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Why the Broken Tanking in this game?

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  • lianthelialianthelia Member Posts: 7,887 Arc User
    'tanking' is not really compatible with the IP / with a space ship game

    Tanking would work fine in this game...if there was need for it...but like I said the game is broken and there is no need for it.
    Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
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  • paxdawnpaxdawn Member Posts: 767 Arc User
    lianthelia wrote: »
    'tanking' is not really compatible with the IP / with a space ship game

    Tanking would work fine in this game...if there was need for it...but like I said the game is broken and there is no need for it.

    Needing is different from choosing to play a tank or if a tank works in this game. Because you also dont need 100k+ DPS ISA aka high dps to complete any content in this game.
    beameddown wrote: »
    -snip-

    Tanks are valid in this game. Its just that players who usually complain about tanking dont know how to build tanks nor know how to pilot tanks.

    Heck, if you want to bet on it, most players who complain about tanking dont even know what stat in the combat log is the tanking/aggro stat.
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  • simeion1simeion1 Member Posts: 898 Arc User
    edited September 2015
    ryakidrys wrote: »
    simeion1 wrote: »
    If cruiser and eng are tanks....in the ideal world. Then why don't eng consoles have threat gen. Cruisers should have modifiers for threat gen and eng powers should have taunt to grab aggro.

    A taunt would auto grab the aggro off any target it is used on. Short duration that will allow it to be used numerous times in a short period.

    I've held aggro in ISA for someone doing 3.45 times the DPS of a tank, using a single +TH console and 3 points in threat gen skill....like a properly setup tank needs more gizmos to generate more threat?!?! What do you want, tanks doing 3k DPS holding aggro for folks doing 100k DPS? That's when all the hatred about tanks not pulling their weight would be true.

    I am not sure where you stand on this. Sorry are you supping the need for tanks or not. What's wrong with a tank. Pretty much anyone that knows game mechanics can do 10k dps. Pretty much any ship I'm the game can do this. This is about all the dps you really need to finish any content in this game. If all five players were parsing about that. Maybe the dps members of a team pulling more and the healers and tanks dealing less.

    I to have held aggro in ISA with five people doing 75k+ dps and I myself only running 25k. Which is respectable, But not as high as I could. I had good team support no one died I held the aggro. And the true dpsers did their job. I would prefer tanks allows me to function without having to many ships on me. Which I am use to, but would be more fun if balance was restore and the game took thought and strategy to beat PvE then throwing the latest lock box power and trait at it.

    As stated in one of the post above. People don't respect the rolls. The reason is STO is not built for them and that makes it bad game design. Just throwing DPS at something is horrible game design. If I was a developer I would be ashamed of the product that STO has become. If you needed a tank to get content done this would be a very different subject. Everyone would praise their tanks and healers. But GeKo and the team are destroying this game. If they would take a few queues a quarter and rework them. People could have it all.
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  • simeion1simeion1 Member Posts: 898 Arc User
    ltminns wrote: »
    I think the whole concept is sort of silly in this game. I could just see the Master Starship Designers at Utopia Planitia having a conference and coming up with the brilliant idea of designing a new starship that just everyone will want to shoot at.

    The object of a tank it to pull aggro with power and hit hard enough to get people's attention. Sort of like a battleship in WW2. Hits hard and takes it. Pretty much the same concept except in space.

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  • paxdawnpaxdawn Member Posts: 767 Arc User
    edited September 2015
    beameddown wrote: »
    easy
    TRIBBLE easy

    HIVE is a matter of pulling order and dps simple as that

    Prove it, show me your parse that you did hive elite. Not hive normal nor hive advance. If there already is a parse point me to your account name so I can check if you were just leeching.

    And since you said it is easy, I want a completed HSE parse wherein none of your teammates nor yourself dies nor are you allowed to bring tanks or any of the Aggronauts.
    beameddown wrote:
    the FACT is tanking is not needed for pve in sto

    Nor do you need any high performance/specialized builds in the game including high dps/100k+ dps. All one need is mission minumum requirements and common sense.
  • melineaaelemelineaaele Member Posts: 87 Arc User
    edited September 2015
    I don't get it. The skills, the ships and the obvious role of the Engineer's class buffs seem to indicate that the mechanics of STO means for Engineers to be the Tanks of this game. However, you can build an Engineer, maximize all stats geared toward Tanking, pick up everything you can that boosts aggro management and resistances...and STILL not pull aggro off that tiny little ship which is doing insane amounts of DPS.

