Here's another question:
Why in the seven shades of billabong did the Krenim timeship need to go to Earth to open the portal?
Probably for the same reason the Borg did that in First Contact.
But the Borg travelled to Earth so they could travel back in time to Earth's Past. But with the Krenim ship, they went to Earth to.....travel into Iconia's past?
Regarding the transwarp gate...I have a pet theory about that. I can't prove it, and if true it should have been explained in the episode, but my personal theory is that the Borg actually didn't build that first transwarp gate over Romulus: Hakeev, in his incredible arrogance, did. And in this timeline where his attention was not divided by also having Iconian technology to mess with and not just Borg, his experiments on Borg tech went way further than they did in the prime timeline. In my theory, he is the one who drew the Borg to Romulus when his big transwarp experiment failed and the Borg came to claim the gate he'd oh so nicely built for them. Under this theory, erasing the gate means erasing all conditions leading to Hakeev doing that particular stupid experiment. Which meant restoring the discovery of Iconia to distract him from ever doing that.
Convoluted? Yes. Not properly explained by the episode even if true? Yes. But that is my personal theory.
I lean towards this but my other theory is that Sela was the x-factor (possibly along with Spock and Nero) and that the thing Krenim tech doesn't properly account for is interaction between timelines/universes, which tends to define the currents of time like rocks in a stream.
Because of this, removing an object has consequences that can't be adequately predicted and history has a shape that it will try to snap back into in order to preserve cross-universe interactions.
My other pet theory is that due to some kind of multiversal conservation principle, nothing is ever actually deleted by the Krenim ship, they don't really understand their own device, and that it's shuffling things between timelines. So we think we delete the asteroid but we just shuffled it somewhere else and it "wants" to come back.
One fantasy element of Trek that seems consistent is that time is a sentient or at least sapient force. Destiny exists. Time has a consciousness. You see hints of that particularly in City on the Edge of Forever and in Year of Hell. Time has wants and has a script it's trying to force people inside it to follow. You can rationalize that ultimately as the books have by imagining very elaborate Temporal Cold War and Temporal Integrity Commission tinkering behind the scenes and I think there is some of that but I think you're really stuck with the idea that time is at the very least "like a river" and may be a sapient deity-like force in Star Trek.
Beyond that, the Krenim ship in game doesn't necessarily work like Annorax's (in fact, we know it doesn't) and Cryptic's approach (which is inspired by Year of Hell if differing in some specifics) is that the ship works like a monkey's paw and that the changes in time are basically more like wishes granted by a crooked genie than proper cause and effect.
But there is an anthropic principle to be considered with historical revision. When we alter history, we create new time travelers who alter it further. And Sela is an example of this in some ways. She doesn't exist logically from the flow of our timeline but from a deleted offshoot. Now, if we alter history further, we might end up with a new timeline which has its own deleted offshoots. Or saving Romulus might result in a Romulan being born in the 27th century who wipes out Vulcan in the 1st century.
Basically, it's not that successful time travel can't happen but we're simply at a point in STO where we're only calculating cause and effect and not taking into account the deleted timeline remnants, interaction between universes, and new retroactive actions of time travelers that result from our changes.
I think at some point, Cryptic should absolutely outline what destroying the gateway did because we're all so fixated on it. And I think they ought to do it in game, not a blog or anything. But I think there's a good chance that in doing so, it will mean showing us that time has certain fantasy properties and that our understanding of cause and effect in a real world sense has issues.
Also, I think it would be really cool if the explanation involves following up on the second T'Nae, which I gather Gecko really wants to do and which I support him fully on.
I will outline something that occurred to me about Butterfly:
We deleted the asteroid.
The Iconians were never found.
Because they were never found, Sela never brought the Dominion in and we would have died fighting the Iconians before we could go back. And because we could never go back, we could never save them.
So IF the Iconians were never found then the Iconians all died on Iconia because The Other never saved them.
This has a host of other consequences. No Bluegill.
So while an alternate universe can play out any which way, our timeline somehow is locked into supporting the predestination paradoxes already in place and the Borg assimilating Romulus was necessary as an intermediary step to force us to go back and save the Iconians in the first place.
- Will the random thing that the Borg found in the alternate timeline that made them so much stronger ever be explained?
They still found it in this timeline - it's tied to Noye's wife's race. Her race fought off the Borg with it in the original timeline but in this timeline they assimilated her race and acquired whatever it was.
In this timeline we just removed a Transwarp conduit that prevented them from reaching our part of the galaxy so easy. They are still super-powerful in this timeline.
Actually, it's more confusing than that.
Noye says "20 years ago, your people tried to replicate the Solanae's sphere technology to protect themselves from the Borg. In this timeline, they failed".
However, it doesn't necessarily means they were all assimilated, just that they failed to replicate an already disastrous technology and that they're gone.
