1st: STO in space uses a ground combat system designed for bodytanking. The closer to the target, the more aggro you generate.
2nd: DPS addicts go for cannons, which require to be close and personal. Tanks go for beam arrays (mobility, range, FAW allowing you to pick on several enemies at once) that also let them be a little farther for the heat, giving them time to react to situations (like an overcharged borg plasma torpedo, not to mention the classic invisible one).
3rd: Crytpic introduced AP (the most used type of weapon by DPSers) Radiant (gives temporal hit points) weapons with the Iconians. Now an escort can have double their hull points thanks to that. Not to mention the reputation trait (TIER 2!!!) that gives back 2.5% of damage as healing.
Incidentally, my engineer flying an intel cruiser caps defense at 205% (lone wolf. That means I have 150%) and has enough DPS output to stay 3rd or better on the Crystaline Entity, where she can tank easily with FAW all the Tholians, all the battle (spamming polarize hull). Yes, I would prefer to have Tac skills, and the only skills I use are engineering fleet and shield frequency modulation, the toon has a plasmonic leech and several consoles that give extra energy from weapons to shields or engines
2nd: DPS addicts go for cannons, which require to be close and personal.
3rd: Crytpic introduced AP (the most used type of weapon by DPSers) Radiant (gives temporal hit points) weapons with the Iconians. Now an escort can have double their hull points thanks to that. Not to mention the reputation trait (TIER 2!!!) that gives back 2.5% of damage as healing.
Incidentally, my engineer flying an intel cruiser caps defense at 205% (lone wolf. That means I have 150%) and has enough DPS output to stay 3rd or better on the Crystaline Entity
- DPS meta switched to Beams a LONG time ago.
- Regular Antiproton has an innate CrtD modifier, which is the reason why it's so popular (among minor other things). The Radiant Antiproton loses this innate CrtD, so they are not a good choice when chasing for DPS.
- CCA heavily favors healing. So scoring 1st, 2nd or 3rd there doesn't say anything about your ship's damage potential.
Personally I find the trinity in general and the tank role in particular to be completely ridiculous. Because everyone who's ever played an RPG knows you always kill the healers first, then the glass cannons and leave the damage sponges for last. Why should enemies be deliberately made stupid enough to do the exact opposite?
Maybe some dumb bandit in a fantasy game can be somewhat plausibly tricked into attacking an overly-armored decoy by insulting his mother (or whatever the taunt mechanics actually represent) while half a dozen guys stab him in the back...but that's hardly something you'd expect professional soldiers, much less starship captains, to fall for.
The Game's engine is built off of "The Trinity." It's remnants are everywhere in the code.
You've seen the code? Great. Show the rest of us, too.
We can check the tanking stats using top DPS parse to find the what players do not see:
In typical DPS parses you only see this or just the damage parse: SCM - Infected [3/2] (S) - [01:11] DMG(DPS) - Player1: 13.77M(194.72K) Player2: 9.13M(130.66K) Player3: 6.54M(92.39K) Player4: 5.05M(72.59K) Player5: 2.97M(42.46K)
But there is so much information like this:
SCM - Infected [3/2] (S) - ATKS In: 226 ATPS: 3.18 (60.6% of Team) - Player4, 74 ATPS: 1.04 (19.8% of Team) -Player1, 11 ATPS: 0.15 (3.0% of Team) - Player2, SCM - 45 ATPS: 0.63 (12.1% of Team) - Player3, 17 ATPS: 0.24 (4.6% of Team) - Player5
It can be summarize as Player4 did 72.59K DPS or 13% of total DPS of team but took 60% of the aggro of the team.
How do I get these numbers in SCM? I only see Damage-In, but not Hits-In like in CLR (I guess that's what SCM calls ATKS In, ATPS then meaning Attacks Per Second).
How do I get these numbers in SCM? I only see Damage-In, but not Hits-In like in CLR (I guess that's what SCM calls ATKS In, ATPS then meaning Attacks Per Second).
You must have the updated version of SCM.
Player Combat Analysis Reports -> Analysis Reports -> DMG - From (% Team)
How do I get these numbers in SCM? I only see Damage-In, but not Hits-In like in CLR (I guess that's what SCM calls ATKS In, ATPS then meaning Attacks Per Second).
You must have the updated version of SCM.
Player Combat Analysis Reports -> Analysis Reports -> DMG - From (% Team)
My whole life is a lie! Quick, go tell every 100k+ player that I've drawn aggro off of that they actually died and don't remember it!
I definitely feel for the OP. Have you seen what pilot ships can do? I think your role has been obsoleted with all that min maxed immunity bs, no offense. People just don't know it yet.
Immunity doesnt draw aggro. Doesnt help the team if you are immune but cannot draw aggro.
