Its too late to do anything radical, not without COMPLETELY TRIBBLE over everyone who has spent time and resources obtaining gear and fully upgrading it to Mk XIV epic.
Agreed with you 100%
I don’t understand how peeps can even ask for this.
Upgrade costs to mk14 are approx. 350k Dil/toon. Epic probably 10 times as much.
No thank you, your suggestions comes as close to take away 1 year of game effort as it can get. Before the upgrade I may have though about it but under current game design no way.
Post edited by peterconnorfirst on
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Oh God yes. It's such a bad idea to allow stacking of consoles when a game has such balance issues. Make people be more creative than "I'll use 5 AP damage boost consoles!" And they don't even have diminishing returns either!
And while your at it... no stacking Active Doffs either.
Cryptic did it before, they can do it again. Make a buyback console that refunds your Dil/Fleet creds. That'd stop the whining about now useless consoles. Cryptic could also introduce some new consoles to help fill out the empty slots in your Tac row. If done intelligently (that's asking a lot, I know) it could be done with a minimum of whining.
I agree, they need to limit these consoles and put a cap on capabilities. In fact, there should be negatives if you push your ship too hard (going above 125 power), like blowing out plasma conduits or causing malfunctions.
And there needs to be a balance where the more Defense you have, the weaker your attacks. And the stronger your Attacks, the weaker your defenses. Then maybe this game will return to being an MMO than an online-ship arcade.
As many locators as I have tac slots, as many Embassy consoles as I have Sci slots which leaves only a few other slots to fill.
Makes build extremely boring and makes pretty much all the same.
No one is forcing you to follow 'the norm.' If you find the current method boring, then do your own thing.
You can build how you wish without altering what everyone else does. If you don't like the 'meta,' simply don't follow it. There is no need to call for others to be forced to change as well.
Is this another PvP thing? If so, then learn to adapt and stop messing up the game for the majority (who do not PvP at all) with your constant agitation for nerfing this and nerfing that. Generally, nerfing is not the answer. If X be OP, then buff Y and Z, and leave X alone.
If it's just DPSers who have now bored themselves after pursuing the Holy Grail of Deeps, you have no-one but yourself to blame for your boredom. Nobody forced you to go ramp it up to 11; you did that all on your own.
I think it's a good idea, like @dracounguis says I'm of the mind that it should be across the board and not limited to consoles alone. Ultimately it's a decision like this that adds to the creep, and I'd always favour more variety over more of the same.
It has to be said as well. Yes no-one is forcing me to upgrade gear...but no-one forced you to pay that cost either.
If you don't like the DPS race then don't do it. You have the freedom to choose.
Offense has no diminishing returns, but resistances have very sharp diminishing returns.
Offense has diminishing returns, like cat1 bonuses e.g. Tac consoles. Even at cat2 bonus, if you get too much of it that's why you prefer the dmg mod for weapons too little of cat2 in your build you go for crtd mods. There is is also a limit of how much dps one team can do in a mission like ISA. Too much of dps would mean players eating each other's DPS. That is why at a certain level of dps someone needs to nanny or someone have to sacrifice their dps to avoid eating the one running for a record run.
I really wish people would learn to play the Star Trek Online we have. Instead of asking for a Star Trek Online where the Law of Unintended Consequences would be running amok.
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If you don't like the DPS race then don't do it. You have the freedom to choose.
Offense has no diminishing returns, but resistances have very sharp diminishing returns.
But this doesn't mean it's actually imbalanced. Resistances have diminishing returns, but that is because otherwise it would be better than offense.
I can go through all the mathematical examples again, but I try to keep it simple.
100 % bonus damage cannot beat 100 % resistance.
100 % bonus damage does cancel out 50 % resistance.
50 % bonus damage is cancelled out by 33 % resistance.
Resistances need to have diminishing returns even when offensive bonuses do not have them, because the net effect on your survival is not linear. Adding 10 % resistance when you have none means a lot less then adding 10 % resistance when you have 50 %, or adding 10 % when you have 90 %.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
The more I think about it, the more I think it could be very easily done.
People moaning about upgrade costs and so on, for things they have already upgraded.... ? Make them account bound so they can be moved to other toons. I have done that with crafted weapons when upgrading from CrtDx3 to DMGx3. Works a treat. Also EPS consoles have been switched to other toons, like the exciter which now has no place due to stacking Embassy consoles.... :-(
Not saying remove stacking and keep the consoles we have right now. Add more of them !
Tac consoles ?
We can stack the following consoles....