It's especially possible if the hypothesis that the Tuterians are actually the Sphere Builders, who can only live in a realm that transcends space and time, is real.
It could be yet another predestination paradox, except due to how the Sphere Builders work, it happens in the future, instead of the past as usual.
Also, when the timeship removes an object/civilization/planet/etc... it doesn't just delete it, it also removes/alters the reason it was here as well as many other variables related to it, which is also why Annorax kept failing in his attempts, despite many calculations.
For example, someone uses the timeship to erase someone's burger as a prank. At the very best, the person has a different day and it's just one burger that wasn't made at the fast-food. But among the worse scenarios, it also causes the burger recipe itself to have never existed, or the whole fast-food, or heck even the whole company to have never existed, which caused significant changes all over the world, which may include the Nostalgia Critic never having existed, Michael Bay making successful, deep dramas and Gabe Newell having an afro and having released Half Life 4 on the Nintendo Playstation X.
The whole episode is a nightmare to follow, anyway. The best way to know what really happened would be to have the writers explain how the whole thing works, but even then, in insight, they may think it doesn't make sense or they forgot something.
Instead of the whole Iconian council, now we just have ax-crazy T'Ket as our opponent, but......... how many Heralds has she got left? Near the beginning the devs said there could be BILLIONS of Heralds, and even with most of them out of the equation, she could have enough to pose a SERIOUS problem, maybe to continue the war in full, ESPECIALLY if M'Tara's former Heralds join her. Kind of important to the state of the Alpha and Beta Quadrants...
Here's another question:
Why in the seven shades of billabong did the Krenim timeship need to go to Earth to open the portal?
Isn't that the worst plan ever? Why not just stay nice and safe at Kyana where the Iconians can't go and open it there?
Because pretty much the entire Alliance fleet, especially the ones who knew about the plan and what to do in the past, were at Earth attempting to defend it from the Iconians.
Here's another question:
Why in the seven shades of billabong did the Krenim timeship need to go to Earth to open the portal?
Isn't that the worst plan ever? Why not just stay nice and safe at Kyana where the Iconians can't go and open it there?
Because the plot of Midnight is heavily inspired by the Battle of the Line in Babylon 5 : On the verge of collapse, fighting an unstoppable enemy, Earth avoids conquest (or worse) when the enemy finds out that one particular earthling is the ancient savior of his civilization, a member of the Grey Council (sorry, the Whole) that was not born from one of them. So the final space battle HAD to be fought in Earth's orbit.
Here's another question:
Why in the seven shades of billabong did the Krenim timeship need to go to Earth to open the portal?
Isn't that the worst plan ever? Why not just stay nice and safe at Kyana where the Iconians can't go and open it there?
Because the plot of Midnight is heavily inspired by the Battle of the Line in Babylon 5 : On the verge of collapse, fighting an unstoppable enemy, Earth avoids conquest (or worse) when the enemy finds out that one particular earthling is the ancient savior of his civilization, a member of the Grey Council (sorry, the Whole) that was not born from one of them. So the final space battle HAD to be fought in Earth's orbit.
Yes, it is *heavily* derivative of the battle of the line, with the player standing in for Sinclair. Glad I wasn't the only one who noticed the similarities. Except the plotline was much better executed in Babylon 5 because Straczynski actually planned the plotline out seasons in advance, whereas Cryptic doesn't seem capable of planning more than two episodes in advance (being generous).
Here's another question:
Why in the seven shades of billabong did the Krenim timeship need to go to Earth to open the portal?
Isn't that the worst plan ever? Why not just stay nice and safe at Kyana where the Iconians can't go and open it there?
Because the plot of Midnight is heavily inspired by the Battle of the Line in Babylon 5 : On the verge of collapse, fighting an unstoppable enemy, Earth avoids conquest (or worse) when the enemy finds out that one particular earthling is the ancient savior of his civilization, a member of the Grey Council (sorry, the Whole) that was not born from one of them. So the final space battle HAD to be fought in Earth's orbit.
Except the Iconians are a hell of a lot nicer than the Mimbari.
Everybody who keeps claiming that Contagion still happened even after Butterfly negated the event needs to explain how deleting the Borg transwarp hub restored that event, using lore and evidence presented in-game and not conjecture.
I'm waiting..
In the initial incursion - Nog took out the asteroid; leading to the Borg assimilation of Romulus, etc. and CHANGING much of the Prime Universe's history.
^^^
To fix this Nog did another 'fast and loose' (IE no long simulations to predict the outcome, more just a hope) incursion and erased a Transwarp Hub.
^^^
This 'reset' the Prime Universe timeline to the point where the one race was wiped out (well actually I believe assimilated by the Borg; because they failed to develop a defense technology they had in the original unaltered timeline); and also reset the timeline to the point Nog's first incursion (removing the Asteroid) - NEVER HAPPENED. That's why in 'Butterfly' you're suddenly just back at the Krenim Research Lab - and Nog's telling you how he was on the ship's Bridge, noticed a power drain, etc. - and then talks about what they found in the protected computer core showing they attempted two incursions, the second to reverse unexpected changes from the first.
