I know the official explanation and I don't agree with it. There shouldn't be a "beta quadrant" in canon, given the sheer size of the galaxy there's no damned way a handful of powers with a few hundred worlds each cover fully half of it. No way in any kind of hell. The entirety of explored space that isn't accessed via wormhole (the Delta and Gamma quadrants) should be only a fraction of the Alpha Quadrant aka the area closest to Sol. Ever since TNG started the "oh, we're in mostly charted territory now since it's been a hundred years since the age of exploration in TOS" nonsense, the writers have lost all sense of galactic scale.
The Milky Way Galaxy is huge beyond easy imagining. The current estimate of star systems with planets in the habitable zone ranges between 20 billion and one TRILLION. The most common consensus estimate is somewhere in the 100 billion range. You tell me how the hell you can explore all that in a century or two? It can't be done. If you somehow visit one planet per day, every day for 100 years you've visited 36,500 planets which isn't even a drop in the bucket to the galaxy as a whole. Divided into four even quadrants, the standard estimate gives you 25 BILLION planets to explore in the Alpha Quadrant alone. I hope you have some time to kill, it's gonna take a while. Or basically forever. In a thousand years we won't have exhausted a full one percent of what's out there. It truly is the Final Frontier, for it is by human standards essentially endless. The job of exploring it all will be still ahead of us for generations uncounted, centuries upon centuries to come --and that's just a quarter of one galaxy, of which there are an estimated 100 billion of those!
The scale is beyond the human capacity to comprehend. You might as well call it infinity, because from our tiny perspective it is functionally identical.
The existing known space of star trek doesn't cover half of the galaxy. It mostly takes place on the border BETWEEN two quadrants. That's why we have both Alpha and Beta.
That said, ST is wildly inconsistent, and does not care much about the actual scales of things, especially in the TOS era. In ST V, Kirk flew from Nimbus to the Galactic Core, half (or more) of the same distance Voyager traveled in 7 years (with a bunch of help/jumps/wormholes/transwarps/etc.), in a couple of hours.
Don't count on ST Canon to be accurate to real life.
If you transwarped then you would make a quantum duplicate of yourself.
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
When and where was this beta quadrant stuff established? Because in DS9 and Voyager they referred to home space as the Alpha Quadrant, and as I said above with all the massive amount of space in space there's no logical reason to have the home space spread over two quadrants when there's not enough to fill more than .001% of one quadrant.
I am not really strong on primary sources (like which episode said what), but yes, DS9 and the Badlands (where Voyager left) are in the Alpha Quadrant, so Voyager wanting to return there makes sense.
However, Q'onos, Vulcan and some other worlds are established in canon (again, I am referring to secondary sources) to be in beta. And sometimes the whole empires/federations are in alpha. As has been said: contradictory. I suggest to read up a little on Memory Alpha about the inconsistencies.
And from an Earth centric view it does make sense to have Sol at the border. Over the centuries, people have either called themselves the center of the world (in which Sol would probably have defined the center of alpha) or divided the world into "West of us" and "East of us", putting themselves at the border of these regions. So when Sol stellar cartographers say "that way we call Alpha and that way we call Beta" we end up with stuff like this.
Sorry, but no it still makes no damned sense whatsoever. Sure, Starfleet would logically place Sector O1 (or 00) in the Sol System as that's where Headquarters is, but that doesn't make sense with a Quadrant system like we have. There are by definition four quadrants, and if Earth was the center then the divider would look like a + sign over the Arctic (or Sol itself) perpendicular to the planetary orbital plane. It's absolutely stupid to have quadrant A and B with the border running through planet home and quadrants C and D off somewhere else. It makes absolutely zero sense whatsoever. Even on Earth we've divided the globe into 4, North and South hemispheres and East and West hemispheres. In fact, if you place Earth at the center it makes more sense to use hemi-quadrants since you have the Z axis to account for as well. Regardless, as I said two quadrants with Earth at the center and the others off somewhere else cannot be parsed logically period.
