Wait, if the assimilation of the Tuterians gave the Borg advanced tech to reach Romulus and the altered incursion seemingly resulted in the extinction of the Tuterians because their adaptation of Solonae technology failed, that could have sent them into another dimension, and a hundred years later they try to return to their native galaxy. Could we have created the Sphere Builders?
I think that *before* Butterlfy the Tuterians were able to use the Solanae technology successfully and save themselves from borg.
The temporal incursion must have change this.
This time the Tuterians used the Solanae technology to save themselves but they were not totally successful. They avoided the borg but they trapped themselves in the trans-dimensional pocket.
This would delete the presence of Clauda from our timeline.
So, in practice, YES, we have created the "sphere Builders". Although some detail may be wrong (did they totally avoid the borg? did the borg assimilated some of the tuterians? did the borg got some temporal technology?) I really think we have just met the "sphere builders".
If we assume that the modifications in Butterfly were necessary and destined to happen, to ensure that the Sphere Builders are created and everything leading up to Butterfly happens as we know it in Star Trek history...
If the Borg did assimilate some Tuterians and their knowledge, I think it happened prior to the movie "First Contact". You know, where a Borg sphere actually travels back in time to prevent the first flight of the Phoenix? I guess that should give us a ~ timeframe on when the Tuterians failed and/or had to flee to this transdimensional realm... or had that same accident that happened to the Solanae, whatever.
Also I'm guessing Clauda didn't just vanish. She just took her appropriate place in this altered reality. Assimilated, killed at one point, or with her people as a Sphere Builder, trapped Elements know where. It was a rather detailed character model for just one show. I think we'll see more Tuterians in the future, if not Clauda herself.
Wow so many circles...
I could be wrong of course. ^^
Post edited by kelettes on
"Ad astra audacter eamus in alis fidelium."
-
"To boldly go to the stars on the wings of the faithful."
Being a race from deep in the Delta Quadrant they could have encountered the Borg at almost any time. The assumed extinction sending them to that other dimension hypothesis would have saved them from assimilation.
Their ties to the Krenim would explain how in the 26th century they had the ability to study timelines and the dimension jump, backfired explosion, whatever it could have been obviously changed their physiology to permanently adapt them to their new home and change their voices as well. Clauda did not have that echoey effect.
This "failed" mission could be one hell of a predestination paradox.
If you pay close attention, many of the races in the TV shows have populations lower then the human race does today, despite being far older, and having been traveling thought space far longer then we have.
According to the Star Trek Star charts, the entire population of Vulcan is like 4.9 billion, and the population of Qo'nos is only 3.8 billion.
There's tons of major species that could be easily wiped out, near instantly with Star Trek weapons.
Vulcan and Qo'nos are a single planet, there could be a lot of colonized worlds out there or even members of their race spending their entire lives onboard a starship/space station and therefore not being counted as living on their home planet.
Let's also remember these ARE older space fairing civilizations. Such societies would recognize having 12 billion people on a single planet is not sustainable. I wish we would figure that out at some point.
This reminds me of the one aspect of "The Vengeance factor" that struck me as really dumb.
The Gatherers, despite their flaws, had been building colonies in systems that were otherwise unclaimed. At the end of the episode they apparently abandoned those in favor of returning to their heavily populated homeworld.
Ending their semi-exile? sure, makes sense. Giving them a voting seat on the Acamarian ruling body? GREAT! Moving all their stuff back to the HW? WTF????
I've got a question regarding the omni-directional antichroniton infused tetryon beam array, is this technically classed as its own omni? does that mean we can slot this and the standard tetryon omni, like we can with the ancient and antiproton omnis?
Murphy's laws:
1- Murphy’s Law tells us that anything that can go wrong will go wrong.
2- And anything that does go wrong will get progressively worse.
3- And if you survive the first two laws it’s time to panic.
I've got a question regarding the omni-directional antichroniton infused tetryon beam array, is this technically classed as its own omni? does that mean we can slot this and the standard tetryon omni, like we can with the ancient and antiproton omnis?
I think Clauda is inspired in Agent Shelan from the ST:DTI novels. She is a Suliban DTI agent in the late 24th century and is also erased from time (by Enterprise's Future Guy) in a mission. I would like to see Daniels or Ducane (or at least a temporal ship) coming back in time to prevent the use of the Krenim weapon and then restoring everything to the state pre-Butterfly as in Storm Front
Replayed the episode and did not make any more sense on the second go through.
I believe we definitely saw the introduction and "origin" of the sphere builders. So what happened was they were in their other dimension hiding from the Borg when we did our incursion. The result led to their extinction, but perhaps those in hiding were not affected due to not being in our space time. Now they are stuck. Bummer. Our bad guys.
Regarding the time travel shenanigans, its bad.
First they said the plan was to alter the path of an asteroid so that it impacts Iconia. Well the timeship cannot do that, it can only remove things from the timeline. And that is what they did, it shows the weapon being fired on an asteroid resulting in its removal, which was not the goal. Oops. Assuming that asteroid never had any meaningful interactions, nothing should have changed.
As for Romulus being assimilated, I have no objections to that. Unforeseen results is what the butterfly effect is all about.
But targeting the transworp network? Rut-row, that raises some issues. They specifically said "target the transwarp network." I don't know if that took out the entire network or just that lone conduit, but either way is a problem.
1. If it was the entire network, god did they just throw a wench in the timeline. No need to go into details here.
2. If they only removed that single conduit, it should not have caused the removal of the Borg. That would have been placed after Romulus was assimilated. And it would not change whatever those mischievous Borg got their hands on in the Delta quadrant that gave them a boost. They would still be uber Borg.
3. The issue of Romulus being destroyed again afterwards has already been discussed at length.
The only way out of this is someone playing big brother Mr. Fix it who was behind the scenes countering what we did.