Okay someone is doing something wrong. My Odyssey can get 73% Kinetic resist and about 70% energy resist fully buffed and a Hull regen of 100% in combat while still doing around 18,000-25,000 DPS and pulls aggro in basically any team I'm in. My highest max hit was 124,000 and usually is around 90,000-100,000.
I have tons of heals for my team-mates since half the time I don't need them. In ICA I tank and pull aggro with Gate and Cube at the same time.
In PvE I don't ever die and in PvP 1vs1 it's virtually indestructible.
Tanking is still valid role in team, you just have to know how to build it and use it.
Fleet Admiral Thomas Winston James a.k.a. The Grayfox Fleet Leader of:
Liberty Task Force/Liberty Honor Guard
Pride of the Federation/Pride of the Empire
Liberty Guardians U.S.S. Liberty, NX-42813-L, T-6 Legendary Odyssey Class
My whole life is a lie! Quick, go tell every 100k+ player that I've drawn aggro off of that they actually died and don't remember it!
I definitely feel for the OP. Have you seen what pilot ships can do? I think your role has been obsoleted with all that min maxed immunity bs, no offense. People just don't know it yet.
Immunity doesnt draw aggro. Doesnt help the team if you are immune but cannot draw aggro.
You're right but I don't think that's his point. A pilot escort can have the DPS to draw agro but can also be immune to any damage for a long time. I'm sure you saw the aux2batman video. I'm not saying it's cheesy or anything because at least it takes skill to pull it off.
An Escort can Speed Tank like a TRIBBLE with shots missing, missing, missing the Escort. The best form of defense is making your attacker miss you entirely, so far less damage hits you. The best form of repairs to perform on your ship is having to do as little repairs as possible.
No hits or less hits on you means:
- Less times to use repair abilities
- Those same repair abilities tend to be more available for when you really need it and not on CD because of constant use
This thread related to the Pilot Ships called "A Question of Survivability" is valid. Because the Pilot Ships can draw stupid amounts of aggro and avoid attacks entirely and has the means to be immune more than other Ecorts. The Pilot Ships are the extreme example of "Bonus Defense" (or to use different gaming terms... "Avoidance" or "Dodge"). ALL ships in this game are capable of Bonus Defense but the devs made the changes a very long time ago to give Escorts higher possible Bonus Defense. You need to be moving, the faster the better but there is a Soft Cap just from speed alone.
There is a Soft Cap that is harder to overcome at around the 80-90-ish mark. Pilot Ships easily break into 100 and my Reman on her Pilot Ship breaks into the 120's. Regardless, all Escorts can attain high Bonus Defense to avoid attacks entirely as they land punishing attacks.
Who needs to worry about tanking when you draw aggro doing high damage output while dodging the majority of enemy attacks? In PVE, NPCs do not have the Accuracy nor Bonus Defense players can achieve, so it's like going out Baby Harp Seal Clubbing.
You're right but I don't think that's his point. A pilot escort can have the DPS to draw agro but can also be immune to any damage for a long time. I'm sure you saw the aux2batman video. I'm not saying it's cheesy or anything because at least it takes skill to pull it off.
Surviving solo ISA does not consitute being a tank because you are not drawing aggro from anyone.
Who needs to worry about tanking when you draw aggro doing high damage output while dodging the majority of enemy attacks? In PVE, NPCs do not have the Accuracy nor Bonus Defense players can achieve, so it's like going out Baby Harp Seal Clubbing.
If you can draw aggro. Using Damage as your aggro only applies if your team is only non tanks with lower DPS. It is no different from other pure dpsers relying on DPS to aggro wherein you dont have non tanks in your team, like cookie cutter Scimitars.
If you put a pilot DPSer pilot build, it will not immediately draw 50%+ of aggro unless paired with lower DPSers who are not tanks. Multiple same skill like pilots on high performance builds on same team, will equally draw aggro or near equal like 20%, 25%, 23%, etc. not unless you put real tanks in the team.
If you put eternal, starmaster with SOB on the same team, they will equally divide that aggro or at least near equal. Not unless they have a tank like in starmasters 194k parse wherein that tank does lower dps 13% dps of the team but takes 60% aggro team.
You're right but I don't think that's his point. A pilot escort can have the DPS to draw agro but can also be immune to any damage for a long time. I'm sure you saw the aux2batman video. I'm not saying it's cheesy or anything because at least it takes skill to pull it off.
Surviving solo ISA does not consitute being a tank because you are not drawing aggro from anyone.
Read my post again and focus on the second sentence. I bolded it for you.
You're right but I don't think that's his point. A pilot escort can have the DPS to draw agro but can also be immune to any damage for a long time. I'm sure you saw the aux2batman video. I'm not saying it's cheesy or anything because at least it takes skill to pull it off.