So. We have Sector 01 (Sol System) and four Galactic Quadrants. Not only does making Earth the center of the Quadrant system make no sense for the reason I stated above, it's also stupid because it means dividing a galaxy into unequal parts based on the position of a mobile object. It's blatantly stupid and it would never get past the logical Vulcans or the prideful Andorians and Tellarites. Moreover, it's overwhelmingly likely that the Federation inherited it's basic starmapping system from the Vulcans who had been exploring space for centuries prior to humans even hitting the Industrial Age and there's no purpose in pissing off your new allies and making more work for yourself and everyone else by throwing out perfectly good maps to make new geocentric ones. Which is why I think the concept is bad, the writers never thought it through (and were contradicting each other left and right anyhow) and it needs to be retconned. Here's what I propose to take its place.
There are TWO systems of starmapping. The first, and public, one is based on four Galactic Quadrants divided by the one fixed point in the galaxy relative to everything else, the galactic center. So, everything in the "home" area of space including the Federation, Klingon Empire, Romulan Star Empire, and everything we've ever seen that isn't specifically stated to be Somewhere Else (tm) like the Delta Quadrant is situated in a cone radiating out from galactic center and encompassing a full 1/4rth of the galactic circumference. The maps in this system are positional, a 3d plotting of where stars are relative to one another, the galactic plane, and galactic center. All numerical position data is based on distance from galactic center (x axis), position along the galactic curve relative to the agreed upon quadrant lines (y axis) and above or below the central galactic plane (z axis) and measured in a unit of distance based on the speed of light. Using that, if you know the position of the quadrant lines and units of measurement OR relative distance and direction from known stars you can figure out where you are from anywhere.
The shape of this would be a lozenge encompassing the galactic disc, tapering towards the edges and bulging in the center. It would from "above" be divided into four equal parts with a + shaped intersection at dead galactic center. It would also be divided horizontally into above and below the plane of the galactic disc. Logical and orderly and uses a reference point common no matter where you are in galactic space. The Vulcans would settle for nothing less.
The second system would be a Sector system used only by Starfleet. The center, Sector 01, would be a cube or rectangle encompassing the Sol system. Sectors of equal size would surround that central sector like the blocks of a Rubik's Cube. They would be numbered /labeled similarly and the system would extrapolate from there, building block by block until you hit empty space. This system would be classified and always kept encoded so that no hostile power could simply gather a few of your coordinates and figure out right where home base is.
Honestly, someone should have figured this out long ago. Keeping to how poor writers misused terms and didn't map in any way that makes sense (dammit man, they're writers, not astronomical cartographers!) is just a recipe for confusion and foolishness.
Yeah the whole point is fubar when we still flying in 2D space, with ship scaling, planet scaling, no piloting from the bridge and no red/yellow/green alert system.
Things that don't make sense stick in my craw and make me want to rewrite them. Hell, that's how I got into writing fanfic, the overwhelming need to fix things the original writers mucked up.
Don't we all? Even if we don't write them down, I think we are all carrying some headcanon and sometimes ignore what was said on screen/in book in favor of the more suiting version.
My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
I have no problem with the placement of the systems and planets...if anything, I'd like all the quadrant maps to be bigger and harder/longer to traverse. (Covers head from incoming rocks.) One of the best modifications made, in my opinion, was the breaking down of the walls and the expansion of the quadrant maps. I really like warp 9.97! Movement from place to place takes a few minutes. Gives me time to go get a cup of coffee.
I know the official explanation and I don't agree with it. There shouldn't be a "beta quadrant" in canon, given the sheer size of the galaxy there's no damned way a handful of powers with a few hundred worlds each cover fully half of it. No way in any kind of hell. The entirety of explored space that isn't accessed via wormhole (the Delta and Gamma quadrants) should be only a fraction of the Alpha Quadrant aka the area closest to Sol. Ever since TNG started the "oh, we're in mostly charted territory now since it's been a hundred years since the age of exploration in TOS" nonsense, the writers have lost all sense of galactic scale.