But then they did a poor job of that because they still allowed an entire civilization to perish.
Everyone involved in this mission sucks at their jobs lol.
I also did not like how Nog and grumpy Krenim quickly decided to fire at the conduit anyway. Isn't incursions something that should be carefully planned and calculated? And these morons just said, quick shoot something!!
Finally hopefully someone can clear up my confusion. What happened at the very end? All of our ships lost our temporal shielding. So we merged with that timeline. Why did Nog say he has no memory of making those logs? IF we merged with this "new" timeline, then we "merged" with ourselves from this timeline. Yet we have no memories of the mission, so perhaps it is more accurate to say we, as in the original us, ceased to exist? And I could not shake the feeling that it was as if this timeline version of us never went on the mission. It felt like we were about to and someone said "hey come see this, there be logs here!" Did anyone else get that impression? Contributing to this was that Mr. Grumpy did not seem affected in the least bit by the loss of his wife, because he never met her. Imagine his surprise when he reads the logs.
Yes in scenario gamma (the one about delaying tactics) they planned to alter the course of an asteroid to destroy an archaeological dig site on Denius III before the crew of the Yamato can begin its investigation and re-discover Iconia.
As for how they accomplished that by removing an asteroid:
Think of it like a game of pool. If you remove Ball A, it never collides with Ball B, allowing B to reach the hole in the corner (a planet in this case).
As for the second incursion:
I believe they targeted that transwarp gateway specifically. Erasing it also removed the decision that lead to its construction in the first place.
"That would have been placed after Romulus was assimilated."
Well the Borg sent a gateway to Vega before assimilating it. I don't think of those gateways as just parts of infrastructure. They also function as backdoors into enemy territory when starting an invasion.
About the snappy decision before the second incursion:
We weren't exactly in a position to crunch the numbers. The Borg were pushing us hard, and not long after the second incursion happens, our temporal shields fail.
Either we make that "leap of faith" based on half-baked calculations, or we let our temporal shields collapse and we reintegrate with a timeline that had an assimilated Romulus. It was either jump or it was game over anyway. During that reintegration, the crew of our ships would've taken their respective places in that altered history. Tiaru and the Lleiset would've probably ended up being assimilated for example. As for the Krenim ship: if the incursion didn't affect its construction in the Kyana system, the ship would've continued to exist, and the Borg would've gained access to Annorax's research.
In the very end:
I believe we are still ourselves and we didn't merge with an "original". It's just that our entire history was rewritten. When we used the second incursion to (sort of) correct the mistakes from the first one, it's as if we've never gone anywhere from Kyana, and our memories and logs from the incident (except for the shielded computer core) were erased too.
About Mr. Grumpy Krenim (Noye, btw ^^):
We've altered history, Clauda took her own place in this new reality, and probably never met Noye. How can he be upset about something that never happened? They have to examine the shielded core to piece together what has changed.
That core was meant to be a time capsule. I'm guessing it already contained a large database of historical data before the first incursion happened, and everything that transpired during the mission was recorded and backed up into that core as well.
Hope I cleared it up a bit
"Ad astra audacter eamus in alis fidelium."
-
"To boldly go to the stars on the wings of the faithful."
Ah No, because the Sphere builders can't survive in our world without the Expanse that's why it existed
Replay the mission again, its said in the new timeline that her race was "destroyed" trying to adapt Solanae tech to resist the Borg.
This is the same Solanae who built the dyson sphere, and who where forced to live in subspace because of an industrial accident in the sphere.
Claudia could exist in normal space because her race DIDN'T fail to adapt Solanae tech in the timeline we start off in. In the timeline we are in at the end of the mission, they are seemingly destroyed, aka trapped in their trans dimensional realm we see in Enterprise, because they had a similar accident as the Solanae did when they built the sphere.
Actually it is never said that they were destroyed. All that is said is that in this timeline they failed.
We still don't know what The One or The Other whatever it was called was yet. Something powerful enough to save the Iconians may be able to destroy them too.
Reading all the hints that the Dev gave with "Tales of War" (in particular the 9), considering what the prophets said about the Other ("The Other saved them. The Other will save them again") and also reading the various hints in the Iconians episodes I think that the Other is us (our character).
My hypothesis is that we are in a time loop. We will go back in time and save few Iconians (the same that we are fighting now).
I thought so at first too. But the fact that the Mirror universe will play a huge part in season 11 leads me to believe the Other is from the Mirror universe. Other Circle? Or Other Us?
Yes in scenario gamma (the one about delaying tactics) they planned to alter the course of an asteroid to destroy an archaeological dig site on Denius III before the crew of the Yamato can begin its investigation and re-discover Iconia.
As for how they accomplished that by removing an asteroid:
Think of it like a game of pool. If you remove Ball A, it never collides with Ball B, allowing B to reach the hole in the corner (a planet in this case).
As for the second incursion:
I believe they targeted that transwarp gateway specifically. Erasing it also removed the decision that lead to its construction in the first place.
"That would have been placed after Romulus was assimilated."
Well the Borg sent a gateway to Vega before assimilating it. I don't think of those gateways as just parts of infrastructure. They also function as backdoors into enemy territory when starting an invasion.
About the snappy decision before the second incursion:
We weren't exactly in a position to crunch the numbers. The Borg were pushing us hard, and not long after the second incursion happens, our temporal shields fail.
Either we make that "leap of faith" based on half-baked calculations, or we let our temporal shields collapse and we reintegrate with a timeline that had an assimilated Romulus. It was either jump or game over. During that reintegration, the crew of our ships would've taken their respective places in that altered history. Tiaru and the Lleiset would've probably ended up being assimilated for example. As for the Krenim ship: if the incursion didn't affect its construction in the Kyana system, the ship would've continued to exist, and the Borg would've gained access to Annorax's research.