    What good is all that resistance and all that aggro management abilities if you can't even gain aggro? Why such a broken system? Why do Engineers not have some kind of a bonus to threat generation that scales with level?

    It seems obvious that the STO mechanics intends for Engineers with big boats to be Tanks in this game. However, it also seems obvious that whoever is in charge of this game, be it Cryptic or "Perfect World", have no clue how to give Tank Captains the ability to control threat as needed against the ever so increasing and insane damage output of the DPS that just keeps going up higher and higher with almost every new update.

    So what gives? Is my analogy of this game pretty spot on? Or am I doing something terribly wrong? Upon doing some research prior to this post, I find my opinion is not unlike many others who have posted on various websites. So either we are all completely clueless on how to hold aggro without trading in our resistance for DPS, which in the end would make us useless all the way around, or the mechanics in this game are horribly flawed.

    So what gives? Any advice or insight would be extremely appreciated.

    There are several options for you to pull agro:

    1: Start healing the ships under fire, NPC ships doesnt really like healers.

    2: Cruiser Command / Attract Fire : +12.5 resistance, +100% Threat Generation for you, -50% Threat Generation for allies.

    3: Tier IV Pilot Spec / Lone Wolf II : +50% defense for 10 sec, auto shield redistribution, allies within 10k placates foes.

    4: Starship Skills / Captain Level / Threat Control : +Threat +Resists

    5: Embassy Consoles : Console - Science - Plasma-Generating Weapon Signature Amplifier [+Emit] MK XII (upgrade to mk xiv) - Increase threat by 120% (times however many you can fit) - Could also play around with the hullhealing ones


    Basically, if you cant pull agro - Youre doing something wrong. (Keep in mind, once people start using AP Delta Prime, they would prefer to keep the agro on them ;)
  • mrspidey2mrspidey2 Member Posts: 959 Arc User
    My Gorn engineer can tank just fine in his Astika. I regularly get shot to pieces by 50+ Tholians in Crystaline Catastrophe Advanced.


    What?
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  • ilithynilithyn Member Posts: 903 Arc User
    Every time people start complaining that The Holy Trinity (TM) doesn't work in this game, all I can hear is a bunch of MMO addicts who are upset that STO doesn't mindlessly copy/paste the mechanism of every other MMO out there so they can - equally mindlessly - copy/paste their tactics.
    Another source of similar great distress to them appears to be that the game doesn't force people to mindlessly follow this specific formula and that there are multiple ways to play the game. As someone said above (too lazy to track down the post) the game doesn't make you do anything or force you to play in a certain style. Yes you need to play certain stuff in a specific way if you want to have the highest DPS possible, but the game is perfectly playable with epic or even high DPS, so you don't need to do that. Unless doing so appeals to you.

    I'm no mind reader, so I have no idea what goes on in Geko's brain or the brain of any other dev in this game, so I have no idea why the game looks the way it does, but I for one am thankful to see less of the mindless copy/paste mentality of mechanics that every other MMO appears to engage in.
    Logic is the beginning of wisdom, not the end of it.
  • sdkraustsdkraust Member Posts: 524 Arc User
    edited September 2015
    I have no issue getting aggro with my Olaen, even with no threat specced, as long as the people aren't pulling 100K DPS.

    Lots of space queues I can receive %50+ of the Damage.

    This seems to be an issue with just you.
    beameddown wrote: »
    :)


    This captures STO perfectly btw ;)
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    Personally I find the trinity in general and the tank role in particular to be completely ridiculous. Because everyone who's ever played an RPG knows you always kill the healers first, then the glass cannons and leave the damage sponges for last. Why should enemies be deliberately made stupid enough to do the exact opposite?