The Milky Way Galaxy is huge beyond easy imagining. The current estimate of star systems with planets in the habitable zone ranges between 20 billion and one TRILLION. The most common consensus estimate is somewhere in the 100 billion range. You tell me how the hell you can explore all that in a century or two? It can't be done. If you somehow visit one planet per day, every day for 100 years you've visited 36,500 planets which isn't even a drop in the bucket to the galaxy as a whole. Divided into four even quadrants, the standard estimate gives you 25 BILLION planets to explore in the Alpha Quadrant alone. I hope you have some time to kill, it's gonna take a while. Or basically forever. In a thousand years we won't have exhausted a full one percent of what's out there. It truly is the Final Frontier, for it is by human standards essentially endless. The job of exploring it all will be still ahead of us for generations uncounted, centuries upon centuries to come --and that's just a quarter of one galaxy, of which there are an estimated 100 billion of those!
The scale is beyond the human capacity to comprehend. You might as well call it infinity, because from our tiny perspective it is functionally identical.
The existing known space of star trek doesn't cover half of the galaxy. It mostly takes place on the border BETWEEN two quadrants. That's why we have both Alpha and Beta.
That said, ST is wildly inconsistent, and does not care much about the actual scales of things, especially in the TOS era. In ST V, Kirk flew from Nimbus to the Galactic Core, half (or more) of the same distance Voyager traveled in 7 years (with a bunch of help/jumps/wormholes/transwarps/etc.), in a couple of hours.
Don't count on ST Canon to be accurate to real life.
Hey, I'm both a writer and a nerd, I think about this stuff whether I want to or not. Things that don't make sense stick in my craw and make me want to rewrite them. Hell, that's how I got into writing fanfic, the overwhelming need to fix things the original writers mucked up.
That said, I've never seen the map you posted here, and it's the only one of it's kind I've seen. Interestingly the artist has done exactly what I suggested in my subsequent post, aka divide the galaxy into equal quadrants based on the galactic center. It also has a satisfyingly small section marked off as explored space matching the realism of scale I mentioned in the post you quoted here. It's excellent work and the only map I've seen that makes sense at all.
Seeing that, I now get it about the quadrants with Sol straddling two of them. It seems a very odd choice when you're going to be inhabiting such a small portion, I would have found it more logical to have one quadrant encompass your entire setting, but at least the way the map you posted has it makes sense overlayed onto the actual galaxy. I appreciate the clarification.
That map is out of the same book (Star Trek Star Charts) that we based our placement of systems on. Again, canon contradicts itself with clockwork regularity, but this is the most comprehensive attempt I've seen of anyone trying to reconcile all of it. It's not perfect, but it is damn well researched, and well presented. Highly recommend the book.
As for the Quadrant breakdown, that's been that way since TNG. TOS defined Quadrants more like sectors. I don't disagree about the placement of Earth on the Border. I'm honestly not sure where that first popped up, but it is definitely canon. I believe Star Charts says that it's the Vulcans' doing. Something like they used the Sol Star as a navigational aid, and drew the quadrant border there. Can't remember exactly.
When and where was this beta quadrant stuff established? Because in DS9 and Voyager they referred to home space as the Alpha Quadrant, and as I said above with all the massive amount of space in space there's no logical reason to have the home space spread over two quadrants when there's not enough to fill more than .001% of one quadrant.
I am not really strong on primary sources (like which episode said what), but yes, DS9 and the Badlands (where Voyager left) are in the Alpha Quadrant, so Voyager wanting to return there makes sense.
However, Q'onos, Vulcan and some other worlds are established in canon (again, I am referring to secondary sources) to be in beta. And sometimes the whole empires/federations are in alpha. As has been said: contradictory. I suggest to read up a little on Memory Alpha about the inconsistencies.
And from an Earth centric view it does make sense to have Sol at the border. Over the centuries, people have either called themselves the center of the world (in which Sol would probably have defined the center of alpha) or divided the world into "West of us" and "East of us", putting themselves at the border of these regions. So when Sol stellar cartographers say "that way we call Alpha and that way we call Beta" we end up with stuff like this.
Sorry, but no it still makes no damned sense whatsoever. Sure, Starfleet would logically place Sector O1 (or 00) in the Sol System as that's where Headquarters is, but that doesn't make sense with a Quadrant system like we have. There are by definition four quadrants, and if Earth was the center then the divider would look like a + sign over the Arctic (or Sol itself) perpendicular to the planetary orbital plane. It's absolutely stupid to have quadrant A and B with the border running through planet home and quadrants C and D off somewhere else. It makes absolutely zero sense whatsoever. Even on Earth we've divided the globe into 4, North and South hemispheres and East and West hemispheres. In fact, if you place Earth at the center it makes more sense to use hemi-quadrants since you have the Z axis to account for as well. Regardless, as I said two quadrants with Earth at the center and the others off somewhere else cannot be parsed logically period.