Then, think about the science pilot ship with 4 science consoles with +threat. It's pretty easy to draw the conclusion that one can tank and draw agro in a pilot ship. Especially since it's fast enough to to get to the target earlier than any other ship. It has all the ingredients for a proper agro tank: enough DPS, enough threat, survivability (with immunity), and enough speed to get agro first.
Power creep DPS including powers to assist ganging up on an opponent, stopping shots before they can be fired
High speed tanking for all, with so many speed and turn boosts any ship can have some defense boost, you can have +100% turn rate from consoles and traits without necessarily having much of a trade-off. Dreadnaught carriers are now flown the way fast cruisers used to be when the Excelsior was the rare cruiser worth bothering with.
Area or team effect defense boosts, increased in number and cooldowns reduced for everything bar eng abilities
Supression, simply remove a portion of damage before it can hit.
Any number of ways a ship can collect damage resistance, achieving 50% resistance does not require a tank build or items costing tens of millions.
Tanking was never a thing in STO PvE. It has always been 'better' just to kill the enemy ships fast and move on.
Tanking was awesome in Season 5 PvP. If you could tank against the Klinks you were a god among mortals, nay, a god among worms! It was even a challenge back then to tank against a Fed-ball, and those who did it well remain heroes of the game to this day.
When power creep and imbalance became an insurmountable problem and the oft-neglected PvP community became persona non gratae in STO, the role of the tank became marginalized, then died quietly in the night. Since the game's focus now is solely PvE, and tanking was never intended to be a PvE ability, the role of the tank is obsolete.
It's quite a shame too, because Season 5 held so much promise for PvP. What they could have done for this game with so very little effort back then beggars the imagination. PvP could have become STO's end game, where an endless supply of buyers for the newest gear and ships would have found safe harbour between sporadic new episodes and seasons. However, the developers chose to ignore the marginal PvP community in favor of the Wannabe Kirks who were afraid to get their shiny new Gal-X's blown to smithereens by a Klink in a BoP. (How's that decision working out for you, by the way? STO on a profitable course for the foreseeable future?)
It's quite a shame too, because Season 5 held so much promise for PvP. What they could have done for this game with so very little effort back then beggars the imagination.
Lol wut? I am kinda curious what you think they could have done that would have been *that* easy....
It's quite a shame too, because Season 5 held so much promise for PvP. What they could have done for this game with so very little effort back then beggars the imagination.
Lol wut? I am kinda curious what you think they could have done that would have been *that* easy....
A system that allows captains to drop down to Tier 1 ships, (or any other level,) with nothing but Tier 1 abilities, traits, and powers, so that any captain playing at that rank is equal to any other in every aspect of the game except player skill. This would allow players who don't have an elite'd T6 ship to PvP without being just an explosive target for the power-players. In my plan any gear brought into a Tier 1 match would be temporarily reduced to white power, Tier 2 to green, etc. no matter what you equipped, so you couldn't generate more power than the captain who is still new to the game and who has not yet acquired the elite gear you have. Also, at every tier, there would be a Mk cap, so that you can bring your Mk XIV Gold beam arrays into a match, but they would perform as a weapon appropriate to that match's tier.
Currently, if you queue for a pug, (good luck with the wait,) you are matched with whoever is also queued, so you'll run into the top talent in the game, explode a lot, and decide never to PvP again. This is because you started two years too late to ever catch up with them, be it gear, tactics, or ship control skill. Similarly, if you form a group and create a Tier 1 match, even if you use Mk II phasers, you still bring your level 60 traits and captain's powers with you, so you can't even teach the new guys how to PvP because they can never beat you.
There were many posts supporting many proposals at the time. A leaderboard was one such idea, but as I said, there were many. My idea is my favorite, but I'm biased. I thought that making PvP both accessible to low levels and allowing senior players to 'drop down' to train them would generate more interest in PvP by eliminating the, "Login, explode, respawn, explode," experience which drove away so may players who were curious about PvP. My system is already supported by the "Match Level" feature of the game, so all that really would have had to be done is to code five levels of PvP and create rewards to entice players in.
The sad fact is, PvP'ers were marginalized by design choices, but PvP was the only end game STO had. Now the end game appears to be, "Buy more ships," but there is nothing to do with them other than what you were doing with your other ships already. I can already defeat any STF in my Tier 4 Recon Sci torp boat, for example.
But when PvP was still viable, PvP'ers bought every crappy ship, every console, every new gimmick Cryptic put out there. They may have been a minority, but they were a paying minority. With PvP and factional fighting there would have been an end game that demanded more and more of these super-ships which are now used only to give bragging rights to the guy who can spew massive DPS against target shields without concern for any objective which may result from that effort.
Level matching is already in game. All STO would have had to do was add 4, (at the time,) queues accessible to anyone with a ship of the appropriate tier. Far less work, and far more reward, than a new season starring some actor from one of the shows.