    Maybe some dumb bandit in a fantasy game can be somewhat plausibly tricked into attacking an overly-armored decoy by insulting his mother (or whatever the taunt mechanics actually represent) while half a dozen guys stab him in the back...but that's hardly something you'd expect professional soldiers, much less starship captains, to fall for.
  • paxdawnpaxdawn Member Posts: 767 Arc User
    edited September 2015
    sdkraust wrote: »
    I have no issue getting aggro with my Olaen, even with no threat specced, as long as the people aren't pulling 100K DPS.

    Lots of space queues I can receive %50+ of the Damage.

    This seems to be an issue with just you.

    Like I said my previous posts, Certain Players dont even know what the aggro stat is. And it is not Damage in or damage you receive. You can have less aggro but get more Damage in or less damage in but more Aggro.

    Damage in skews the stat if your build have lower resistance compared to your teammates, or you are purposely getting damage for GDF/FS. Damage in/receive is one of the stats I base on how much general mitigation my ship/build is by comparing it to base damage in/receive.
  • gradiigradii Member Posts: 2,824 Arc User
    I know this is going to come as a shock.. but Tanking, as in drawing fire, is a TACTICAL thing.

    "He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
    Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
    he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
    In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
    He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
    He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
    He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
    He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
  • navar#3536 navar Member Posts: 198 Arc User
    I don't get it. The skills, the ships and the obvious role of the Engineer's class buffs seem to indicate that the mechanics of STO means for Engineers to be the Tanks of this game. However, you can build an Engineer, maximize all stats geared toward Tanking, pick up everything you can that boosts aggro management and resistances...and STILL not pull aggro off that tiny little ship which is doing insane amounts of DPS.

    What good is all that resistance and all that aggro management abilities if you can't even gain aggro? Why such a broken system? Why do Engineers not have some kind of a bonus to threat generation that scales with level?

    It seems obvious that the STO mechanics intends for Engineers with big boats to be Tanks in this game. However, it also seems obvious that whoever is in charge of this game, be it Cryptic or "Perfect World", have no clue how to give Tank Captains the ability to control threat as needed against the ever so increasing and insane damage output of the DPS that just keeps going up higher and higher with almost every new update.

    So what gives? Is my analogy of this game pretty spot on? Or am I doing something terribly wrong? Upon doing some research prior to this post, I find my opinion is not unlike many others who have posted on various websites. So either we are all completely clueless on how to hold aggro without trading in our resistance for DPS, which in the end would make us useless all the way around, or the mechanics in this game are horribly flawed.

    So what gives? Any advice or insight would be extremely appreciated.

    There are several options for you to pull agro:

    1: Start healing the ships under fire, NPC ships doesnt really like healers.

    2: Cruiser Command / Attract Fire : +12.5 resistance, +100% Threat Generation for you, -50% Threat Generation for allies.

    3: Tier IV Pilot Spec / Lone Wolf II : +50% defense for 10 sec, auto shield redistribution, allies within 10k placates foes.

    4: Starship Skills / Captain Level / Threat Control : +Threat +Resists

    5: Embassy Consoles : Console - Science - Plasma-Generating Weapon Signature Amplifier [+Emit] MK XII (upgrade to mk xiv) - Increase threat by 120% (times however many you can fit) - Could also play around with the hullhealing ones


    Basically, if you cant pull agro - Youre doing something wrong. (Keep in mind, once people start using AP Delta Prime, they would prefer to keep the agro on them ;)

    Now number 3 was very helpful. Thank you for that.

    As far as me being new, yes and no. I Beta tested this game, played from pre-release, in to launch and played the game until the cloaking graphics change/nerf. I was pretty butt hurt over that change. I came back to the game about two months later and played until the lock boxes were created and PW took over. I came back to the game about three months ago and am trying to relearn the game's new mechanics. So far what I have learned from this thread is that no particular class is needed, a majority of players feel Tanks are useless and the mechanics of this game does not require Tanks to build successful teams.

    However, for those of us who still prefer to build Tanks, there are two options to me that were mentioned in this thread that I was unaware of, which I am grateful to those who brought these options up. First, we have the Science Consoles that can be obtained through Fleet. I am working on getting one of those now. Should have one by later this afternoon. Second, is the Pilot Skill Lone Wold II. I'll be looking in to that as well. Otherwise I think I pretty much have everything else covered.