So. We have Sector 01 (Sol System) and four Galactic Quadrants. Not only does making Earth the center of the Quadrant system make no sense for the reason I stated above, it's also stupid because it means dividing a galaxy into unequal parts based on the position of a mobile object. It's blatantly stupid and it would never get past the logical Vulcans or the prideful Andorians and Tellarites. Moreover, it's overwhelmingly likely that the Federation inherited it's basic starmapping system from the Vulcans who had been exploring space for centuries prior to humans even hitting the Industrial Age and there's no purpose in pissing off your new allies and making more work for yourself and everyone else by throwing out perfectly good maps to make new geocentric ones. Which is why I think the concept is bad, the writers never thought it through (and were contradicting each other left and right anyhow) and it needs to be retconned. Here's what I propose to take its place.
There are TWO systems of starmapping. The first, and public, one is based on four Galactic Quadrants divided by the one fixed point in the galaxy relative to everything else, the galactic center. So, everything in the "home" area of space including the Federation, Klingon Empire, Romulan Star Empire, and everything we've ever seen that isn't specifically stated to be Somewhere Else (tm) like the Delta Quadrant is situated in a cone radiating out from galactic center and encompassing a full 1/4rth of the galactic circumference. The maps in this system are positional, a 3d plotting of where stars are relative to one another, the galactic plane, and galactic center. All numerical position data is based on distance from galactic center (x axis), position along the galactic curve relative to the agreed upon quadrant lines (y axis) and above or below the central galactic plane (z axis) and measured in a unit of distance based on the speed of light. Using that, if you know the position of the quadrant lines and units of measurement OR relative distance and direction from known stars you can figure out where you are from anywhere.
The shape of this would be a lozenge encompassing the galactic disc, tapering towards the edges and bulging in the center. It would from "above" be divided into four equal parts with a + shaped intersection at dead galactic center. It would also be divided horizontally into above and below the plane of the galactic disc. Logical and orderly and uses a reference point common no matter where you are in galactic space. The Vulcans would settle for nothing less.
The second system would be a Sector system used only by Starfleet. The center, Sector 01, would be a cube or rectangle encompassing the Sol system. Sectors of equal size would surround that central sector like the blocks of a Rubik's Cube. They would be numbered /labeled similarly and the system would extrapolate from there, building block by block until you hit empty space. This system would be classified and always kept encoded so that no hostile power could simply gather a few of your coordinates and figure out right where home base is.
Honestly, someone should have figured this out long ago. Keeping to how poor writers misused terms and didn't map in any way that makes sense (dammit man, they're writers, not astronomical cartographers!) is just a recipe for confusion and foolishness.
Now Taco, if you spent the time writing a long post and someone only posted that pic in response rather than replying to anything you said, would you be ok with that?
When and where was this beta quadrant stuff established? Because in DS9 and Voyager they referred to home space as the Alpha Quadrant, and as I said above with all the massive amount of space in space there's no logical reason to have the home space spread over two quadrants when there's not enough to fill more than .001% of one quadrant.
I am not really strong on primary sources (like which episode said what), but yes, DS9 and the Badlands (where Voyager left) are in the Alpha Quadrant, so Voyager wanting to return there makes sense.
However, Q'onos, Vulcan and some other worlds are established in canon (again, I am referring to secondary sources) to be in beta. And sometimes the whole empires/federations are in alpha. As has been said: contradictory. I suggest to read up a little on Memory Alpha about the inconsistencies.
And from an Earth centric view it does make sense to have Sol at the border. Over the centuries, people have either called themselves the center of the world (in which Sol would probably have defined the center of alpha) or divided the world into "West of us" and "East of us", putting themselves at the border of these regions. So when Sol stellar cartographers say "that way we call Alpha and that way we call Beta" we end up with stuff like this.