In the very end:
I believe we are still ourselves and we didn't merge with an "original". It's just that our entire history was rewritten. When we used the second incursion to (sort of) correct the mistakes from the first one, it's as if we've never gone anywhere from Kyana, and our memories and logs from the incident (except for the shielded computer core) were erased too.
About Mr. Grumpy Krenim (Noye, btw ^^):
We've altered history, Clauda took her own place in this new reality, and probably never met Noye. How can he be upset about something that never happened? They have to examine the shielded core to piece together what has changed.
That core was meant to be a time capsule. I'm guessing it already contained a large database of historical data before the first incursion happened, and everything that transpired during the mission was recorded and backed up into that core as well.
Hope I cleared it up a bit
Ah yes, my mistake. I mixed up the scenarios a bit there. Thanks for the correction.
Your explanation works for that first incursion, and in game wise I accept it. However that should have been stated in game. I think the writers just screwed up. Still, it is an acceptable remedy.
For the second incursion, what you said is what I think as well, even if Nog (or grumpy Krenim) said otherwise. We are still left with uber Borg though. I disagree with the idea that removing it also removed the decision to assimilate in the first place. Unlike Vega this was the Romulan homeworld. The Borg will not just roll up a transwarp conduit outside Romulus. The more likely scenario is that the Borg overwhelmed the Romulans and gradually (relatively speaking) assimilated Romulan space. Your explanation is possible, but I think it is less likely. That aside, we are still left with glaring issues.
Snappy decision: Unacceptable. Even how you phrased it, this was an irresponsible act. Everyone knows to be careful when messing with timelines. A half baked incursion should be absolutely out of the question. From a Trek perspective, game over would be preferable. Don't want the Borg to have access to the time ship? Then "blow up the damn ship!" Does not make for a good game though, I'll concede that much.
Per your explanation, we are actually not ourselves. There is prime Captain Player, and now a second Captain player from an alternate timeline. Prime Captain no longer exists. You could not say we are still ourselves when one of us is not married in this timeline. That is a life changing event. Our experiences sculpt us. Any change in our history would change who we are. The extent is unknown, but there is a change.
A thought regarding the "Shielded" core came to mind. Its not really shielded is it. The shield would be designed to prevent the data from being altered by whatever timeline you are in. That is the point I believe. She uploaded her logs and research to the core to protect it in the event that she never existed in the other timeline. But the mere fact that these logs exist in the alternate Annorax proves that the core is not protected.
This is how I gave myself the headache lol. There were two time ships basically. The one from the prime universe/timeline, and the one from this new one. After the prime's temporal shields failed, it merged with the one from the altered timeline. In doing so it altered the core of that ship.
Now you say we did not "merge" but rather took our respective place in the timeline...but there is already a version of us in the timeline. So either one of our copies ceases to exist, or there is some kind of merging (our character and Nog did mention remembering certain parts of the mission -- Nog remembered looking at power levels for example).
This would suggest that the alternate Annorax had its core overidden by the prime Annorax. Hence, it is not a shielded core after all.
Actually we are ourselves, it was everything from the arrival in the Kyana System up to the final incursion that was the alternate timeline as the incursions alter the timeline retroactively everything that already happened in the entire of STO was a result of that incursion however our first arrival in the Kyana System was just a predestined pocket timeline existing for the sole purpose of making everything the way it already was.
We still don't know what The One or The Other whatever it was called was yet. Something powerful enough to save the Iconians may be able to destroy them too.
Reading all the hints that the Dev gave with "Tales of War" (in particular the 9), considering what the prophets said about the Other ("The Other saved them. The Other will save them again") and also reading the various hints in the Iconians episodes I think that the Other is us (our character).
My hypothesis is that we are in a time loop. We will go back in time and save few Iconians (the same that we are fighting now).
I thought so at first too. But the fact that the Mirror universe will play a huge part in season 11 leads me to believe the Other is from the Mirror universe. Other Circle? Or Other Us?
I'm wondering if the other could be future guy from Enterprise after all he caused a lot of time shenanigans in the temporal war so whose to say he isnt the other the iconions are working with
NO TO ARC
Vice Admiral Volmack ISS Thundermole
Brigadier General Jokag IKS Gorkan
Centurion Kares RRW Tomalak
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Anyone else notice that Noye's beard was different after the incursion? It went from a Goatee during the mission and ended up with full beard after we are back on the station.
Anyone else notice that Noye's beard was different after the incursion? It went from a Goatee during the mission and ended up with full beard after we are back on the station.
The logical fail in this mission is exactly why CBS needs to issue a blanket ban on time travel stories in Star Trek. And to everybody who voted for VOY in the poll: Thanks a TRIBBLE bunch.
We also know that they don't really considered the various "realities" as being separate, and given the Alliance's use of time travel/dimensional interference tech in the Iconian war, its likely this is being set up for another "Sphere Builders" scenario, where we do something in a future mission that messes with the Tholians and causes their aggression in the past.
The tholians are super reclusive, but it's actually possible to figure out why they suddenly started becoming aggressive just before the iconians showed up.
If you read all the path to 2409 lore (along with the expanded pieces that cryptic used to have on their website), there's no mention at all of any tholian activities.
We have to assume that the status quo at the end of the tv and movies held - during DS9 they had an ambassador aboard the station (who was an acquaintance who once did Sisko a favor), and at the beginning of Nemesis Tal'aura was meeting with a Tholian ambassador. A tholian diplomat was even present at the Antwerp Conference. So a state of mutual respect and diplomacy.
We know from the delta recruit event that the fed, rommie, and klingon plotlines started simultaneously.
So when is the first time that a player character encounters a tholian?
The early Romulan-arc mission "The Search for New Romulus". Where, in order to secure political standing, and establish the Romulan Republic's legitimacy, your captain is forced to choose an acceptable new homeworld as soon as possible. When Tau Dewa seems promising, your first officer Tovan Khev immediately is shocked when he finds Tholians got to the planet first, and a decision is made - even though we have only been on here for half an hour, the tholians cannot be allowed to possess 'our' planet.