Thus, again (per the episode) the ONLY previous thing not fully restored was the one race's attempt to develop a defense against the Borg (which they were successful at in the original unaltered timeline; but failed in the timeline created when Nog eliminated the Transwarp Hub.)
Thus the events of 'Contagion' et al did all still happen after Nog's reversal of his first incursion, by his elimination of that Borg Transwarp Hub.
The events in the episode 'Butterfly' (in the Prime Universe) ultimately became (after Nog's second incursion):
- You show up to assist in testing alternate timeline scenarios in preparation for a use of the weapon.
- Nog tells you that something happened and it appears the weapon was used twice; and they're looking into what the info in the protected core tells them about said uses of the weapon.
- You leave.
(Your character doesn't even realize that the race that was assimilated/destroyed ever existed. But all previous events depicted in the TV series TOS, TAS, TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT still happened )
Sorry, that is not only full of conjecture, it's also completely impossible in the canon.
As I've said, the only way to erase a Krenim timeship incursion is to erase the timeship, and if somehow this rule could be violated (it bloody can't), then nothing would've changed, including Noye's wife.
You can't have it both ways.
Not quite true, the original timeship had temporal phase shielding, meaning that it existed outside of time and space and as such, the only way to reverse the effects it had was through turning it's weapon on itself, this also had the added bonus of rendering the timeship undetectable by ships in normal space, at least until Harry and Tom disabled the shielding.
A distinction Butterfly doesn't make, thus the way the temporal shields operate in it are a plot hole.
The one we use only has Temporal shields, preventing our integration into the new timeline but it still existed in normal spacetime, hence why it was vunerable to Borg attack, it and it's effects on the timeline can be affected by another shot from the weapon regardless of the target.
Wrong. Because of the simple fact that it still exists. The only way to remove an incursion is to make it so that the timeship never existed.
That is the ultimate irony of the weapon; it's a time machine that is incapable of undoing it's own mistakes.
Wrong. Because of the simple fact that it still exists. The only way to remove an incursion is to make it so that the timeship never existed.
Are you sure? Didn't Annorex himself state that he removed things from existence and brought it back by other changes?
The problem is more you can't control it all that well...
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Everybody who keeps claiming that Contagion still happened even after Butterfly negated the event needs to explain how deleting the Borg transwarp hub restored that event, using lore and evidence presented in-game and not conjecture.
I'm waiting..
In the initial incursion - Nog took out the asteroid; leading to the Borg assimilation of Romulus, etc. and CHANGING much of the Prime Universe's history.
^^^
To fix this Nog did another 'fast and loose' (IE no long simulations to predict the outcome, more just a hope) incursion and erased a Transwarp Hub.
^^^
This 'reset' the Prime Universe timeline to the point where the one race was wiped out (well actually I believe assimilated by the Borg; because they failed to develop a defense technology they had in the original unaltered timeline); and also reset the timeline to the point Nog's first incursion (removing the Asteroid) - NEVER HAPPENED. That's why in 'Butterfly' you're suddenly just back at the Krenim Research Lab - and Nog's telling you how he was on the ship's Bridge, noticed a power drain, etc. - and then talks about what they found in the protected computer core showing they attempted two incursions, the second to reverse unexpected changes from the first.
Thus, again (per the episode) the ONLY previous thing not fully restored was the one race's attempt to develop a defense against the Borg (which they were successful at in the original unaltered timeline; but failed in the timeline created when Nog eliminated the Transwarp Hub.)
Thus the events of 'Contagion' et al did all still happen after Nog's reversal of his first incursion, by his elimination of that Borg Transwarp Hub.
The events in the episode 'Butterfly' (in the Prime Universe) ultimately became (after Nog's second incursion):
- You show up to assist in testing alternate timeline scenarios in preparation for a use of the weapon.
- Nog tells you that something happened and it appears the weapon was used twice; and they're looking into what the info in the protected core tells them about said uses of the weapon.
- You leave.
(Your character doesn't even realize that the race that was assimilated/destroyed ever existed. But all previous events depicted in the TV series TOS, TAS, TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT still happened )
Sorry, that is not only full of conjecture, it's also completely impossible in the canon.
As I've said, the only way to erase a Krenim timeship incursion is to erase the timeship, and if somehow this rule could be violated (it bloody can't), then nothing would've changed, including Noye's wife.
You can't have it both ways.
Not quite true, the original timeship had temporal phase shielding, meaning that it existed outside of time and space and as such, the only way to reverse the effects it had was through turning it's weapon on itself, this also had the added bonus of rendering the timeship undetectable by ships in normal space, at least until Harry and Tom disabled the shielding.