1. Energy Type console as we have now.
2. Beam console as we have now.
3. Add Kinetic DMG to a beam.
4. Add radiation dmg to a beam.
5. Add XXXx dmg to a beam....
6. Narrow the beam giving a higher crit chance ?
7. Blah, Blah....
Point being you can add so many combinations of console if needed.
There might be hundreds of different types of build that all come within a few thousand dps of each other, but they re not the same builds !
There will no longer be a one build to rule them all. No longer using 2-3 consoles for an entire ship to reach 75k+ DPS.
Builds will require some thought, some effort..........
You could in theory even fit 5 tac consoles with no real problem.
- 1 energy console (potentially 2 if you go the energy type + beam/cannon type)
- 1 torpedo console
- 1 Locator
- 1 Exploiter
- 1 Reputation tac console (depending on available space)
My God maybe even using mines would be feasible.
I can replace them with a regular beam vulnerability locator and the Counter-Command Multi-Conduit Energy Relay and boost an item set which I normally don't get the full use of, because of those goshdarned tactical consoles that I have to stack in order to be competitive. So I take a minor dps hit in exchange for more versatility. I'm sold on the idea!
You can do that now without altering what other people do.
You don't have to 'be competitive' because unless you're playing PVP you're not competing with anyone. If you replace 2 of your locators with a +Beam and CC Energy Relay, no one helping you fight the Crystaline Entity will ever know the difference.
Any of you claiming you want a nerf under the illusion of creating parity have things very wrong. Never at any point has Parity been created by nerfing things. Parity is created by giving alternate options. If Cryptic wants people to stop stacking Locators/Exploiters then simply make other Tactical Only consoles that are worth using and make people choose which ones work best for what they're doing. You create variety by creating other options, not by reducing the effectiveness of the options already present.
Nerfs never cause parity, it just causes everyone to jump on the 'next big thing.'
Any of you claiming you want a nerf under the illusion of creating parity have things very wrong. Never at any point has Parity been created by nerfing things. Parity is created by giving alternate options. If Cryptic wants people to stop stacking Locators/Exploiters then simply make other Tactical Only consoles that are worth using and make people choose which ones work best for what they're doing. You create variety by creating other options, not by reducing the effectiveness of the options already present.
Best post on topic in my opinion.
I think cryptic is doing it. You know not all over night but slowly. I think they have just a hard time to look first what to bring into the game and what not to.
For science the new research lab consoles are surely worth a look and a nice start here. I also kinda like the sci console from butterfly. Its quiet decent and feels on par even with 200 lobi consoles.
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Any of you claiming you want a nerf under the illusion of creating parity have things very wrong. Never at any point has Parity been created by nerfing things. Parity is created by giving alternate options. If Cryptic wants people to stop stacking Locators/Exploiters then simply make other Tactical Only consoles that are worth using and make people choose which ones work best for what they're doing. You create variety by creating other options, not by reducing the effectiveness of the options already present.
Best post on topic in my opinion.
I think cryptic is doing it. You know not all over night but slowly. I think they have just a hard time to look first what to bring into the game and what not to.
For science the new research lab consoles are surely worth a look and a nice start here. I also kinda like the sci console from butterfly. Its quiet decent and feels on par even with 200 lobi consoles.
yes, i agree. no need to change the current system. it is more interesting to add new stuff. at least, nobody will be fu.... up
1. It's to late to apply any sort of punishment for stacking damage dealing consoles. To many players have spent countless hours grinding, countless money on procurement and countless Dillithium on upgrading. If they were to implement that system next week, they'd have to refund 50% of what they've made in the last 3 years.
2. The game is to focused on blowing things up as quickly as possible. If season 11 had few combat missions and more diplomatic/ story telling missions, the game would return to it's Star Trek core. But then that would anger the DPS obsessed players that have gotten accustomed to blowing things up quickly. They will demand another overpowered ship, like a T6 Scimitar, or single Tactical consoles that give a greater boost in damage. Instead of Stacking 3 consoles that boost Antiproton damage 30% each, they will demand one console that boosts antiproton damage 50%.
3. I've noticed that the hull of some NPC ships is 120,000 in the Delta quadrant. In a way, increasing the hull is a cheap way of making the game more difficult, but it still doesn't change the dynamic of the game. The DPS'ers will start to complain that it's not fair that an NPC has 3x times the hull that they have, or that it takes them 5 minutes to take down one NPC. Thus, they will demand some other change in the game to compensate for their inablility to stack multiple consoles.