Tracking the tholians to their dig site, and being warned against trespassing, the captain resolves to defeat the tholians entirely, and intentionally goes down into the pit to fight them. Easily killing the band of scientists, he then attacks the ships of the tholians who appeared to rescue them.
That's right. The entire war with the tholians is kicked off when your captain - unprovoked- attacks and murders several tholian archaeologists.
The way this plotline would end in a star trek episode is with the romulan captain valiantly sacrificing himself for the sake of his people, erasing himself from the timeline to prevent the war with the tholians. He would give the alpha quadrant a chance.
Anyone else notice that Noye's beard was different after the incursion? It went from a Goatee during the mission and ended up with full beard after we are back on the station.
He also has scars afterwards.
Missed that. Must have always been on the wrong side when I spoke to him after the Miss.
I get the feeling that Noye feels that he should be piloting that ship and picking the missions.
Anyone else notice that Noye's beard was different after the incursion? It went from a Goatee during the mission and ended up with full beard after we are back on the station.
He also has scars afterwards.
Missed that. Must have always been on the wrong side when I spoke to him after the Miss.
I get the feeling that Noye feels that he should be piloting that ship and picking the missions.
Would be interesting if he turned ut to be say, Annorax's grandson or such. The irony in that would be telling, considering the wife's fate...
Anyone else notice that Noye's beard was different after the incursion? It went from a Goatee during the mission and ended up with full beard after we are back on the station.
He also has scars afterwards.
Missed that. Must have always been on the wrong side when I spoke to him after the Miss.
I get the feeling that Noye feels that he should be piloting that ship and picking the missions.
Would be interesting if he turned ut to be say, Annorax's grandson or such. The irony in that would be telling, considering the wife's fate...
Despite Tom Paris referring to Annorax as "Captain Nemo," his persona was, in my mind, about as much Nemo as it was Ahab. His desire to return the accidentally eliminated the colony on Kyana Prime ( and, subsequently. his wife along with it ) was his "White Whale."
We also know that they don't really considered the various "realities" as being separate, and given the Alliance's use of time travel/dimensional interference tech in the Iconian war, its likely this is being set up for another "Sphere Builders" scenario, where we do something in a future mission that messes with the Tholians and causes their aggression in the past.
The tholians are super reclusive, but it's actually possible to figure out why they suddenly started becoming aggressive just before the iconians showed up.
If you read all the path to 2409 lore (along with the expanded pieces that cryptic used to have on their website), there's no mention at all of any tholian activities.
We have to assume that the status quo at the end of the tv and movies held - during DS9 they had an ambassador aboard the station (who was an acquaintance who once did Sisko a favor), and at the beginning of Nemesis Tal'aura was meeting with a Tholian ambassador. A tholian diplomat was even present at the Antwerp Conference. So a state of mutual respect and diplomacy.
We know from the delta recruit event that the fed, rommie, and klingon plotlines started simultaneously.
So when is the first time that a player character encounters a tholian?
The early Romulan-arc mission "The Search for New Romulus". Where, in order to secure political standing, and establish the Romulan Republic's legitimacy, your captain is forced to choose an acceptable new homeworld as soon as possible. When Tau Dewa seems promising, your first officer Tovan Khev immediately is shocked when he finds Tholians got to the planet first, and a decision is made - even though we have only been on here for half an hour, the tholians cannot be allowed to possess 'our' planet.
Tracking the tholians to their dig site, and being warned against trespassing, the captain resolves to defeat the tholians entirely, and intentionally goes down into the pit to fight them. Easily killing the band of scientists, he then attacks the ships of the tholians who appeared to rescue them.
That's right. The entire war with the tholians is kicked off when your captain - unprovoked- attacks and murders several tholian archaeologists.
The way this plotline would end in a star trek episode is with the romulan captain valiantly sacrificing himself for the sake of his people, erasing himself from the timeline to prevent the war with the tholians. He would give the alpha quadrant a chance.
We also know that they don't really considered the various "realities" as being separate, and given the Alliance's use of time travel/dimensional interference tech in the Iconian war, its likely this is being set up for another "Sphere Builders" scenario, where we do something in a future mission that messes with the Tholians and causes their aggression in the past.
The tholians are super reclusive, but it's actually possible to figure out why they suddenly started becoming aggressive just before the iconians showed up.
If you read all the path to 2409 lore (along with the expanded pieces that cryptic used to have on their website), there's no mention at all of any tholian activities.
We have to assume that the status quo at the end of the tv and movies held - during DS9 they had an ambassador aboard the station (who was an acquaintance who once did Sisko a favor), and at the beginning of Nemesis Tal'aura was meeting with a Tholian ambassador. A tholian diplomat was even present at the Antwerp Conference. So a state of mutual respect and diplomacy.
We know from the delta recruit event that the fed, rommie, and klingon plotlines started simultaneously.
So when is the first time that a player character encounters a tholian?
The early Romulan-arc mission "The Search for New Romulus". Where, in order to secure political standing, and establish the Romulan Republic's legitimacy, your captain is forced to choose an acceptable new homeworld as soon as possible. When Tau Dewa seems promising, your first officer Tovan Khev immediately is shocked when he finds Tholians got to the planet first, and a decision is made - even though we have only been on here for half an hour, the tholians cannot be allowed to possess 'our' planet.
Tracking the tholians to their dig site, and being warned against trespassing, the captain resolves to defeat the tholians entirely, and intentionally goes down into the pit to fight them. Easily killing the band of scientists, he then attacks the ships of the tholians who appeared to rescue them.
That's right. The entire war with the tholians is kicked off when your captain - unprovoked- attacks and murders several tholian archaeologists.
