father/mother/brother/sister/son/daughter.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
@betayuya Got Borg?
My character Tsin'xing
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
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Yeah this sums up the approach of my character in a nutshell.
Also people arguing for why it's not possible & how it's risky/not worth it - remember that others may have a bit different "headcanon" for their character & crew. If say someone has a "headcanon" of their character working with the Cooperative directly, then it'd make even more sense for liberation to be a priority than a destruction. And while that person's "headcanon" may be irrelevant to you; they may feel that way about yours, especially if you go & get disrespectful by claiming 'but my is the only truth'. However, I am so not getting into debate 'zomg canon' not even 'headcanon' here, as canon-thumpers who use it in rather weird ways to justify their own viewpoints over everyone are... weeeeird. It was... interesting discussion until people started to dismiss other people's opinions or even tell what other people's crew should or shouldn't do, because... reasons.
That being said, happy holidays all.
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"bIghojchugh DaneH, Dumev pagh. bIghojqangbe'chugh, DuQaHlaH pagh."
"Learn lots. Don't judge. Laugh for no reason. Be nice. Seek happiness." ~Day[9]
"Your fun isn't wrong." ~LaughingTrendy
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