I'm not making DPS'ers out to be the bad guy, but most of the whales in this game are DPS'ers. They know they hold the money, and they know they have influence in the direction of this game, that is why Cryptic continuously caters to their requests at the expense of others. My point is, whatever cryptic decides to do, the DPS'ers will always bring up the nerfing of their precious builds as an excuse to be compensated. Cryptic has created this monster, now they must slay it somehow.
One day Cryptic will be free from their Perfect World overlord. Until that day comes, they will continue to pamper the whales of this game, and ignore everyone that isn't a whale.
Cryptic has created this monster, now they must slay it somehow.
It's funny you mentioned this. DPS is an illusion. It's an arbitrary number assigned by Cryptic. It doesn't matter what that number is because Cryptic will always balance it out so that you complete a mission in X amount of time. So if now you have 100k DPS to go against a 1M HP NPC, and if somehow Cryptic scaled everything down, and that number was whittled down to 10k DPS, they will give you a 100k HP NPC to kill to balance out the time. And newsflash, only a small number of the player base will hit that magic new max number. Repeat cycle.
I will agree with others, nerfing is less effective than buffing and just pisses us off. Cryptic's resolution to AUX2BAT builds was very well thought out. It isn't obsolete but other alternatives with their owns pros/cons now exist. I hope they keep this approach.
UGGGH, more discussions about nerfing things. If people want to focus on DPS, then let them do that. I dont see why everyone has to get in a fit about "oh their ship is stronger than mine! UNFAIR!". If you wanted them to remove this, shouldve brought it up in the very beginning. I and many other people spend a lot of time and sometimes money to acquire and upgrade high end consoles to stack. If you don't like it, ignore it. Nerfing never works, it just angers people. Stop trying ot get people to play your playstyle.
it's not just stacking that caused the massive power creep. as noted above spire consoles embassy consoles locator consoles all the "useless" engineering and science consoles that have weapon enhancing mods did it far more.
I would like to see the whole sacking thing be reduced to no more than 2 consoles. the dual purpose consoles like embassy consoles need to go away. utilizing SETS to boost damage is far more interesting. imagine a Phantom escort where only 2 phaser consoles will boost your phaser beams. what do you do with the other three slots? the heavy phaser lance is a no prainer.. do you go to a hybrid design and try a rainbow warrior? add two photon consoles and throw the gravimetric on?
it's not just stacking that caused the massive power creep. as noted above spire consoles embassy consoles locator consoles all the "useless" engineering and science consoles that have weapon enhancing mods did it far more.
I would like to see the whole sacking thing be reduced to no more than 2 consoles. the dual purpose consoles like embassy consoles need to go away. utilizing SETS to boost damage is far more interesting. imagine a Phantom escort where only 2 phaser consoles will boost your phaser beams. what do you do with the other three slots? the heavy phaser lance is a no prainer.. do you go to a hybrid design and try a rainbow warrior? add two photon consoles and throw the gravimetric on?
I'll tell you what would happen with that Phantom. Everyone would find the next best alternatives and that would be the new Meta. Then everyone would run that exact configuration because that would be the obvious 'best.'
Now, on the other side, what if they instead offered other consoles that were as good as those Locators but gave different bonuses which encouraged other types of builds. Maybe instead of boosting Crit, there were consoles that synergized with the damage mod, or ones that gave you bonuses based on accuracy.. a mod that's currently worthless? That is how you encourage other types of builds, nerfing the 'best option' only causes the masses to move to the next best thing.
Once again I say it.. nerfing items does not create parity. It never has and it never will.
So like ships with 5 tac consoles would be hurting as there is really only 2 choices to put in these slots. Spire console or universals. Sci and Eng have plenty options, but Tac just doesn't.
Not completely true. Krenim lab consoles are great for science officers trying to buff their sci skills. And can prove as or more beneficial.
On another note:
One of the things to take into account, is many use the embassy consoles for their Threat tanks. Make them unique and you kill more than just DPS builds.
Did you want to stack Fleet mine consoles? Guess what if you take way the tac and science consoles, take that away as well.
You could make a pure universal console ship setup but you wouldn't have nearly the buffing to things to make any of it usable.
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So like ships with 5 tac consoles would be hurting as there is really only 2 choices to put in these slots. Spire console or universals. Sci and Eng have plenty options, but Tac just doesn't.