The way this plotline would end in a star trek episode is with the romulan captain valiantly sacrificing himself for the sake of his people, erasing himself from the timeline to prevent the war with the tholians. He would give the alpha quadrant a chance.
We also know that they don't really considered the various "realities" as being separate, and given the Alliance's use of time travel/dimensional interference tech in the Iconian war, its likely this is being set up for another "Sphere Builders" scenario, where we do something in a future mission that messes with the Tholians and causes their aggression in the past.
The tholians are super reclusive, but it's actually possible to figure out why they suddenly started becoming aggressive just before the iconians showed up.
If you read all the path to 2409 lore (along with the expanded pieces that cryptic used to have on their website), there's no mention at all of any tholian activities.
We have to assume that the status quo at the end of the tv and movies held - during DS9 they had an ambassador aboard the station (who was an acquaintance who once did Sisko a favor), and at the beginning of Nemesis Tal'aura was meeting with a Tholian ambassador. A tholian diplomat was even present at the Antwerp Conference. So a state of mutual respect and diplomacy.
We know from the delta recruit event that the fed, rommie, and klingon plotlines started simultaneously.
So when is the first time that a player character encounters a tholian?
The early Romulan-arc mission "The Search for New Romulus". Where, in order to secure political standing, and establish the Romulan Republic's legitimacy, your captain is forced to choose an acceptable new homeworld as soon as possible. When Tau Dewa seems promising, your first officer Tovan Khev immediately is shocked when he finds Tholians got to the planet first, and a decision is made - even though we have only been on here for half an hour, the tholians cannot be allowed to possess 'our' planet.
Tracking the tholians to their dig site, and being warned against trespassing, the captain resolves to defeat the tholians entirely, and intentionally goes down into the pit to fight them. Easily killing the band of scientists, he then attacks the ships of the tholians who appeared to rescue them.
That's right. The entire war with the tholians is kicked off when your captain - unprovoked- attacks and murders several tholian archaeologists.
The way this plotline would end in a star trek episode is with the romulan captain valiantly sacrificing himself for the sake of his people, erasing himself from the timeline to prevent the war with the tholians. He would give the alpha quadrant a chance.
We also know that they don't really considered the various "realities" as being separate, and given the Alliance's use of time travel/dimensional interference tech in the Iconian war, its likely this is being set up for another "Sphere Builders" scenario, where we do something in a future mission that messes with the Tholians and causes their aggression in the past.
The tholians are super reclusive, but it's actually possible to figure out why they suddenly started becoming aggressive just before the iconians showed up.
If you read all the path to 2409 lore (along with the expanded pieces that cryptic used to have on their website), there's no mention at all of any tholian activities.
We have to assume that the status quo at the end of the tv and movies held - during DS9 they had an ambassador aboard the station (who was an acquaintance who once did Sisko a favor), and at the beginning of Nemesis Tal'aura was meeting with a Tholian ambassador. A tholian diplomat was even present at the Antwerp Conference. So a state of mutual respect and diplomacy.
We know from the delta recruit event that the fed, rommie, and klingon plotlines started simultaneously.
So when is the first time that a player character encounters a tholian?
The early Romulan-arc mission "The Search for New Romulus". Where, in order to secure political standing, and establish the Romulan Republic's legitimacy, your captain is forced to choose an acceptable new homeworld as soon as possible. When Tau Dewa seems promising, your first officer Tovan Khev immediately is shocked when he finds Tholians got to the planet first, and a decision is made - even though we have only been on here for half an hour, the tholians cannot be allowed to possess 'our' planet.
Tracking the tholians to their dig site, and being warned against trespassing, the captain resolves to defeat the tholians entirely, and intentionally goes down into the pit to fight them. Easily killing the band of scientists, he then attacks the ships of the tholians who appeared to rescue them.
That's right. The entire war with the tholians is kicked off when your captain - unprovoked- attacks and murders several tholian archaeologists.
The way this plotline would end in a star trek episode is with the romulan captain valiantly sacrificing himself for the sake of his people, erasing himself from the timeline to prevent the war with the tholians. He would give the alpha quadrant a chance.
And perhaps give himself a chance at redemption.
Holy moly. I never saw that mission like that before. But I think you're right. Gosh, my Romulan Tac is a murderer....
Holy moly. I never saw that mission like that before. But I think you're right. Gosh, my Romulan Tac is a murderer....
Not really, the Tholians shoot you on sight even if your weapon is holstered. And they say "you will die before taking what is ours" in reference to the Romulan sword.
Yes in scenario gamma (the one about delaying tactics) they planned to alter the course of an asteroid to destroy an archaeological dig site on Denius III before the crew of the Yamato can begin its investigation and re-discover Iconia.
As for how they accomplished that by removing an asteroid:
Think of it like a game of pool. If you remove Ball A, it never collides with Ball B, allowing B to reach the hole in the corner (a planet in this case).
As for the second incursion:
I believe they targeted that transwarp gateway specifically. Erasing it also removed the decision that lead to its construction in the first place.
"That would have been placed after Romulus was assimilated."
Well the Borg sent a gateway to Vega before assimilating it. I don't think of those gateways as just parts of infrastructure. They also function as backdoors into enemy territory when starting an invasion.
About the snappy decision before the second incursion:
We weren't exactly in a position to crunch the numbers. The Borg were pushing us hard, and not long after the second incursion happens, our temporal shields fail.
Either we make that "leap of faith" based on half-baked calculations, or we let our temporal shields collapse and we reintegrate with a timeline that had an assimilated Romulus. It was either jump or game over. During that reintegration, the crew of our ships would've taken their respective places in that altered history. Tiaru and the Lleiset would've probably ended up being assimilated for example. As for the Krenim ship: if the incursion didn't affect its construction in the Kyana system, the ship would've continued to exist, and the Borg would've gained access to Annorax's research.
