Collective Genocide

flash525

There's a chance that this is better suited to Ten Forward (Devs, if it is, feel free to move it), but I've a question on whenever we destroy anything to do with the Borg Collective; are we (be it the Federation, Klingon Empire, Romulan Republic, Other) committing mass genocide? Especially when we take down a Cube?

There are several thousand drones (or more) in each Cube, and although they're under the collective influence, we know that their individuality remains. Maybe genocide is the wrong choice of word (someone choose a better one if that's the case), but should we not be taking into account all the lives that we're ending each time we blow up a Borg vessel?

deaftravis05

this does belong in ten foward. Now if you were asking if we could commit this in a new borg arc that lets us take the fight to the Borg and eventually behead the queen for good... it could stay here

cidjack

Some ppl have to die so others may live.

In Star Trek online, others may die so the federation can fly their ships.

warmaker001b

It is simpler, safer to destroy the Borg Ships. You've seen in many TV episodes and movies how boarding actions go against the Borg. Remember there's a lot of them per Cube compared to even a large cruiser like a Galaxy-class.

It's like saying "We should save the lions!" when there's a pride of them getting ready to devour you.

gulberat

The policy my crews follow in their stories is that while rescue of a given drone may be attempted at the captain's discretion and is a commendable action, it is not to be attempted when the risk incurred in the attempt is unacceptable. In those cases the rules of engagement allow the Borg to be shot down on sight with no warning and it is permissible even to destroy one's ship to prevent assimilation if there's no other good option. Killing an assimilated crew member where rescue is too dangerous is considered acceptable and not an offense. Because death is considered better than assimilation, the idea of a mercy kill is acceptable.

So while rescue is considered ideal, it is firmly placed at third on the hierarchy of priorities, which are as follows:

1) Prevent Borg expansion

2) Keep the ship, crew, and its secrets out of the Collective's hands

3) Attempt rescue of drone(s) where doing so does not unacceptably risk 1 or 2.

However, a drone who regains his or her individuality and presents no threat to others is to be afforded the same respect as others. If anyone attacked my Cardassian's Liberated Borg XO, for example, they'd be up on assault charges and likely some form of conduct unbecoming if evidence showed their motive was discriminatory.

So where does this go as far as genocide...while rescue is desirable, and there would likely be agonizing over it, I suspect some of my captains and admirals would give an order they expected would wipe out the Collective or leave very few survivors. They would be sad over the huge number of opportunities to regain life that would be lost, but better dead than "living" in a torture that in my own stories (no canon proof of this part) can last centuries.

deaftravis05

just adopt picard's policy toward the Borg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiX3gq3RfvQ

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themetalstickman

I agree. While it is regrettable that the potential of sapient life is lost, assimilation of my ships or crew is unacceptable. The only time my captains would attempt a rescue is if the Borg ship in question is already disabled or disconnected, or in cases of single drones.​​

jodarkrider

Purely game-wise speaking, it is kinda irrelevant, given that we commit a mass-murder about each mission we play in STO.

On the other side, In-character & a bit of roleplaying reasoning - My character & her crew always try to liberate the Drones from the Collective first before using the lethal force. It is kinda objectionable for them if others are 'trigger happy' without even considering the individual lives lost. The Drones are victims of the Collective, who are unable to make decisions for themselves. As such, they are not responsible for the stuff they have been doing. It's even more repulsive to some of the members of the crew who are former Borg, to see how easily some individuals decide to end the lives of the Drones; as if everyone was like that, these Liberated Borg would've never get the chance to either regain their individuality, or experience the individuality. Especially in 2410, when it is relatively easy to liberate entire Cubes (See one of the Delta Quadrant patrols, with Hugh), it's kinda clear that there are ways to liberate them (disconnecting them from the Collective mind, that is; entirely re-integrating them to society is harder & makes for some interesting stories imho). So, a no-brainer for the crew of my main's character, pretty much.

markhawkman

It's only genocide if you're trying to exterminate the other race. And it's only murder if the other guy isn't trying to kill you.