A distinction Butterfly doesn't make, thus the way the temporal shields operate in it are a plot hole.
How can they make that distinction in Butterfly? As far as the characters are concerned the original timeship never got beyond the concept stage. Also you can tell that it doesn't have the same Temporal Phase Shielding as the original by one simple fact, THAT THE BORG WERE SHOOTING AT IT! There is no plot hole.
The one we use only has Temporal shields, preventing our integration into the new timeline but it still existed in normal spacetime, hence why it was vunerable to Borg attack, it and it's effects on the timeline can be affected by another shot from the weapon regardless of the target.
Wrong. Because of the simple fact that it still exists. The only way to remove an incursion is to make it so that the timeship never existed.
That is the ultimate irony of the weapon; it's a time machine that is incapable of undoing it's own mistakes.
And your definitive proof of this beyond a version of the ship that existed beyond time and space is?
Wrong. Because of the simple fact that it still exists. The only way to remove an incursion is to make it so that the timeship never existed.
Are you sure? Didn't Annorex himself state that he removed things from existence and brought it back by other changes?
The problem is more you can't control it all that well...
Yes, but the original incursions are never undone. That's why Annorax could never bring back Kyana.
Everybody who keeps claiming that Contagion still happened even after Butterfly negated the event needs to explain how deleting the Borg transwarp hub restored that event, using lore and evidence presented in-game and not conjecture.
I'm waiting..
In the initial incursion - Nog took out the asteroid; leading to the Borg assimilation of Romulus, etc. and CHANGING much of the Prime Universe's history.
^^^
To fix this Nog did another 'fast and loose' (IE no long simulations to predict the outcome, more just a hope) incursion and erased a Transwarp Hub.
^^^
This 'reset' the Prime Universe timeline to the point where the one race was wiped out (well actually I believe assimilated by the Borg; because they failed to develop a defense technology they had in the original unaltered timeline); and also reset the timeline to the point Nog's first incursion (removing the Asteroid) - NEVER HAPPENED. That's why in 'Butterfly' you're suddenly just back at the Krenim Research Lab - and Nog's telling you how he was on the ship's Bridge, noticed a power drain, etc. - and then talks about what they found in the protected computer core showing they attempted two incursions, the second to reverse unexpected changes from the first.
Thus, again (per the episode) the ONLY previous thing not fully restored was the one race's attempt to develop a defense against the Borg (which they were successful at in the original unaltered timeline; but failed in the timeline created when Nog eliminated the Transwarp Hub.)
Thus the events of 'Contagion' et al did all still happen after Nog's reversal of his first incursion, by his elimination of that Borg Transwarp Hub.
The events in the episode 'Butterfly' (in the Prime Universe) ultimately became (after Nog's second incursion):
- You show up to assist in testing alternate timeline scenarios in preparation for a use of the weapon.
- Nog tells you that something happened and it appears the weapon was used twice; and they're looking into what the info in the protected core tells them about said uses of the weapon.
- You leave.
(Your character doesn't even realize that the race that was assimilated/destroyed ever existed. But all previous events depicted in the TV series TOS, TAS, TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT still happened )
Sorry, that is not only full of conjecture, it's also completely impossible in the canon.
As I've said, the only way to erase a Krenim timeship incursion is to erase the timeship, and if somehow this rule could be violated (it bloody can't), then nothing would've changed, including Noye's wife.
You can't have it both ways.
Not quite true, the original timeship had temporal phase shielding, meaning that it existed outside of time and space and as such, the only way to reverse the effects it had was through turning it's weapon on itself, this also had the added bonus of rendering the timeship undetectable by ships in normal space, at least until Harry and Tom disabled the shielding.
A distinction Butterfly doesn't make, thus the way the temporal shields operate in it are a plot hole.
How can they make that distinction in Butterfly? As far as the characters are concerned the original timeship never got beyond the concept stage. Also you can tell that it doesn't have the same Temporal Phase Shielding as the original by one simple fact, THAT THE BORG WERE SHOOTING AT IT! There is no plot hole.
You are forgetting that the Krenim have a full record of Annorax's alternate timeline antics and readily speak of those events in Time in a Bottle.
The Borg shooting it *is* the plot hole. That simply shouldn't happen. It's the same temporal shielding based on the same designs of the same ship by the same man *and* they have the aforementioned record of the alternate timeline.
That the temporal shielding effect isn't permanent is ANOTHER plot hole, because even the jury rigged, primitive temporal shielding that the Voyager developed in Year of Hell had the exact same effect of preventing what it protects from being affected even after being turned off.
The one we use only has Temporal shields, preventing our integration into the new timeline but it still existed in normal spacetime, hence why it was vunerable to Borg attack, it and it's effects on the timeline can be affected by another shot from the weapon regardless of the target.
Wrong. Because of the simple fact that it still exists. The only way to remove an incursion is to make it so that the timeship never existed.