In the very end:
I believe we are still ourselves and we didn't merge with an "original". It's just that our entire history was rewritten. When we used the second incursion to (sort of) correct the mistakes from the first one, it's as if we've never gone anywhere from Kyana, and our memories and logs from the incident (except for the shielded computer core) were erased too.
About Mr. Grumpy Krenim (Noye, btw ^^):
We've altered history, Clauda took her own place in this new reality, and probably never met Noye. How can he be upset about something that never happened? They have to examine the shielded core to piece together what has changed.
That core was meant to be a time capsule. I'm guessing it already contained a large database of historical data before the first incursion happened, and everything that transpired during the mission was recorded and backed up into that core as well.
Hope I cleared it up a bit
Ah yes, my mistake. I mixed up the scenarios a bit there. Thanks for the correction.
Your explanation works for that first incursion, and in game wise I accept it. However that should have been stated in game. I think the writers just screwed up. Still, it is an acceptable remedy.
For the second incursion, what you said is what I think as well, even if Nog (or grumpy Krenim) said otherwise. We are still left with uber Borg though. I disagree with the idea that removing it also removed the decision to assimilate in the first place. Unlike Vega this was the Romulan homeworld. The Borg will not just roll up a transwarp conduit outside Romulus. The more likely scenario is that the Borg overwhelmed the Romulans and gradually (relatively speaking) assimilated Romulan space. Your explanation is possible, but I think it is less likely. That aside, we are still left with glaring issues.
My guess was that had Romulus not been destroyed, Hakeev would have kept playing with the Borg technology. He built the Transwarp gate. The Borg said, "Hey. Thanks for building a Borg Transwarp gate. We think we'll take your planet."
Likewise, Hakeev despite having Borg implants... He was never assimilated in the normal timeline(s), as I recall. Prior to Romulus blowing up, the Romulans were creating Borg implants from scratch and grafting them onto people. Again, not a huge stretch for the Borg to say, "Nice implant you got there. Let's start sending you instructions through it."
I THINK the goal of the Tal Shiar is basically a second Borg Collective, all Romulan, no assimilation of other species. And to assimilate all the Romulans whose free will is a liability. The Romulan missions pretty much suggest this.
Apparently the endgame of that is, given the resources to actually do that, the Borg can come along and absorb the Romulan Collective.
Although i liked the FE, after replaying it for several characters to grab the gear i have grown a bit tired of it.
Maybe in a month or two I'll play it again, but for now I'm a bit fed up with it.
This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
I THINK the goal of the Tal Shiar is basically a second Borg Collective, all Romulan, no assimilation of other species. And to assimilate all the Romulans whose free will is a liability. The Romulan missions pretty much suggest this.
Apparently the endgame of that is, given the resources to actually do that, the Borg can come along and absorb the Romulan Collective.
Interesting thought, but I don't agree with you on that they wanted a Romulan Collective. If Hakeev wanted that to happen, I believe he would've researched the assimilation process and neural transceivers, and probably would've hooked up either Taris or himself in the center of all of it; instead, they researched ship technologies (remember those hybrid Mogai? mmmm...), and how to create super soldiers, using cybernetic augmentation.
Btw your idea reminded me of the ENT episode "Regeneration", where
The NX-01 Enterprise and her crew has to deal with Borg debris that fell to Earth during the movie "First Contact" and was later reawakened by a research team by accident.
Maybe the Romulans lost their control over the Borg tech they had. The nanoprobes started to replicate, and once they assimilated enough equipment, they signalled the Collective, and Romulus ended up in the sorry state we found it in, twenty years later.
Either way, I don't think we'll find out, but it's fun brainstorming over it ^^
"Ad astra audacter eamus in alis fidelium."
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"To boldly go to the stars on the wings of the faithful."
Considering that the new dawn is scheduled to be released in October and each FE has a 4 week focus I'd say next week.
Officially we don't know yet.
This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
Comments
The temporal incursion must have change this.
This time the Tuterians used the Solanae technology to save themselves but they were not totally successful. They avoided the borg but they trapped themselves in the trans-dimensional pocket.
This would delete the presence of Clauda from our timeline.
So, in practice, YES, we have created the "sphere Builders". Although some detail may be wrong (did they totally avoid the borg? did the borg assimilated some of the tuterians? did the borg got some temporal technology?) I really think we have just met the "sphere builders".
If we assume that the modifications in Butterfly were necessary and destined to happen, to ensure that the Sphere Builders are created and everything leading up to Butterfly happens as we know it in Star Trek history...
If the Borg did assimilate some Tuterians and their knowledge, I think it happened prior to the movie "First Contact". You know, where a Borg sphere actually travels back in time to prevent the first flight of the Phoenix? I guess that should give us a ~ timeframe on when the Tuterians failed and/or had to flee to this transdimensional realm... or had that same accident that happened to the Solanae, whatever.
Also I'm guessing Clauda didn't just vanish. She just took her appropriate place in this altered reality. Assimilated, killed at one point, or with her people as a Sphere Builder, trapped Elements know where. It was a rather detailed character model for just one show. I think we'll see more Tuterians in the future, if not Clauda herself.
Wow so many circles...
I could be wrong of course. ^^
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"To boldly go to the stars on the wings of the faithful."
Their ties to the Krenim would explain how in the 26th century they had the ability to study timelines and the dimension jump, backfired explosion, whatever it could have been obviously changed their physiology to permanently adapt them to their new home and change their voices as well. Clauda did not have that echoey effect.
This "failed" mission could be one hell of a predestination paradox.
The Gatherers, despite their flaws, had been building colonies in systems that were otherwise unclaimed. At the end of the episode they apparently abandoned those in favor of returning to their heavily populated homeworld.
Ending their semi-exile? sure, makes sense. Giving them a voting seat on the Acamarian ruling body? GREAT! Moving all their stuff back to the HW? WTF????