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gulberat

Just goes to show you how different each character and writer is. I get the in-story logic your characters are following. In contrast there was actually an incident in one of my stories where something like an assimilation plague was starting (not Borg, but something just as devastating in the story), Cdr. Redmond actually volunteered to take the burden of carrying out a kill order issued to stop the plague's spread off of her captain of other officers. She was denied (the captain believed it was his responsibility and his alone), but just shows you how differently two people can react to the same type of trauma.

deaftravis05

I don't think Starfleet takes joy in killing the Borg, but they know it's us or them.

twg042370

There are between fifty to ten thousand lives on each ship we blow up. Assuming we blow up five of them each mission and each patrol... well, I don't care enough to do the math but each character we have justifies everything the Founders were trying to do.

gulberat

Yeah, I don't think that my crews enjoy it either. It's a great tragedy as far as they are concerned, but one that sometimes has to be done in order to spare countless others. When someone can be rescued that is to be celebrated, but not prioritized above the quadrant as a whole, or even the ship and crew given the massive intelligence coup any assimilated vessel represents to the Collective. (I should also note that in their "headcanon" versions, not all episodes are actually canon for every captain...in fact, to a majority of them, a large number of the missions are mere training simulations on the holodeck, which could also explain the body count. )

deaftravis05

Well, to me, I consider my ship and crew a special response force, the frontline unit, ever since the Battle of Vulcan, I've been dispatched to hotspots around the galaxy. If there's a crisis, I'm sent in because I've proven to be adept at black ops. So, I would consider my ship and crew Starfleet Intelligence. I have the rank of Captain, in public, but in reality, my clearance gives me the rank of Admiral. Shron can do the diplomacy, and so can I, but I don't hesitate to pull the trigger. My captain strives for diplomacy, but if the situation requires it, I will shoot the place up and find the nearest informant and beat the living TRIBBLE out of him til he spills. If he's allied forces... well... then I apply creative diplomacy. If he's not part of the Federation and our allies, I will crush his face until he caves.

What I won't do is genocide. I won't do biological warfare, chemical, mass destruction or temporal. There are lines I won't cross.

kyrrok

deaftravis05 wrote: »

just adopt picard's policy toward the Borg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiX3gq3RfvQ

And he's among the more diplomatic of captains. If he says they gotta go, they gotta go.

Unfortunately there's too much talk of "glassing" entire worlds and cultures just because certain people don't like them.

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mirrorchaos

flash525 wrote: »

There's a chance that this is better suited to Ten Forward (Devs, if it is, feel free to move it), but I've a question on whenever we destroy anything to do with the Borg Collective; are we (be it the Federation, Klingon Empire, Romulan Republic, Other) committing mass genocide? Especially when we take down a Cube?

There are several thousand drones (or more) in each Cube, and although they're under the collective influence, we know that their individuality remains. Maybe genocide is the wrong choice of word (someone choose a better one if that's the case), but should we not be taking into account all the lives that we're ending each time we blow up a Borg vessel?

kill one person youre a murderer
kill ten people youre a serial killer
kill a hundred people, youre a monster
kill a thousand people, youre a hero.

so killing trillions of drones, you must be a living god, worshipped by all.

thegrandnagus1

Simple answer: no.

Why? Borg are effectively enemy soldiers, who seek to harm you. Whether an enemy soldier is fighting because they believe in the cause or were originally drafted against their will(assimilated), if they are actively trying to harm you then the threat they pose is the same regardless of their motivation. Killing enemy soldiers who are actively trying to harm you is not genocide, and destroying a Borg cube is not genocide just because there happen to be a lot of Borg on it.

chastity1337

mirrorchaos wrote: »

flash525 wrote: »

There's a chance that this is better suited to Ten Forward (Devs, if it is, feel free to move it), but I've a question on whenever we destroy anything to do with the Borg Collective; are we (be it the Federation, Klingon Empire, Romulan Republic, Other) committing mass genocide? Especially when we take down a Cube?

There are several thousand drones (or more) in each Cube, and although they're under the collective influence, we know that their individuality remains. Maybe genocide is the wrong choice of word (someone choose a better one if that's the case), but should we not be taking into account all the lives that we're ending each time we blow up a Borg vessel?

kill one person youre a murderer
kill ten people youre a serial killer
kill a hundred people, youre a monster
kill a thousand people, youre a hero.

so killing trillions of drones, you must be a living god, worshipped by all.

"When you kill one, it is a tragedy. When you kill ten million, it is a statistic."
---Iosif Dzugashvili
(aka Joseph Stalin)

ltminns

Well, since I equipped Somog (the Ferengi Doff that accumulates GPL for each Ground combat kill), that was a Mission Reward from the first play-through of Time in a Bottle, I have accumulated somewhere about 40k GPL from him alone. Borgs and Vaadwaur primarily.