That is the ultimate irony of the weapon; it's a time machine that is incapable of undoing it's own mistakes.
And your definitive proof of this beyond a version of the ship that existed beyond time and space is?[/quote]
The fundamental rules of how temporal incursions work with the exact same technology and the exact same expertise that developed both ships.
Everybody who keeps claiming that Contagion still happened even after Butterfly negated the event needs to explain how deleting the Borg transwarp hub restored that event, using lore and evidence presented in-game and not conjecture.
I'm waiting..
In the initial incursion - Nog took out the asteroid; leading to the Borg assimilation of Romulus, etc. and CHANGING much of the Prime Universe's history.
^^^
To fix this Nog did another 'fast and loose' (IE no long simulations to predict the outcome, more just a hope) incursion and erased a Transwarp Hub.
^^^
This 'reset' the Prime Universe timeline to the point where the one race was wiped out (well actually I believe assimilated by the Borg; because they failed to develop a defense technology they had in the original unaltered timeline); and also reset the timeline to the point Nog's first incursion (removing the Asteroid) - NEVER HAPPENED. That's why in 'Butterfly' you're suddenly just back at the Krenim Research Lab - and Nog's telling you how he was on the ship's Bridge, noticed a power drain, etc. - and then talks about what they found in the protected computer core showing they attempted two incursions, the second to reverse unexpected changes from the first.
Thus, again (per the episode) the ONLY previous thing not fully restored was the one race's attempt to develop a defense against the Borg (which they were successful at in the original unaltered timeline; but failed in the timeline created when Nog eliminated the Transwarp Hub.)
Thus the events of 'Contagion' et al did all still happen after Nog's reversal of his first incursion, by his elimination of that Borg Transwarp Hub.
The events in the episode 'Butterfly' (in the Prime Universe) ultimately became (after Nog's second incursion):
- You show up to assist in testing alternate timeline scenarios in preparation for a use of the weapon.
- Nog tells you that something happened and it appears the weapon was used twice; and they're looking into what the info in the protected core tells them about said uses of the weapon.
- You leave.
(Your character doesn't even realize that the race that was assimilated/destroyed ever existed. But all previous events depicted in the TV series TOS, TAS, TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT still happened )
Sorry, that is not only full of conjecture, it's also completely impossible in the canon.
As I've said, the only way to erase a Krenim timeship incursion is to erase the timeship, and if somehow this rule could be violated (it bloody can't), then nothing would've changed, including Noye's wife.
You can't have it both ways.
Not quite true, the original timeship had temporal phase shielding, meaning that it existed outside of time and space and as such, the only way to reverse the effects it had was through turning it's weapon on itself, this also had the added bonus of rendering the timeship undetectable by ships in normal space, at least until Harry and Tom disabled the shielding.
A distinction Butterfly doesn't make, thus the way the temporal shields operate in it are a plot hole.
The one we use only has Temporal shields, preventing our integration into the new timeline but it still existed in normal spacetime, hence why it was vunerable to Borg attack, it and it's effects on the timeline can be affected by another shot from the weapon regardless of the target.
Wrong. Because of the simple fact that it still exists. The only way to remove an incursion is to make it so that the timeship never existed.
That is the ultimate irony of the weapon; it's a time machine that is incapable of undoing it's own mistakes.
Not entirely true.
In 'Year of Hell, Annorax achieved a 98% restoration of the Krenim Imperium. Whilst I won't argue that 98% is perfect, it was very close (quote from the episode " we have restored 849 worlds over 5,000 parsecs".).
Emphasis on the use of the word "restored" by both Annorax and Obrist.
Which is proof that the Krenim weapon can't undo it's own mistakes. It can only try to compensate for them.
The entire point of Annorax's arc is that his first incursion erased Kyana and his own wife, and he drove himself insane trying to get them back because nothing worked, for 2 centuries. Precisely because no matter what he did, he couldn't undo his initial incursion until the weapon itself was erased.
Well, whilst I doubt they will, it would be good if something was included in a FE or something that addresses what happens to the timeship. It's one heck of a dangerous weapon and can the Krenim be trusted to behave themselves with it?
It would be nice to see Annorax return and say "I'll be taking that..." and find out he's in charge of all the temporal services. After all I doubt anyone knows better about how dangerous temporal technology is then he does.
I'm hoping the first FE of the new episode is us scrapping the thing - maybe we're ready in the 29th century, but the Alliance is not yet ready for responsibly handling time travel.
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Well, whilst I doubt they will, it would be good if something was included in a FE or something that addresses what happens to the timeship. It's one heck of a dangerous weapon and can the Krenim be trusted to behave themselves with it?
It would be nice to see Annorax return and say "I'll be taking that..." and find out he's in charge of all the temporal services. After all I doubt anyone knows better about how dangerous temporal technology is then he does.
But the Borg travelled to Earth so they could travel back in time to Earth's Past. But with the Krenim ship, they went to Earth to.....travel into Iconia's past?