My character Tsin'xing
1- Murphy’s Law tells us that anything that can go wrong will go wrong.
2- And anything that does go wrong will get progressively worse.
3- And if you survive the first two laws it’s time to panic.
My character Tsin'xing
I would like to see Daniels or Ducane (or at least a temporal ship) coming back in time to prevent the use of the Krenim weapon and then restoring everything to the state pre-Butterfly as in Storm Front
I believe we definitely saw the introduction and "origin" of the sphere builders. So what happened was they were in their other dimension hiding from the Borg when we did our incursion. The result led to their extinction, but perhaps those in hiding were not affected due to not being in our space time. Now they are stuck. Bummer. Our bad guys.
Regarding the time travel shenanigans, its bad.
First they said the plan was to alter the path of an asteroid so that it impacts Iconia. Well the timeship cannot do that, it can only remove things from the timeline. And that is what they did, it shows the weapon being fired on an asteroid resulting in its removal, which was not the goal. Oops. Assuming that asteroid never had any meaningful interactions, nothing should have changed.
As for Romulus being assimilated, I have no objections to that. Unforeseen results is what the butterfly effect is all about.
But targeting the transworp network? Rut-row, that raises some issues. They specifically said "target the transwarp network." I don't know if that took out the entire network or just that lone conduit, but either way is a problem.
1. If it was the entire network, god did they just throw a wench in the timeline. No need to go into details here.
2. If they only removed that single conduit, it should not have caused the removal of the Borg. That would have been placed after Romulus was assimilated. And it would not change whatever those mischievous Borg got their hands on in the Delta quadrant that gave them a boost. They would still be uber Borg.
3. The issue of Romulus being destroyed again afterwards has already been discussed at length.
The only way out of this is someone playing big brother Mr. Fix it who was behind the scenes countering what we did.
But then they did a poor job of that because they still allowed an entire civilization to perish.
Everyone involved in this mission sucks at their jobs lol.
I also did not like how Nog and grumpy Krenim quickly decided to fire at the conduit anyway. Isn't incursions something that should be carefully planned and calculated? And these morons just said, quick shoot something!!
Finally hopefully someone can clear up my confusion. What happened at the very end? All of our ships lost our temporal shielding. So we merged with that timeline. Why did Nog say he has no memory of making those logs? IF we merged with this "new" timeline, then we "merged" with ourselves from this timeline. Yet we have no memories of the mission, so perhaps it is more accurate to say we, as in the original us, ceased to exist? And I could not shake the feeling that it was as if this timeline version of us never went on the mission. It felt like we were about to and someone said "hey come see this, there be logs here!" Did anyone else get that impression? Contributing to this was that Mr. Grumpy did not seem affected in the least bit by the loss of his wife, because he never met her. Imagine his surprise when he reads the logs.
I just gave myself a headache.
As for how they accomplished that by removing an asteroid:
Think of it like a game of pool. If you remove Ball A, it never collides with Ball B, allowing B to reach the hole in the corner (a planet in this case).
As for the second incursion:
I believe they targeted that transwarp gateway specifically. Erasing it also removed the decision that lead to its construction in the first place.
"That would have been placed after Romulus was assimilated."
Well the Borg sent a gateway to Vega before assimilating it. I don't think of those gateways as just parts of infrastructure. They also function as backdoors into enemy territory when starting an invasion.
About the snappy decision before the second incursion:
We weren't exactly in a position to crunch the numbers. The Borg were pushing us hard, and not long after the second incursion happens, our temporal shields fail.
Either we make that "leap of faith" based on half-baked calculations, or we let our temporal shields collapse and we reintegrate with a timeline that had an assimilated Romulus. It was either jump or it was game over anyway. During that reintegration, the crew of our ships would've taken their respective places in that altered history. Tiaru and the Lleiset would've probably ended up being assimilated for example. As for the Krenim ship: if the incursion didn't affect its construction in the Kyana system, the ship would've continued to exist, and the Borg would've gained access to Annorax's research.
In the very end:
I believe we are still ourselves and we didn't merge with an "original".
About Mr. Grumpy Krenim (Noye, btw ^^):
We've altered history, Clauda took her own place in this new reality, and probably never met Noye. How can he be upset about something that never happened?
That core was meant to be a time capsule. I'm guessing it already contained a large database of historical data before the first incursion happened, and everything that transpired during the mission was recorded and backed up into that core as well.
Hope I cleared it up a bit
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"To boldly go to the stars on the wings of the faithful."
Actually it is never said that they were destroyed. All that is said is that in this timeline they failed.
I thought so at first too. But the fact that the Mirror universe will play a huge part in season 11 leads me to believe the Other is from the Mirror universe. Other Circle? Or Other Us?
Ah yes, my mistake. I mixed up the scenarios a bit there. Thanks for the correction.
Your explanation works for that first incursion, and in game wise I accept it. However that should have been stated in game. I think the writers just screwed up. Still, it is an acceptable remedy.
For the second incursion, what you said is what I think as well, even if Nog (or grumpy Krenim) said otherwise. We are still left with uber Borg though. I disagree with the idea that removing it also removed the decision to assimilate in the first place. Unlike Vega this was the Romulan homeworld. The Borg will not just roll up a transwarp conduit outside Romulus. The more likely scenario is that the Borg overwhelmed the Romulans and gradually (relatively speaking) assimilated Romulan space. Your explanation is possible, but I think it is less likely. That aside, we are still left with glaring issues.
Snappy decision: Unacceptable. Even how you phrased it, this was an irresponsible act. Everyone knows to be careful when messing with timelines. A half baked incursion should be absolutely out of the question. From a Trek perspective, game over would be preferable. Don't want the Borg to have access to the time ship? Then "blow up the damn ship!" Does not make for a good game though, I'll concede that much.