    In other words, this thread has been very educational in showing me both sides of the argument and also giving me helpful tips on how to build a Tank ship that actually gains and holds aggro. Thanks for the replies, people. Very helpful information indeed.

  • thetaninethetanine Member Posts: 1,367 Arc User
    Whether or not anyone, including Cryptic and Perfect World, says it, Star Trek Online is a SINGLE PLAYER GAME.

    JUST LIKE the TV shows and Movies, there is only ONE SHIP. ONE CAPTAIN.

    Everyone else is merely a supporting actor. Including all of the other real life people controlled characters, sometimes called Toons, are actually no part what so ever of your activity in STO. They are all Non Player Characters.

    The sooner that stark reality seeps into people's skulls, the sooner they'll be more adept at this game. Escorts can slot ENG and SCI no problem. Escorts Do NOT Need Escorts, in the form of Cruisers or Science ships. Escorts rule the game. DPS rules the game. The faster you can kill the most powerful foe in space or ground battle, determines the grade of prize you receive. Doing more, faster, gets you the brightest shiney to be had for that encounter.

    Now, deep breaths. In and Out. Then say, STO is Singleplayer Trek Online. Keep breathing, and go get yourself an escort class starship. Or the ROM / KDF equivalent.

    PEACE \\//,​​
    STAR TREK
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  • sennahcheribsennahcherib Member Posts: 2,823 Arc User
    why an engineer should tank and use big fat cruisers?
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    sdkraust wrote: »
    I have no issue getting aggro with my Olaen, even with no threat specced, as long as the people aren't pulling 100K DPS.

    Lots of space queues I can receive %50+ of the Damage.

    This seems to be an issue with just you.
    beameddown wrote: »
    :)


    This captures STO perfectly btw ;)
    I forget where but somebody once posted some math regarding threat that showed speccing threat was actually far less important for drawing aggro than doing DPS.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
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  • tinkerstormtinkerstorm Member Posts: 853 Arc User
    ilithyn wrote: »
    Every time people start complaining that The Holy Trinity (TM) doesn't work in this game, all I can hear is a bunch of MMO addicts who are upset that STO doesn't mindlessly copy/paste the mechanism of every other MMO out there so they can - equally mindlessly - copy/paste their tactics.
    Another source of similar great distress to them appears to be that the game doesn't force people to mindlessly follow this specific formula and that there are multiple ways to play the game. As someone said above (too lazy to track down the post) the game doesn't make you do anything or force you to play in a certain style. Yes you need to play certain stuff in a specific way if you want to have the highest DPS possible, but the game is perfectly playable with epic or even high DPS, so you don't need to do that. Unless doing so appeals to you.

    I'm no mind reader, so I have no idea what goes on in Geko's brain or the brain of any other dev in this game, so I have no idea why the game looks the way it does, but I for one am thankful to see less of the mindless copy/paste mentality of mechanics that every other MMO appears to engage in.
    You are WAAAAAAY out of date. Real MMOs expanded beyond the trinity more than a decade ago. STOs problem is there is only one viable profession and only one purpose to each and every single character: DPS on top of more DPS. It's a concept developed for and supported by players only capable of one-dimensional thinking.

  • sdkraustsdkraust Member Posts: 524 Arc User
    paxdawn wrote: »
    sdkraust wrote: »
    I have no issue getting aggro with my Olaen, even with no threat specced, as long as the people aren't pulling 100K DPS.

    Lots of space queues I can receive %50+ of the Damage.

    This seems to be an issue with just you.

    Like I said my previous posts, Certain Players dont even know what the aggro stat is. And it is not Damage in or damage you receive. You can have less aggro but get more Damage in or less damage in but more Aggro.

    Damage in skews the stat if your build have lower resistance compared to your teammates, or you are purposely getting damage for GDF/FS. Damage in/receive is one of the stats I base on how much general mitigation my ship/build is by comparing it to base damage in/receive.

    I can get 50+% Defense Rating because of Council of Thought and other things specced.

    My Full Stop Defense Rating is 10-20% when the base is -10% or whatever.