Didn't we just agonize about Genocide in a Thread a month or so ago, and the same about the Agony Rifle earlier this month.

meimeitoo

markhawkman wrote: »

It's only genocide if you're trying to exterminate the other race. And it's only murder if the other guy isn't trying to kill you.

^^ This. /thread

theraven2378

We're defending ourselves, that's how I see the Borg situation, any Borg vessel found in Alliance space will be fired on, no questions asked

artan42

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azniadeet

Living as an Individual > Dying > Living as a Drone.

Killing drones may not be an optimal solution, but it's still an improvement.

gulberat

azniadeet wrote: »

Living as an Individual > Dying > Living as a Drone.

Killing drones may not be an optimal solution, but it's still an improvement.

Tragic as it is, that's the way my characters tend to look at it. Including the one who was actually liberated from the Collective: she's grateful for her survival as an individual but still considers death the next best thing and acknowledges that often a rescue will endanger way too much to attempt.

Though I should note she went through a period of serious depression in the first years after her rescue in which she would have said that attempting a rescue was not the right choice...she's since gotten help for that (including professional) and is doing a lot better, but as I commented to @jodarkrider before, that just goes to show how different each character's reaction to the same thing can be.

jodarkrider

gulberat wrote: »

Though I should note she went through a period of serious depression in the first years after her rescue in which she would have said that attempting a rescue was not the right choice...she's since gotten help for that (including professional) and is doing a lot better, but as I commented to @jodarkrider before, that just goes to show how different each character's reaction to the same thing can be.

Well, each Liberated is different. Depending on time spent in the Collective is also a huge factor.
That being said, I am rather amazed at the amount of mostly grim responses, & that it's believed that saving a Drone's life is not worth it for most of you folks. Given in STO, in 2410, it is FAR easier than Trek series presented it, as the Borg in STO are not the top dogs anymore, technologically wise. Again, run the Delta Quad patrol with Hugh for reference.

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mirrorchaos

jodarkrider wrote: »

gulberat wrote: »

Though I should note she went through a period of serious depression in the first years after her rescue in which she would have said that attempting a rescue was not the right choice...she's since gotten help for that (including professional) and is doing a lot better, but as I commented to @jodarkrider before, that just goes to show how different each character's reaction to the same thing can be.

Well, each Liberated is different. Depending on time spent in the Collective is also a huge factor.
That being said, I am rather amazed at the amount of mostly grim responses, & that it's believed that saving a Drone's life is not worth it for most of you folks. Given in STO, in 2410, it is FAR easier than Trek series presented it, as the Borg in STO are not the top dogs anymore, technologically wise. Again, run the Delta Quad patrol with Hugh for reference.

K'Mec, she is an accomplished diplomat in Starfleet and the Federation, ironically a Klingon of all species to lead the talks, She has always been more open minded than most, even with the Borg. However the Collective dont bargain, in situations like this its kill or be killed. With the Cooperative however, she is willing to do what is needed to secure their freedom, even at the expense of the Federation if it comes to it. So the way K'Mec sees the situation, there is not alot she can do about the amount of death she has to face off against on a regular basis and try find peace where ever it is possible.

Thoedore M. Severin is more moderate, he knows that where ever the USS Esperance will be, his ship will draw trouble to it like a magnet, irrespective if he wants it or not. Death of hundreds of thousands of drones doesnt enter into his mind as the Borg made their choice and fifed first.

T'Sara is a former drone herself, she knows all too well what horrors are inflicted on others on a daily basis in the collective and how hard it is to find themselves after time in the collective, in addition to what Hakeev and the Elachi did to her, it has made T'Sara even more driven to stop the Borg.. without resorting to outright deaths of 50,000 people with no way to free themselves and caught in a position where they are just merely fodder for the borg queens own aims. To her, if she can spare the lives of 50,000 drones and free all of them to let them make the choice with full consequences to what they choose and understand it, then at least she won't be so hypocritical about destroying potential enemies who only want her dead as a target when she gave more honour then her enemies would of given her. While she is a former drone and still has a large piece of borg tech stuck to the side of her face, she has also bridged understanding between herself, her ships crew and some in the klingon empire. Honour means everything to her, so having some compassion with the borg can also lead to an honourable action if it is possible.

on the other end of the scale is Vladmir Pozhenkhov; he kills millions or trillions of enemies and don't mean anything other than targets to be destroyed, no matter how it is done, bargains and negotiations can happen but these are very rare to get. so the idea about what the borg are to him is irrelivant, they fired on him and he will destroy them as starfleet directives demand. to him in war everything is numbers and statistics.