Sorry, but no it still makes no damned sense whatsoever. Sure, Starfleet would logically place Sector O1 (or 00) in the Sol System as that's where Headquarters is, but that doesn't make sense with a Quadrant system like we have. There are by definition four quadrants, and if Earth was the center then the divider would look like a + sign over the Arctic (or Sol itself) perpendicular to the planetary orbital plane. It's absolutely stupid to have quadrant A and B with the border running through planet home and quadrants C and D off somewhere else. It makes absolutely zero sense whatsoever. Even on Earth we've divided the globe into 4, North and South hemispheres and East and West hemispheres. In fact, if you place Earth at the center it makes more sense to use hemi-quadrants since you have the Z axis to account for as well. Regardless, as I said two quadrants with Earth at the center and the others off somewhere else cannot be parsed logically period.
So. We have Sector 01 (Sol System) and four Galactic Quadrants. Not only does making Earth the center of the Quadrant system make no sense for the reason I stated above, it's also stupid because it means dividing a galaxy into unequal parts based on the position of a mobile object. It's blatantly stupid and it would never get past the logical Vulcans or the prideful Andorians and Tellarites. Moreover, it's overwhelmingly likely that the Federation inherited it's basic starmapping system from the Vulcans who had been exploring space for centuries prior to humans even hitting the Industrial Age and there's no purpose in pissing off your new allies and making more work for yourself and everyone else by throwing out perfectly good maps to make new geocentric ones. Which is why I think the concept is bad, the writers never thought it through (and were contradicting each other left and right anyhow) and it needs to be retconned. Here's what I propose to take its place.
There are TWO systems of starmapping. The first, and public, one is based on four Galactic Quadrants divided by the one fixed point in the galaxy relative to everything else, the galactic center. So, everything in the "home" area of space including the Federation, Klingon Empire, Romulan Star Empire, and everything we've ever seen that isn't specifically stated to be Somewhere Else (tm) like the Delta Quadrant is situated in a cone radiating out from galactic center and encompassing a full 1/4rth of the galactic circumference. The maps in this system are positional, a 3d plotting of where stars are relative to one another, the galactic plane, and galactic center. All numerical position data is based on distance from galactic center (x axis), position along the galactic curve relative to the agreed upon quadrant lines (y axis) and above or below the central galactic plane (z axis) and measured in a unit of distance based on the speed of light. Using that, if you know the position of the quadrant lines and units of measurement OR relative distance and direction from known stars you can figure out where you are from anywhere.
The shape of this would be a lozenge encompassing the galactic disc, tapering towards the edges and bulging in the center. It would from "above" be divided into four equal parts with a + shaped intersection at dead galactic center. It would also be divided horizontally into above and below the plane of the galactic disc. Logical and orderly and uses a reference point common no matter where you are in galactic space. The Vulcans would settle for nothing less.
The second system would be a Sector system used only by Starfleet. The center, Sector 01, would be a cube or rectangle encompassing the Sol system. Sectors of equal size would surround that central sector like the blocks of a Rubik's Cube. They would be numbered /labeled similarly and the system would extrapolate from there, building block by block until you hit empty space. This system would be classified and always kept encoded so that no hostile power could simply gather a few of your coordinates and figure out right where home base is.
Honestly, someone should have figured this out long ago. Keeping to how poor writers misused terms and didn't map in any way that makes sense (dammit man, they're writers, not astronomical cartographers!) is just a recipe for confusion and foolishness.
Funny, I was thinking the same thing.
But had a different photo in mind...
STO Member since February 2009. I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born! Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
I know the official explanation and I don't agree with it. There shouldn't be a "beta quadrant" in canon, given the sheer size of the galaxy there's no damned way a handful of powers with a few hundred worlds each cover fully half of it. No way in any kind of hell. The entirety of explored space that isn't accessed via wormhole (the Delta and Gamma quadrants) should be only a fraction of the Alpha Quadrant aka the area closest to Sol. Ever since TNG started the "oh, we're in mostly charted territory now since it's been a hundred years since the age of exploration in TOS" nonsense, the writers have lost all sense of galactic scale.