    Hoping that Defense actually does something in PVE tho'.
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  • paxdawnpaxdawn Member Posts: 767 Arc User
    edited September 2015
    beameddown wrote: »
    so let me get this strait:
    you contribution to the debate for the OP was all class/roles are viable with no explanation to back your view, theres no need for insane high dps with no examples to back your view,

    Check out the parses and see for yourself. You can even check some of Videos. No need to be lazy. I dont spoonfeed people in STO forums. Some of them even are posted in the general discussion in the past few weeks or past few months. Sorry, you have to do it yourself, find it yourself.

    Now for your proof, I dont see proof of your claims. All I see is a 46k Parse in ISA with 0 parse in HSE with the same account name as your forum name. So your claim that Hive Space Elite is easy is a sham.
    beameddown wrote: »
    I have met tons of TRIBBLE in pvp in sto over the years,
    doing Pvp does not equate being good at PvE. For example, Tanking in PvP is totally different in Tanking in PvE. Because if you bring a PvP tank to PvE, it will most likely be a turtle and become useless tank for team in PvE since that PvP tanks does not generate threat or aggro to get it from DPSers.

    You are useless in this thread because you dont know anything about tanking in PvE and expecting to equate knowledge in PvP equals PvE godlike powers.
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  • paxdawnpaxdawn Member Posts: 767 Arc User
    @beameddown

    You make a lot of nonsense talk. Besides I don't have any video me tanking with a scimitar. What I said is you should make an effort in searching for data rather keep doing nonsense talk, without basis, when you have clearly have no idea how to tank in pve. Parse contains a lot of things besides dps, which includes heals, how much damage the mobs do, even tanking stat. You can even search this thread about the basics of information and videos about tanking by ryakdryis.

    To summarize my point, PvE tanking is not dead. Nor is it required, Just like any speciliaities in this game like high dps of 100k+ dps, not required for minimum requirements of completion.

    There is no proof that tanking is broken except random players in STO forums. there are other successful tanks out there besides ryakdryis with their videos and their parses. You just need to make an effort to search for it.
  • rmy1081rmy1081 Member Posts: 2,840 Arc User
    Just a few things:

    Vel a while ago posted a conversation he had with Borticus. Borticus pretty much said the agro system is a ground agro system where distance to the target matters. The closer one is to the target the easier it is to hold agro. this makes sense on ground where you want the "tank" up and close to the npc but in space it's a bit awkward.

    Also, I don't think it's been fixed but, Warp Shadows completely breaks agro. After it's used, the NPC will jump from target to target leaving the "tank" unable to keep agro no matter what.

    Knowing those two things can help one hold (or get rid of) agro. There's always exceptions like in Borg Disconnected. Every once in a while a sphere will agro on someone across the map and there is no way break it besides killing the bugged sphere.
  • darkknightucfdarkknightucf Member Posts: 1,546 Media Corps
    warpangel wrote: »
    Personally I find the trinity in general and the tank role in particular to be completely ridiculous. Because everyone who's ever played an RPG knows you always kill the healers first, then the glass cannons and leave the damage sponges for last. Why should enemies be deliberately made stupid enough to do the exact opposite?

    Maybe some dumb bandit in a fantasy game can be somewhat plausibly tricked into attacking an overly-armored decoy by insulting his mother (or whatever the taunt mechanics actually represent) while half a dozen guys stab him in the back...but that's hardly something you'd expect professional soldiers, much less starship captains, to fall for.

    The Game's engine is built off of "The Trinity." It's remnants are everywhere in the code.

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  • timelord79timelord79 Member Posts: 1,852 Arc User
    FAW and maybe Torp spread could use a +threat component imo. Might Even discourage a couple of players from overusing those in pve.
    11750640_1051211588222593_450219911807924697_n.jpg
  • bernatkbernatk Member Posts: 1,089 Bug Hunter
    I think STO is fine. Also RPG trinity only works if the game monetization allows it. STO is monetized thru selling power and I'm glad it's that way. Everyone is allowed to play this game in its whole entirety from start to finish.
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  • gardatgardat Member Posts: 280 Arc User
    edited September 2015
    There are no "raid" mechanics that require a single tank.

    Just tank for yourself and burn everything down. Press buttons when you need to and that's basically it.

    Everyone can self heal anyway.
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