There are more than two choices. Whether you're running beams or cannons, there are beam bonus consoles and cannon bonus consoles as well as consoles for a specific energy type. All of these come in the crit chance and crit damage flavor. By forcing the use of different kinds, you would effectively be reducing the percentage bonus overall to some degree. It would still be pretty darn good, just not quite as high as stacking all anti-proton crit chance consoles. The beam and cannon consoles at Epic I believe go to 32% while the energy weapon type at Epic go to 37% . So, looking at that, you would be dropping some damage if you were forced to use both along with a mix of crit chance consoles and crit damage consoles.
Comments
Agreed with you 100%
I don’t understand how peeps can even ask for this.
Upgrade costs to mk14 are approx. 350k Dil/toon. Epic probably 10 times as much.
No thank you, your suggestions comes as close to take away 1 year of game effort as it can get. Before the upgrade I may have though about it but under current game design no way.
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Oh God yes. It's such a bad idea to allow stacking of consoles when a game has such balance issues. Make people be more creative than "I'll use 5 AP damage boost consoles!" And they don't even have diminishing returns either!
And while your at it... no stacking Active Doffs either.
Cryptic did it before, they can do it again. Make a buyback console that refunds your Dil/Fleet creds. That'd stop the whining about now useless consoles. Cryptic could also introduce some new consoles to help fill out the empty slots in your Tac row. If done intelligently (that's asking a lot, I know) it could be done with a minimum of whining.
And there needs to be a balance where the more Defense you have, the weaker your attacks. And the stronger your Attacks, the weaker your defenses. Then maybe this game will return to being an MMO than an online-ship arcade.
No one is forcing you to follow 'the norm.' If you find the current method boring, then do your own thing.
You can build how you wish without altering what everyone else does. If you don't like the 'meta,' simply don't follow it. There is no need to call for others to be forced to change as well.
Agreed 100% ^^^^
It has to be said as well. Yes no-one is forcing me to upgrade gear...but no-one forced you to pay that cost either.
Offense has no diminishing returns, but resistances have very sharp diminishing returns.
Offense has diminishing returns, like cat1 bonuses e.g. Tac consoles. Even at cat2 bonus, if you get too much of it that's why you prefer the dmg mod for weapons too little of cat2 in your build you go for crtd mods. There is is also a limit of how much dps one team can do in a mission like ISA. Too much of dps would mean players eating each other's DPS. That is why at a certain level of dps someone needs to nanny or someone have to sacrifice their dps to avoid eating the one running for a record run.
I really wish people would learn to play the Star Trek Online we have. Instead of asking for a Star Trek Online where the Law of Unintended Consequences would be running amok.
I can go through all the mathematical examples again, but I try to keep it simple.
100 % bonus damage cannot beat 100 % resistance.
100 % bonus damage does cancel out 50 % resistance.
50 % bonus damage is cancelled out by 33 % resistance.
Resistances need to have diminishing returns even when offensive bonuses do not have them, because the net effect on your survival is not linear. Adding 10 % resistance when you have none means a lot less then adding 10 % resistance when you have 50 %, or adding 10 % when you have 90 %.
People moaning about upgrade costs and so on, for things they have already upgraded.... ? Make them account bound so they can be moved to other toons. I have done that with crafted weapons when upgrading from CrtDx3 to DMGx3. Works a treat. Also EPS consoles have been switched to other toons, like the exciter which now has no place due to stacking Embassy consoles.... :-(
Not saying remove stacking and keep the consoles we have right now. Add more of them !
Tac consoles ?
We can stack the following consoles....
1. Energy Type console as we have now.
2. Beam console as we have now.
3. Add Kinetic DMG to a beam.
4. Add radiation dmg to a beam.
5. Add XXXx dmg to a beam....
6. Narrow the beam giving a higher crit chance ?
7. Blah, Blah....
Point being you can add so many combinations of console if needed.
There might be hundreds of different types of build that all come within a few thousand dps of each other, but they re not the same builds !
There will no longer be a one build to rule them all. No longer using 2-3 consoles for an entire ship to reach 75k+ DPS.
Builds will require some thought, some effort..........
- 1 energy console (potentially 2 if you go the energy type + beam/cannon type)
- 1 torpedo console
- 1 Locator
- 1 Exploiter
- 1 Reputation tac console (depending on available space)
My God maybe even using mines would be feasible.
You can do that now without altering what other people do.
You don't have to 'be competitive' because unless you're playing PVP you're not competing with anyone. If you replace 2 of your locators with a +Beam and CC Energy Relay, no one helping you fight the Crystaline Entity will ever know the difference.
Any of you claiming you want a nerf under the illusion of creating parity have things very wrong. Never at any point has Parity been created by nerfing things. Parity is created by giving alternate options. If Cryptic wants people to stop stacking Locators/Exploiters then simply make other Tactical Only consoles that are worth using and make people choose which ones work best for what they're doing. You create variety by creating other options, not by reducing the effectiveness of the options already present.