You're right but I don't think that's his point. A pilot escort can have the DPS to draw agro but can also be immune to any damage for a long time. I'm sure you saw the aux2batman video. I'm not saying it's cheesy or anything because at least it takes skill to pull it off.
That is linear progression. Any higher dpser will out aggro anyone with lower dps if they are all non tanks.
Long is subjective. For a pvper a few seconds is long. You need multiple minutes straight of immunity just to say it is long in pve.
Then, think about the science pilot ship with 4 science consoles with +threat. It's pretty easy to draw the conclusion that one can tank and draw agro in a pilot ship. Especially since it's fast enough to to get to the target earlier than any other ship. It has all the ingredients for a proper agro tank: enough DPS, enough threat, survivability (with immunity), and enough speed to get agro first.
I like theoretical. But you got to prove it in practice first. 5 mins is the length of the fastest elite queue record in the current mechanics. So in a normal team doing elite queue who qualifies for minimum requirements that would require 10 mins or more of immunity for the pilot tank.
I really want to see a pilot ship main tanking for 5-10 mins. I predict It is going to be one of those quirky tank build if ever it is going to work.
However, For now, it is unproven. Too many challenges that it needs to address first.
I would prefer to believe experts in tanking then random players in STO forums troll sections who have no record in pve tanking, new players to tanking better stick to Vels Gaben tier of tanking ships.
Reminds me a time(months ago) when players in this same general discussion that t6 back then will outdps and unseat scimitar and fper according to their theory. But have no proof or practice that it can happen in Pve or did happen except claims or it works in PvP.
You're right but I don't think that's his point. A pilot escort can have the DPS to draw agro but can also be immune to any damage for a long time. I'm sure you saw the aux2batman video. I'm not saying it's cheesy or anything because at least it takes skill to pull it off.
That is linear progression. Any higher dpser will out aggro anyone with lower dps.
Long is subjective. For a pvper a few seconds is long. You need multiple minutes straight of immunity just to say it is long in pve.
Then, think about the science pilot ship with 4 science consoles with +threat. It's pretty easy to draw the conclusion that one can tank and draw agro in a pilot ship. Especially since it's fast enough to to get to the target earlier than any other ship. It has all the ingredients for a proper agro tank: enough DPS, enough threat, survivability (with immunity), and enough speed to get agro first.
I like theoretical. But you got to prove it in practice first. 5 mins is the length of the fastest elite queue record in the current mechanics. So in a normal team doing elite queue who qualifies for minimum requirements that would require 10 mins or more of immunity for the pilot tank.
Remember, tanking also means proximity. That means someone doing point blank range will get more aggro than someone doing it from a farther range. Then there is also attract fire command. Pilot ship tank is going to be quirky build, since it will have many challenges including how it deals with the constant Borg tachyon beam +torp spread 3 for 5-10mins. And since you are within point blank range, tractor beams for 5-10mins. and finally, warp core breeches of within proximity tac cubes.
I really want to see a pilot ship main tanking 5-10 mins of immunity. If ever there is even a pilot ship that I don't know that can even be immune 5-10mins straight while main tanking for the team.
For now, it is unproven, I would prefer to believe experts in tanking then random players in STO forums troll sections who have no record in pve tanking, new players to tanking better stick to Vels Gaben tier of tanking ships.
Have you even flown a pilot ship? Because by the looks of this post, you have not...
I love my pilot ships
One can get a total of a little over 40 seconds of immunity each minute with healing in between the small gaps. It takes a good pilot but it's doable. I don't even know why you're arguing about this. The pilot ships are really good DPS ships and have a lot of damage mitigation and can sport nice heals. At this point, I think you're just arguing for the sake of arguing... Either that or your thinking is stuck in a very small box.
You're right but I don't think that's his point. A pilot escort can have the DPS to draw agro but can also be immune to any damage for a long time. I'm sure you saw the aux2batman video. I'm not saying it's cheesy or anything because at least it takes skill to pull it off.
That is linear progression. Any higher dpser will out aggro anyone with lower dps.
Long is subjective. For a pvper a few seconds is long. You need multiple minutes straight of immunity just to say it is long in pve.
Then, think about the science pilot ship with 4 science consoles with +threat. It's pretty easy to draw the conclusion that one can tank and draw agro in a pilot ship. Especially since it's fast enough to to get to the target earlier than any other ship. It has all the ingredients for a proper agro tank: enough DPS, enough threat, survivability (with immunity), and enough speed to get agro first.
I like theoretical. But you got to prove it in practice first. 5 mins is the length of the fastest elite queue record in the current mechanics. So in a normal team doing elite queue who qualifies for minimum requirements that would require 10 mins or more of immunity for the pilot tank.