They can travel back in time anywhere, and still travel to Earth.
And why give up on that strategy because of one failure? Why didn't the borg make more attempts at going back in time?
But the Borg travelled to Earth so they could travel back in time to Earth's Past. But with the Krenim ship, they went to Earth to.....travel into Iconia's past?
No, here is what is stupid.
They had a Cube, Cube goes boom so it launches a Sphere that then travels to the past ... then when the Enterprise follows it and destroys it, they attempt to assimilate the Enterprise to contact with the Borg of that time.
It never said they travel to Earth so they could travel to the past, as far we can tell the Battle of Sector 001 was a Borg Cube attempting to assimilate Earth.
Plus IF they could contact the Borg to assimilate Earth WHY THE HELL THEY DIDNT TRAVEL TO THE PAST IN THEIR OWN STAR SYSTEM AND SPARE THEMSELVES A LOT OF PROBLEMS?
First Contact is really dumb and I guess its hailed as the better of the TNG movie because ... well, look at the competition, the only one that comes close is Insurrection with the other two being significant worst.
As much you want to complain, the Krenim ship could "technically" do that if it was a wormhole since its been established they can link not only two points in space but also two points in time.
I always inferred at the time that they had ships that were warp capable or timeship capable but not both. Spheres weren't necessarily warp capable there.
But the Borg travelled to Earth so they could travel back in time to Earth's Past. But with the Krenim ship, they went to Earth to.....travel into Iconia's past?
No, here is what is stupid.
They had a Cube, Cube goes boom so it launches a Sphere that then travels to the past ... then when the Enterprise follows it and destroys it, they attempt to assimilate the Enterprise to contact with the Borg of that time.
It never said they travel to Earth so they could travel to the past, as far we can tell the Battle of Sector 001 was a Borg Cube attempting to assimilate Earth.
Plus IF they could contact the Borg to assimilate Earth WHY THE HELL THEY DIDNT TRAVEL TO THE PAST IN THEIR OWN STAR SYSTEM AND SPARE THEMSELVES A LOT OF PROBLEMS?
First Contact is really dumb and I guess its hailed as the better of the TNG movie because ... well, look at the competition, the only one that comes close is Insurrection with the other two being significant worst.
As much you want to complain, the Krenim ship could "technically" do that if it was a wormhole since its been established they can link not only two points in space but also two points in time.
I always got the impression the Borg were intending to time travel from the very beginning. Because if they were intent on assimilating the Earth in the present, then why send just one cube?
But since we have no absolutes, we have to agree to disagree. Because it could be the function of that particular temporal device. Look at the other variations of time travel we seen in Star Trek? The Guardian of Forever, around the Sun, transporter accidents, point-to-point, time-and-space, and Q.
Guess this is why people hate Time Travel episodes so much.
Guess this is why people hate Time Travel episodes so much.
The rules of time travel in are always exactly what the writers want. (And sometimes even then they fail to be consistent.) And that means you can't make any meaningful estimates on what will happen, and you know it's all a plot device.
In the mythical, reimagined Star Trek I dream up where everythnig is perfect and better and consistent; I'd probably try to set up consistent rules. If not in general, then for the method chosen to time travel.
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The rules of time travel in are always exactly what the writers want. (And sometimes even then they fail to be consistent.) And that means you can't make any meaningful estimates on what will happen, and you know it's all a plot device.
In the mythical, reimagined Star Trek I dream up where everythnig is perfect and better and consistent; I'd probably try to set up consistent rules. If not in general, then for the method chosen to time travel.
A valid point.
Which now makes me apprehensive of Cryptic's continued focus on time traveling in the upcoming content due to it opening up more and more inconsistancies. Like the major paradox they never fixed with Night of the Comet. In all honesty, time travel in STO has become a crutch due to over dependance with resolving plots.
The rules of time travel in are always exactly what the writers want. (And sometimes even then they fail to be consistent.) And that means you can't make any meaningful estimates on what will happen, and you know it's all a plot device.
In the mythical, reimagined Star Trek I dream up where everythnig is perfect and better and consistent; I'd probably try to set up consistent rules. If not in general, then for the method chosen to time travel.
A valid point.
Which now makes me apprehensive of Cryptic's continued focus on time traveling in the upcoming content due to it opening up more and more inconsistancies. Like the major paradox they never fixed with Night of the Comet. In all honesty, time travel in STO has become a crutch due to over dependance with resolving plots.
The time travel shenengians in STO are no worse than in VOY, of course.
I neither like the Mirror Universe nor the Temporal Cold War, so I am not all that optimistic on the story of Star Trek Online for the future. (Also, Kestrel left. ). But I think the Star Trek Starship Bling will keep me along.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
To be fair nobody liked it, not even the ENT writers, so they got rid of it ASAP. The only good thing was the Enterprise fighting laser-wielding stukas. And it's because it was so ridiculous it was awesome.