Per your explanation, we are actually not ourselves. There is prime Captain Player, and now a second Captain player from an alternate timeline. Prime Captain no longer exists. You could not say we are still ourselves when one of us is not married in this timeline. That is a life changing event. Our experiences sculpt us. Any change in our history would change who we are. The extent is unknown, but there is a change.
A thought regarding the "Shielded" core came to mind. Its not really shielded is it. The shield would be designed to prevent the data from being altered by whatever timeline you are in. That is the point I believe. She uploaded her logs and research to the core to protect it in the event that she never existed in the other timeline. But the mere fact that these logs exist in the alternate Annorax proves that the core is not protected.
This is how I gave myself the headache lol. There were two time ships basically. The one from the prime universe/timeline, and the one from this new one. After the prime's temporal shields failed, it merged with the one from the altered timeline. In doing so it altered the core of that ship.
Now you say we did not "merge" but rather took our respective place in the timeline...but there is already a version of us in the timeline. So either one of our copies ceases to exist, or there is some kind of merging (our character and Nog did mention remembering certain parts of the mission -- Nog remembered looking at power levels for example).
This would suggest that the alternate Annorax had its core overidden by the prime Annorax. Hence, it is not a shielded core after all.
I'm wondering if the other could be future guy from Enterprise after all he caused a lot of time shenanigans in the temporal war so whose to say he isnt the other the iconions are working with
Vice Admiral Volmack ISS Thundermole
Brigadier General Jokag IKS Gorkan
Centurion Kares RRW Tomalak
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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"To boldly go to the stars on the wings of the faithful."
My character Tsin'xing
The tholians are super reclusive, but it's actually possible to figure out why they suddenly started becoming aggressive just before the iconians showed up.
If you read all the path to 2409 lore (along with the expanded pieces that cryptic used to have on their website), there's no mention at all of any tholian activities.
We have to assume that the status quo at the end of the tv and movies held - during DS9 they had an ambassador aboard the station (who was an acquaintance who once did Sisko a favor), and at the beginning of Nemesis Tal'aura was meeting with a Tholian ambassador. A tholian diplomat was even present at the Antwerp Conference. So a state of mutual respect and diplomacy.
We know from the delta recruit event that the fed, rommie, and klingon plotlines started simultaneously.
So when is the first time that a player character encounters a tholian?
The early Romulan-arc mission "The Search for New Romulus". Where, in order to secure political standing, and establish the Romulan Republic's legitimacy, your captain is forced to choose an acceptable new homeworld as soon as possible. When Tau Dewa seems promising, your first officer Tovan Khev immediately is shocked when he finds Tholians got to the planet first, and a decision is made - even though we have only been on here for half an hour, the tholians cannot be allowed to possess 'our' planet.
Tracking the tholians to their dig site, and being warned against trespassing, the captain resolves to defeat the tholians entirely, and intentionally goes down into the pit to fight them. Easily killing the band of scientists, he then attacks the ships of the tholians who appeared to rescue them.
That's right. The entire war with the tholians is kicked off when your captain - unprovoked- attacks and murders several tholian archaeologists.
The way this plotline would end in a star trek episode is with the romulan captain valiantly sacrificing himself for the sake of his people, erasing himself from the timeline to prevent the war with the tholians. He would give the alpha quadrant a chance.
And perhaps give himself a chance at redemption.
Missed that. Must have always been on the wrong side when I spoke to him after the Miss.
I get the feeling that Noye feels that he should be piloting that ship and picking the missions.
Would be interesting if he turned ut to be say, Annorax's grandson or such. The irony in that would be telling, considering the wife's fate...
Despite Tom Paris referring to Annorax as "Captain Nemo," his persona was, in my mind, about as much Nemo as it was Ahab. His desire to return the accidentally eliminated the colony on Kyana Prime ( and, subsequently. his wife along with it ) was his "White Whale."
Holy moly. I never saw that mission like that before. But I think you're right. Gosh, my Romulan Tac is a murderer....
My character Tsin'xing
Not really, the Tholians shoot you on sight even if your weapon is holstered. And they say "you will die before taking what is ours" in reference to the Romulan sword.
The Tholians are the aggressors there.
My guess was that had Romulus not been destroyed, Hakeev would have kept playing with the Borg technology. He built the Transwarp gate. The Borg said, "Hey. Thanks for building a Borg Transwarp gate. We think we'll take your planet."
Likewise, Hakeev despite having Borg implants... He was never assimilated in the normal timeline(s), as I recall. Prior to Romulus blowing up, the Romulans were creating Borg implants from scratch and grafting them onto people. Again, not a huge stretch for the Borg to say, "Nice implant you got there. Let's start sending you instructions through it."
I THINK the goal of the Tal Shiar is basically a second Borg Collective, all Romulan, no assimilation of other species. And to assimilate all the Romulans whose free will is a liability. The Romulan missions pretty much suggest this.
Apparently the endgame of that is, given the resources to actually do that, the Borg can come along and absorb the Romulan Collective.
Maybe in a month or two I'll play it again, but for now I'm a bit fed up with it.
Interesting thought, but I don't agree with you on that they wanted a Romulan Collective. If Hakeev wanted that to happen, I believe he would've researched the assimilation process and neural transceivers, and probably would've hooked up either Taris or himself in the center of all of it; instead, they researched ship technologies (remember those hybrid Mogai? mmmm...), and how to create super soldiers, using cybernetic augmentation.
Btw your idea reminded me of the ENT episode "Regeneration", where
Maybe the Romulans lost their control over the Borg tech they had. The nanoprobes started to replicate, and once they assimilated enough equipment, they signalled the Collective, and Romulus ended up in the sorry state we found it in, twenty years later.
Either way, I don't think we'll find out, but it's fun brainstorming over it ^^
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"To boldly go to the stars on the wings of the faithful."
Considering that the new dawn is scheduled to be released in October and each FE has a 4 week focus I'd say next week.
Officially we don't know yet.