Remember, tanking also means proximity. That means someone doing point blank range will get more aggro than someone doing it from a farther range. Then there is also attract fire command. Pilot ship tank is going to be quirky build, since it will have many challenges including how it deals with the constant Borg tachyon beam +torp spread 3 for 5-10mins. And since you are within point blank range, tractor beams for 5-10mins. and finally, warp core breeches of within proximity tac cubes.
I really want to see a pilot ship main tanking 5-10 mins of immunity. If ever there is even a pilot ship that I don't know that can even be immune 5-10mins straight while main tanking for the team.
For now, it is unproven, I would prefer to believe experts in tanking then random players in STO forums troll sections who have no record in pve tanking, new players to tanking better stick to Vels Gaben tier of tanking ships.
Have you even flown a pilot ship? Because by the looks of this post, you have not...
I love my pilot ships
One can get a total of a little over 40 seconds of immunity each minute with healing in between the small gaps. It takes a good pilot but it's doable. I don't even know why you're arguing about this. The pilot ships are really good DPS ships and have a lot of damage mitigation and can sport nice heals. At this point, I think you're just arguing for the sake of arguing... Either that or your thinking is stuck in a very small box.
Oh I do have pilot ships. But we are talking about tanking. Have you actually tanked in higher dps channels? Or just based your tanking in PvP or pure theoritical or based it from rumors?
Not arguing that pilot ships are good dps ships. I am arguing that if pilot ships can be a good tanking platform.
Which is what I want to see from those who claims it is a good tanking platform in practice especially coming from players coming from General discussions thread who have little to zero experience in pve tanking.
You're right but I don't think that's his point. A pilot escort can have the DPS to draw agro but can also be immune to any damage for a long time. I'm sure you saw the aux2batman video. I'm not saying it's cheesy or anything because at least it takes skill to pull it off.
That is linear progression. Any higher dpser will out aggro anyone with lower dps.
Long is subjective. For a pvper a few seconds is long. You need multiple minutes straight of immunity just to say it is long in pve.
Then, think about the science pilot ship with 4 science consoles with +threat. It's pretty easy to draw the conclusion that one can tank and draw agro in a pilot ship. Especially since it's fast enough to to get to the target earlier than any other ship. It has all the ingredients for a proper agro tank: enough DPS, enough threat, survivability (with immunity), and enough speed to get agro first.
I like theoretical. But you got to prove it in practice first. 5 mins is the length of the fastest elite queue record in the current mechanics. So in a normal team doing elite queue who qualifies for minimum requirements that would require 10 mins or more of immunity for the pilot tank.
Remember, tanking also means proximity. That means someone doing point blank range will get more aggro than someone doing it from a farther range. Then there is also attract fire command. Pilot ship tank is going to be quirky build, since it will have many challenges including how it deals with the constant Borg tachyon beam +torp spread 3 for 5-10mins. And since you are within point blank range, tractor beams for 5-10mins. and finally, warp core breeches of within proximity tac cubes.
I really want to see a pilot ship main tanking 5-10 mins of immunity. If ever there is even a pilot ship that I don't know that can even be immune 5-10mins straight while main tanking for the team.
For now, it is unproven, I would prefer to believe experts in tanking then random players in STO forums troll sections who have no record in pve tanking, new players to tanking better stick to Vels Gaben tier of tanking ships.
Have you even flown a pilot ship? Because by the looks of this post, you have not...
I love my pilot ships
One can get a total of a little over 40 seconds of immunity each minute with healing in between the small gaps. It takes a good pilot but it's doable. I don't even know why you're arguing about this. The pilot ships are really good DPS ships and have a lot of damage mitigation and can sport nice heals. At this point, I think you're just arguing for the sake of arguing... Either that or your thinking is stuck in a very small box.
Oh I do have pilot ships. But we are talking about tanking. Have you actually tanked in higher dps channels? Or just based your tanking in PvP or pure theoritical or based it from rumors?
Not arguing that pilot ships are good dps ships. I am arguing that if pilot ships can be a good tanking platform.
Which is what I want to see from those who claims it is a good tanking platform in practice especially coming from players coming from General discussions thread who have little to zero experience in pve tanking.
yes because for something to work in this game, it must only be done by a group that's less than 1% of the total game population /sarchasm
I guess your thinking is stuck in a very small box. Why does it have to be only certain maps with certain people to convince you of anything? You got a bit of elitism in you.
Tanking in the so called "Holy Trinity"* seems to be a role that deals less damage than the DPS role, but causes the enemy to attack him anyway, and being able to live through it because he has more self-healing or damage mitigiation abilities than others.
I never really liked "Tanking" in that way.