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But the Borg travelled to Earth so they could travel back in time to Earth's Past. But with the Krenim ship, they went to Earth to.....travel into Iconia's past?
Very much true.
I lean towards this but my other theory is that Sela was the x-factor (possibly along with Spock and Nero) and that the thing Krenim tech doesn't properly account for is interaction between timelines/universes, which tends to define the currents of time like rocks in a stream.
Because of this, removing an object has consequences that can't be adequately predicted and history has a shape that it will try to snap back into in order to preserve cross-universe interactions.
My other pet theory is that due to some kind of multiversal conservation principle, nothing is ever actually deleted by the Krenim ship, they don't really understand their own device, and that it's shuffling things between timelines. So we think we delete the asteroid but we just shuffled it somewhere else and it "wants" to come back.
One fantasy element of Trek that seems consistent is that time is a sentient or at least sapient force. Destiny exists. Time has a consciousness. You see hints of that particularly in City on the Edge of Forever and in Year of Hell. Time has wants and has a script it's trying to force people inside it to follow. You can rationalize that ultimately as the books have by imagining very elaborate Temporal Cold War and Temporal Integrity Commission tinkering behind the scenes and I think there is some of that but I think you're really stuck with the idea that time is at the very least "like a river" and may be a sapient deity-like force in Star Trek.
Beyond that, the Krenim ship in game doesn't necessarily work like Annorax's (in fact, we know it doesn't) and Cryptic's approach (which is inspired by Year of Hell if differing in some specifics) is that the ship works like a monkey's paw and that the changes in time are basically more like wishes granted by a crooked genie than proper cause and effect.
But there is an anthropic principle to be considered with historical revision. When we alter history, we create new time travelers who alter it further. And Sela is an example of this in some ways. She doesn't exist logically from the flow of our timeline but from a deleted offshoot. Now, if we alter history further, we might end up with a new timeline which has its own deleted offshoots. Or saving Romulus might result in a Romulan being born in the 27th century who wipes out Vulcan in the 1st century.
Basically, it's not that successful time travel can't happen but we're simply at a point in STO where we're only calculating cause and effect and not taking into account the deleted timeline remnants, interaction between universes, and new retroactive actions of time travelers that result from our changes.
I think at some point, Cryptic should absolutely outline what destroying the gateway did because we're all so fixated on it. And I think they ought to do it in game, not a blog or anything. But I think there's a good chance that in doing so, it will mean showing us that time has certain fantasy properties and that our understanding of cause and effect in a real world sense has issues.
Also, I think it would be really cool if the explanation involves following up on the second T'Nae, which I gather Gecko really wants to do and which I support him fully on.
His name is Fluffy! You should know... you created him!!!
We deleted the asteroid.
The Iconians were never found.
Because they were never found, Sela never brought the Dominion in and we would have died fighting the Iconians before we could go back. And because we could never go back, we could never save them.
So IF the Iconians were never found then the Iconians all died on Iconia because The Other never saved them.
This has a host of other consequences. No Bluegill.
So while an alternate universe can play out any which way, our timeline somehow is locked into supporting the predestination paradoxes already in place and the Borg assimilating Romulus was necessary as an intermediary step to force us to go back and save the Iconians in the first place.
Noye says "20 years ago, your people tried to replicate the Solanae's sphere technology to protect themselves from the Borg. In this timeline, they failed".
However, it doesn't necessarily means they were all assimilated, just that they failed to replicate an already disastrous technology and that they're gone.
It's especially possible if the hypothesis that the Tuterians are actually the Sphere Builders, who can only live in a realm that transcends space and time, is real.
It could be yet another predestination paradox, except due to how the Sphere Builders work, it happens in the future, instead of the past as usual.
Also, when the timeship removes an object/civilization/planet/etc... it doesn't just delete it, it also removes/alters the reason it was here as well as many other variables related to it, which is also why Annorax kept failing in his attempts, despite many calculations.
For example, someone uses the timeship to erase someone's burger as a prank. At the very best, the person has a different day and it's just one burger that wasn't made at the fast-food. But among the worse scenarios, it also causes the burger recipe itself to have never existed, or the whole fast-food, or heck even the whole company to have never existed, which caused significant changes all over the world, which may include the Nostalgia Critic never having existed, Michael Bay making successful, deep dramas and Gabe Newell having an afro and having released Half Life 4 on the Nintendo Playstation X.
The whole episode is a nightmare to follow, anyway. The best way to know what really happened would be to have the writers explain how the whole thing works, but even then, in insight, they may think it doesn't make sense or they forgot something.
Instead of the whole Iconian council, now we just have ax-crazy T'Ket as our opponent, but......... how many Heralds has she got left? Near the beginning the devs said there could be BILLIONS of Heralds, and even with most of them out of the equation, she could have enough to pose a SERIOUS problem, maybe to continue the war in full, ESPECIALLY if M'Tara's former Heralds join her. Kind of important to the state of the Alpha and Beta Quadrants...