Nerfs never cause parity, it just causes everyone to jump on the 'next big thing.'
Best post on topic in my opinion.
I think cryptic is doing it. You know not all over night but slowly. I think they have just a hard time to look first what to bring into the game and what not to.
For science the new research lab consoles are surely worth a look and a nice start here. I also kinda like the sci console from butterfly. Its quiet decent and feels on par even with 200 lobi consoles.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
yes, i agree. no need to change the current system. it is more interesting to add new stuff. at least, nobody will be fu.... up
2. The game is to focused on blowing things up as quickly as possible. If season 11 had few combat missions and more diplomatic/ story telling missions, the game would return to it's Star Trek core. But then that would anger the DPS obsessed players that have gotten accustomed to blowing things up quickly. They will demand another overpowered ship, like a T6 Scimitar, or single Tactical consoles that give a greater boost in damage. Instead of Stacking 3 consoles that boost Antiproton damage 30% each, they will demand one console that boosts antiproton damage 50%.
3. I've noticed that the hull of some NPC ships is 120,000 in the Delta quadrant. In a way, increasing the hull is a cheap way of making the game more difficult, but it still doesn't change the dynamic of the game. The DPS'ers will start to complain that it's not fair that an NPC has 3x times the hull that they have, or that it takes them 5 minutes to take down one NPC. Thus, they will demand some other change in the game to compensate for their inablility to stack multiple consoles.
I'm not making DPS'ers out to be the bad guy, but most of the whales in this game are DPS'ers. They know they hold the money, and they know they have influence in the direction of this game, that is why Cryptic continuously caters to their requests at the expense of others. My point is, whatever cryptic decides to do, the DPS'ers will always bring up the nerfing of their precious builds as an excuse to be compensated. Cryptic has created this monster, now they must slay it somehow.
It's funny you mentioned this. DPS is an illusion. It's an arbitrary number assigned by Cryptic. It doesn't matter what that number is because Cryptic will always balance it out so that you complete a mission in X amount of time. So if now you have 100k DPS to go against a 1M HP NPC, and if somehow Cryptic scaled everything down, and that number was whittled down to 10k DPS, they will give you a 100k HP NPC to kill to balance out the time. And newsflash, only a small number of the player base will hit that magic new max number. Repeat cycle.
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I would like to see the whole sacking thing be reduced to no more than 2 consoles. the dual purpose consoles like embassy consoles need to go away. utilizing SETS to boost damage is far more interesting. imagine a Phantom escort where only 2 phaser consoles will boost your phaser beams. what do you do with the other three slots? the heavy phaser lance is a no prainer.. do you go to a hybrid design and try a rainbow warrior? add two photon consoles and throw the gravimetric on?
I'll tell you what would happen with that Phantom. Everyone would find the next best alternatives and that would be the new Meta. Then everyone would run that exact configuration because that would be the obvious 'best.'
Now, on the other side, what if they instead offered other consoles that were as good as those Locators but gave different bonuses which encouraged other types of builds. Maybe instead of boosting Crit, there were consoles that synergized with the damage mod, or ones that gave you bonuses based on accuracy.. a mod that's currently worthless? That is how you encourage other types of builds, nerfing the 'best option' only causes the masses to move to the next best thing.
Once again I say it.. nerfing items does not create parity. It never has and it never will.
Not completely true. Krenim lab consoles are great for science officers trying to buff their sci skills. And can prove as or more beneficial.
On another note:
One of the things to take into account, is many use the embassy consoles for their Threat tanks. Make them unique and you kill more than just DPS builds.
Did you want to stack Fleet mine consoles? Guess what if you take way the tac and science consoles, take that away as well.
You could make a pure universal console ship setup but you wouldn't have nearly the buffing to things to make any of it usable.
Top DPS 102k
There are more than two choices. Whether you're running beams or cannons, there are beam bonus consoles and cannon bonus consoles as well as consoles for a specific energy type. All of these come in the crit chance and crit damage flavor. By forcing the use of different kinds, you would effectively be reducing the percentage bonus overall to some degree. It would still be pretty darn good, just not quite as high as stacking all anti-proton crit chance consoles. The beam and cannon consoles at Epic I believe go to 32% while the energy weapon type at Epic go to 37% . So, looking at that, you would be dropping some damage if you were forced to use both along with a mix of crit chance consoles and crit damage consoles.