I prefer the D&D 4 approach to Tanking, where the role is called "Defender". Defenders have usually some more self-healing and damage mitigiation abilities, but they usually also deal more damage if the enemy doesn't focus on them, or (a bit more rarely) the enemy deals less damage to his allies.
(The D&D 4 Fighter can make bonus attacks against enemies that ignore him in favor of his allies, and a D&D 4 Shielding Swordmage can lower the damage of attacks not directed against him.)
The "Tanking" role seems too artificial and gamey with aggro mechanics, but if tanking (or defending) comes with a punishment mechanic, it makes a lot more sense to me.
I think STO's only flaw here is that they decided to have a DPS role anyway. They should have decided that every class (ship and character class) is about DPS, but the form of DPS would be different. cruisers with beams, science vessel with space magic, escorts with cannnos. Every class would also have damage mitigiation. Cruisers with heals, escorts with dodging/maneuvering, Science Vessels with crowd control.
*) I always took the word "Holy" in "Holy Trinity" to be a joke - it's not actually something you need to strive for. Seems some people here think otherwise.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Level matching is already in game. All STO would have had to do was add 4, (at the time,) queues accessible to anyone with a ship of the appropriate tier. Far less work, and far more reward, than a new season starring some actor from one of the shows.
Yeah, but there's a HUGE difference between level matching and GEAR matching. The level matching system does NOT affect gear quality, or player skills. So a level 60 with a maxed spec tree, and epic gear will still do more damage than a level 10 with white gear. Even if both are level scaled to 10. Actually it doesn't matter what level they're scaled to. The person with better stuff still has better stats.
Comments
2nd: DPS addicts go for cannons, which require to be close and personal. Tanks go for beam arrays (mobility, range, FAW allowing you to pick on several enemies at once) that also let them be a little farther for the heat, giving them time to react to situations (like an overcharged borg plasma torpedo, not to mention the classic invisible one).
3rd: Crytpic introduced AP (the most used type of weapon by DPSers) Radiant (gives temporal hit points) weapons with the Iconians. Now an escort can have double their hull points thanks to that. Not to mention the reputation trait (TIER 2!!!) that gives back 2.5% of damage as healing.
Incidentally, my engineer flying an intel cruiser caps defense at 205% (lone wolf. That means I have 150%) and has enough DPS output to stay 3rd or better on the Crystaline Entity, where she can tank easily with FAW all the Tholians, all the battle (spamming polarize hull). Yes, I would prefer to have Tac skills, and the only skills I use are engineering fleet and shield frequency modulation, the toon has a plasmonic leech and several consoles that give extra energy from weapons to shields or engines
- DPS meta switched to Beams a LONG time ago.
- Regular Antiproton has an innate CrtD modifier, which is the reason why it's so popular (among minor other things). The Radiant Antiproton loses this innate CrtD, so they are not a good choice when chasing for DPS.
- CCA heavily favors healing. So scoring 1st, 2nd or 3rd there doesn't say anything about your ship's damage potential.
You've seen the code? Great. Show the rest of us, too.
In typical DPS parses you only see this or just the damage parse: SCM - Infected [3/2] (S) - [01:11] DMG(DPS) - Player1: 13.77M(194.72K) Player2: 9.13M(130.66K) Player3: 6.54M(92.39K) Player4: 5.05M(72.59K) Player5: 2.97M(42.46K)
But there is so much information like this:
SCM - Infected [3/2] (S) - ATKS In: 226 ATPS: 3.18 (60.6% of Team) - Player4, 74 ATPS: 1.04 (19.8% of Team) -Player1, 11 ATPS: 0.15 (3.0% of Team) - Player2, SCM - 45 ATPS: 0.63 (12.1% of Team) - Player3, 17 ATPS: 0.24 (4.6% of Team) - Player5
It can be summarize as Player4 did 72.59K DPS or 13% of total DPS of team but took 60% of the aggro of the team.
Developers would do well to look at STO as an example of what not to do with their PvE design, among other things.
You must have the updated version of SCM.
Player Combat Analysis Reports -> Analysis Reports -> DMG - From (% Team)
It is the attacks, attacks % team in the table.
Aaaah! There it was hidden! Thank you very much!
Immunity doesnt draw aggro. Doesnt help the team if you are immune but cannot draw aggro.
I have tons of heals for my team-mates since half the time I don't need them. In ICA I tank and pull aggro with Gate and Cube at the same time.
In PvE I don't ever die and in PvP 1vs1 it's virtually indestructible.
Tanking is still valid role in team, you just have to know how to build it and use it.
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Pride of the Federation/Pride of the Empire
Liberty Guardians
U.S.S. Liberty, NX-42813-L, T-6 Legendary Odyssey Class
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You're right but I don't think that's his point. A pilot escort can have the DPS to draw agro but can also be immune to any damage for a long time. I'm sure you saw the aux2batman video. I'm not saying it's cheesy or anything because at least it takes skill to pull it off.