The Milky Way Galaxy is huge beyond easy imagining. The current estimate of star systems with planets in the habitable zone ranges between 20 billion and one TRILLION. The most common consensus estimate is somewhere in the 100 billion range. You tell me how the hell you can explore all that in a century or two? It can't be done. If you somehow visit one planet per day, every day for 100 years you've visited 36,500 planets which isn't even a drop in the bucket to the galaxy as a whole. Divided into four even quadrants, the standard estimate gives you 25 BILLION planets to explore in the Alpha Quadrant alone. I hope you have some time to kill, it's gonna take a while. Or basically forever. In a thousand years we won't have exhausted a full one percent of what's out there. It truly is the Final Frontier, for it is by human standards essentially endless. The job of exploring it all will be still ahead of us for generations uncounted, centuries upon centuries to come --and that's just a quarter of one galaxy, of which there are an estimated 100 billion of those!
The scale is beyond the human capacity to comprehend. You might as well call it infinity, because from our tiny perspective it is functionally identical.
The existing known space of star trek doesn't cover half of the galaxy. It mostly takes place on the border BETWEEN two quadrants. That's why we have both Alpha and Beta.
That said, ST is wildly inconsistent, and does not care much about the actual scales of things, especially in the TOS era. In ST V, Kirk flew from Nimbus to the Galactic Core, half (or more) of the same distance Voyager traveled in 7 years (with a bunch of help/jumps/wormholes/transwarps/etc.), in a couple of hours.
Don't count on ST Canon to be accurate to real life.
Hey, I'm both a writer and a nerd, I think about this stuff whether I want to or not. Things that don't make sense stick in my craw and make me want to rewrite them. Hell, that's how I got into writing fanfic, the overwhelming need to fix things the original writers mucked up.
That said, I've never seen the map you posted here, and it's the only one of it's kind I've seen. Interestingly the artist has done exactly what I suggested in my subsequent post, aka divide the galaxy into equal quadrants based on the galactic center. It also has a satisfyingly small section marked off as explored space matching the realism of scale I mentioned in the post you quoted here. It's excellent work and the only map I've seen that makes sense at all.
Seeing that, I now get it about the quadrants with Sol straddling two of them. It seems a very odd choice when you're going to be inhabiting such a small portion, I would have found it more logical to have one quadrant encompass your entire setting, but at least the way the map you posted has it makes sense overlayed onto the actual galaxy. I appreciate the clarification.
Comments
The existing known space of star trek doesn't cover half of the galaxy. It mostly takes place on the border BETWEEN two quadrants. That's why we have both Alpha and Beta.
You can see all of our regular ST worlds (sans Gamma Q Stuff, and Voyager Path stuff) clustered in the bottom, center of the galaxy here: https://startreklives.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/2-quadrants.jpg
That said, ST is wildly inconsistent, and does not care much about the actual scales of things, especially in the TOS era. In ST V, Kirk flew from Nimbus to the Galactic Core, half (or more) of the same distance Voyager traveled in 7 years (with a bunch of help/jumps/wormholes/transwarps/etc.), in a couple of hours.
Don't count on ST Canon to be accurate to real life.
No.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
Complain about something that matters at least =D
all hail tacofangs !!!!!!!!!!!
Don't we all? Even if we don't write them down, I think we are all carrying some headcanon and sometimes ignore what was said on screen/in book in favor of the more suiting version.
Short but powerful, I like it.
That map is out of the same book (Star Trek Star Charts) that we based our placement of systems on. Again, canon contradicts itself with clockwork regularity, but this is the most comprehensive attempt I've seen of anyone trying to reconcile all of it. It's not perfect, but it is damn well researched, and well presented. Highly recommend the book.
As for the Quadrant breakdown, that's been that way since TNG. TOS defined Quadrants more like sectors. I don't disagree about the placement of Earth on the Border. I'm honestly not sure where that first popped up, but it is definitely canon. I believe Star Charts says that it's the Vulcans' doing. Something like they used the Sol Star as a navigational aid, and drew the quadrant border there. Can't remember exactly.
Now Taco, if you spent the time writing a long post and someone only posted that pic in response rather than replying to anything you said, would you be ok with that?
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Funny, I was thinking the same thing.
But had a different photo in mind...
I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
My character Tsin'xing