Because pretty much the entire Alliance fleet, especially the ones who knew about the plan and what to do in the past, were at Earth attempting to defend it from the Iconians.
Because the plot of Midnight is heavily inspired by the Battle of the Line in Babylon 5 : On the verge of collapse, fighting an unstoppable enemy, Earth avoids conquest (or worse) when the enemy finds out that one particular earthling is the ancient savior of his civilization, a member of the Grey Council (sorry, the Whole) that was not born from one of them. So the final space battle HAD to be fought in Earth's orbit.
Yes, it is *heavily* derivative of the battle of the line, with the player standing in for Sinclair. Glad I wasn't the only one who noticed the similarities. Except the plotline was much better executed in Babylon 5 because Straczynski actually planned the plotline out seasons in advance, whereas Cryptic doesn't seem capable of planning more than two episodes in advance (being generous).
Except the Iconians are a hell of a lot nicer than the Mimbari.
A distinction Butterfly doesn't make, thus the way the temporal shields operate in it are a plot hole.
Wrong. Because of the simple fact that it still exists. The only way to remove an incursion is to make it so that the timeship never existed.
That is the ultimate irony of the weapon; it's a time machine that is incapable of undoing it's own mistakes.
The problem is more you can't control it all that well...
How can they make that distinction in Butterfly? As far as the characters are concerned the original timeship never got beyond the concept stage. Also you can tell that it doesn't have the same Temporal Phase Shielding as the original by one simple fact, THAT THE BORG WERE SHOOTING AT IT! There is no plot hole.
And your definitive proof of this beyond a version of the ship that existed beyond time and space is?
Yes, but the original incursions are never undone. That's why Annorax could never bring back Kyana.
You are forgetting that the Krenim have a full record of Annorax's alternate timeline antics and readily speak of those events in Time in a Bottle.
The Borg shooting it *is* the plot hole. That simply shouldn't happen. It's the same temporal shielding based on the same designs of the same ship by the same man *and* they have the aforementioned record of the alternate timeline.
That the temporal shielding effect isn't permanent is ANOTHER plot hole, because even the jury rigged, primitive temporal shielding that the Voyager developed in Year of Hell had the exact same effect of preventing what it protects from being affected even after being turned off.
And your definitive proof of this beyond a version of the ship that existed beyond time and space is?[/quote]
The fundamental rules of how temporal incursions work with the exact same technology and the exact same expertise that developed both ships.
Which is proof that the Krenim weapon can't undo it's own mistakes. It can only try to compensate for them.
The entire point of Annorax's arc is that his first incursion erased Kyana and his own wife, and he drove himself insane trying to get them back because nothing worked, for 2 centuries. Precisely because no matter what he did, he couldn't undo his initial incursion until the weapon itself was erased.
It would be nice to see Annorax return and say "I'll be taking that..." and find out he's in charge of all the temporal services. After all I doubt anyone knows better about how dangerous temporal technology is then he does.
Annorax, Temporal Police Chief.
Member Access Denied Armada!
My forum single-issue of rage: Make the Proton Experimental Weapon go for subsystem targetting!
Bonus points if he calls Noye a dumbass.
They can travel back in time anywhere, and still travel to Earth.
And why give up on that strategy because of one failure? Why didn't the borg make more attempts at going back in time?
I always inferred at the time that they had ships that were warp capable or timeship capable but not both. Spheres weren't necessarily warp capable there.
I always got the impression the Borg were intending to time travel from the very beginning. Because if they were intent on assimilating the Earth in the present, then why send just one cube?
But since we have no absolutes, we have to agree to disagree. Because it could be the function of that particular temporal device. Look at the other variations of time travel we seen in Star Trek? The Guardian of Forever, around the Sun, transporter accidents, point-to-point, time-and-space, and Q.
Guess this is why people hate Time Travel episodes so much.
The rules of time travel in are always exactly what the writers want. (And sometimes even then they fail to be consistent.) And that means you can't make any meaningful estimates on what will happen, and you know it's all a plot device.
In the mythical, reimagined Star Trek I dream up where everythnig is perfect and better and consistent; I'd probably try to set up consistent rules. If not in general, then for the method chosen to time travel.
A valid point.
Which now makes me apprehensive of Cryptic's continued focus on time traveling in the upcoming content due to it opening up more and more inconsistancies. Like the major paradox they never fixed with Night of the Comet. In all honesty, time travel in STO has become a crutch due to over dependance with resolving plots.
The time travel shenengians in STO are no worse than in VOY, of course.
I neither like the Mirror Universe nor the Temporal Cold War, so I am not all that optimistic on the story of Star Trek Online for the future. (Also, Kestrel left.
My character Tsin'xing