No hits or less hits on you means:
- Less times to use repair abilities
- Those same repair abilities tend to be more available for when you really need it and not on CD because of constant use
This thread related to the Pilot Ships called "A Question of Survivability" is valid. Because the Pilot Ships can draw stupid amounts of aggro and avoid attacks entirely and has the means to be immune more than other Ecorts. The Pilot Ships are the extreme example of "Bonus Defense" (or to use different gaming terms... "Avoidance" or "Dodge"). ALL ships in this game are capable of Bonus Defense but the devs made the changes a very long time ago to give Escorts higher possible Bonus Defense. You need to be moving, the faster the better but there is a Soft Cap just from speed alone.
There is a Soft Cap that is harder to overcome at around the 80-90-ish mark. Pilot Ships easily break into 100 and my Reman on her Pilot Ship breaks into the 120's. Regardless, all Escorts can attain high Bonus Defense to avoid attacks entirely as they land punishing attacks.
Who needs to worry about tanking when you draw aggro doing high damage output while dodging the majority of enemy attacks? In PVE, NPCs do not have the Accuracy nor Bonus Defense players can achieve, so it's like going out Baby Harp Seal Clubbing.
Surviving solo ISA does not consitute being a tank because you are not drawing aggro from anyone.
If you can draw aggro. Using Damage as your aggro only applies if your team is only non tanks with lower DPS. It is no different from other pure dpsers relying on DPS to aggro wherein you dont have non tanks in your team, like cookie cutter Scimitars.
If you put a pilot DPSer pilot build, it will not immediately draw 50%+ of aggro unless paired with lower DPSers who are not tanks. Multiple same skill like pilots on high performance builds on same team, will equally draw aggro or near equal like 20%, 25%, 23%, etc. not unless you put real tanks in the team.
If you put eternal, starmaster with SOB on the same team, they will equally divide that aggro or at least near equal. Not unless they have a tank like in starmasters 194k parse wherein that tank does lower dps 13% dps of the team but takes 60% aggro team.
Read my post again and focus on the second sentence. I bolded it for you.
Then, think about the science pilot ship with 4 science consoles with +threat. It's pretty easy to draw the conclusion that one can tank and draw agro in a pilot ship. Especially since it's fast enough to to get to the target earlier than any other ship. It has all the ingredients for a proper agro tank: enough DPS, enough threat, survivability (with immunity), and enough speed to get agro first.
Power creep DPS including powers to assist ganging up on an opponent, stopping shots before they can be fired
High speed tanking for all, with so many speed and turn boosts any ship can have some defense boost, you can have +100% turn rate from consoles and traits without necessarily having much of a trade-off. Dreadnaught carriers are now flown the way fast cruisers used to be when the Excelsior was the rare cruiser worth bothering with.
Area or team effect defense boosts, increased in number and cooldowns reduced for everything bar eng abilities
Supression, simply remove a portion of damage before it can hit.
Any number of ways a ship can collect damage resistance, achieving 50% resistance does not require a tank build or items costing tens of millions.
Tanking was awesome in Season 5 PvP. If you could tank against the Klinks you were a god among mortals, nay, a god among worms! It was even a challenge back then to tank against a Fed-ball, and those who did it well remain heroes of the game to this day.
When power creep and imbalance became an insurmountable problem and the oft-neglected PvP community became persona non gratae in STO, the role of the tank became marginalized, then died quietly in the night. Since the game's focus now is solely PvE, and tanking was never intended to be a PvE ability, the role of the tank is obsolete.
It's quite a shame too, because Season 5 held so much promise for PvP. What they could have done for this game with so very little effort back then beggars the imagination. PvP could have become STO's end game, where an endless supply of buyers for the newest gear and ships would have found safe harbour between sporadic new episodes and seasons. However, the developers chose to ignore the marginal PvP community in favor of the Wannabe Kirks who were afraid to get their shiny new Gal-X's blown to smithereens by a Klink in a BoP. (How's that decision working out for you, by the way? STO on a profitable course for the foreseeable future?)
My character Tsin'xing
A system that allows captains to drop down to Tier 1 ships, (or any other level,) with nothing but Tier 1 abilities, traits, and powers, so that any captain playing at that rank is equal to any other in every aspect of the game except player skill. This would allow players who don't have an elite'd T6 ship to PvP without being just an explosive target for the power-players. In my plan any gear brought into a Tier 1 match would be temporarily reduced to white power, Tier 2 to green, etc. no matter what you equipped, so you couldn't generate more power than the captain who is still new to the game and who has not yet acquired the elite gear you have. Also, at every tier, there would be a Mk cap, so that you can bring your Mk XIV Gold beam arrays into a match, but they would perform as a weapon appropriate to that match's tier.
Currently, if you queue for a pug, (good luck with the wait,) you are matched with whoever is also queued, so you'll run into the top talent in the game, explode a lot, and decide never to PvP again. This is because you started two years too late to ever catch up with them, be it gear, tactics, or ship control skill. Similarly, if you form a group and create a Tier 1 match, even if you use Mk II phasers, you still bring your level 60 traits and captain's powers with you, so you can't even teach the new guys how to PvP because they can never beat you.
There were many posts supporting many proposals at the time. A leaderboard was one such idea, but as I said, there were many. My idea is my favorite, but I'm biased. I thought that making PvP both accessible to low levels and allowing senior players to 'drop down' to train them would generate more interest in PvP by eliminating the, "Login, explode, respawn, explode," experience which drove away so may players who were curious about PvP. My system is already supported by the "Match Level" feature of the game, so all that really would have had to be done is to code five levels of PvP and create rewards to entice players in.
The sad fact is, PvP'ers were marginalized by design choices, but PvP was the only end game STO had. Now the end game appears to be, "Buy more ships," but there is nothing to do with them other than what you were doing with your other ships already. I can already defeat any STF in my Tier 4 Recon Sci torp boat, for example.
But when PvP was still viable, PvP'ers bought every crappy ship, every console, every new gimmick Cryptic put out there. They may have been a minority, but they were a paying minority. With PvP and factional fighting there would have been an end game that demanded more and more of these super-ships which are now used only to give bragging rights to the guy who can spew massive DPS against target shields without concern for any objective which may result from that effort.
My character Tsin'xing
That is linear progression. Any higher dpser will out aggro anyone with lower dps if they are all non tanks.
Long is subjective. For a pvper a few seconds is long. You need multiple minutes straight of immunity just to say it is long in pve.
I like theoretical. But you got to prove it in practice first. 5 mins is the length of the fastest elite queue record in the current mechanics. So in a normal team doing elite queue who qualifies for minimum requirements that would require 10 mins or more of immunity for the pilot tank.
I really want to see a pilot ship main tanking for 5-10 mins. I predict It is going to be one of those quirky tank build if ever it is going to work.
However, For now, it is unproven. Too many challenges that it needs to address first.
I would prefer to believe experts in tanking then random players in STO forums troll sections who have no record in pve tanking, new players to tanking better stick to Vels Gaben tier of tanking ships.
Reminds me a time(months ago) when players in this same general discussion that t6 back then will outdps and unseat scimitar and fper according to their theory. But have no proof or practice that it can happen in Pve or did happen except claims or it works in PvP.
Have you even flown a pilot ship? Because by the looks of this post, you have not...
I love my pilot ships
One can get a total of a little over 40 seconds of immunity each minute with healing in between the small gaps. It takes a good pilot but it's doable. I don't even know why you're arguing about this. The pilot ships are really good DPS ships and have a lot of damage mitigation and can sport nice heals. At this point, I think you're just arguing for the sake of arguing... Either that or your thinking is stuck in a very small box.
Oh I do have pilot ships. But we are talking about tanking. Have you actually tanked in higher dps channels? Or just based your tanking in PvP or pure theoritical or based it from rumors?
Not arguing that pilot ships are good dps ships. I am arguing that if pilot ships can be a good tanking platform.
Which is what I want to see from those who claims it is a good tanking platform in practice especially coming from players coming from General discussions thread who have little to zero experience in pve tanking.
yes because for something to work in this game, it must only be done by a group that's less than 1% of the total game population /sarchasm
I guess your thinking is stuck in a very small box. Why does it have to be only certain maps with certain people to convince you of anything? You got a bit of elitism in you.
I never really liked "Tanking" in that way.
I prefer the D&D 4 approach to Tanking, where the role is called "Defender". Defenders have usually some more self-healing and damage mitigiation abilities, but they usually also deal more damage if the enemy doesn't focus on them, or (a bit more rarely) the enemy deals less damage to his allies.
(The D&D 4 Fighter can make bonus attacks against enemies that ignore him in favor of his allies, and a D&D 4 Shielding Swordmage can lower the damage of attacks not directed against him.)
The "Tanking" role seems too artificial and gamey with aggro mechanics, but if tanking (or defending) comes with a punishment mechanic, it makes a lot more sense to me.
I think STO's only flaw here is that they decided to have a DPS role anyway. They should have decided that every class (ship and character class) is about DPS, but the form of DPS would be different. cruisers with beams, science vessel with space magic, escorts with cannnos. Every class would also have damage mitigiation. Cruisers with heals, escorts with dodging/maneuvering, Science Vessels with crowd control.
*) I always took the word "Holy" in "Holy Trinity" to be a joke - it's not actually something you need to strive for. Seems some people here think otherwise.
My character Tsin'xing